We have nothing against the city, nor do any of the parents in our neighborhood. 

Agreed, I think that's more our parent's generation that has a problem with the city than those of us with kids. I still recall my father being horrified that we looked at apartments near Shaker Square. "Why would you want to live that close to the city?"

We have nothing against the city, nor do any of the parents in our neighborhood. 

Agreed, I think that's more our parent's generation that has a problem with the city than those of us with kids. I still recall my father being horrified that we looked at apartments near Shaker Square. "Why would you want to live that close to the city?"

 

I think the disconnect comes from how strictly we're defining 'downtown'. If we're defining it as the area around public square / warehouse district, maybe out to E12th, then I'm probably not coming down much with the kids at all. The examples Jam and MayDay and some others gave were great experiences, and they also appeared to be memorable because of the singularity of the moment. I've brought 2 of my 3 downtown, usually related to another event (i.e. Indians game, or taking them to the Science Center, show at PHS), but I'm not coming down with them more than a couple times a year.

 

If we're expanding the scope of the city, though, I'm much more of a frequent visitor to UC, as the kids all love the Children's Museum, Natural History Museum, and the Botanical Gardens, specifically, and the other attractions on more limited bases.

 

All in all, we're probably coming into the city of Cleveland once every month or two, but into downtown on a much more limited scale.

 

Edit: also, I'd point out what parents of smaller kids already know, i.e. that the number of visits will likely go up as the kids get older, given I don't have to worry about three little kids running in three different directions all at once at an intersection with heavy traffic.

When I took my poll, I specifically said downtown, but included Ohio City and Tremont in that as well and defined it as such for the poll takers. UC would not count.

I will say that there is a serious void of green space downtown (the area between Lakeside to Chester and E. 12th to W. 10). It would be nice to have a single swingset within walking distance to take my 2 year old (we live in the Warehouse District).  We currently have to get into the car and drive to Edgewater or I take her to 21st and Abbey occasionally. Even then, the swingsets are poorly maintained. We really prefer to go to Lakewood park. They have a ton of swingsets and open spaces but doesn't that defeat one of the purposes of living downtown? To be less car dependent? It's currently one of the reasons my wife wants to move out of downtown. It is completely non kid friendly on a day to day basis. Downtown is never going to feel like a true big city unless they start putting in more amenities for the kids. I think RnR was questioning whether they have story time or equivalent for the kids at the main library. The answer is no. They have absolutely zero children activities for the kids.

Thank you. Apparently we're just the parents of coddled brats because they want swingsets and kiddie story time and play areas at the library.

 

Downtown is going to have to change if they want to draw families there. You can't just say oh, they're all just thinking wrong and their kids are spoiled and they're evil and they hate Cleveland and they're afraid of their own shadow, it's just not representative of the real reasons.

Thank you. Apparently we're just the parents of coddled brats because they want swingsets and kiddie story time and play areas at the library.

 

sounds about right.

RnR, it's not that my child is spoiled, I am. I want the same amenities for my child that I have downtown. My wife and I can walk to over 100 restaurants within a mile, numerous concert venues, all three sports arenas etc.  I could go on and on. However, when it comes to my child, it's a completely different story. Downtown is  developed to serve the needs of those twenty one and over. Eventually, I'm going to have to sacrifice my wants and needs for sake of my child because downtown is so non kid friendly. Obviously, I'm not talking about a special trip downtown where there are a lot of things to do and see. It makes me really sad and as much as I want to stay downtown, I can't.  Not in its present state. Unfortunately, I don't see anything changing in the next few years.

Thanks stpats. I believe your comment should be directed towards clefan, not me, as you and I are in agreement.

Thank you. Apparently we're just the parents of coddled brats because they want swingsets and kiddie story time and play areas at the library.

 

sounds about right.

 

Wait a second, you're calling kids spoiled brats becasue they want swingsets and story times at the library.  What are you talking about.  If you're going to make a statement like that, you need to back it up.  Maybe you consider plopping your kid down infront of the TV all day raising children, but it's not.  These people who live dt don't have yards for their own swingset, so it should be a priority for the parks.  Getting in a car to drive to a playground in my book is absurd. 

