May 26, 201114 yr ^The real question is, if the building saved will Gilbert let someone buy it. Or will he let it rot to spite the city, and try again in ten years
May 26, 201114 yr I don't think Dan Gilbert has any interest in seeing rotting buildings anywhere near his shiny new casino(s)
May 26, 201114 yr Did you see the rendering of the Stanley Block surrounded by the garage? Didn't look too spiffy
May 26, 201114 yr Just got back home, power was out this morning. I forgot that there was a meeting this morning about the Columbia Building and when I saw the demolition thread I got nervous to click on it and find out. Glad to see it delayed at least.
May 27, 201114 yr Channel 5's story and video http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/vote-delayed-to-tear-down-landmark-building-for-casino-garage
May 27, 201114 yr Sorry but I feel those who all of a sudden have taken an interest in the Columbia are being somewhat disingenuous. I usually try to stay optimistic about these type of dealings but I fear these delays jeopardise this project. And I fear that in 5 years I will be heading down Ontario and I will see the same horrid landscape that exists today. The Stanley will still be vacant and in worse shape, the Columbia will have ForLease signs all over it, nothing will have been built on the riverfront, the hole at the corner of Huron and Ontario will still be there and the Higbee building will be struggling. I hope those involved can find a common ground very soon.
May 27, 201114 yr Why not put the garage in that hole on Huron, and leave histoic structures alone. Do you really think property between the casino and E 4th will be a "horrid landscape"?
May 27, 201114 yr ^What I am thinking is nothing will change. I can only go by past history and the lack of interest in those properties. IMO any investment in these structures will be like pulling teeth because no one is lending money, no one. I bet we are talking 5 years before anything happens again.
May 27, 201114 yr I can find you pictures on UrbanOhio from just a few years ago and you will see the drastic changes that East 4th and Euclid Avenue have seen. A lot has happened in a short period of time. These projects might go under the radar since they aren't hundreds of million dollar projects like the Casino, but in the end, they do more and are more valuable for the city. There is no reason to believe that this area couldn't be transformed within the next 5 years (unless financing remains difficult). And im willing to wait 5 years if these building were able to be saved.
May 27, 201114 yr Did you see the rendering of the Stanley Block surrounded by the garage? Didn't look too spiffy That's an understatement. I'm pretty sure he would agree.
May 27, 201114 yr I can find you pictures on UrbanOhio from just a few years ago and you will see the drastic changes that East 4th and Euclid Avenue have seen. A lot has happened in a short period of time. These projects might go under the radar since they aren't hundreds of million dollar projects like the Casino, but in the end, they do more and are more valuable for the city. There is no reason to believe that this area couldn't be transformed within the next 5 years (unless financing remains difficult). And im willing to wait 5 years if these building were able to be saved. You may be, but I'm not. Besides the first properties for E4th were being acquired about 12 years ago, FEB was announced in 2002. Things take forever to become reality. But despite the economy Cleveland has somewhat of a roll going on. And soon we will be welcoming a lot of new visitors, we cant let things sit in disrepair as we have done in the past. The developer said all things being considered they have explored all options, I think we have to believe them at this point. They have alot at stake. As investors they are taking a big chance. And oh yeah they are saving the Stanley! So at the risk of turning this into another locked casino thread, that is my view.
May 27, 201114 yr Is the Columbia building really an "eye sore"? Is it visibly distressed or does it just have some for-lease signs on it? Honest question, I haven't walked by for a long time.
May 27, 201114 yr And im willing to wait 5 years if these building were able to be saved. You may be, but I'm not. Why? Is having a parking garage there instead better? It's not like we're forgoing anything good if the Columbia Building is saved, even if there's nothing in it for a while. Should we have just leveled E. 4th because we didn't want to wait for it to develop? Especially if a parking garage was going to replace it? And don't say it's because of the casino. The casino will be built whether or not we tear down this block.
