<i>I think Nick is getting a bit frustrated with downtown and OTR. I can understand the concern that urban core will become nothing but a wasteland for the poor and addicted. The social service agencies are getting what they wanted and saving no one.

 

Everyone seems to have high hopes for Broadway Commons, but again nothing happens so let build the new jail there.</i>

 

<b>How to Kill a City</b>

 

I think Cincinnati, over the last 30 years, has run a clinic on how to kill a city. Over that time frame, we have run an almost perfect playbook on how to drive people out into suburbs or out of the region entirely. When you take a step back, and look at it in a big-picture sense, its almost awe-inspiring. You really can't do it much better.

 

So how do you kill a city? How do you make sure an urban area becomes so inhospitable, so unattractive, that it kills development before it even begins. How do you make sure that the evacuation from your core neighborhoods is so severe it drains the area of all but those of the least means?

 

It starts with a lack of regional cooperation. Make sure the city and county are at odds, then make sure the neighboring counties think even less of the city. Get it to a point where just being cordial with each other is considered regionalism, and showing up together for a photo-op is called a show of cooperation. Avoid any kind of regional government entity with teeth; make sure the suburbs continue to sprawl outward with new construction of homes and office parks. Don't even joke about metro government even though its worked pretty much everywhere else.

 

Now that you're sprawling, and the nicer areas and nicer jobs keep getting farther out, cut off the city. Whatever you do, do NOT pass any kind of transit initiative. If you do a light rail campaign, make certain its badly run and unrealistic in terms of cost and construction. Cut that city off at the knees-- they could handle the sprawl if there's a connecting train, so make sure that light rail defeat is so convincing it doesn't get on another ballot for fear that supporting it would mean pissing money and time away. No, get people addicted to cars, and make them hate walking and mass transit. When they take those cars downtown, make parking them as difficult as possible, and make sure you aggressively enforce parking meters. Make it a hassle.

 

Now, you've cut off the city from most of the new investment. But a lot of people still like cities. They like the historic texture, the authentic neighborhood business districts, the culture. So override that by making the area as terrifying as possible. Make sure all your low-income housing is concentrated, preferably as close to downtown as possible. Now that you've done that, get a bunch of social services in. This works out great: conservatives like it because they don't want the poor anywhere near them, and liberals will fall for it if you dress it up as compassion and call any other strategy 'kicking out the poor' or 'gentrification'. The concentration of poverty will have a host of negative effects: the lack of investment will diminish the tax base, and you'll see less in basic services provided. That means less police. This makes the area a perfect place to commit crimes. More crime means more people are willing to forgo the excitement of a city in favor of suburban safety.

 

This is maybe the most effective part. Because once you concentrate this stuff, you're practically all the way there. You can keep doing it, indefinitely. You can build social services, jails, and low income housing developments over and over, and each time, just argue that this is where the need is. Just make sure you don't spread this stuff out. A region is a big place, and if you spread low income housing out across every neighborhood and jurisdiction, no one would even feel it. If you put shelters and jails in non-residential areas, they'd barely be noticed by all but those who use them. Isolated, poverty swells. It will grow and grow, until it takes over an entire city.

 

You're almost all the way there, but cities are stubborn. They get in people's system. They are still the place most regions put their major people magnets: stadiums, convention centers, museums, arts venues, and entertainment districts. People get down there, and they say, wow, look at all there is to do down here. Now, you've already fixed this a little bit by making people feel unsafe. But the surefire way to negate this impression is to cut those people magnets off.

 

See, cities thrive on connectivity and walkability. So NEVER stick that Baseball park in the middle of the downtown or even directly adjacent to it. Cut it off. Use roads if you can. Nothing kills pedestrian traffic like long crosswalks. Don't put it near bars, shops, and condos-- put it around a sea of parking, or office towers with nothing on the storefront level. Before you know it, you can bring 60,000 people downtown and it will still have little to no meaningful impact on the city's economy.

