And the pedestrian bridge will have a different battle (so its not certain that can happen).  That will need seperate approval from the state due historic to tax credits used on Higbee. 

The meeting was a great experience, though disappointing in outcome. There were a lot of labor unions there testifying for the demolition of the Columbia, which caught me off guard. The place was absolutely packed. Most of the talking by the commission was done by Thomas Coffey who spoke passionately to save the Columbia, and Brown who made every chance he could to make the demolition seem like the best/only alternative. Lots of passionate speeches from the save Columbia side, some even have done studies as alternatives, but to no avail.

 

We have lost the Columbia building, and I know that I myself need to do a lot of soul searching as to whether or not Cleveland is developing in a way that I want to be a part of.

 

Also pardon my french, but Forbes is a douchebag. I mean really, he just is, he acts it, looks it, talks it. He is so smug, I hate him.

 

Thanks for your report Zimzolla.    What was Forbes role btw..?    Was Cimperman there saying anything?

I can't say I like a single thing that's happened in the realm of planning since Brown took the helm.  Bring back Ronayne, please!

Cleveland Landmarks panel allows demolition of Columbia Building for casino parking

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/cleveland_landmarks_panel_allo.html

 

Yeah, Brown seems reasonable, but he lacks the vision and intestinal fortitude of his more accomplished predecessors.  I don't like all the, "This is it, Cleveland doesn't deserve me" stuff every time something bad happens.  I hate this demolition as much as anybody, but if this is the thing that makes you leave the city, you're probably not as dedicated as you'd like to think.  All of downtown could be razed for a surface parking lot dedicated to Nissan Armadas and there would still be plenty to love about the city.  A city is an organic and changing thing.  I know it seems like it sometimes, but Cleveland isn't going to disappear.  There will always be a fight to fight and a city to champion.

^Thank you

I'm disappointed and I suspect alternatives were never seriously considered.  But I think the replacement will be much better than a vacant lot or a CVS.  Perfect?  Of course not, but this is hardly the worst teardown we've had recently.  CSU tore down the (more ornate) Corlett building and replaced it with a big lawn fronting Euclid.  CCF tore down the awesome OCPM tower for a surface lot.  I do hope, as someone here suggested earlier, that they at least build this casino garage to allow for a tower to be added on top, a la 515.

 

I can't say I like a single thing that's happened in the realm of planning since Brown took the helm.  Bring back Ronayne, please!

 

Strongly agree.

Well I think people also need to be reminded of the wins that have happened, which often dont seem like many.  I know there are many here in DC that have given up in a sense and had to get out.  Some would like to return but they need to see more positive change there...  So many people just view this as another example of a place where that isnt happening and where the local leadership just doesnt get it. 

 

Yeah..... the Clinic has done way, way worse.  The OCPM building was a loss of epic proportions compared to the Columbia.  The original Hathaway Brown building too.

The OCPM was definitely the worst (recently).

So I am going to look on the positive side of this and stay away from the emotional doom and gloom that some of you are projecting. As  I see the area right now it is mostly devoid of any pedestrian traffic and a place most people avoid at night. In about a year and a half people will be walking in, out and around the perimeter of that block. Also three surface parking lots will have been replaced, a century old building will be brought back from the dead and it will be lit up like a christmas tree at night. I fail to see the downside. Maybe it's just me.

Free think that is what we all want, but the queston remains, "do you need to demolish a building to accomplish that?"

 

Retrofitting and adding that building into the design scheme would have been a win-win.

Agreed. But this isn't SimCity.

^Gee I see lots of down sides.  Don't know how many people hang out around parking garages giving it street activity...plus most parkers won't even be on the street as they will use the gerbil tube even on a beautiful day (again remember who is going to be parking in this place).  Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare.  Also, the design is just hideous.  Lots of down sides...these are just a few.

Wow...MTS...maybe the board is going to be fun again

^ I have to agree with you freethink. It sucks losing Columbia I am not going to sugar coat that, but the overall impact the casino will have on the area should be great. If we come out of this with a rehabbed Stanley Block building then we'll have one more functional century-old building then we do now.