May 27, 201114 yr Is the Columbia building really an "eye sore"? Is it visibly distressed or does it just have some for-lease signs on it? Honest question, I haven't walked by for a long time. There is a picture of it in Mayday's "observation" thread. The Columbia is in good shape. The Stanley block has some issues
May 27, 201114 yr Sorry but I feel those who all of a sudden have taken an interest in the Columbia are being somewhat disingenuous. I usually try to stay optimistic about these type of dealings but I fear these delays jeopardise this project. And I fear that in 5 years I will be heading down Ontario and I will see the same horrid landscape that exists today. The Stanley will still be vacant and in worse shape, the Columbia will have ForLease signs all over it, nothing will have been built on the riverfront, the hole at the corner of Huron and Ontario will still be there and the Higbee building will be struggling. I hope those involved can find a common ground very soon. I have a hard time believing this parking debate jeopardizes the entire casino project. And there is no debate that they can put a valet center directly across from the casino... some of us just don't believe that the Columbia building needs to come down to make the project a success. Couldn't they build a driveway of sorts (two level) along the alley between the Columbia and Stanley Block to connect to their new expanded Gateway parking garage? All I want to see is an alternatives analysis. They haven't proven that the building needs to come down to make the project work. Don't blame "preservationists" for the casino failing to adequately make their case.
May 27, 201114 yr What about putting it in the "hole" on Huron. It would literally link Phase I and Phase II. No buildings torn down, no gerbil tubes, an undeveloped property gets used....
May 27, 201114 yr I have a hard time believing this parking debate jeopardizes the entire casino project. Agreed. There is no way that Rock Ventures closes up shop and leaves after spending a hundred+ million dollars on a Cleveland Casino just because the City requires them to adopt their parking ideas to our historic infrastructure. As I've said before, either they have a plan B (and we're not asking for it), or Gilbert knew long ago this Planning Commission would okay any request, so he didn't worry.
May 27, 201114 yr What about putting it in the "hole" on Huron. It would literally link Phase I and Phase II. No buildings torn down, no gerbil tubes, an undeveloped property gets used.... the developer's key argument has been time for construction and "safe and proximate" parking, which by their definition means a walk of less than 200 feet. there are a number of open questions, and the real reason they aren't proposing tearing down the stanley, imo, which makes a lot more sense if a building has to go, is because they don't control it. they thought they did, or had at least 51% of it, but there is a dispute about who controls the building. now, they are using that to their advantage to say "hey, we're saving the stanley isn't that what you wanted?" i'm almost positive if they controlled the stanley, they would demolish it, and in the whole scheme of things, it probably is gone - the floors are rotted through, roof in poor shape, bricks are falling off, etc. - the fire department won't even enter the building. the developer wants the parking constructed asap, so instead of waiting out the stanley control decision or exploring the may garage, or the hole on huron, or expanding gateway north, or a dozen of other plausible scenarios, my feeling is that they think this will take too long by their definition. the quickest way to build this garage is to tear down every building they do own and start new construction. but i'm not convinced that the quickest construction is the best solution long term or short term for the city, and it seems that there is a better solution out there, even if that might involve a delay of a few months.
May 27, 201114 yr There was never a plan B. They just came up with the easiest and cheapest idea. (Trust me Ive pressed Brown about what some of the other options were they looked at) Look they dont even know who owns the May Co. garage! Heres the story from Green City Blue Lake: Not stuck between Rock Gaming and a hard place Submitted by Marc Lefkowitz | Last edited May 27, 2011 - 8:11am “There has not been one change in (Rock Gaming’s) position even after hearing the distinguished pleas we’ve heard today. They don’t know who owns the May Company Garage (across the street), and is it possible to do a valet service there. “They tried bringing in the big wheels, but I know the mayor. He’s a good man. I don’t think he’d want this to be rammed through. Gateway has done a lot to get down to the nitty gritty and make things happen. I don’t think they’ve been involved in the way they could.” http://www.gcbl.org/blog/marc-lefkowitz/not-stuck-between-rock-gaming-and-hard-place
May 27, 201114 yr This is some excellent news! http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/city_delays_vote_on_razing_col.html Cleveland delays vote on razing Columbia Building, deals casino developer a setback Published: Friday, May 27, 2011, 5:55 AM Updated: Friday, May 27, 2011, 9:48 AM By Dave Davis, The Plain Dealer CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The developer of a casino in Cleveland's Higbee building was dealt a setback Thursday when Cleveland Landmarks Commission deferred making a decision on the demolition of the Columbia Building. The eight-story, century-old building sits on Prospect Avenue near Second Street, in the exact spot where Rock Ohio Caesars would like to build a welcome center and valet parking operation large enough to accommodate millions of annual visitors.
