Look at that hole right there.  Build a huge sportsbar, facing the Q and The Jake, and put 20 freaking stories of parking above it.  Have the VIP garage and entrance be below the bar and it can literally connect to phase I and phase II

20 stories?  A bit extreme IMO.  That would be a tight circle getting in and out.  Would be dizzying.

 

I think the reality of it is that the developers would 'prefer' to save that lot and the one CO has marked in red for 'future development'.... whatever that means, I don't know.  But there definitely is the potential for something on each of those lots which would make us all very happy.

 

I've wondered if you could add onto the garage by using the blue footprint and extending it all the way to 4th (taking out Cleats and the storage building).

Yeah, you could knock down all sorts of stuff for a garage.  But is that any better than knocking down the Columbia?

^I would say so. The Columbia is taller/denser and turned inward toward Prospect, creating a complete street envelope. Closing off High Street and expanding the existing garage north to the rear of the buildings fronting Prospect would be much less intrusive to the urban environment.

 

This is very much the same reason I would be willing to give up the Stanley for the Columbia. The Stanley is isolated by itself Ontario across from the dreary street presence of the Landmark complex. Prospect is more important to maintain.

question?    Has anyone considered the possibility of moving the Columbia Building and The Stanley Block to new locations?  i know that the Candy Factory building was moved  to make way for Petco Park in San Diego.    If this could happen I would align it with East 4th street and Prospect. Continuing the historic nature of The Gateway District all the way to The Q. The Stanley Block as well moved and let the Rock Caesars Gaming develop that entire block without obstacles yet preserving Cleveland's historic buildings

They way they were built would make moving difficult, and likely very very expensive

^Perhaps you could save the stone facade on the Stanley.

I would be afraid of losing the whole block if you took out cleats. Those buildings facing Prospect are far to valuable in my opinion to lose. Same with Columbia building though.

any updates on the columbia building?  June 9th is coming up quickly for landmarks to consider demolition again. 

 

have any meetings taken place?  has anyone seen any alternatives suggested?

any updates on the columbia building?  June 9th is coming up quickly for landmarks to consider demolition again. 

 

have any meetings taken place?  has anyone seen any alternatives suggested?

 

I was at a portion of the city planning commission this morning. Nothing related to the casino was on the agenda however Bob Brown mentioned that there was a meeting yesterday of about 20 (he didn't mention who was there or whether it was public) that looked over alternatives, they didn't find anything that was feasible but they're continuing to look.

 

There's at least 1 alternative listed at the Save Lower Prospect Ave Facebook group - http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_211966452169552

any updates on the columbia building?  June 9th is coming up quickly for landmarks to consider demolition again. 

 

have any meetings taken place?  has anyone seen any alternatives suggested?

 

I was at a portion of the city planning commission this morning. Nothing related to the casino was on the agenda however Bob Brown mentioned that there was a meeting yesterday of about 20 (he didn't mention who was there or whether it was public) that looked over alternatives, they didn't find anything that was feasible but they're continuing to look.

 

There's at least 1 alternative listed at the Save Lower Prospect Ave Facebook group - http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_211966452169552

 

Yes, there was a meeting between the Landmark Commission members, the Historic Gateway staff, representatives of the Cleveland Commission, and representatives of Rock Gaming and their architects to examine other alternatives for parking that would spare the Columbia Building and to determine if the demolition of the Columbia Building is the best solution. 

 

This is what the Landmark Commission suggested when they tabled the discussion at the previous meeting.  I have a feeling the determination is hinging on finding this alternative, and the fact that you say they didnt find anything that was feasable isnt a good sign...  Although I think Rock gaming and City Planning/ the Mayor have predetermined that there were no alternatives.

Why dont they just build the garage on the site for the main casino? Then when time comes around they can build the casino on top of it. Kind of like a 515 Euclid thing.

I think they would.

 

But the high stakes/vip area will be in and will remain in the Higbee building.  Thats mainly what the (close) garage and ped bridge are for.  Nothing a valet lane on Prospect couldnt solve (kinda like they already have in fron of tower city on Prospect) 

Although I think Rock gaming and City Planning/ the Mayor have predetermined that there were no alternatives.

 

 

:shoot: Predetermined.  :whip:

 

 

 

Everybody needs to keep emailing and calling.

 

I suggest everyone here call Dan Musson. 216-664-2575

 

 

Who is Dan Musson?

Dan Musson is the Historic Preservation Compliance Officer at City of Cleveland.  Why do you suggest contacting him.. now?

 

Im thinking City of Cleveland = Under FCE/Gilbert's thumb.

 

Can there be a legal challenge to the walkway, since it could be considered part of the casino, and it goes beyond the areas spelled out in the constitution

Can there be a legal challenge to the walkway, since it could be considered part of the casino, and it goes beyond the areas spelled out in the constitution

 

Im sure its being explored.  The Higbee Building is on the National Register of Historic Places but that doesnt afford it much protection in this instance, and it doesnt have to go through 106 review. 

But.... because it has recieved historic tax credits there are some hoops that need jumping through and they will have to pursue an amendment through the Ohio Historic Preservation Office which will have futher review of the project. 