The traffic issue is the next fight I see as being important to fight. You've won the fight to stymie the organic development from E. 4th, and you'll likely win the gerbil tube fight, minimizing foot traffic. Let's not also destroy the walkable area we have near Prospect / E4th intersection by turning Prospect into an expressway for rapid evactuation by casino goers from the city. I want to see traffic dumping back out onto Ontario, South of the Prospect intersection. I don't know how, but that's what I want to see.

Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare. 

 

No moreso than making people cross Ontario.... which is, I believe, what most here would prefer to the gerbel tube.  Just saying that we can't have it both ways.

 

I just don't think this will be the pedestrian dead zone some are predicting.  The intersection will now be occupied with ground floor 'something' on all four corners.  I also don't know how many people who elect to use valet are actually going to walk upstairs and use the tube as opposed to braving the 150 or so feet on Prospect and then, gasp, crossing Ontario to the casino's main entrance.

 

As has been said, we must now move on to trying to advocate for a better design, even if it is the same concept.  No sense in crying over spilled milk.

Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare. 

 

No moreso than making people cross Ontario.... which is, I believe, what most here would prefer to the gerbel tube.  Just saying that we can't have it both ways.

 

Yes, it is moreso.  Now, people who want to walk along the street will have to cross BOTH Ontario AND many lanes of parking garage driveway traffic, which IMO is more dangerous than crossing a street (since there are no traffic lights and walk signs, just impatient drivers that want to get in or out of their parking lot).

This is the end of Canal street with the designed 6 lane valet drop off for the NOLA Harrah's casino

 

The fence along the neutral ground is only at the casino, so people will not cross Canal and walk to that entrance.

 

The front of the casino is pedestrial friendly, but not at the valet station

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=&q=new+orleans&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+Orleans,+Orleans,+Louisiana&gl=us&ll=29.950603,-90.065532&spn=0,0.02105&z=16&layer=c&cbll=29.950164,-90.06488&panoid=ac0Gh1r-P861RgG-CrERAQ&cbp=12,131.89,,0,6.12

Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare. 

 

No moreso than making people cross Ontario.... which is, I believe, what most here would prefer to the gerbel tube.  Just saying that we can't have it both ways.

 

Yes, it is moreso.  Now, people who want to walk along the street will have to cross BOTH Ontario AND many lanes of parking garage driveway traffic, which IMO is more dangerous than crossing a street (since there are no traffic lights and walk signs, just impatient drivers that want to get in or out of their parking lot).

 

Exactly..  Hardly the same thing..

Hmmm crossing at a crosswalk.....  Walking along a sidewalk that has multiple lanes interupting coming out of nowhere.

 

 

Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare. 

 

No moreso than making people cross Ontario.... which is, I believe, what most here would prefer to the gerbel tube.  Just saying that we can't have it both ways.

 

Yes, it is moreso.  Now, people who want to walk along the street will have to cross BOTH Ontario AND many lanes of parking garage driveway traffic, which IMO is more dangerous than crossing a street (since there are no traffic lights and walk signs, just impatient drivers that want to get in or out of their parking lot).

 

You would prefer a traffic light for the exit?  No way. 

 

And the comparison I was making was the current plan with the gerbil tube and the current plan without the gerbil tube.  If your concern is pedestrians (gasp) dealing with some traffic, you should not be objecting to the gerbil tube.

Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare. 

 

No moreso than making people cross Ontario.... which is, I believe, what most here would prefer to the gerbel tube.  Just saying that we can't have it both ways.

 

Yes, it is moreso.  Now, people who want to walk along the street will have to cross BOTH Ontario AND many lanes of parking garage driveway traffic, which IMO is more dangerous than crossing a street (since there are no traffic lights and walk signs, just impatient drivers that want to get in or out of their parking lot).

 

You would prefer a traffic light for the exit?  No way.

 

And the comparison I was making was the current plan with the gerbil tube and the current plan without the gerbil tube.  If your concern is pedestrians (gasp) dealing with some traffic, you should not be objecting to the gerbil tube.

 

Wow, you're good at twisting words.

 

First, I didn't say I'd prefer a traffic light.  I'd prefer not to have 4 lanes one way pulling into a parking garage.  What I was saying is that crossing Ontario at a light (with a walk sign) is easier than crossing a busy 4 lanes one-way of parking garage entrance with no traffic control.