 

But amazingly, there are still groups of folks who will take a chance on your city. Urban pioneers. Almost nothing is too bad for them once they see that architecture and its potential. And while you may have to deal with some small number of passionate advocates for revitalization, there are ways to diminish those numbers. Make sure you're city isn't gay-friendly. The GLBT community can work wonders for an urban area, keep them away through State bans on Gay Marriage, never get a human rights ordinance that includes them. And watch out for immigrants. They are fueling growth in cities around the country. Avoid any concentrated efforts to attract new Americans. Oh, and artists. you can get away with creating arts districts in name, but don't implement financial incentives for them or develop artist specific housing.

 

If you do all these things, you will kill your city. Do these things, and they set off an amazing chain reaction. Before you know it you will be spending most of your time arguing about race, poverty, and crime. Most people will talk about the city the way they talk about a dying relative. Few people will go there, and when they do, they'll be in and out as fast as possible.

 

You may look at this and say its nothing new, stuff everybody knows. And yet, we continue to do it. We are, every day, making things worse.

 

We're expanding our jail in the middle of downtown. This one is just mind-blowing in its stupidity. It sits next to Broadway Commons, the largest undeveloped parcel of land in our downtown. We need that area to be developed into residential units and maybe some kind of entertainment. It has nearly as much potential as The Banks, and its cheaper. It could be THE big project that turns downtown around. But nobody is going to develop it with a jail right there. Would you pay 250k for a condo that looks out at the fucking Justice Center?

 

We're going to build CityLink in the West End.

 

Metro Government? Ha. Light Rail? Ha ha.

 

Dead last in terms of documented foreign born population and apparently we like it that way. No artist housing developments. No Human Rights Ordinance and a State Ban on Gay Marriage.

 

We continue to do everything and anything possible to kill this city. Its done through an odd mixture of arrogance, incompetence, and fear. Undoing all of it would be a daunting task, but even worse, there's no WILL to do it. The system as it exists right now is working for most people. And so the decline continues. City government becomes less and less meaningful, and certainly less capable of doing much of anything about it.

 

Its a sad, sorry state of affairs for a city with this much beauty, this much history. Its sad to watch it die.

 

posted by Nick [/member] 11:12 AM

 

http://nickspencer.blogspot.com/

Doesn't sound like anything different than what's happening in 90+% of all of America's cities.  Hmmm.

Here is the link to the CBJ article about the jail.

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2006/01/16/story1.html

The county's consultant says, "It's going to be good for downtown."

I don't know why. Deputies transporting prisoners will stay for lunch ?

 

Nick is being over negative in this rant.  The jail, while not doing much positive for the area, has no negative impact now.  I live a few blocks from the jail, and think it makes sense to have it near the courthouse.  If they were starting from scratch, I could see the argument about locating it in an industrial area.  However, an existing jail is already there, attached to the courthouse.  It is a common sense location.  This doesn't mean that Broadway Commons cannot be developed, or that the Blue Whisp jazz club (just a block to the south) will be negatively affected.

I try to stay positive about the area, OTR, Downtown and the hillsides because I love it so much here and there is so much potential but I have gotten very frustrated with the BIG projects that are planned lately. Demolition of 22 buildings by CPS in the middle of OTR. Citylink which will be a magnet for homeless of the region in the west end. The residents of pendleton and downtown who will have to put a with a jail right in their front door. I get a bad vibe every time I walk past the jail, I see inmates looking out their small windows. If I was sheriff The jail would be in a dungeon underground with no windows, no television or weights and crappy food! Make it so bad they will never want to end up there ever again.. If only the workhouse were still in camp washington....Sorry I had to steam a bit. :wink: I can see nicks frustration those who live here or have business here are working so hard to make things better and these issues keep trying to knock us down.

I oppose expanding the jail downtown, but mostly because there are much better uses for the land.

 

Wouldn't you think criminals would want to stay away from the sheriff, jail, and courthouse? If I ever got put in the county jail, the first thing I'd do upon release is get the hell away from it. I live near the jail and walk by it regularly. I haven't heard of criminal activity arising because the jail is where it is. 

 

I agree with Nick's other points. Anyone familiar with Metro Detroit can see that his concerns are 100% legitimate.

