Lol, How wonderful.  A "basketball" dream on thr river to go with a "football" dream on the lakefront.  

 

By the way, who was responsible for "the recently removed May Co. Building." referenced in the article.  The article needs to be renovated.

8 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

Lol, How wonderful.  A "basketball" dream on thr river to go with a "football" dream on the lakefront.  

 

 

Gets better than that.

Well come on already Ken 😃

Oh, I forgot the  "baseball" village in Gateway 

58 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

You're either blind or not paying attention because I see tons of building going on all around the city.

Yes, that is correct.  I was referring to downtown.

7 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Yes, that is correct.  I was referring to downtown.

As far as new construction I agree, though we both know we have atleast two buildings about to go up. However, there are a ton of rehab projects actively going on that we forget about due to all the other new construction being proposed. 

 

Two buildings actively getting remodeled on public square, one building just remodeled on Public Square just for examples. 

 

What I'm more excited to see is more proposals like Bolivar Ave where you get a 6-8 story apartment building infilled into some of these more industrial areas of downtown, creating whole new districts. 

 

Which reminds me, we have an entire mortgage company building out a remodel on the outskirts of downtown as we speak. 

Isn't the steam plant still used (and converted to natural gas)?

8 minutes ago, seicer said:

Isn't the steam plant still used (and converted to natural gas)?

 

Cleveland Thermal's gas boilers are at their plant on Hamilton and 18th. The coal powered Canal Road Steam Plant was closed when the switch to natural gas was made ~4 years ago. Cleveland Thermal still owns the Canal Road facility. 

39 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Yes, that is correct.  I was referring to downtown.

You keep mentioning the lack of building compared to peer cities. Which cities are you referring to?

I was sure they were going to announce the new Tower City tenants.

42 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

Cleveland Thermal's gas boilers are at their plant on Hamilton and 18th. The coal powered Canal Road Steam Plant was closed when the switch to natural gas was made ~4 years ago. Cleveland Thermal still owns the Canal Road facility. 

 

Thanks! I noticed the Canal Road site was still active the other weekend. I just looked it up and it still controls steam distribution for half of downtown. I wonder if that will eventually shift to the Hamilton Avenue site.

If they want Amtrak at Tower City, now is the time to push.  Hope they can get CVSR in there, too!

They still had 20-30 years to make this announcement. Why today? This is stupid. 

3 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

Granted, this is a dream, but dreams have to start somewhere.  This may not be as far fetched as it seems.  Downtown still has a demand for residential that shows no signs of letting up.  

 

I agree with you - and I'm bullish on Downtown and Cleveland in general...

 

But this seems like a lofty vision that they put out their to take pressure off of themselves. Fact is, they don't even own much of this land, and already gave themselves an out(s) vis-a-vis timing and "market dependent" decisions in the later phases. 

Did it mention which, if any, of these buildings would be for Rocket Mortgage’s expansion? Assuming one of them are, I would figure that it, plus the new courthouse and Cliffs, would be enough to move up the 25-30 year timeline.

Let's be real here. I think maybe a building or two for rocket mortgage's expansion but that is it. This is still Cleveland.

WE are the ones with all the plans but there are NO cranes in downtown Cleveland as we speak. Whatever happened to city club apts -

let's see they were supposed to break ground last November, then in February, then a dodge report said may, and so forth & forth and this is the middle of September.  WE Don't do well in Cleveland on grandiose plans ( like almost - nothing )   Let's see how many iterations of Lakefront Development have we seen since Jane Campbell.  How about Stark's Peszt.  How about Jacob's Nautica Development - What is happening there besides plans, how about Stark's 7 year Nucleus ( what will happen if he don't get the TMUD - nothing will happen. How about the centennial.  The list goes on and on.   And  Let's not get excited about Kassouf's plan for Erieview Tower ( W Hotel ). Check Kassouf's track record first before we get excited.  On Bedrock I think a couple buildings get built and that's only because this is Danny Gilbert ( and he is a doer in Detroit). Remember Gilbert Fleeced us on the shiny new casino.    