I was suprised by how bungled the New Orleans downtown casino was handled.

The temporary casino only lasted a few months before they shut it down, laid everyone off, including construction workers

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/02/business/a-big-casino-wager-that-hasn-t-paid-off.html?src=pm

Dan Musson is the Historic Preservation Compliance Officer at City of Cleveland.  Why do you suggest contacting him.. now?

 

 

I was given his name and number by a city planner who works for the city.

He is also on the landmarks comission and has a vote.

A new analysis from KA Architects tries to close the door on saving the Columbia Building as part of a casino visitor center

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/06/a_new_proposal_from_ka_archite.html

From Litt:

 

A new analysis from KA Architects tries to close the door on saving the Columbia Building as part of a casino visitor center

Published: Wednesday, June 08, 2011, 4:10 PM    Updated: Wednesday, June 08, 2011, 4:24 PM

Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer.

 

A new design analysis from KA Architects of Cleveland is part of an effort to show how the landmark Columbia Building in the Gateway neighborhood should be demolished to make way for a visitor center for the new Rock Gaming LLC casino in the nearby Higbee Building.

 

The analysis is disappointing, but predictable.

 

A pivotal vote on the fate of the visitor center and the Columbia Building is scheduled for Thursday at the third meeting of the Cleveland Landmarks Commission on the topic. The meeting is scheduled for 9 a.m. in Room 514 at Cleveland City Hall.

 

In recent weeks, the city's Planning Commission and Design Review Committee gave the nod to the Rock Gaming proposal for its visitor center. Rock Gaming now needs approval from Landmarks before it can meet a self-imposed deadline of June 15 to start demolition in preparation for the visitor center.

 

The company's preferred plan calls for a valet and parking facility that would turn most of the block on the southeast corner of Prospect Avenue and Ontario Street into a zone dominated by a new garage connected to the Higbee Building with an overhead walkway.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/06/a_new_proposal_from_ka_archite.html

^Ha, you're 11 seconds too slow!

 

Pretty good piece by Litt.  Doesn't pull many punches this time, both in regards to the Casino and also when referencing the design processes for other projects.

i like how he jammed the interbelt into it

Suprise the (not Cleveland) Plain Dealer editorial board is advocating for knocking down the Columbia

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/06/tough_call_on_1908_landmark_sh.html

 

I love how they always tuck into stories that the building has been vacant for "years", implying decades.

I love how they always tuck into stories that the building has been vacant for "years", implying decades.

 

I totally agree.  I emailed the writer this morning and chided him on that exact point.

I certainly am no huge fan of the PD editorial board and I agree that the 'vacant' quote is misleading, but I do agree with the following (which is why I am, for the most part, indifferent on this issue):

 

The 1908 reinforced concrete structure, designed by Ohio architect M.E. Wells, is good-looking, but hardly remarkable.

 

*  *  *  *  *

 

By all means, city officials should keep prodding Rock Ohio Caesars to come up with plans that fit in architecturally with the Historic Gateway neighborhood, that incorporate the more significant Stanley Block building and that create buzz -- and pedestrians -- on Cleveland streets. But preserving the past should not trump building for the future.

 

I realize that some consider this position short-sighted.  Perhaps that is true (again why I am indifferent).  But I don't think the issue is so one-sided as many on here believe.  I think the 'hope' for lower Prospect is speculative at best.  And I also don't think that this ruins the potential of lower prospect either.  Honestly, more the the demo of the Columbia building, I don't like the skywalk.

I certainly am no huge fan of the PD editorial board and I agree that the 'vacant' quote is misleading, but I do agree with the following (which is why I am, for the most part, indifferent on this issue):

 

The 1908 reinforced concrete structure, designed by Ohio architect M.E. Wells, is good-looking, but hardly remarkable.

 

*  *  *  *  *

 

By all means, city officials should keep prodding Rock Ohio Caesars to come up with plans that fit in architecturally with the Historic Gateway neighborhood, that incorporate the more significant Stanley Block building and that create buzz -- and pedestrians -- on Cleveland streets. But preserving the past should not trump building for the future.

 

I realize that some consider this position short-sighted.  Perhaps that is true (again why I am indifferent).  But I don't think the issue is so one-sided as many on here believe.  I think the 'hope' for lower Prospect is speculative at best.  And I also don't think that this ruins the potential of lower prospect either.  Honestly, more the the demo of the Columbia building, I don't like the skywalk.

 

Hey Hts, don't you think that after the success of E. 4th, that retail wouldn't logically spill out along lower Prospect?

and at the end of the day it's not about "preserving the past" its about allowing lower prospect to continue a mixed use model that encourages people to use and live in the city and not creating a two block auto oriented dead zone for people who want to stop in for a couple hours and leave. Mixed use is "building for the future"... not lining our streets to make things easiest for temporary guests.

I certainly am no huge fan of the PD editorial board and I agree that the 'vacant' quote is misleading, but I do agree with the following (which is why I am, for the most part, indifferent on this issue):

 

The 1908 reinforced concrete structure, designed by Ohio architect M.E. Wells, is good-looking, but hardly remarkable.