 

    I try my best to keep a positive attitude. Yes, things are frustrating, but people are not doing stupid things on purpose. Just look at how controversial some of these projects are. There are differences of opinion about what is best for the city. Some say that missions for the poor are good, some say they are bad. Same with ballparks, highways, and so on. If the ball park had been built at Broadway Commons, I'm sure there would be someone who could find a reason to complain about it.

 

    I hope for the best. Ultimately, what Over-the-Rhine needs is more people living there, preferably people with enough money to restore and maintain the buildings. Will this ever happen? I don't know. The fact is that the original owners / tenants have died or moved away, and can anyone really be blamed for that?

 

    The real world is complicated. I understand the frustration. Where do we go from here?

We will not win every battle (and perhaps not even most) but we are making significant headway.  Just a week or so ago, on another thread we were all chiming in about how much new residential is here now and how much more is coming.  I owned a business on 7th st a decade ago and people were frustrated then, some have left, however even more have come in to take up the task of forging ahead.  We can not allow every piece of news to bring us down because OTR will come back, one street at a time.  Crime will go down, one arrest at a time.  Residents will come back, one development at a time.  Do not get frustrated, this is a process, a long, and sometimes painful process.

We will not win every battle (and perhaps not even most) but we are making significant headway.  Just a week or so ago, on another thread we were all chiming in about how much new residential is here now and how much more is coming.  I owned a business on 7th st a decade ago and people were frustrated then, some have left, however even more have come in to take up the task of forging ahead.  We can not allow every piece of news to bring us down because OTR will come back, one street at a time.  Crime will go down, one arrest at a time.  Residents will come back, one development at a time.  Do not get frustrated, this is a process, a long, and sometimes painful process.

 

Amen.

Wow...Nick snapped and lost his sh*t!

 

I'm mad that Nick's RSS feeds aren't updated.  Maybe I should rant on that.

grasscat,

You can get Nick's RSS at http://nickspencer.blogspot.com/atom.xml

 

It's been updating for me at this address.

There is something in the water lately.  Last night I sat in 2 separate meetings listening to people tell me how disheartened they are.  The momentum is definitely drifting towards the negative lately and negative momentum is a hard thing to stop let alone reverse.  We need to be carefull in the vocalization of our frustrations because when I go to my office in Montgomery I simply hear "told ya so!" 

 

I hate to say it, but we have some people who need to bite their tongue and try and put a positive spin on things because people will remember these words and all the negative rhetoric and that will only serve to exacerbate the problems.

A few years ago the only thing holding back OTR development was restoc, the drop inn center and Hart realty property holdings. Times have changed and hart lost his portfolio and restoc became just a minor nuisance "to me anyway" I knew the time was ripe and the area and buildings would be saved, heck the buildings survived the period between the 50's and 70's the hardest time for the west end which was destroyed. But in 2006 unexpectantly we had to worry about losing 22 historic buildings in the heart of OTR for a suburban style school which will if current trend holds will be defunct a few years after it's built. I just want things to stay the way they are. NO CPS school at mercer commons, NO major jail expansion at broadway commons and NO citylink! We all know without these bad developments the area will flourish. It just takes time and I'm in for the long haul.

You are right Max, and wrong at the same time.  I do not want that either but we will flourish regardless.  22 buildings will not make residence and developers pack up and run.  We will not give up because of a jail expansion, and Citylink, although located in a bad spot, will not force me to put up a for sale sign in front of my house so I can move to KY. 

 

But you and I know that these are not deal breakers for OTR, but do the people who are outside and considering moving in know this?  Stay positive, and I know you are, but this is a pivotal time for us down here and sometimes we need to keep a smile on our face even though we are feeling a bit of pain.

Michael;

I don't know, I've been hearing that it's a pivotal time for many, many years.  I guess it will only be known in retrospect whether we are at the begining of great change or not.  Either way, I will do my part to keep us moving in the right direction.

I guess we have been in a pivotal time for many years.  As I said in another post, I head a lot of gloom and doom 10 years ago and now we look back on that as sort of a golden era.  We are setting the stage for the next several years and I just want to make sure that we continue in that right direction because what I see is so positive, and so promising, I just want to make sure everyone is seeing greater good, than bad because it is there.