May 27, 201114 yr What about putting it in the "hole" on Huron. It would literally link Phase I and Phase II. No buildings torn down, no gerbil tubes, an undeveloped property gets used.... Pat I agree that should be an option (I had advocated for that to be looked into). They could expand the Gateway North Garage to the North and South if they needed to. Even a skywalk in that spot would be much less obstrusive, and I would think that would be a very improtant link if they were truly planning to build the second phase. They do state in the article that they wanted a walkay of less than 200 feet for their high rollers...?
May 27, 201114 yr I hadnt realized that the PD article had not been posted yet (you guys are slow today)... Anyway congrats to anyone that wroite a letter and got involved, just shows you can have an impact! :clap: "I don't think in the five years I've been here that we've had this number of people come in and talk with this passion, in tears," Coleman said, referring to about a dozen people who spoke against demolition. The commission staff recommended that the request for demolition be turned down based criticism in more than 30 telephone calls and e-mail messages received before the meeting. Staff member Donald Petit told the commission that the welcome center plan, as currently designed, didn't justify the taking of the Columbia Building. Coleman criticized the developer for not getting community input on its plan. "It's imperative that everyone be at the table," Coleman said. "We have to have more of a dialogue." .
May 27, 201114 yr Props to Urbanohio.com for educating people like myself, and for being a resouce for how to get things done. Obviously more than a few of the 30 e-mails and phone calls were from our members. (I thought it was more) NOW, WE HAVE TO KEEP UP THE PRESSURE AND SPREAD AWARENESS!!! Does anyone think that Great Lakes Brewery, or any of the chefs on E. 4th would be open to hosting a benefit for the "save lower prospect" movement, or is it too dicey for them to go against the casino?
May 27, 201114 yr There seems to be some conflicting reports about the due diligence performed. You can infer from the GCBL article that practically zero diligence was done on alternative plans. But the PD article's direct quote from Commissioner Brown says that "hundreds of hours" were spent exploring other alternatives. Someone is obviously lying. FWIW, I emailed Donald Petit this morning in support of saving the Columbia and I got a "read receipt" within 5 minutes.
May 27, 201114 yr There seems to be some conflicting reports about the due diligence performed. You can infer from the GCBL article that practically zero diligence was done on alternative plans. But the PD article's direct quote from Commissioner Brown says that "hundreds of hours" were spent exploring other alternatives. Someone is obviously lying. FWIW, I emailed Donald Petit this morning in support of saving the Columbia and I got a "read receipt" within 5 minutes. Yeah I know. Brown "isnt talking" as far as what some of the other options were. Im really getting that Rock has them wrapped around their finger and the city just wanted everything to go smoothly and easily for Rock. Im also getting that there really wasnt much in the way of dialogue with Gateway or anybody else (as there should have been if there was much in the way of due diligence). It seems Rock decided what they wanted to do (which Im guessing was the easiest) and went forward. I think Brown and planning had thrown some measures out there, like having a drop off lane on Prospect or Ontario, but thats about it from anything that I have heard from the city. Again, Brown refuses to go any further.
May 27, 201114 yr Also...I commented before about the weak article from Steve Litt (speculating that some editor at the PD was on his back because the tone was so unlike him...OK the conspiracy theorist in me)....but I also think it is strange that you hear very little from the principals at the Gateway Neighborhood Assoc. I have read some bland comments, but nothing that suggests they are heavily involved. Maybe I am wrong.