Hey@simplythislet's not forget the numerous plans for Scranton Peninsula over the past 30+years. 

Yeah, you wouldn't want to get too get excited or you might get hurt by....what? And Gilbert fleeced you...how? You sound like a jilted lover over...a real estate development?? Maybe following real estate developments isn't for you. Most don't succeed not just here but everywhere. And megaprojects are especially hard to do. Doesn't mean they're not worth trying and enjoying watching the trials and tribulations these projects go through. It's interesting to learn from the failures as well as the successes, even if you invested some money in them which few of us do. Either way, enjoy the wins and the losses. You'll enjoy life better.

@simplythisFortunately the viability of this project has nothing to do with past failed plans that weren’t even developed by Bedrock. There is no failed plan debt that has to be paid off. Bedrock gets to start fresh and sink or swim with this project all on their own.

 

Bedrock riverfront joins downtown lakefront in mega-planning

By Ken Prendergast / September 15, 2021

 

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

A century ago, the city of Cleveland was eager to work with the private railroads to replace its undersized, outdated lakefront train station with a glamorous new downtown terminal. The new lakefront station would be a key component of its ambitious Group Plan designed by Daniel Burnham to remake the central business district into a setting of beautiful public buildings built along a park-like mall.

 

MORE

https://neo-trans.blog/2021/09/15/bedrock-riverfront-joins-downtown-lakefront-in-mega-planning/

 

5 hours ago, marty15 said:

They still had 20-30 years to make this announcement. Why today? This is stupid. 

Substantively, I agree.  Yea, I took the time to watch the whole video to find out what was going on.  It had the look of an infomercial.

 

Why today?  This "major development news" (as Cleveland.com sarcastically headlined) was a couple things, IMO.   One, an effort by Bedrock to motivate sales for some of the percentage of land that they don't own on site at present. They've got to control the land to even talk about a mega project on the site.  Two, why not throw the kitchen sink out at potential stakeholders that might be willing to "partner" with Bedrock in order to become players in something big? - with one of those partners being the feds through possible infrastructure money that may be out there soon.

 

This  visionary, inclusive, game-changing  project is "subject to market conditions" and should only take about 25-30 years, eh?  That's pretty underwhelming.  I'm always 100% for any development project for Cleveland - but,  this is public relations and little more as the outgoing mayoral regime gives its blessing.   If the project had specific short term goals, financing,  defined stakeholder partners - and a more optimistic timeline- we could start getting excited.  Big dreams start with ideas and conversations -  but,  this development news is strictly in that realm.   Having said that, I wish Bedrock all the best in making some magic on the riverfront. 

6 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Bedrock riverfront joins downtown lakefront in mega-planning

By Ken Prendergast / September 15, 2021

Maybe I misunderstood, but with the discussion of Brightline's development around stations to capture value, is that to suggest that they might be a partner with bedrock in some of this to help cover some operating costs in Cleveland?

5 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

Maybe I misunderstood, but with the discussion of Brightline's development around stations to capture value, is that to suggest that they might be a partner with bedrock in some of this to help cover some operating costs in Cleveland?

 

Bedrock wants the multimodal station at Tower City but the city wants it on the lakefront because that's where all their planning for it has focused. Cities usually don't pivot very quickly or at all. I don't know if Bedrock is going after Amtrak or Brightline but both are in play. Presumably, Bedrock is going after Amtrak only because they are the only ones that have publicly made their intentions known at this time.  But if Amtrak stays on the lakefront, and if Brightline is serious about serving Cleveland, there is an opportunity for Brightline to serve Tower City and be a part of the development mix in some way.

I'm hoping that the project actually becomes a reality- it looks like an updated version of what Forest City proposed before but this time is focusing on dwelling units more than office space.  

@KJP are we still getting a bomb?  Your recent article was great and very informative but really just had firecrackers.  I understand this whole Bedrock thing is a long term process but I thought you were alluding to a major development that was going to kick off soon related to Tower City or the surroundings.  Maybe I am reading too much into your original post.  In any event love the well thought out analysis which is much more appreciated than knee jerk negativity of certain forum members (including me to an extent).