I dont know who Nick Spencer is, but surfed into his blog and did enjoy it a bit.  Interesting reading the comments to his Killing a City post. 

 

My opinion is the rumors of Cincinnatis demise are greatly exaggerated.  The place still looks pretty much alive to me when I go down to visit.

 

(but read his post about Joeseph Beth wanting to move downtown but not doing so..hmmm).

 

 

Nick's run for city council twice, lost soundly both times, though he was a major shoe-leather campaigner.  Was one of the founders of Cincinnati Tomorrow or something, who had all these group walks downtown after the riots...he's a major Florida disciple, creative-class guy, bought a bar in one of the tougher parts of town and gets lots of new bands in, and he's been blogging for a few years now (at various URL's - they keep changing - he blogged on his campaign site for the last year).  He's maybe 27 or 28 now...

Here's what the Cincinnati Beacon (The "Dean") has to say about Nick's recent blog postings:

 

 

Nick Spencer's Urban Pioneers: A Movement In Racism

Saturday, January 21, 2006

Posted by The Dean of Cincinnati

 

A few weeks ago, after yet another crushing defeat in his bid for City Council, Nick Spencer returned to the blogosphere by resurrecting his former domain:  nickspencer.blogspot.com.  Several of his posts have dealt with the whining propaganda that can typically be associated with a misdirected movement known as “Urban Pioneers.”

 

I’ve been considering that monicker—“Urban Pioneers”—ever since Spencer’s crybaby post entitled “Do They Really Want Us?”

 

I started thinking about the word “pioneer,” and what specifically it means.  Consider the following relevant definitions, cited from the Oxford English Dictionary Online:

 

1. Mil. One of a body of foot-soldiers who march with or in advance of an army or regiment, having spades, pickaxes, etc. to dig trenches, repair roads, and perform other labours in clearing and preparing the way for the main body.

 

3. fig.  a. One who goes before to prepare or open up the way for others to follow; one who begins, or takes part in beginning, some enterprise, course of action, etc.; an original investigator, explorer, or worker, in any department of knowledge or activity; an originator, initiator (of some action, scheme, etc.); a forerunner (in such action, etc.).

 

Hopefully, the problem with the concept is immediately obvious:  there were already people in Over-The-Rhine when people like Nick Spencer started to colonize!  Like the early American pioneers who “cleared the way” by destroying Native Americans and stealing their land so white civilization could build on their graves, so too does the Urban Pioneer movement seem hellbent on doing the same to center-city blacks.

 

What does it mean if we think of Urban Pioneers as people who are “clearing the way,” as the word itself denotes?  What are they clearing?  For whom are they clearing it? 

 

How can Urban Pioneers “take part in a beginning” in a place where something is already happening?

 

The old American stories mythologized the Wild West into something savage.  When the people who were already there were reduced to “savages,” it became easier in the collective American consciousness to do whatever was necessary to clear them out of the way.  We called it “Manifest Destiny.” We thought we were on a mission from God.

 

And it certainly looks like Nick Spencer and his Urban Pioneers are cut from the same cloth as their historical predecessors.  But what really makes me sick is their desire to become mythologized in the same way. 

 

Human beings are human beings (even if they are poor and/or black), and no person should be treated as some kind of bothersome obstacle for the actualization of a later arriver’s enterprise.

 

Comments:

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/news/comments/nick_spencers_urban_pioneers_a_movement_in_racism/

 

I do not live downtown, but wish I did. I do work near OTR and as you can tell from my various threads tramp around there a bit. I wanted baseball at Broadway Commons and voted for light rail. I wish they would go ahead an cover over Ft. Wash. Way, I understand it is designed to do so, make it a mile wide park. I actually feel safer walking by the court house and jail because of the increased police presence.  My biggest complaint with the jail is the architecture, but it is a jail after all.  Why can't they build the jail elsewhere, they already transport prisoners there, I see sheriff's buses full of orange striped dudes heading that way nearly every day. I would prefer that big lot see residential/commercial (not office) development.  I see rehabs all over OTR, I see Miami and UC student centers in OTR.  There is plenty of room for everyone in OTR and downtown, but it's not for everyone, let those folks stay "walled up in west chester".

