Posted October 11, 201113 yr Just curious as to what proposed brick and mortar projects forumers think are important to Cleveland so... The question I am posing is.... pick one proposed but speculative project you would like to see built and explain why. For purposed of this question it should be a building or project which has already been proposed and may even have plans developed with actual renderings (or not). It should be a project that is not under construction and is having a hard time, or is stalled for one reason or another (most likely financing) and is not likely to come to fruition soon, or perhaps at all. For example, the new Westin would not qualify as, even though the project has not begun, odds are it will break ground in the next few months. The CSU Chester project would be another example as it looks as though that is a go shortly. No fair to make up your own grand project...has to be something that is "out there"...say for example Phase 2 of the East Bank or the Jacobs Group proposed building on Public Square. Also no fair to pick more than one...that's what makes this exercise "fun". My choice would be the Weston (do I have the right name) development proposed in the Warehouse District, which is basically the remnants of the Starks grand scheme. While the details have always been vague, I recall at least a strong mixed use element with possible retail near the core of the city. I am just so sick (as is everybody) of those parking lots in the heart of the city.
October 11, 201113 yr I predict that is going to be most people's choice who actually like to enjoy downtown and not just look upon it from afar (those people will likely chooose the Jacobs' Group Public Sqaure tower). The proposal Stark once made for 'Pesht' was an urban enthusiast's wet dream. It was all one phase, completely mixed use, and did not remove anything of value (if anything at all) from the urban fabric. It would have created a pedestrian street like E 4th. It would have been built over surface lots which should not be there in the first place. It would add residential and class A office space to downtown. It had very little downside other than the price tag ($1 billion iirc). Weston scaled it down but still had many of the core elements.
October 11, 201113 yr I realize it's not one but actually many projects, but seeing the Lakefront Plan come into being would be amazing. Proper investment into the shoreline will have a profound effect on the perception and psyche of this city. It's a fight vs. one hundred years of bad planning. But opening up Lake Erie for residential, recreation and retail is game changer. We only get one shot at it though; it has to be done the right way.
October 11, 201113 yr ^See you already broke the rules :roll: Should just pick one proposed lakefront design.
October 11, 201113 yr I predict that is going to be most people's choice who actually like to enjoy downtown and not just look upon it from afar (those people will likely chooose the Jacobs' Group Public Sqaure tower). The proposal Stark once made for 'Pesht' was an urban enthusiast's wet dream. It was all one phase, completely mixed use, and did not remove anything of value (if anything at all) from the urban fabric. It would have created a pedestrian street like E 4th. It would have been built over surface lots which should not be there in the first place. It would add residential and class A office space to downtown. It had very little downside other than the price tag ($1 billion iirc). Weston scaled it down but still had many of the core elements. We use tax payers dollars to build the medical mart/convention center. $465 million worth. Also we build stadiums. I think it would be awesome if we could use public money to develop those parking lots. I think filling in those lots would benefit the city more than any stadium or medical mart!
October 11, 201113 yr A Public Square office tower of at least 300 feet in height. I think it's a major embarrassment to have a parking lot on Public Square. And I suspect such a prestigious address offering Class A office space would fill up. Even if it stole tenants from other buildings downtown, I think it would be worthwhile for the city's psyche, PR, etc. The problem is it would reduce already-low office rents throughout downtown. So unless this is accompanied by another office tower converting into residential (Breuer, East Ohio, etc), a homegrown company expanding into it, or a company relocating from outside the metro area, no bank would ever loan this project for such a speculative venture. I just talked myself out of this one! Can I think of a "likely" speculative venture? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 11, 201113 yr ^OK KJP you broke the rules too. :roll: If you want an office tower on that Public Square lot it has to be the proposed Jacobs Tower...no making things up.
October 11, 201113 yr By the way KJP I thought you would have picked the North Coast Transportation Center (or maybe you think that is so far dead it is not even worth suggesting it for this exercise).
October 11, 201113 yr Oooo what a cool thread. I'd most like to see the WHD built up, as the OP and others have described. EDIT: Htsguy is right. We only get one, the rest of mine I deleted. We use tax payers dollars to build the medical mart/convention center. $465 million worth. Also we build stadiums. I think it would be awesome if we could use public money to develop those parking lots. I think filling in those lots would benefit the city more than any stadium or medical mart! Music to my ears!
October 11, 201113 yr ^My God, all these rule breakers. 327 you can only pick ONE project. Tough huh?