Edited September 16, 20213 yr by Htsguy

Sorry to disappoint. I think when I heard that Bedrock is trying to pull the intermodal hub plan away from the lakefront, I was more intrigued about that than I probably should have been.

 

And like I've said, the TMUD applications this year and in coming years are going to be fascinating to see. This year may offer some surprises, but considering the long lead times in planning, due diligence, assembly of financing, etc., next year and the years after are going to lay out some stunners for us all to see, including probably a few deliverables of the lakefront and riverfront plans.

28 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I'm hoping that the project actually becomes a reality- it looks like an updated version of what Forest City proposed before but this time is focusing on dwelling units more than office space.  

3 MILLION SQUARE FEET OF OFFICE SPACE?! With no residential to go with it? Whew That sounds like it would’ve been a 9-5 mall for sure. Kind of glad this didn’t get built as is it needed to be tweaked anyway. 

7 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

3 MILLION SQUARE FEET OF OFFICE SPACE?! With no residential to go with it? Whew That sounds like it would’ve been a 9-5 mall for sure. Kind of glad this didn’t get built as is it needed to be tweaked anyway. 

The future is residential for downtown' to thrive. 

Not to change 

9 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

3 MILLION SQUARE FEET OF OFFICE SPACE?! With no residential to go with it? Whew That sounds like it would’ve been a 9-5 mall for sure. Kind of glad this didn’t get built as is it needed to be tweaked anyway. 

 

In the 90's, the suburbs were en vogue.  Now it's downtown and central-city neighborhoods.  

23 minutes ago, KJP said:

Sorry to disappoint. I think when I heard that Bedrock is trying to pull the intermodal hub plan away from the lakefront, I was more intrigued about that than I probably should have been.

 

And like I've said, the TMUD applications this year and in coming years are going to be fascinating to see. This year may offer some surprises, but considering the long lead times in planning, due diligence, assembly of financing, etc., next year and the years after are going to lay out some stunners for us all to see, including probably a few deliverables of the lakefront and riverfront plans.

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but are there only a certain number of TMUD awards each year, as in major competition?

Brightline... that's a new one (at least to me). So Ken, if l understand you correctly you are saying there are two possibilities for increaseed rail service in Brightline or Amtrak. One or the other but not both, right? 

 

Ok, so as long as we're dreaming put me down for a Tower City rail hub and not the lakefront. The bones are already there plus a CVSR stop seems to work better at TC.

 

Who knows what if anything gets built. It's tough enough to get one development (Lakefront or Tower City) built, let alone two of them. And it sure doesn't bode well that both are looking to include rail AND to pull that off requires politicos to choose between one or the other. Those guys already vacillate too much. Forcing them to pick one and THEN as actually work with the developers doesn't inspire alot of optimism on my part. We shall see.

The lakefront should absolutely not be used for a transportation hub.  Tower City is the perfect place for that - it’s part of Cleveland’s great history and the bones of the infrastructure is already there.  
 

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

Brightline... that's a new one (at least to me). So Ken, if l understand you correctly you are saying there are two possibilities for increaseed rail service in Brightline or Amtrak. One or the other but not both, right? 

 

Ok, so as long as we're dreaming put me down for a Tower City rail hub and not the lakefront. The bones are already there plus a CVSR stop seems to work better at TC.

 

Who knows what if anything gets built. It's tough enough to get one development (Lakefront or Tower City) built, let alone two of them. And it sure doesn't bode well that both are looking to include rail AND to pull that off requires politicos to choose between one or the other. Those guys already vacillate too much. Forcing them to pick one and THEN as actually work with the developers doesn't inspire alot of optimism on my part. We shall see.

It could be both, especially if Amtrak does not add more CLE - Toledo - Chicago service. And that was NOT part of Amtrak’s recent proposals. That leaves a big opening for Brightline. (FYI - Brightline is the one running the new passenger rail on the Florida east coast, with plans to extend from Orlando to Tampa.)