 

Second, I said absolutely nothing (nor did Htsguy) about the gerbil tube.  But since YOU brought it up, I'm opposed to it because it's ugly and I think there's better ways of getting people from a parking garage into the casino, such as relocating where the garage is and/or using an underground walkway.

Who is regretting pushing to save that decrepit Stanley building?  I'm sure they could have worked out a design that would save the Columbia building while using the acreage taken up by the Stanley building.  Now the Stanley building is going to sit there like a large pimple.

Who is regretting pushing to save that decrepit Stanley building?  I'm sure they could have worked out a design that would save the Columbia building while using the acreage taken up by the Stanley building. 

 

Yep.  The Stanley building will need a lot of work, and I feel it will have a much harder time attracting and/or keeping tenants than the Columbia Building would have due to the fact that pedestrians are much less likely to walk down Ontario than Prospect, and that it will be a relatively small building surrounded by an ugly parking garage.

I'm feeling quite depressed this afternoon. I just can't comprehend that we are tearing down this building for a parking garage. A parking garage for the folks of Streetsboro and Madison and Lagrange. The same people who talk crap about this city any chance they get won out. Congratulations to all those who comment on cleveland.com, you are the true winners. You can now come and dump your quarters in my downtown while you laugh at what a terrible city this is from the comfort of your close parking garage and safety of your gerbil tube that "elevates" you above the dirt of the city.

 

Another fine day of Cleveland politics. Still much work to be done ahead about final designs. We lost one battle, it doesn't mean we lost the war.

Oh for the love of Christ people, stop with the "woe is me" crap!

 

If the building comes down, there are additional things we can argue against, many mentioned here.  AJ93 brought up valid points.

Plus, as mentioned time and time again, the multiple lanes of traffic in and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian night mare. 

 

No moreso than making people cross Ontario.... which is, I believe, what most here would prefer to the gerbel tube.  Just saying that we can't have it both ways.

 

Yes, it is moreso.  Now, people who want to walk along the street will have to cross BOTH Ontario AND many lanes of parking garage driveway traffic, which IMO is more dangerous than crossing a street (since there are no traffic lights and walk signs, just impatient drivers that want to get in or out of their parking lot).

 

You would prefer a traffic light for the exit?  No way.

 

And the comparison I was making was the current plan with the gerbil tube and the current plan without the gerbil tube.  If your concern is pedestrians (gasp) dealing with some traffic, you should not be objecting to the gerbil tube.

 

Wow, you're good at twisting words.

 

First, I didn't say I'd prefer a traffic light.  I'd prefer not to have 4 lanes one way pulling into a parking garage.  What I was saying is that crossing Ontario at a light (with a walk sign) is easier than crossing a busy 4 lanes one-way of parking garage entrance with no traffic control.

 

Second, I said absolutely nothing (nor did Htsguy) about the gerbil tube.  But since YOU brought it up, I'm opposed to it because it's ugly and I think there's better ways of getting people from a parking garage into the casino, such as relocating where the garage is and/or using an underground walkway.

 

I didn't twist any words.  I simply misunderstood your "since there are no....." as meaning it would be better with those signals/controls.  I think that is a reasonable interpretation of what you wrote.  I was simply trying to make a point that traffic signals at the exit to the valet station would make it less pedestrian friendly.  I would prefer a permanent stop sign.  Sorry.

 

Also, I never said you (or Htsguy) raised the gerbel tube.  Yes.... I (already in caps, no additional emphasis needed) brought it up because it seems somewhat, though not blatantly, hypocritical to throw your arms up about pedestrians having to deal with this (I suppose) never ending flow of traffic from the valet lanes and also throw your arms up about a design to give pedestrians the OPTION of crossing Ontario without having to deal with traffic.  As I have said above, my personal opinion is that the gerbil tube is the most objectionable aspect.  But I am not complaining about the valet lanes too.  I want pedestrians dodging traffic and I want traffic dodging / yeilding to pedestrians.  I think it adds some liveliness to the area ;)

What was Forbes role btw..?

 

I believe Nate Forbes was the corporate hack representing Rock Gaming.

As much as I don't like this, at least the plan got the full attention of the board and the members got a chance to really consider the ramifications.  Thats the most we could ask for; we won't like everything these guys approve.