 

Maybe we are getting off topic, but a blanket statement like that needs clarification.  I hope we are just misunderstanding the statement. 

I think that's exactly what clefan is saying. Because my toddler isn't agog at looking at buildings or playing in a plain concrete jungle like the pier, he is not creative and neither am I and we are just lame. Perhaps clefan could redesign the children's museum in UC as well. Just a bunch of empty floors of an empty building, because otherwise the kids are just being coddled and silly.

I will say that there is a serious void of green space downtown (the area between Lakeside to Chester and E. 12th to W. 10). It would be nice to have a single swingset within walking distance to take my 2 year old (we live in the Warehouse District).  We currently have to get into the car and drive to Edgewater or I take her to 21st and Abbey occasionally. Even then, the swingsets are poorly maintained. We really prefer to go to Lakewood park. They have a ton of swingsets and open spaces but doesn't that defeat one of the purposes of living downtown? To be less car dependent? It's currently one of the reasons my wife wants to move out of downtown. It is completely non kid friendly on a day to day basis. Downtown is never going to feel like a true big city unless they start putting in more amenities for the kids. I think RnR was questioning whether they have story time or equivalent for the kids at the main library. The answer is no. They have absolutely zero children activities for the kids.

 

I disagree that is truly non kid friendly.  However, I think that developers are missing a key component of city living by not building housing that would entice parents to stay closer to the city center.  Nor are we building not only smaller kid friendly "amenities" or activities for overall multi generational family entertainment.  (Examples:  A playground;  A putt-putt/miniature golf course;  Dog Park;  Water features;  Bike/Running trails, etc.)

 

Thank you. Apparently we're just the parents of coddled brats because they want swingsets and kiddie story time and play areas at the library.

Downtown is going to have to change if they want to draw families there. You can't just say oh, they're all just thinking wrong and their kids are spoiled and they're evil and they hate Cleveland and they're afraid of their own shadow, it's just not representative of the real reasons.

 

Who is saying that?  Please, we're all just offering different opinions of what DT for a child is like for a child based on personal experience.

 

MTS,

Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to say. The few families that do live downtown are all leaving because the lack of amenities that you mentioned. I was hoping that by the time my wife and I had children, city hall would realize some of the things missing to entice families to move and stay downtown. To me, its a lack of vision and yet seems so simple. So away I go to the suburbs. House hunting starts tomorrow. I will probably cry myself to sleep tonight.

MTS,

Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to say. The few families that do live downtown are all leaving because the lack of amenities that you mentioned. I was hoping that by the time my wife and I had children, city hall would realize some of the things missing to entice families to move and stay downtown. To me, its a lack of vision and yet seems so simple. So away I go to the suburbs. House hunting starts tomorrow. I will probably cry myself to sleep tonight.

 

I wouldn't say that.  I have one cousin in the WHD w/children.  Granted the kids are older than your child, they have no plans to move.  They moved into DT from a nearby neighborhood.

It would definitely be great if there were more child-rearing infrastructure downtown to make downtown living more viable for young families.  I'd guess that a playground would be a great community-builder downtown.  I'm not sure if attracting day-trippers with young kids is really such a priority, though, given the alternative, top-level attractions in the city (University Circle, zoo).  Sometimes I wonder if we want our downtown to be too many things.

MTS,

Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to say. The few families that do live downtown are all leaving because the lack of amenities that you mentioned. I was hoping that by the time my wife and I had children, city hall would realize some of the things missing to entice families to move and stay downtown. To me, its a lack of vision and yet seems so simple. So away I go to the suburbs. House hunting starts tomorrow. I will probably cry myself to sleep tonight.

 

There are family friendly nabes close to downtown, you don't need to move to the burbs.

"Thanks stpats. I believe your comment should be directed towards clefan, not me, as you and I are in agreement."

