...and maybe not that many unskilled ones?

 

Area Attacts High Skilled Immigrants

 

Yet another sign that Daytons economic future is to be a sort of nerdistan, or, as Mauel Castells calls them, a Technopole

 

Dayton has a lot of “high-skilled” immigrants for a city its size, says a study released today by the Brookings Institution.

 

The Dayton metropolitan area has 330 high-skilled immigrants — defined as immigrants who have at least a bachelor’s degree — for every 100 “low-skilled” immigrants, according to the study. That “immigrant skill ratio” is higher than Cincinnati; Indianapolis; Madison, Wisc.; Portland, Ore.; Virginia Beach, Va.; and many other cities, according to Brookings.

 

The Brookings study can be found here

 

Ohio metro rankings, by skill ratio,  are:

 

Dayton  330

Cincy    276

Cols      219

Clev      169

Toledo  155

Akron    138

Younst  132

 

Regionally:

 

Pittsburgh    392 (wow!...the Carnegie-Mellon influence?)

Buffalo        166

Detroit        144

Louisville:    119

Indianapolis  89

 

 

 

 

That shouldn't surprise anyone in Dayton.  It's an engineering paradise.

My magic census 8-ball says they are living in Centerville/Washtington Twp, the Lexis-Nexis area, and in Beavercreek.

 

But how about that Pittsburgh number!!?    According to Brookings that ratio is the highest of the cities they looked.

 

Columbus is apparently considered a new gateway city for immigrants, too, based on the categorization set up by the study.  I guess this is in part due to the Somali influx?

Do these numbers actually mean anything in the long run?  In Dayton's case, it hasn't translated into development, economic recovery, or a growing population. 

Do these numbers actually mean anything in the long run?  In Dayton's case, it hasn't translated into development, economic recovery, or a growing population. 

 

On the contrary, they do mean something big in the long run.  Dayton and Pittsburgh both lost city and metropolitan populations but with higher percentage of highly skilled immigrants, the future for both areas look bright as higher-skilled careers = better jobs = better economy = growth.  Dayton got socked due to Delphi/GM's dismissal but the area keeps moving.

Indy doesn't look good. Cbus has a lot of East Africans and a decent sized Hispanic community that balance the effect of OSU and Battelle and the like.

On the contrary, they do mean something big in the long run.  Dayton and Pittsburgh both lost city and metropolitan populations but with higher percentage of highly skilled immigrants, the future for both areas look bright as higher-skilled careers = better jobs = better economy = growth.  Dayton got socked due to Delphi/GM's dismissal but the area keeps moving.

 

The combination of IT specialization and Wright Patterson must have something to do with this.  But also, lower rate of immigration in general. 

 

Dayton being a weak market economy, means not much of a draw for immigrants, so less in the "unskilled" category.  So what we get are the semi-skilled (the Brookings study didnt touch much on that though it mentions this) and the high-skilled. 

 

Which also means this area is generating enough tech jobs to attract a certain kind of immigrant vis a vis places like, say, Toledo and Akron, which would be the equivilant cities, perhaps, to Dayton. 

 

As an anectode, one of these immigrants "made it" enough as a enterpeneur to endow the WSU business school , AND buy the old IBM building in downtown Dayton for his offices.  Offices for his US and Indian companies (he apparently has business interests in Hyderbad or somewhere over there in the "old country")

 

...just a sign on how the Dayton area is re-orienting towards this tech sector.

 

In Dayton's case, it hasn't translated into development

 

...development happens in suburbia here, and if one is famliar enough with the metro area one can see this happening.

Do these numbers actually mean anything in the long run?  In Dayton's case, it hasn't translated into development, economic recovery, or a growing population. 

 

On the contrary, they do mean something big in the long run.  Dayton and Pittsburgh both lost city and metropolitan populations but with higher percentage of highly skilled immigrants, the future for both areas look bright as higher-skilled careers = better jobs = better economy = growth.  Dayton got socked due to Delphi/GM's dismissal but the area keeps moving.

 

It would be nice to see Dayton come back (healthy cities are good for the state overall), but my optimism is not nearly as high as yours.  I've been familiar with the Dayton area for awhile now and it's always seemed to be the least vibrant of the bigger cities in state.  Maybe the area overall is moving, but Dayton proper...

Maybe the area overall is moving, but Dayton proper...

 

Agree.  I am thinking more the area, not so much the city.  Certain parts of the metro area are doing OK, others are stagnant or in slow decline, and the city proper is in terminal decline, despite the various little gentrification moves that are going on.  Which is prettry typical for weak market cities, perhaps.  Perhaps excaberated here due to cultural factors, ie, an anti-city sensibility, combined with things one sees elsewhere like poor schools and the fallout from the mortgage crisis.   

 

The immigration thing sort of shows this since Dayton has very little immigration:  weak economy= weak immigration.  This Brookings metric just shows the influence of a certain sector of the economy weighting the "skilled" side more here, meaning this area is attractive for foreign techies, or local companies in the Professional, Scientific & Technical sector perhaps recruit overseas more?  (thinking this might have something to do with Lexis-Nexis).