As much as I don't like this, at least the plan got the full attention of the board and the members got a chance to really consider the ramifications.  Thats the most we could ask for; we won't like everything these guys approve.

 

Agreed. If this level of activism / scrutiny was applied to every building being considered for demo, I think the city might be more judicious in deciding what stays or goes.

Agreed (again).  We should use this as a template for what to do when (sadly, not if) the next building is threatened. 

 

As for the depressed mood I have to admit I'm in the same boat.  Feels a little like after the Indians get knocked out of a playoff series.  You know there are other fights to fight, and "there's always next year", but you can't help but need a beer and some time to shake your head.

 

Cleveland should consider adding that quote to their seal.

 

Cleveland, what's not to like?

Cleveland, there's always next year!

 

Both optimistic in their own way.

The Cleveland Restoration Society is hosting a happy hour at their Sarah Benedict house headquarteres tomorrow for the Lower Prospect Group and supporters.  Basically with the great organiziation and ourpouring of support over this, they would like to coordinate and strategize better going forward etc..... 

 

Anybody interested in being involved should join the Save Lower Prospect Group (and shame on you if you havent already)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_211966452169552&ap=1

 

So actually lots of good did come out of this!

 

Also, I heard that part of our letter was quoted by Mr. Coffey at the hearing.......  Yeah! 

Yeah, Brown seems reasonable, but he lacks the vision and intestinal fortitude of his more accomplished predecessors.  I don't like all the, "This is it, Cleveland doesn't deserve me" stuff every time something bad happens.  I hate this demolition as much as anybody, but if this is the thing that makes you leave the city, you're probably not as dedicated as you'd like to think.  All of downtown could be razed for a surface parking lot dedicated to Nissan Armadas and there would still be plenty to love about the city.  A city is an organic and changing thing.  I know it seems like it sometimes, but Cleveland isn't going to disappear.  There will always be a fight to fight and a city to champion.

 

I don't think I have to tell you that nobody here claimed this alone would make them leave the city.

 

I'll probably simmer down when the dust settles, but talking to the other kids after the meeting, I'm definitely not the only one who feels alienated by the city right now. I'm passionate about Cleveland, but much of the time it feels like unrequited love.

 

But I see this thread has taken a positive turn so I'll try to do the same.

Cool, are there transcripts of the meeting?

 

I am just so bummed that there was a law to protect the building, an outpouring of support to protect the building, yet the developer had no problem getting it knocked down.  One extra meeting, but zero changes to the building plan.

 

What else could we have done?

Cool, are there transcripts of the meeting?

 

I am just so bummed that there was a law to protect the building, an outpouring of support to protect the building, yet the developer had no problem getting it knocked down.  One extra meeting, but zero changes to the building plan.

 

What else could we have done?

 

Outside of different Leadership not a whole lot.......  There was time for dialogue, before it became public, and the city was in a good position to make some demands, but it chose to lay down and roll over ...

 

p-Pat, wasnt it you that suggested somewhere that the next group needs to be ABC/ABJ..  I think that your right there.   

yup, since this is 2011 and political contributions matter almost as much as votes, I'll scrape together cash for

ABC = Anybody But Cimperman and

ABJ = Anybody But Jackson

The city, or I should clarify... the mayor's office, went to bat for the casino because they were getting what they wanted... a temporary casino that starts the revenues coming in earlier. That's the trade off. I don't agree with their stance in the least bit, but I understand it. Such an incredible wasted opportunity.

Do I have the option of just joining the ABC group?

since the casino thread is still locked, i'll post this here.  Somebody need to push Gilbert.  Ask him how anybody can trust his word after he said the permanent casino plans would come out quickly, the permanent casino would be built in 2013, the casino would work to preserve the urban quality and weave into the developments.  he has been disingenuous throughout this whole process.

^^Of course!

I'm thinking about making t-shirts :)

 

That would mean I would have to reevaluate my stance on giving up on Cleveland.  I have a job offer from a company I love in the CLE, but it would be a bit of a career step down, a whole chunk less money, so it isn't a slam dunk right now.

 

My hope was with civic engagement, and the rallying around the downtown neighborhood, not only would the landmarks commission vote against it, but Gilbert would pull back the idea until it was something worth of a great city like Cleveland.

