^I have a feeling that it is a boilerplate response at this point.  It may be too early to start making concessions for some owners when others are ingenuinely touting their "proposals."

I think Coyne was responding specifically to the Kassouf proposal...he didn't really address Shaia's proposal, which seems to have more teeth to it.  But either way, he was basically saying that if they had proposed something realistic, they'd be viewed with a lot more respect.  Namely, don't say you're going to break ground on a project to build 400 units of housing in July when you haven't done the engineering work, applied for a single permit or pre-sold a single unit.

I think Coyne was responding specifically to the Kassouf proposal...he didn't really address Shaia's proposal, which seems to have more teeth to it.  But either way, he was basically saying that if they had proposed something realistic, they'd be viewed with a lot more respect.  Namely, don't say you're going to break ground on a project to build 400 units of housing in July when you haven't done the engineering work, applied for a single permit or pre-sold a single unit.

 

OK!  We weren't born yesterday!  Even your best PR person couldn't put a positive spin on that! 

 

Now, if he pulls this project off....I'll eat my keyboard!

I think we'd all eat our keyboards... Coyne said that the permits for Kassouf's first phase proposal would cost a significant amount of money (can't remember precisely, so I won't try to regurgitate it) and that it's that kind of commitment that would say to the commission that he's serious.  Really, to say that you're going to be ready to break ground this summer when this is the first the Planning Commission's heard of it is just ludicrous...

 

Didn't Stark say something similar?  Like he'd be ready to break ground this year over on W. 3rd & Superior?  Let's see those permit applications folks!

Stark first said he'd like to open for business in 2008, but now he says 2009. While he didn't say when he'd break ground, one can guesstimate it would take him at least a year to build it. He was able to build his first phase of Crocker Park (something like an 8-building downtown core) in a little more than a year.

I'm not holding my breath... But I am getting a little red in the face with all of these projected start and completion dates that are just not realistic!

Flats high-rise condo plan staying on track

Thursday, May 25, 2006

By Ken Prendergast

Brooklyn Sun Journal

 

CLEVELAND _ Developers of a proposed high-rise condominium complex are pressing ahead with their plans after their counteroffer to have their development included in the Flats East Bank neighborhood was rejected.

 

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority is acquiring 13 parcels of land on behalf of Flats developer Scott Wolstein. Port authority officials offered to pay Victor Shaia $1.2 million to acquire his 260-space parking lot at West 10th and Front streets. Shaia paid $2.3 million for the land in 1999.

 

If acquired, Wolstein proposes to keep the land a surface parking lot for his Flats development. Shaia countered by saying he would rework the design of his proposed development, called Lighthouse Landing, to include the parking Wolstein would need.

 

I appreciate your willingness to provide space to the Flats East Bank neighborhood development, John Loftus wrote in an April 24 letter to Shaia. Loftus is vice president of regional development for the port authority. Unfortunately, the port authority is not authorized to discuss non-monetary offers regarding this development. Accordingly, I must reject the offer as presented.

 

City Council has passed legislation defining the Flats East Bank development area for the port authority to conduct its land acquisitions. Thus, a port authority spokeswoman said her agency can't arbitrarily change which properties it will or won't acquire.

 

Shaia spokesman Tom Andrzejewski said he wasn't surprised at the rejection. Shaia has not met with Wolstein despite attempts to do so to ensure his $75 million Lighthouse Landing development can be included in the $220 million Flats neighborhood. But Shaia noted he has something going for his proposed use of the land that Wolstein doesn't _ Shaia already owns it.

 

We're going through the process by the numbers and by the book, Andrzejewski said. The project is being pursued through the normal channels.

 

The port authority has threatened taking land by eminent domain if a property owner refuses to sell. However, the agency trying to take the land has to demonstrate a public need will be served better by turning the land over to a new owner.

 

We continue to be willing to discuss our offer and to respond to a monetary counter offer, Loftus said in his letter.

 

Shaia said his plan for building 18-story and 22-story towers, plus 13 townhouses, 7,100 square feet of retail and a multi-level parking deck would be of greater benefit to the city than keeping the land a parking lot as Wolstein proposes.

 

Earlier this spring, a conceptual design for Lighthouse Landing was recommended by the Historic Warehouse District Development Corp.'s design review committee. The development is in the northwest corner of the Warehouse District. The Shaia Family's Walnut Grove Ventures Development Co. would develop Lighthouse Landing.