May 27, 201114 yr There's a poll right now, vote! http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/should_the_columbia_building_c.html
May 27, 201114 yr Bob Brown (planning director) is: [email protected] All I could get for Jennifer Coleman (chairperson) was: [email protected] Councilman Brancatelli: [email protected] Robert Keiser (secretary): [email protected] Here are the contact e-mails from the Horesehoe Casino thread. Stay thirsty, my friends... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 27, 201114 yr If there's any meeting or movement, I will attend. And the determining meeting will be Thursday June 9, 9:00 am in the 5th Floor Conference Center, Room 514 City Hall
May 27, 201114 yr Here is what I posted at cleveland-dot-bomb in response to the ignorant comments which followed the above poll.... It's a very solid building, built in an era when building were built to last. And it was renovated only several years ago. I went to school in that building 20 years ago when it was Dyke College, and it was solid then. Progress isn't demolishing substantial, solid buildings when other alternatives may exist, such as replacing the crumbling parking deck across Ontario from the casino. Or filling in "the hole" where the Witness banner once hanged. Or building the so-called "welcome center" where the ramp from Huron to Tower City parking stood. Progress is moving forward while retaining a sense of your urban self. Cleveland isn't some transient western or sun-belt city filled with fast-food architecture. It's an historic city with scars that tell stories of who it is, where it's been and why it has so much great character. It is a city where generations have lived, worked, fought, died and raised new generations. And that character is reflected in its buildings, including those like the Stanley and the Columbia. We have lots of open spaces and other options to tearing down the Columbia. Use them. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 27, 201114 yr Hmm, you can vote more than once..... edit: oops, now I'm getting blocked! There's a poll right now, vote! http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/should_the_columbia_building_c.html
May 27, 201114 yr This should be the facebook page (I always have trouble posting facebook links...) http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_211966452169552
May 27, 201114 yr This should be the facebook page (I always have trouble posting facebook links...) http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_211966452169552 Thats right. I posted it a couple of pages back.
May 27, 201114 yr That Cleveland.com poll will not turn out good. And if it would have said: "vote yes to tear down the building and get a free chalupa" It would have been completely over... We can still input comments to counter ignorance of many levels.
May 27, 201114 yr I just called the reporter, and asked why the poll said, "Should the Columbia building come down to make way for the casino" and not, for a garage for the casino. He said we would take a look at it.
May 27, 201114 yr I just called the reporter, and asked why the poll said, "Should the Columbia building come down to make way for the casino" and not, for a garage for the casino. He said we would take a look at it. Good point! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 27, 201114 yr A better poll would have been: (a) the casino developers should be allowed to demolish the Columbia building to provide convenient parking options (b) the casino developers should not be allowed to demolish the Columbia building to provide convenient parking options © the casino developers should be made to sufficiently demonstrate there are no other viable alternatives to convenient parking options and, only then, be allowed to demolish the Columbia building I would have voted ©
May 27, 201114 yr I am glad they put up the article, and now they have a poll. However, I have a certain connection that tells me that this deal is almost for sure happening. With the medical mart/convention center the need for parking is going to skyrocket. I know they are concerned, but I think we need to put pressure on them to show us all of those "options" they studied.
May 27, 201114 yr ^While I oppose this, I also have no doubt it is going to happen due to the support of the mayor. There will of course be a need for additional parking, it just can be done SO MUCH BETTER. Also, and I don't know if this was your point or not, this garage will do little to relieve MM parking issues, since it appears that people who must have this parking are the types who cannot walk more than a 100 yards, even in good weather, from their parking spot to the venue.
May 27, 201114 yr ^that is why I'll be supporting someone other than Jackson next election. Where is Cimperman on this?
May 27, 201114 yr Then Cimperman isnt your man. He's supportive of the demolition, but also the owner of the Columbia was a campaign contributor. He's quite the sell-out.
May 27, 201114 yr Isnt this garage only like 350 spaces. Also there are 380 people already in that facebook group! And there are plenty of other possibilities for the garage. Something like this could possibly be worked out. The pink is a walkway along the outside of the garage with windows. This way people can walk in a clean safe environment to get to the welcome center and eventually the casino.
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