 

Then, man, talk about Believe in the Cleve.  I would take any pay cut to come back and be part of such a vibrant, forward thinking, and budding community.

 

Alas, what we have is Joe Cimperman, Mayor Jackson and the mayor's staff, high fiving Gilbert and the FCE crowd, and developers still rule the town.

 

I've been on this board since 2004, desperately seeking updates on the Pinnacle condo construction, but its time to at least split my time between the city I would like to move back to one day (which may only exist in my hopes), and the city I live in now, New Orleans

Also, changing the charter for the Landmarks Commission.  Since two of the non-city affiliated Commission members abstained from voting since they may have benefitted from the decision.  They should be allowed to have alternates in these cases.

"The Cleveland Restoration Society ... with the great organiziation and ourpouring of support over this, they would like to coordinate and strategize better going forward etc.....

 

I have to say that I've not been impressed in the past with their advocacy efforts ... and especially their outreach efforts toward the younger crowd, but this is so wonderful to hear, and I'm loving the dialogue on the Facebook "Save Lower Prospect" page. Which leads me to:

 

"talking to the other kids after the meeting, I'm definitely not the only one who feels alienated by the city right now."

 

I feel your pain - believe me, I do - I've lived here since before Facebook and UrbanOhio.com existed. You have an opportunity to use those tools to organize others and "be the change you want to see". I'm certainly not in agreement with the decision to demolish the Columbia, but I'm more than pleasantly surprised to see just how many people have come out and expressed their support.

Also, changing the charter for the Landmarks Commission.  Since two of the non-city affiliated Commission members abstained from voting since they may have benefitted from the decision.  They should be allowed to have alternates in these cases.

 

It probably wouldn't have mattered in this case, because the two recused members likely would have split their votes. Torres would have voted for demolition and Mason against.

From Rustwire:

 

http://rustwire.com/2011/06/09/despite-protests-cleveland-plows-ahead-with-senseless-demolition-plan/

So is there absolutely no hope now?

Willy boy, you were asking about Cimperman. He came in and basically said "I know change is hard but we cant stand in the way of progress, I support the demolition, etc."

 

Also although I am doom and gloom, I do want to say that I was speaking with some of the core members of the save lower prospect (not the founder Greg Solstis but Andrew Gotlieb who spoke on behalf of the group, and two others) and they want to take the current energy of save lower prospect and transform it into a broader historic preservation group and to create a watch list. I suggested the Walker and Weeks designed three story building next to Viking hall on the CSU campus as a great candidate.

 

And to all those who complain about us woe as me people, hey, I'm pissed, and yeah, I question Cleveland leadership and their decisions, and maybe I will leave the city (I am a college student, the world awaits me), but that doesn't mean that right now we are not dedicated and that even if we leave we won't always be dedicated in some way to Cleveland's prosperity. We lost a piece of history, it is not light matter, and give us a little time to grieve, if you don't want to hear it, why don't you log off for a couple days so we can blow off some steam and get it out.

^The building on CSU's campus does needs fighting for. From who i've talked to, its coming down. They see it as too big of an obstacle on their huge plot of land.

^The building on CSU's campus does needs fighting for. From who i've talked to, its coming down. They see it as too big of an obstacle on their huge plot of land.

I will say this - proper planning is the only way to save historic structures.  It does not make sense to me for us, as a community, to let a building sit vacant and deteriorate over many years only to get up in arms when someone comes along and wants to tear it down.  Where was everyone the last X years while this building deteriorated?  I am not making a statement of support or opposition, just pointing out facts.  Not to get off topic, but it's like Oakwood in Cleveland Heights.  The property was on the market for over a year before First Interestate came along and bought it.  If the city (or cities) had a plan in place for this property, it would have been more difficult for the change in use.

Careful what you wish for with the ABC campaign, folks.  You are never going to agree with your council rep on every single issue.  Joe C is a good man.  He has done a lot of good for Cleveland and downtown.  The DP registry would not have passed without his efforts.  My only concern is that he has bigger aspirations..... but what politician doesn't.

 

I would say the same thing about the ABJ campaign.  Just be careful what you wish for.  There has been progress under Jackson despite very difficult times.  And this is coming from someone who has had some rather heated discussions with the mayor and his administration.