How to Kill a City: Write and complain about the problems, but take no action whatsoever to correct them.  Seams pretty simple and from what I can tell, the typical Ohioans feeling is someone else should fix the problems.  Fate=this state may be f**ked in the next several decades.

Dean;

I live here, and welcome as many new neighbors as possible.  Too many vacant buildings, and too many demolitions happening, because people like you choose not to live here.  Last I looked, OTR's population was still on the 6 decade decline.  I don't think those people all left becasue of Nick Spencer!

I had a problem with Nick's blog because of his pessimism, I have a problem with Dean's because of his racism.  I am an Urban Pioneer and proud, not because I am white, but because I went against what most kids do who were born and raised in Amberly Village or any other suburb for that fact where life was a bit easier, and I moved to the inner city.  And yes Dean, I am clearing the way for other suburbanites to do the same.  My home on Mulberry was not occupied by  a poor minority that I had thrown on the street, no, it was vacant and had been for some time.  My neighbors, both of which are black are Urban Pioneers also, both vacant homes, one from West Chester, one from Columbus.  Our neighborhood historian in one of the new homes on Mulberry is a retired teacher from Mason. 

None of us rich, not all of us white, all of us Urban Pioneers.

 

We are pioneers in that we are the first group in a long time who are choosing to move to OTR, not because we have to, but because we want to.

one who begins, or takes part in beginning

Good point Michael.  I am also not rich :).  Taking a chance and moving downtown has been a substaincial financial drain/risk for me.

While Mr. Spencer does bring up some good points, I am afraid that the negativity may turn people away from the city.  It's tough enough to sometimes get people to do things downtown.  People will use any excuse to stay in the suburbs.  Every time someone hears a negative thing about downtown, they are more than happy to use it as an excuse to stay away.  Maybe the point of this blog entry is to send a "wake-up" call to city leaders, but I wonder if it will cause people to just give up.

 

 

How to Kill a City: Write and complain about the problems, but take no action whatsoever to correct them.  Seams pretty simple and from what I can tell, the typical Ohioans feeling is someone else should fix the problems.  Fate=this state may be f**ked in the next several decades.

 

Nick Spencer has run for city council at least twice, and he also owns a business in Over-the-Rhine.  I do not get the impression that he just sits back and does nothing to improve things.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Nick Spencer also started the "After 5" walks, which was to get more people to patronize the bars in downtown and surrounding areas. 

Unfortunately it is people like Nick and others that do so much for the community are the ones sometimes to get the most frustrated with it.  And Mark, you and me both, there are certainly easier places to live but it is people like yourself that give the community hope.

My comments were not directed toward Nick, but the other 2 million people living in the area.

Ok, even I have fallen into dispair about the fate of our city after talking with Mr. Nate Livingston.  WOW, we are indeed doomed.  Cincybearcat, you should direct your comment to this guy.  I am actually dumber after that conversation.

Hey, Michael, now you are evil, too.

http://blackcincinnati.blogspot.com/

 

Nate - rhymes with hate

all right, I finally am somebody, not to wory though, this is the same way I was introduced here (well maby not so bad) and now I am addicted to this darn site.  If I am on this guys hate list then I am definetly on the right track.  Thanks for the update.

Wow.  Nate is truly a mean person.

^Man that's pretty low. The only good thing is, it seem no one reads that blog.

 

Why is rehabbing an empty buildings evil and trying to clean up a run down area gentrification. BS

Man, that is childish and low!  That whole blog seems pretty uninformed and racially motivated anyhow.

That was pathetic.

It is incredible, but I am going to email him a better photo of me, that one is just a mls photo.

 

Did you read some of the responses on the "Black Blog"?

 

 

Comments

 

...it gets pretty ugly.  Please tell me this is just the local lunatic fringe online at these various sites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Max, I am uploading that onto the MLS tomorow! 