 

 

Now here are anecdotal observations from someone who attempted to make a living in IT in this area.

 

A friend and I have joked for years that Dayton is "Silicon Valley Not" (borrowing the terminology of logic circuit design.)  It's like everything that SV is known for is the exact opposite here: poor wages; lack of entrepreneurial dynamism; redneck, not hip culture; REALLY bad management; peers who are abused so much that they shut down.

 

Everything about the Dayton area is socially and professionally repulsive to innovative, intelligent engineers and the like. The software groups and companies I have worked in and interviewed with around the Dayton area have been abusive, bush league  and unprofessional and pay a good margin lower than any major market. There is an endemic oversupply of techies and engineers around Dayton and this has been the case since the 1970s. My experience as a EE with 15+ years experience at the time interviewing twice at the tech crown jewel of the region, (the joint on Springboro Pike in Miami Township), was that they wanted to use me as a high tech janitor to clean up their mistakes (and not in a good highly paid way.) They, like almost every company I have interviewed with around here, demeaned me in some way.

 

The general pattern of entrepreneurial tech companies I have worked with or observed locally is: start up with bloated self image; perform poorly; go out of business or be acquired.

 

Dayton is the place where I learned to hate and to eventually get out of IT. The professional culture here in IT is crap. Most managements here bully their people or engage in Kafkaesque games of non engagement.

 

It's "Nerdistan" to be sure but not in good ways. It's Nerdistan in terms of intense competition for table scraps of jobs. If you're a degreed engineer it is an extremely unstable place to make a career.

 

Or, to be even more direct: Anyone good gets out of Dayton if they want a good career. You come here to watch your career die.

 

(Abbreviated 2-minutes hate directed at local IT scene redacted)

 

There is exactly *one* way in which the Dayton region is good for IT: company founders can pick up qualified people for relatively cheap here. So externally, to business writers and the like, the area looks much better for IT employment than it really is. The poor hiring dynamics for engineers here make job hopping very difficult so if you can keep someone steadily employed here as an engineer or developer you have them for "life". But there is a down side even to this. Experienced engineers around here tend to be so battle scarred and burned out that you wind up hiring yes-men and people that aren't at their best.

Interesting post

Do these numbers actually mean anything in the long run?  In Dayton's case, it hasn't translated into development, economic recovery, or a growing population. 

 

On the contrary, they do mean something big in the long run.  Dayton and Pittsburgh both lost city and metropolitan populations but with higher percentage of highly skilled immigrants, the future for both areas look bright as higher-skilled careers = better jobs = better economy = growth.  Dayton got socked due to Delphi/GM's dismissal but the area keeps moving.

 

It would be nice to see Dayton come back (healthy cities are good for the state overall), but my optimism is not nearly as high as yours.  I've been familiar with the Dayton area for awhile now and it's always seemed to be the least vibrant of the bigger cities in state.  Maybe the area overall is moving, but Dayton proper...

 

Least vibrant?  Dayton is certainly more "vibrant" (musically, nightclubs, etc) than, say, an Akron, Toledo, or Youngstown, which is due to being Ohio's fourth largest metropolitan area.  In terms of development, no city in the state except for the 3C's can claim economic vibrancy.  Granted, it is no secret the City of Dayton is suffering economically (stalled developments, companies leaving, apparently a "shithole" for engineers, etc) but the one thing the town does have is a vibrant culture/nightlife.

Least vibrant?  Dayton is certainly more "vibrant" (musically, nightclubs, etc) than, say, an Akron, Toledo, or Youngstown, which is due to being Ohio's fourth largest metropolitan area.  In terms of development, no city in the state except for the 3C's can claim economic vibrancy.  Granted, it is no secret the City of Dayton is suffering economically (stalled developments, companies leaving, apparently a "sh!thole" for engineers, etc) but the one thing the town does have is a vibrant culture/nightlife.

 

I agree. Of course, I am more familiar with Dayton than Toledo, Akron, or Youngstown, but I can only imagine that Akron comes close. Except for Akron's Lock 3 Park, these cities are severly lacking good public spaces, nothing like Fifth Street in Oregon, Riverscape, or 2nd Street Market (thank you Five Rivers Metroparks) always busy with people.

 

I think it is clear that Dayton's downtown and core neighborhoods (Oregon, McPhearson, Five Oaks, South Park, St. Anne's Hill, etc.) blow the cores of the other three away. Heck, downtown Dayton is more dense and impressive than downtown Columbus (but that is another issue).

 

I do not want to down Toledo, Akron, or Youngstown as I like all these cities for specific reasons, but when it comes to vibrancy and quality of the built environment, I think Dayton rises to the top. Akron may win economically...and they have Swenson's.

And not to discredit Akron but they also have Highland Square, though it isn't as large as, say, the Oregon District or Brown Street corridor, it is a wonderful neighborhood.  Toledo also has a nice warehouse district and La Viva as well.  But I do agree Dayton has a better core than the other non-3C's.

Oh, and Swenson's...yum...