 

RnR,

 

I wasn't necessarily responding to your post, I was continuing on from It. I hope CleFan's post was trying to be funny. Otherwise, it was just rude. I was just stating that I want the same amenities for my child and the same proximity as I have by living downtown. I don't think that has anything to do with our children, it has to do with us. Who doesn't want the park to be your back yard, the pool to be down the street? We bought our condo for us and were hoping the day to day amenities that kids in the burbs enjoy (swing sets, slides, wading pools, etc) would follow once we had kids.  Sadly it has not.

 

"I wouldn't say that.  I have one cousin in the WHD w/children.  Granted the kids are older than your child, they have no plans to move.  They moved into DT from a nearby neighborhood."

 

MTS,

 

It's really obvious with younger children (2-5 years old). My older nephews love it down here. Also, I'm being a bit overly dramatic about moving to the suburbs. Tremont, O.C. and Shaker Hts are very much a possibility.

 

This discussion is sort of rediculous but if you think adding swing sets to any downtown will make it vibrant or successful is extremely debatable. I live in one of the most vibrant downtowns (San Francisco) and you would be hard pressed to find anything close and we are packed every day of the year. If I had any involvement with downtown Cleve the last group I would be worried about is attracting children, SF focuses on Adults (who also don't worry about paying for parking) and they drag the kids along, period.

I will say that there is a serious void of green space downtown (the area between Lakeside to Chester and E. 12th to W. 10). It would be nice to have a single swingset within walking distance to take my 2 year old (we live in the Warehouse District).  We currently have to get into the car and drive to Edgewater or I take her to 21st and Abbey occasionally. Even then, the swingsets are poorly maintained. We really prefer to go to Lakewood park. They have a ton of swingsets and open spaces but doesn't that defeat one of the purposes of living downtown? To be less car dependent? It's currently one of the reasons my wife wants to move out of downtown. It is completely non kid friendly on a day to day basis. Downtown is never going to feel like a true big city unless they start putting in more amenities for the kids. I think RnR was questioning whether they have story time or equivalent for the kids at the main library. The answer is no. They have absolutely zero children activities for the kids.

 

I disagree that is truly non kid friendly.  However, I think that developers are missing a key component of city living by not building housing that would entice parents to stay closer to the city center.  Nor are we building not only smaller kid friendly "amenities" or activities for overall multi generational family entertainment.  (Examples:  A playground;  A putt-putt/miniature golf course;  Dog Park;  Water features;  Bike/Running trails, etc.)

 

Thank you. Apparently we're just the parents of coddled brats because they want swingsets and kiddie story time and play areas at the library.

Downtown is going to have to change if they want to draw families there. You can't just say oh, they're all just thinking wrong and their kids are spoiled and they're evil and they hate Cleveland and they're afraid of their own shadow, it's just not representative of the real reasons.

 

Who is saying that?  Please, we're all just offering different opinions of what DT for a child is like for a child based on personal experience.

 

MTS,

Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to say. The few families that do live downtown are all leaving because the lack of amenities that you mentioned. I was hoping that by the time my wife and I had children, city hall would realize some of the things missing to entice families to move and stay downtown. To me, its a lack of vision and yet seems so simple. So away I go to the suburbs. House hunting starts tomorrow. I will probably cry myself to sleep tonight.

 

+1

 

we are waiting for the amenities as well.  downtown is actually quite kid friendly with things to see - people, dogs, boats, buildings, things on the street, etc., but there is a sorely missing playground component, either along the river at w10, voinovich park, malls, etc.  There is some hope that the new malls will have some kid friendly equipment, but i haven't seen a a funded plan, only some conceptual ideas.

 

we spend a lot of time around browns stadium and science center on the grass areas and i had hoped that the city would put some kids play equipment where the old skate park was at voinovich park.  that is at least a central location which would help serve downtown residents with kids, but also provide something to visitors to the area with kids.

 

perhaps we can approach the cimperman and request a small allocation to put some basic stuff in?

 

This discussion is sort of rediculous but if you think adding swing sets to any downtown will make it vibrant or successful is extremely debatable. I live in one of the most vibrant downtowns (San Francisco) and you would be hard pressed to find anything close and we are packed every day of the year. If I had any involvement with downtown Cleve the last group I would be worried about is attracting children, SF focuses on Adults (who also don't worry about paying for parking) and they drag the kids along, period.