Jeff, Try reading some of the stuff from the beacon.  I feel like Urban Ohio is home base, I don't have to dodge bullets over here.  Personally I blame grasscat for even posting it, he knew I would be suckered into a response over there and now I will probably have people with torches and pitchforks in front of my house.  I think I am done with Nate and Dean for a while.

I think I have a pic of nate and a friend somewhere being idiots at octoberfest a few years ago. The protest signs they were carrying were anti-police and they blocked my view of Mini-Me on stage doing the chicken dance!!  :x The police had to "remove them" because they were getting kazoos tossed at them. LOL

 

I had never really heard of this guy before, slipped under my radar I guess.  To be very honest, after reading the responses I really felt better that it was so few people who were anti everything.  I think this is a microcosm of Cincinnati, a couple of people who have loud voices pretend to represent everyone down here while the vast majority of people are sensible people who just want the best for their city stay a bit quieter in the background. 

 

Nates post only overstepped its bounds in making any comment about Holly.  Although she does look like she stepped off the Mayflower, only I can say that!

Personally I blame grasscat for even posting it, he knew I would be suckered into a response over there and now I will probably have people with torches and pitchforks in front of my house.

 

Sorry!  :cry:

Mr. Redmond:  please explain to me how I am a "racist," and against whom I exert my racism. 

 

Thank you.

Let me begin by saying I do not know you well enough to call you a racist, however your thesis was. Lets begin with the OED as you did....

 

a. The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race. b. = RACIALISM.

 

Like the early American pioneers who “cleared the way” by destroying Native Americans and stealing their land so white civilization could build on their graves, so too does the Urban Pioneer movement seem hellbent on doing the same to center-city blacks.

 

Nick Spencer and his Urban Pioneers are cut from the same cloth as their historical predecessors

 

"white civilization could build on their graves" [urban pionner] "doing the same to center-city blacks"

 

Overwhelimingly, you continue to disregard the original thesis, which involves the use of the word “pioneer,” and the kind of colonialism it both connotes and denotes

 

Now this line I found very interesting for its use of colonialism.

A policy by which a nation maintains or extends its control over foreign dependencies

I would not consider myself foreign to downtown, I have been here for a long time and yes, there were people here before me, and there were people here before them. But the fact remains, I am here now, but colonialism is control over foreign dependencies. My home is at 103 Mulberry Street in Over the Rhine, a local, but you said you were from....Northside? or perhaps that was Nate, regardless

I do not live downtown. Do I need to live downtown to talk about it? Why or why not?

Foreign-Of, characteristic of, or from a place or country other than the one being considered

 

Ok, I did grow up in Amberly Village but does that mean I can never move out of that house (mom would take issue) because I would be moving somewhere else where someone has been before me? Well my brother did, he moved to Mainville Oh (nice house by the way, I sold it to him) and there was a farm there before. Is that what we should all do? Or are you saying there are white neighborhoods and black ones, or jewish ones like Amberly that the poor white appalachian family from Pineville Ky (and dorton branch, they couldnt afford to live in town) who can define poor better than anyone should not mix with? What about the people who do say, I am not moving into OTR, that is a black neighborhood, or that is a poor neighborhood, do you have problems with them?

 

Assuming you always lived in (and lets just say Northside for arguments sake) Northside. Were you born in that community so that you can with certanty say you are a native?

"Being such by birth or origin" Native

or were you defining it by the racial make up of the community as it existed in the past? Is the inverse true in that a black person should not move into a predominantly white neighborhood, or a christian should not move into a jewish neighborhood? Or keep the poor out of Mt. Adams (hey, I was poor when I was renting an efficiency on Oregon)

 

Cincinnati is all of ours, I was born in Cincinnati but I welcome people from everywhere to live in our community so that they can make it their community as well. Look at my other post even before I became aware of your thesis, I viewed it through an optimist eye, what eye did you use? "A Movement In Racism" But I will reiterate what I stated above, I do not know you well to call you a racist, but your thesis sounded like it to me.

 

And in closing, I was offered a scholarship to school because of my indian heritage. Did you notice the color of my skin next to my white wife's?