And not to discredit Akron but they also have Highland Square, though it isn't as large as, say, the Oregon District or Brown Street corridor, it is a wonderful neighborhood.  Toledo also has a nice warehouse district and La Viva as well.  But I do agree Dayton has a better core than the other non-3C's.

 

I like Highland Square, but the surrounding neighborhood is rather large lot single-family, almost Bexley-esque with a couple apartment buildings. The Warehouse District in Toledo makes Downtown Toledo.

Interesting post

 

Imtersting especially when one considers the immigration numbers.

 

Ok, there are a lot of commodity engineering jobs in the Dayton area - entry level stuff. Working in Dilbert offices in teams on regimented projects.

 

There is a segment of research oriented engineering work (PhD level) in the region at places like Lexis, the base, UDRI, Wright State. (I think that explains the terrible treatment I received at one of the aforementioned joints. A bachelor's degree, even with experience, was regarded like a janitorial hire at the place I am referencing.)

 

There is very, very little around here for typical mid career engineers, for "Silicon Valley" types with bachelor's degrees. The favored hiring patterns in the area favor either cheap numbers or very high end research people. It's sort of an inversion of a bell curve.

 

Dayton is the absolute last place that can claim that it is a good place for an engineer to build his career. Those entry level people top out VERY quickly in this area, and unless they can make a quantum jump with an advanced degree, they stagnate professionally. The advanced degree people here are like preening show birds in a cage - they see low cost of living in the area so to them it's great.

 

Sorry to be beating a dead horse. It angers me when local boosters give credit that is not due.

^

I'm thinking that that might be why this place is attracting foreigners?  That there is a brain-drain for the reasons you state, so management might be hiring from overseas.  I dont deal with engineers, programmers, etc, that much,  so that world is opaque to me.  Thus,  I work off the numbers, not the sociology or cultural aspect of it, since I dont have any insider knowlege.

Frankly, the foreign workers and H1Bs will take more abuse and will work "harder" - more beads of sweat, more obvious "labor", without necessarily getting much, if anything accomplished. Deportation is a powerful incentive to comply. Managements love to see visible sacrifice and discomfort among the worker bees. Last thing they want to see is a happy engineer who isn't being punished for having "one of those fun jobs for kids where you're paid to fool around."

 

This is what I always say: guest worker usage is more about control than it is just the dollars. And Dayton high tech employers LOVE cracking that whip. Even though it drives anyone worth a crap out of the area or out of the career field (my case.)

 

Dayton has had a terrible imbalance of decent mid level technology jobs for > 30 years. Dumping a bunch of cheap, servile labor on the local market is just typical for this area. More serfs, bring it on!  :x

 

Note: if ColDayMan has a problem with my venting I will restrain it. But this topic of "goshie gee, Dayton is just peachy for technology" pushes my buttons. I think opinion and analysis from someone who has worked in that scene is worth noting.

ColDayMan isn't questioning your frustrations.  I wasn't even addressing it (I have little knowledge of the engineering field in the Dayton area so I'm not going to even touch that).  My expertise is architecture and planning.  I don't know how stating "Dayton is an engineering paradise" is going to make you all hot-and-bothered when I didn't exactly say "gee golly, you can get paid great for doing AutoCAD in Dayton compared to Palo Alto!  We're boomin' now!"  That's irrelevant to my point to begin with nor is it a discussion I even cared about (again, I'm not an engineer).  The immigrant numbers speak for themselves as Jeffrey alluded to and last I checked, the higher-skilled immigrants moving to Dayton weren't exactly working in the technology or call-center fields...

 

...unless there's some secret Google tech park in Riverside I'm not aware of...

I was respecting you as board owner to not crap all over a thread if my screeds were becoming excessive. I have said my piece and I appreciate the forum.

 

...unless there's some secret Google tech park in Riverside I'm not aware of...

 

No, it's in the Research Park (rimshot).

I have no problem with people venting their frustrations, particularly about something personal (in this case, the engineering field in the Miami Valley).  It's when it gets OVERdramatic is when it starts to become tiresome i.e. F*ck the IT and engineering related companies here

 

or

 

Or, to be even more direct: Dayton is a sh*thole for any good engineer. Anyone good gets out if they want a good career. You come here to watch your career die.

 

Again, it's totally fine (and encouraged, actually) to express your opinion, negatively or positively, but it's another thing to just go "balls out."  FYI, it'd be just as annoying to see a "Our economy is great!  Who needs Mead?  We have Hot Head Burritos!  WE'RE DOING GREAT DAMNIT!!!"

I like Highland Square, but the surrounding neighborhood is rather large lot single-family, almost Bexley-esque with a couple apartment buildings. The Warehouse District in Toledo makes Downtown Toledo.

 

...somewhat off-topic, but would those who are familiar with both Akron & Louisville say Highland Square is more akin to the Crescent Hill and Highland areas in Louisville?

 

(again thinking I really need to take that road trip to Akron and Youngstown that I put off last year)

 

 

 

Highland Square would be like the Bardstown/Bonnycastle area of The Highlands.