 

having lived in san fran, i think the comparisons are apples to oranges.  there are so many factors that are different in northern california that don't necessarily apply to demand generation in northeast ohio for a similar neighborhood or residential product. 

 

There may be some distinction between downtown proper and neighborhoods, and I don't know if you have any kids, in which case you may not notice what is there in SF, but there are literally 100 playgrounds in San Francisco, many of them in areas that are much more dense than Cleveland's downtown proper.  There is a great list here:  http://www.ggmg.org/Playgrounds/playground_summary.html

 

while i agree that a swingset isn't going to make downtown vibrant, it is one of the small quality of life issues that if not implemented will potentially shift my discretionary dollars, real estate purchase, and general interest in downtown towards a suburb.

MTS,

 

It's really obvious with younger children (2-5 years old). My older nephews love it down here. Also, I'm being a bit overly dramatic about moving to the suburbs. Tremont, O.C. and Shaker Hts are very much a possibility.

 

Yeah, I can imagine the pre school age set doesn't really care.  They want green space and bright items to play with.

 

Please tell me you mean Shaker Square, not Shaker Hts.  ;)

The debate has shifted. RNR's poll was asking moms w/ like aged children (0-5 I'm guessing) if they come downtown, not if they live there. A playground downtown isn't going to have a large impact on my decision to visit downtown. And I think we're really in the middle stage of the growth curve for downtown. Typically families with children are going to be the last folks to move into a burgeoning urban area, as they are prone to be the least pioneering (with exceptions, of course). The playgrounds will come, but I think more dry cleaners / full service groceries / public schools / other day to day needs have to flesh out before you see people making a decision to move into downtown based on if a swingset is within walking distance.

 

Getting back to RNR''s initial poll, there seems to be a lot of consternation about suburban families only coming downtown a couple times a year. I don't know what the fuss is about. How many times are we supposed to come downtown...or to any particular destination? My daily go-to places w/ the kids are of course going to be close to where I live (regardless of where that is), because that's what's convenient. With only a couple exceptions did I see poll respondants indicating they were avoiding downtown, only that they don't get down as frequently. Those people will come back more when their kids are older. As for the others...well, they were never coming regardless of their situation, so there's no loss.

 

And I love posters w/out kids bashing those of us with them on what kids should be entertained by. Have a kid, and understand what is involved in any out of the house excursion (what you need to bring, worrying about making sure they don't wander, when they need to eat, how far they can walk...since based on other threads we're not allowed strollers anymore either..etc.), and deal with their naturally short term attention spans, and then get back to me.

Thanks AJ. I think some of the discussion about living downtown became related because people are not coming downtown as much because they don't live downtown, so the reasons are intertwined in a way. The reasons for not visiting downtown are similar, but not all encompassing, of the reasons people don't live downtown, so they're related.

Getting back to RNR''s initial poll, there seems to be a lot of consternation about suburban families only coming downtown a couple times a year.

 

Regardless of people's reasons for not coming downtown (which is where this conversation headed), this whole discussion started with R&R's claim that catering to what suburbanites think about downtown is as important as what residents think (with respect to an incident involving a naked man running down W. 25th St.) because they are the people who dine and shop downtown every day.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4065.msg571849.html#msg571849

 

Basically, my point was that most suburbanites do not dine and shop downtown often at all, and some almost never (and that R&R is an atypical suburbanite for going downtown often).  I think the discussion in this thread has just proven this to be true.

Truly, 20 people or whatever is not really an accurate poll, just a sampling, but from the results of this poll ONLY, I would say I'm not typical, but not terribly unusual. Keep in mind most of my downtown activity is because I work here. Outside of being at work, or something directly before or after work, I would be downtown as often as the average people in the poll - not very much. I do get OUT of my suburb regularly, but don't choose downtown (or OC/Tremont, as mentioned in my poll) any more often than any other destination. I go for a specific reason that is usually anchored to a place, not just to hang out. To a local theater to see a show, to a specific restaurant, to a group gathering, to a yoga or dance class, etc. I think most suburbanites do that, and get around a fair amount, if perhaps limited to their "side" of town. I go downtown and places west and south of DT a whole lot more than I go east.