 

*  *  *  *  *

 

By all means, city officials should keep prodding Rock Ohio Caesars to come up with plans that fit in architecturally with the Historic Gateway neighborhood, that incorporate the more significant Stanley Block building and that create buzz -- and pedestrians -- on Cleveland streets. But preserving the past should not trump building for the future.

 

I realize that some consider this position short-sighted.  Perhaps that is true (again why I am indifferent).  But I don't think the issue is so one-sided as many on here believe.  I think the 'hope' for lower Prospect is speculative at best.  And I also don't think that this ruins the potential of lower prospect either.  Honestly, more the the demo of the Columbia building, I don't like the skywalk.

 

Hey Hts, don't you think that after the success of E. 4th, that retail wouldn't logically spill out along lower Prospect?

 

Perhaps.  Like I said, it is speculative (which certainly does not mean 'out of the question').  But I think it more likely that it 'spill out' onto Euclid and/or E 4th south of Prospect.  And, again, I think we disagree on the impact of this welcome center because I don't believe it kills the possiblity of your vision of retail along lower Prospect from coming to fruition... it 'may' even give it the necessary kick in the arse.

Live updates from meeting via Ashley Shaw on twitter:

 

http://twitter.com/#!/AshleyShaw

The other side of this whole issue is the design of the parking garage and retail space.  I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but I would be less resistant to the proposed demos if the garage design/renderings weren't so pathetically bland and cheesy.

^^Very informative!

Its coming down :(

Close vote.  I like the condition they placed on the demolition.  Smart.  Shows some foresight.

Its a motherf*cking parking garage and skywalk

 

Nothing is smart about it

The other side of this whole issue is the design of the parking garage and retail space.  I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but I would be less resistant to the proposed demos if the garage design/renderings weren't so pathetically bland and cheesy.

 

to be honest, you can't expect much else from KA.. thats what their role is in this. though it is always possible they won't be involved with the final design, thats not something we know at this point. (BTW, they are also the ones doing the renderings/concept drawings for the actual casino.. given a good budget they can make nice work, but not great)

 

This is one of the fucking retarded things this city does to get me angry and push me away. Its abuse cause they know I wont leave.

It's more frustrating because the city actually had some leverage on this one.  The developer wasn't going to walk away and not build his casino.

I think its time to give up on Cleveland

As I've said, this is probably the last straw for me. It's clear who runs this city.

The other side of this whole issue is the design of the parking garage and retail space.  I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but I would be less resistant to the proposed demos if the garage design/renderings weren't so pathetically bland and cheesy.

 

to be honest, you can't expect much else from KA..

 

I suspected as much.  So Rock Gaming, if you're going to knock stuff down, at least hire someone better than a strip mall/local school designer to make it easier to swallow.

In commercial development the pattern seems to be "wait, wait, hurry up, wait, wait, hurry up".  This major change to a major gateway to the city seems to be "hurry up, hurry up" with little discussion of options, etc.  While I love to experience some sense of "hurry up" in this town, this is a sensitive issue with many repercussions.  While we have this Kasich delay, can't a breath be taken and options be explored.  This would include the design of the parking garage.  (This town has the idea the a garage has to look like a garage; I have looked at garages to other cities for the past 25 years and trust me, they don't have to.  The garage rendering offered is generic and could be dropped down from anywhere.  A sexy skywalk, ala the recent pedestrian bridge designs at the harbor and UC, would take some of the sting out.  And, while thrilled that the Higbee building will be utilized; what happened to Phase Two that it is being pushed back to 2015?  This really diminishes the impact of a casino in Cleveland.  I guess it is back to "wait, wait" for that really visual improvement to downtown and its gateway.

Wow, I just read the above posts that came in while i was hunting & pecking my post (& talking on the phone).  Mine has become moot, so never mind.

Its a motherf*cking parking garage and skywalk

 

Nothing is smart about it

 

If you knew the demo was going to be approved, you would not have placed the condition on it that the project actually has to be moving forward before the demo takes place?  That's an odd position to take.

 

 

I think its time to give up on Cleveland

 

Please leave the lights on when you go.  I plan on staying.

Jeff5112, your post isn't moot.  This battle is lost so we definitely need to move on to the next one and be up Rock Gaming's a@@ about how the garage and pedestrian bridge are designed.  Getting a better designer on board would be a good start. 

The meeting was a great experience, though disappointing in outcome. There were a lot of labor unions there testifying for the demolition of the Columbia, which caught me off guard. The place was absolutely packed. Most of the talking by the commission was done by Thomas Coffey who spoke passionately to save the Columbia, and Brown who made every chance he could to make the demolition seem like the best/only alternative. Lots of passionate speeches from the save Columbia side, some even have done studies as alternatives, but to no avail.

 

We have lost the Columbia building, and I know that I myself need to do a lot of soul searching as to whether or not Cleveland is developing in a way that I want to be a part of.

 

Also pardon my french, but Forbes is a douchebag. I mean really, he just is, he acts it, looks it, talks it. He is so smug, I hate him.