 

The next stop in the approval process is for the plans to be presented to the City Landmarks Commission. That commission has jurisdiction since the development would be in an historic district, Andrzejewski said.

 

An informational presentation of the plan was given to the landmarks commission in April, and was favorably received by commission members. Andrzejewski didn't have a timetable when detailed designs would be presented for city approval, but Shaia said recently that he wants to begin construction as early as next year.

Well, good for Shaia moving forward.  I would say that the City should be able to accept this proposal with the stipulation that steps towards ground-breaking must be done by "X" date.  Design proposals and approvals, engineering & environmental studies, permit applications, etc.  If these deadlines are not met and the City deems the project to be insincere, then it will be subject to eminent domain in much the same way as the other properties.  Any reason why this couldn't happen?

^Only reason would be Wolstein's stubborness, as far as I can tell. He seems to think he really needs that surface parking lot.

 

Shaia said his plan for building 18-story and 22-story towers, plus 13 townhouses, 7,100 square feet of retail and a multi-level parking deck would be of greater benefit to the city than keeping the land a parking lot as Wolstein proposes.

 

 

cannot argue with that. funny timing, but good luck to him.

 

 

Regarding "Wolstein's stubborness" and that he "needs" the lot  ... 

He does not need the lot, he WANTS it (big difference).  What he does need are the properties west of 10th Street, but it's obvious that he does not need the Shaia lot.

 

If I was him, I would work with Shaia so that Shaia can pull off Lighthouse Landing.  These new residences would only help Wolstein's retail tenants.  Wolstein can't have everything and the rightful property owner (Shaia) should be able to to what they want. 

 

Also, if I was him, I'd try to get involved with developing the land to the north up to the lake (the Port Authority will eventually move).

Unfortunately, at this point, it's not up to Wolstein. The land acquisitions are on auto-pilot, set by city legislation. No one other than Shaia seems to want to switch it off for fear of creating an opening for other, less well-intentioned property owners to get their land taken out of the physical area that City Council has determined to be blighted.

 

I suspect what's going to happen is that the port authority will attempt to appropriate Shaia's land through eminent domain, and that Shaia could emerge victorious, still owning the land. That's not an enviable position for Wolstein, because Shaia could then pull his concessions to Wolstein, essentially saying "sorry pal, but you never even returned my phone calls." Another possibility is that a probate court judge could order the non-monetary settlement which Shaia has sought all along.

Another possibility is that Shaia and Wolstien are not as adversarial as they seem, but are constrained by the 'auto pilot' process.  It would be hard for Wolstein to embrace one developement within his boundaries while rejecting the others.  Let the Court decide which are legit (Shaia) and which are not (Kasouf).

Let the Court decide which are legit (Shaia) and which are not (Kasouf).

 

Or you could decide Sooner!  :wink:

I think I already did.

I think it's just about time this thread gets combined with the Flats East Bank thread.

To me, Lighthouse Landing is the most exciting thing I've heard about Downtown Cleveland in a while.  New high-rise towers on the Lakefront are exactly what Cleveland needs.  The layout is nice and the sketch makes the towers look like they'll be absolutely stunning!!  This may be a new landmark for Downtown.

 

I really hope it happens!  But, I would say that until we hear an official announcement, that we just don't know what will happen.  County records show that Shaia still owns the property and from what I hear, they are still working on something.

^i love that name-- "mr the man"

 

 

thanks ... it's meant to be funny!

I think it's just about time this thread gets combined with the Flats East Bank thread.

 

I have been going back and forth but I guess this is the "official" LL place to post.

 

This is fantastic news! In five years or so Dowtown Cleveland is going to be amazing. In the past, these type of projects were just pipe dreams. It's great to see that they are on there way to becoming reality.  :clap:

What is up with this? First Mister Good Day changes his name to Map Boy and now Wimwar changes his to 3231? Was this a joint decision between you two or just coincidence?

 

I was thinking of changing my name, too. But "Trax" sounds like something a heroin addict would have. There's always "NotBaldYet"!

 

What is "3231"?

A few PMs led to the name changes. 3231 is the address of my childhood home. --I'm not about to spend more than a couple of minutes thinking up a new name.

^ & total posts...

How many stories high was this tower slated to be? 