 

I maintain that the people sitting on E 4th and in the restaurants in Tremont and OC on an average Fri or Sat are at least 85% surburbanites, and that it does matter what they think. I just wasn't able to prove that in my poll of moms. Had I included men, particularly single men, the results woudl probably be different.

^I think you also have a unique sampling from a 'mommy board'.  Not saying anything bad about the participants, but I think those boards tend to attract more 'like minded' individuals who more typically really want that suburban comfort zone.  Not knocking it at all, I live in the suburbs and find it best for my family.

 

As far as a playground, I can't tell you how much more appealing a family night out in Little Italy is with the new park there.  When we have our neices and nephews in town, we typically go down there with them and our son to enjoy the playground, the atmosphere and, of course, some Presti's.  I was really hoping that the City would consider a playground for one component of the Group Plan.

I maintain that the people sitting on E 4th and in the restaurants in Tremont and OC on an average Fri or Sat are at least 85% surburbanites, and that it does matter what they think. I just wasn't able to prove that in my poll of moms. Had I included men, particularly single men, the results woudl probably be different.

 

I didn't take issue with you saying we should care what suburbanites think, I was just providing context.  The part I disagreed with was that you were characterizing suburbanites as people that love to go downtown and shop.  Sure, the clientele on E. 4th is most likely a heavy majority suburban, but that's still a very small percentage of total suburbanites.  I still maintain that most suburbanites do not go downtown often or hardly ever.  Luckily, there's enough that do to support some places, but just think of how vibrant downtown would be if we could double or triple the percentage of suburbanites that came downtown.

On that, we agree, and part of the reason I put up that poll was to offer another opinion and take the opportunity to educate some of them about downtown. How you CAN find free parking if your lazy ass will walk 2 blocks. How the DCA will escort you if it's late and you're worried about safety, etc.

How you CAN find free parking if your lazy ass will walk 2 blocks

 

or if people would learn how to parallel park.

My first Cleveland apartment was in Lakewood, so I immediately became an expert at parallel parking.

As far as a playground, I can't tell you how much more appealing a family night out in Little Italy is with the new park there.  When we have our neices and nephews in town, we typically go down there with them and our son to enjoy the playground, the atmosphere and, of course, some Presti's.  I was really hoping that the City would consider a playground for one component of the Group Plan.

 

I thought it was in one of their recommendations.  Granted that doesnt mean it will be implemented as the funding is opaque at best right now.

And I love posters w/out kids bashing those of us with them on what kids should be entertained by. Have a kid, and understand what is involved in any out of the house excursion (what you need to bring, worrying about making sure they don't wander, when they need to eat, how far they can walk...since based on other threads we're not allowed strollers anymore either..etc.), and deal with their naturally short term attention spans, and then get back to me.

 

You dont have to be a parent to know these things!  ;)

My first Cleveland apartment was in Lakewood, so I immediately became an expert at parallel parking.

 

They need to bring it back in the drivers' license test.

wow, I didn't know they took it out!

That was my fault taking the topic and expanding it to include us that live downtown and have kids. I do think they are related.

 

Urbanlife,

Great post. I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I've never lived in S.F., I have lived in the Lincoln Park area  and I will say one of the things that kept me from being homesick was seeing strollers and kids running around the park. I don't know why but it did.

 

MTS,

 

Yes, I meant the Shaker Square area  :wink:

 

 

As far as a playground, I can't tell you how much more appealing a family night out in Little Italy is with the new park there.  When we have our neices and nephews in town, we typically go down there with them and our son to enjoy the playground, the atmosphere and, of course, some Presti's.  I was really hoping that the City would consider a playground for one component of the Group Plan.

 

I thought it was in one of their recommendations.  Granted that doesnt mean it will be implemented as the funding is opaque at best right now.

 

I can't imagine, in the larger scheme of things, a new playground (even one as nice as the LI playground) would be a budget buster.  Especially given the fact that you can usually get volunteers (i.e. the community) to perform the labor on these types of projects.