 

Hey mike I am 1/16 cherokee that makes us more native to this area then all these foreign invaders coming into our neighborhood but we welcome all who will make it a better place.  chahlahgeehee wohneesgee :-D

so that makes this an official pow wow.  Everyone, Walnut Hills is full of mansions broken up into many units with section 8 occupants, Mt. Auburn is the same way.  Bond Hill, and many other communities were once predominantly wealthy and now it is not-Did the poor have a right to move in? YES, did the rich have a right to move out? YES Does anyone of any race, color or tax bracket have the right to move anywhere they want? If they can afford to, YES. I can't afford to live in Indian Hill but you don't hear me complaining about it.  Crap, yes you do, I want to live in Indian Hill damn it!  Many moons ago my people were their first

Mr. Redmond, I appreciate that you have revoked calling me a racist, though you still insist my thesis "sounds that way."  Please explain how.  I'd really like to understand.  All you did was highlight that I used both the words "white" and "black."  Then you cite the OED definition.  Is merely mentioning race a problem in your mind?  Your point does not cohere (at least not yet).

actually pointing out the words white and black was not my point, it was the equivalencies that were being made.  As it is defining characteristics as determined by race that constitutes racism. I have no problem with mentioning race, but defining one race as being preexisting or another as taking over (pioneering) that was one of the points I was trying to make.  In my next post I will try and make it a bit more clear, I do have trouble articulating on these boards as well as I would like.

I have visited Cincy several times, and every time I drive through OTR (and of course downtown).  Being from Indianapolis, I am always amazed at the density and quality of the architecture.  We have it here too, but not in anywhere near the quantity you have there. 

 

As others have said, it is important to remember that the process is a long one... Indy had one of the most lifeless downtowns in the country (IMO) up until the mid-1990s.  At one point there was a pigeon problem, and the city literally hired people on the weekends to shoot pigeons on Monument Circle, in the middle of the damn city--and they could do it without bothering anyone, because there wasn't a soul down there.  I'm not kidding. 

 

My point isn't to make this about Indy AT ALL, but I do think most would agree that we have done a quite admirable job of rehabbing our downtown and making it inviting to both urbanites and suburbanites.  What many do not realize is that this process was begun in the early 1980s, and only really became successful in the last five or seven years.  That's a twenty-year turnaround.  It didn't happen quickly at all, and I'm sure it won't happen quickly in Cincinnati either.  The huge advantage you have over us is that you have SO much more potential--what seem to be endless stretches of historical, dense neighborhoods that I would LOVE to have here. 

 

Unfortunately there does seem to be a huge disconnect between the surburbs and the city there (at least from everything I read about Cincy), and the downtown businesses need the surburbanites to spend their  money in order to stay open... and they have to feel "safe" to do so.  Is there really that much crime, or does the local press just sensationalize it?  I went to the Cincy Zoo a year or so ago, and drove down Vine Street all the way from the zoo to downtown.  I admit feeling a little uneasy at one point on Vine St. in OTR because there were SO many people out on the street and walking in front of traffic... but I never felt like someone was going to carjack me... maybe just walk in front of me when I was going 40mph.  Are the suburbanites uneasy because of a real violent crime problem, or just because the majority of the faces they see are black?

    "Unfortunately there does seem to be a huge disconnect between the surburbs and the city there.."

 

    There is a whole generation that has never been to the core city. Sure, they have been to a Reds game, or to the Museum Center, or the zoo, and driven by on I-75 countless times, but other than that have never had a reason to go to the city. They grew up in the suburbs, shop in the suburbs, and work in the suburbs. If they can't drive there and find a parking space, they won't go there.

 

    "Are the suburbanites uneasy because of a real violent crime problem, or just because the majority of the faces they see are black?"

 

    Both. However, while there are some racial and crime issues, in my opinion the biggest issue is transportation. Suburbanites want to drive, not walk.

 

    "I never felt like someone was going to carjack me..."

 

    I did. I had a guy on Vine Street stick his head and arms in my car window. I started rolling the window up and was about to drive into cross-traffic and take my chances. Fortunately, he backed out. It was scary. I don't have a nice way to say it - there are some crazy people there.