October 11, 201113 yr Nah, I don't consider the North Coast Transportation Center speculative since it is a government funded project, and not subject to the whims of the financial markets. I am very comfortable that if it gets built, Amtrak, GCRTA and at least a couple of transit agencies providing express buses to outlying counties will serve it. To me, it's like if you dig a hole in the bottom of the lake, it will fill up with water. So if I'm going to pick a project, it would be a project that is limited by the constraints of the financial marketplace rather than by the constraints of a few political leaders who haven't been reached yet. A financial market cannot be so easily turned as they. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 12, 201113 yr ^See you already broke the rules :roll: Should just pick one proposed lakefront design. Yes, I picked one design. The Lakefront Plan that went through all kinds of public hearings under the Campbell Administration.
October 12, 201113 yr West Shoreway Boulevard Conversion. The full monte. Not the watered-down version. I want ever bike path, tree and stoplight. Why? A single building is nice. But the Shoreway conversion has the chance to change the course of Cleveland in a couple ways. One, it's the first piece of the cog that is Lakefront Development. With any luck there would be some sort of domino effect that would spread eastward from our newly invigorated near-west shore. Secondly, it can do what many so-called urban pioneers (including those of us on these boards) have been unable to do in Cleveland's recent 20 year history of renewal. It would connect "pockets of development" and allow them to spread and grow together. Downtown, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, Cudell and Edgewater would all benefit from this connection. :clap:
October 12, 201113 yr ^Sigh...so when exactly was that proposed. I'm pretty sure you'd find 2 or 3 proposals for something like that over the last 30 years. You might have to actually do some digging around and not just on UO/Google, but I'm sure they're somewhere.
October 12, 201113 yr The Lakefront Development floated by the Browns (probably one of the most speculative developments out there). After going to Baltimore this past weekend and seeing their Inner Harbor it really brought to light how much there is that can be done on the water. This land is practically there for the taking, pretty sure the Port has agreed in concept. I think as much as the PS tower would change perceptions, getting something built on the lake would do more.
October 12, 201113 yr I'm sorry I don't know all the different plans that are being floated around, but a plan that develops the lakefront would be my #1, though it's followed closely behind for any plan that develops the warehouse district to get rid of all the awful surface parking lots.
October 12, 201113 yr Id take a warehouse district full with apartments, condos, offices, and retail on those parking lots over a public square tower any day. It would have a way bigger impact then just an office tower.
October 12, 201113 yr Rock-o-meter If this is sarcasm... ROFLCOPTER if not.. :-o I pick.. Browns Stadium waterfront development. Because of its visibility, it could be just the project needed to jumpstart a few more developments, such as Stonebridge's full buildout, and the FEB finished buildout. It could also start to provide the impetus to complete a subway loop.
October 12, 201113 yr An exclusive bike lane all the way from Bratenahl to Sandusky. Neatly plowed in the winter, too.
October 12, 201113 yr ^I hate to be the dictator of the thread (or maybe not :wink:) but again, you're not suppose to make up your own project. It is suppose to be a project that is "out there", but right now has little chance of going forward.
October 12, 201113 yr Ok, build the friggin' Towpath...all the way to Columbus. Gov Taft promised it to us. For Musky: there is an okey-dokey bike lane along Lakeshore Drive from Mentor to Bratenahl. I ride the Euclid part every year.
October 12, 201113 yr For Musky: there is an okey-dokey bike lane along Lakeshore Drive from Mentor to Bratenahl. I ride the Euclid part every year. Not Plowed though :) ^I hate to be the dictator of the thread (or maybe not :wink:) but again, you're not suppose to make up your own project. It is suppose to be a project that is "out there", but right now has little chance of going forward. Ok, my project would be the Progressive Tower on Lakeside... although i reserve the right to change my mind later. Its the one project that keeps popping into my head.
October 13, 201113 yr http://www.cleveland.com/pdgraphics/index.ssf/2010/11/straightening_the_cuyahoga_riv.html Straighten the river, create an island! What's not to love?
October 13, 201113 yr WHAT: The complete mixed use Flats East Bank project. With housing, commercial, and retail all set up using the FEB Rapid stop and developer agreements fulfilling the "East/West" proposal to connect the banks of the river. WHY: If this got done the Waterfront line would be very busy, potentially encouraging further RTA development of the line (Downtown Loop?). The WHD would have a larger adjacent population encouraging developers to build on the open lots. The Jacobs P.S. property would likely be built on. The Downtown CBD would be developed from the Cuyahoga to E12 achieving a critical mass to spur further developments to move (Gateway Mixed use, Avenue District, Asia Town, etc.)
October 13, 201113 yr http://www.cleveland.com/pdgraphics/index.ssf/2010/11/straightening_the_cuyahoga_riv.html Straighten the river, create an island! What's not to love? Until I clicked on the link and saw you meant the casino project, I thought you meant this realignment:
October 13, 201113 yr Not sure if this constitutes a single project, but I'd go with the Group Plan Commission recommendations. I think, if done properly, it will have the power to spur a lot of the other private developments downtown, like Jacobs' Public Square property, the WHD lots, and the Port area north of the stadium. Not to mention it would help unify all the other fragmented parts that already exist.