^In a downtown setting, the biggest cost of a playground is the land, not the equipment. That said, a well-deisgned playground will fit in a small space.

^Downtown Cleveland already has plenty of underused publicly-owned space, so I don't think any acquisition would really be needed.  How about a nice new playground in Huntington Park?  Or Settler's Landing Park?  Can't say you'd really be displacing many other users.

 

Just saying, the playground would most likely have black kids at it and alot of racist/semi racist people that live in the suburbs wouldn't want to take there kids anyways. I dont really think a playground is necessary downtown anyways.

Just saying, the playground would most likely have black kids at it and alot of racist/semi racist people that live in the suburbs wouldn't want to take there kids anyways. I dont really think a playground is necessary downtown anyways.

Please tell me thats sarcasm. If not this is exactly the type of comment RnR and other suburbanites would find offensive.  Shit I'm black/latin, live within the borders of Cleveland and find that offensive.

Thank you!

^^^ Those people exist, but they also aren't ever setting foot outside of their suburban fortress either.

 

Playground in the flats, say near where the skate park and CRF boathouse are planned to be might not be a bad idea.

Anyone have a sense (anecdotal or from Census numbers) how many playground aged kids actually live downtown?  The more I think about this, the more I wonder why there isn't already a playground downtown near the WHD or in the flats.  Would be a nice statement about the suitability of downtown for more than just childless yuppies and empty-nesters.

I've already email Cimperman about this issue and I encourage others to do the same.  I was very impressed with the quantity and quality of playgrounds in San Francisco so I sent him the link to their website.  I also asked him to study the construction of two playgrounds downtown.  One on the west side maybe in Settler's Landing or the yet-to-be-built park as part of the east bank project.  And one on the east side maybe as part of Perk Park or on some of the green space around the one Cleveland center parking garage.  Maybe the city could even work with the developer of the Avenue District to include a playground near their townhomes.  Not sure if they would be interested in this because I'm not sure who they're marketing to, but you won't know until you ask.

 

Since we've been living in the WHD we've met several people that lamented the fact that they felt forced out of downtown because of their decision to have children.  Playgrounds obviously isn't the whole story there, but I think it's an important factor.  As downtowns population continues to grow I think the focus needs to shift from recruiting young, new residents to more of an emphasis on keeping families downtown.  Right now downtown is fantastic for young professionals, single people, and empty nesters, but I think there a few simple things we can do to attract families.  Playgrounds are definitely one of them.

No need to email him pics from out of town, just tell him to replicate Tony Brush Park in the downtown area.  Ideally, it would be very near other attractions which is what makes TPB so great.  It has the playground, a small pavillion, picnic tables, an urban farm/garden, and a decent yet not overly expansive greenspace.  Exactly what Downtown needs.

^I think Settlers Landing Park would make an awesome "beach" for young kids with those kinds of amenities.  I guess it wouldn't be cheap because of the slope and you'd need to install a better railing along the water, but what an awesome setting.  And that place is embarrassingly underused in its current state.

No need to email him pics from out of town, just tell him to replicate Tony Brush Park in the downtown area.  Ideally, it would be very near other attractions which is what makes TPB so great.  It has the playground, a small pavillion, picnic tables, an urban farm/garden, and a decent yet not overly expansive greenspace.  Exactly what Downtown needs.

 

And it's all fit onto the size of what was one small Little League baseball field previously, without feeling cramped.

Just saying, the playground would most likely have black kids at it and alot of racist/semi racist people that live in the suburbs wouldn't want to take there kids anyways. I dont really think a playground is necessary downtown anyways.

Please tell me thats sarcasm. If not this is exactly the type of comment RnR and other suburbanites would find offensive.  sh!t I'm black/latin, live within the borders of Cleveland and find that offensive.

 

From one of our own posters...

 

Here is a part of a story of theirs about a park and how different black kids and white kids act.

 

And im not calling this poster racist just to clarify.

 

 

All I know is I wanted those kids to get out of the stupid park and leave my kid alone, and that the white kids at the park didn't act like that, and that I was glad I didn't live there anymore.

 

 

Okay, this thread has clearly run its course.