The first tower to be built was supposed to be 18 stories. The second phase was to be 22 stories.

The word "was" continues to be used.  Are these buildings no longer on the drawing board? 

I used "was" because I don't know yet what the new plan is. The best I can tell ya is that Wolstein liked the original LL plan, but has also talked about putting residential, offices or a hotel in at least the second tower. So the original Shaia plan may not necessarily be the new joint-development plan.

Understood, thanks for clarification.  In reading recent Dodge reports, I noticed this project showing up in planning news as four seperate 7 story structures. 

^LL or FEB?

Another question: remind me what a Dodge report is, please.

Dodge reports are informational "packets" sent to contractors to keep them up to speed on the status of almost every project for the market you are in.  From drywall repairs to projects such as Lighthouse Landing, they are in there.  They supply you with information such as bidders that are invited to bid, bid dates, details of project etc.  After a bidder/contractor/construction manager is selected, they then tell you who got the contract, and what other trades are still out for bid.  They also tell you if bid dates have been moved are adendums have been added or made to the project. 

So is the project open for bidding yet?

Questions: Is Wolstein's 400K office building, at the Waterfront Line curve, still on the drawing board?  If so, who's the leading prime tenant?  DFAS?  Baker Hostetler?

 

And if this office building is still viable, why are we talking taking away residential rooms for more offices in LL since, overall, the whole East Bank area under consideration is still is a very small area?

 

...just curious.

Questions: Is Wolstein's 400K office building, at the Waterfront Line curve, still on the drawing board?  If so, who's the leading prime tenant?  DFAS?  Baker Hostetler?

 

And if this office building is still viable, why are we talking taking away residential rooms for more offices in LL since, overall, the whole East Bank area under consideration is still is a very small area?

 

...just curious.

 

Good questions.  I would much rather see LL all residential or residential/hotel/hotel condo.  The flats will desperately need a hotel as each of our neighborhoods tries to create their own identities within downtown.

^ I don't think we will know the answers until the public announcement is made. IMO residential/hotel/hotel condo would be best. When selecting a hotel to stay in downtown, the views alone would be a major selling point. Same goes for the residential component.

Questions: Is Wolstein's 400K office building, at the Waterfront Line curve, still on the drawing board? If so, who's the leading prime tenant? DFAS? Baker Hostetler?

 

Yes on all three.

 

And if this office building is still viable, why are we talking taking away residential rooms for more offices in LL since, overall, the whole East Bank area under consideration is still is a very small area?

 

Because if you have housing AND offices, then the retail/restaurant component stays active and viable day and night. East 9th Street is pretty busy with people during the day, but rolls up its sidewalks at night and on weekends. The Warehouse District is decidely more active in the evenings/night/weekends, yet it still has some daytime activity thanks to a blend of office use (admittedly on a much smaller scale than East 9th).

 

So, combine a dense mix of office and housing, with a good sidewalk presence of retail, restaurants and cafe in the same district and it will rock 24/7. I think that's what Wolstein has in mind.

And if this office building is still viable, why are we talking taking away residential rooms for more offices in LL since, overall, the whole East Bank area under consideration is still is a very small area?

 

Because if you have housing AND offices, then the retail/restaurant component stays active and viable day and night. East 9th Street is pretty busy with people during the day, but rolls up its sidewalks at night and on weekends. The Warehouse District is decidely more active in the evenings/night/weekends, yet it still has some daytime activity thanks to a blend of office use (admittedly on a much smaller scale than East 9th).

 

So, combine a dense mix of office and housing, with a good sidewalk presence of retail, restaurants and cafe in the same district and it will rock 24/7. I think that's what Wolstein has in mind.

 

Good to hear regarding the Flats.

 

I was thinking with two vacant buildings on E 9, this could give developers an opportunity to redevelop the east ohio gas company and ATT buildings and add some residential life to this business corridor.  However, both of those properties would make BETTER hotels.

 

They are right in the heart of a commercial district and a developer wouldn't have to build a new building.

I think it's just about time this thread gets combined with the Flats East Bank thread.

 

to combine, yay or nay?

I think so.

seperate until we have 100% confirmation and see new renderings. 

separate ... Flats East Bank is such a big area, it makes sense to look at this one separately, since it's physically separated and the development is a different animal all together

 

KJP ... do you know when there will be new renderings or when the developers will solicit presales?

No.