October 13, 201113 yr Not sure if this constitutes a single project, but I'd go with the Group Plan Commission recommendations. I think, if done properly, it will have the power to spur a lot of the other private developments downtown, like Jacobs' Public Square property, the WHD lots, and the Port area north of the stadium. Not to mention it would help unify all the other fragmented parts that already exist. The Group Plan is interesting. The one area of LMN's plan that I disagree with is their concept for re-establishing the grassy bluff north of City Hall and County Bldg. They wanted to tear down the parking garages in the latest plan, if I'm remembering correctly. In their current incarnation, the Shoreway and rail line would devalue any attempted return to the "Postcard days" of this area. The solution to connecting downtown to the shoreline is an infrastructural one. Ideas like the North Coast Transportation Center or extending the Convention Center northward make much more sense for connectivity.
October 13, 201113 yr Not sure if this constitutes a single project, but I'd go with the Group Plan Commission recommendations. I think, if done properly, it will have the power to spur a lot of the other private developments downtown, like Jacobs' Public Square property, the WHD lots, and the Port area north of the stadium. Not to mention it would help unify all the other fragmented parts that already exist. The Group Plan is interesting. The one area of LMN's plan that I disagree with is their concept for re-establishing the grassy bluff north of City Hall and County Bldg. They wanted to tear down the parking garages in the latest plan, if I'm remembering correctly. In their current incarnation, the Shoreway and rail line would devalue any attempted return to the "Postcard days" of this area. The solution to connecting downtown to the shoreline is an infrastructural one. Ideas like the North Coast Transportation Center or extending the Convention Center northward make much more sense for connectivity. I could be wrong, but my understanding was that the idea of removing the garages to restore the lakefront park was only a conceptual idea proposed by LMN, while the actual final Group Plan report only recommended enhancing the landscaping north of the Courthouse and City Hall to connect Willard Park and Fort Huntington Park with the Mall. At least that's how I interpret it: http://media.cleveland.com/pdgraphics_impact/photo/11cgmalljpg-b09cefc673b80f25.jpg I agree with you that I would not want to see the garages removed. If part of the recommendations includes creating a bridge or other connection from the north end of the Mall to the lakefront, I have to believe that the garages (and their structural elements) would be critical to accomplishing this.
October 13, 201113 yr Not Plowed though :) Who's not plowed? The bike path or Boreas?? I changed my mind. The speculative project I want is the downtown rail loop. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17056.0.html Either this..... Or this..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 13, 201113 yr For me, I would say the West Shoreway Boulevard conversion. I think a greater emphasis on inner city neighborhoods needs to take place, and this would make Detroit Shoreway, and it's surrounding areas boom. Furthermore, we would end up with a continuous newighborhood from the West bank through Ohio City into the Detroit Shoreway.
November 15, 201113 yr I'd have to agree with KJP and say that I want a downtown rail loop. That would be fantastic for our downtown and, if done properly and had the right stops, could be a game changer. It would finally do something that Cleveland has never been good at, connecting all of our assets together. But what I'd REALLY like to see is (and I don't know if this has been proposed or not yet and if it hasn't, sorry for breaking the rules :oops: ) rail that connects the most popular areas of the city. I'd love to see University Circle, Shaker Square, Downtown, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway and Edgewater connected. A stop at Steelyard, if possible, would only enhance that line. Logistically, I don't know how you could do it or if you could do it, but if its possible, we need a rail line to connect our best neighborhoods.
November 15, 201113 yr Oh! And how could I forget? The planned Aerotropolis development around Hopkins airport. (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/04/urban_planners_say_land_around_cleveland_hopkins_international_airport_could_spark_development.html) This is vital and I think this plan, along with the Lakefront Plan and the West Shore Commuter Rail Plan, could have a hugely positive impact on Cleveland's future, if implemented.
November 15, 201113 yr Do I see the words "Muni Lot Redevelopment" on there? You'll catch some resistance there from a perhaps unlikely source. Browns fans. That may be the best tailgating spot in America. I know it's ten times a year, but doesn't it see pretty significant usage during the workday?
November 15, 201113 yr Do I see the words "Muni Lot Redevelopment" on there? You'll catch some resistance there from a perhaps unlikely source. Browns fans. That may be the best tailgating spot in America. I know it's ten times a year, but doesn't it see pretty significant usage during the workday? Well the city has said that they won't redevelop Muni Lot until they find another place for Browns fans to tailgate. And sometimes the lot is crowded but there are plenty of times during the day that the lot is half empty. I personally think that the Muni Lot is more value to the city if its redeveloped. But we'll see.
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