 

Cleveland will be part of Amtrak’s expansion if Amtrak expands. Period. Even if OH pols screw up the 3C&D, there would still be increased service through CLE.  Even with that there could be substantial openings for Brightline to add service. 

 

Tower City seems like the obvious choice over a lakefront station. The biggest reason is the high level bridge over the river (red line viaduct was built for passenger rail), having all three rapid lines right there, and the CVSR connection (effectively impossible to get CVSR to the lakefront). It would cost more, but perhaps not by much if you need to reroute freight traffic to accommodate passenger rail on the lakefront. Tower City would also make it much easier to have a commuter rail station at University Circle (lakefront rail lines are not currently connected to the tracks that go the UC). Anyway, the choice seems obvious, but politicians constantly screw up important transit decisions like this so who knows. 

3 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

The lakefront should absolutely not be used for a transportation hub.  Tower City is the perfect place for that - it’s part of Cleveland’s great history and the bones of the infrastructure is already there.  
 

I’m not opposed to the lakefront having the transportation hub. I just think that Tower City would be better. It would breathe new life into it and make it sustainable

2 hours ago, cadmen said:

Brightline... that's a new one (at least to me). So Ken, if l understand you correctly you are saying there are two possibilities for increaseed rail service in Brightline or Amtrak. One or the other but not both, right? 

 

Both are possible. But in Ohio, Brightline is probably more likely because they won't ask for operating subsidies. We can discuss this further in the transportation thread.

I wonder if they’re announcing us now to try to get some infrastructure money to solidify the river banks.

If I recall correctly that has been the issue holding back development

I don't think CLE can sustain two major transit hubs right now. TC seems to be the obvious choice. Frankly, I'm not sure why the Haslams would even want the hub on the lakefront. Their plan is really stadium centric and feeds off connection to the stadium and the lake. I don't think the transit hub helps the lakefront plan much at all and it's a cost savings if they don't have to develop it.

 

TC on the other hand really, really does need the transit hub. It's built in an insular way that has no inherent draw except for the rail lines. I think about 80% of the times I've been in TC it was because I was boarding or disembarking the rapid downtown, and I bet that's true for most people on this forum. Without transit, TC is just a way bigger and less nice arcade. I think TC can even sustain and benefit from multiple rail operators. If Brightline and Amtrak both operate lines through TC, you'll have a lot more passengers with an hour to kill in TC after taking Amtrak from Buffalo/Pittsburgh and transferring to Brightline to get to Chicago or Detroit. Amtrak and Brightline would probably also benefit because they would become convenient connections for each other in addition to competitors. I really hope Amtrak does get relocated to TC because it seems so obvious that TC will hugely benefit from the transit hub being there while the lakefront development really doesn't need it at all.

 

When some sort of land bridge gets built (I say when because I really believe it eventually will), Tower City to FE/the lake will be a sub 10 minute walk. Having two interstate transit centers within fifteen minutes of walking distance would be ludicrous. I really hope Bedrock people are on the phone with the Haslams right now trying to make a deal, because TC really needs a transit center to be its best self and having two transit centers is an absurd waste.

The biggest selling point of TC to Amtrak should be the fact that it is already the transit hub, with a direct rail connection to the airport.

2 minutes ago, X said:

The biggest selling point of TC to Amtrak should be the fact that it is already the transit hub, with a direct rail connection to the airport.

Plus TC really is more connected to the rest of downtown (offices, significant residential and hotels, Prog Field and Rocket which are used more than First Engery) than a Lakefront hub.

 

8 minutes ago, X said:

The biggest selling point of TC to Amtrak should be the fact that it is already the transit hub, with a direct rail connection to the airport.

I think a good argument could be made for either location. 

49 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think a good argument could be made for either location. 

Out of curiosity, what is the good argument for the Lakefront location?  

10 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Out of curiosity, what is the good argument for the Lakefront location?  

A lakefront location could be designed to extent The Mall over the Shoreway and rail tracks and can help spur additional lakefront development.  Additionally, if RTA unifies its rail fleet, then there could be direct links from a lakefront site to the airport.  A rail link from airport to convention center would be a great amenity as well. 

17 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

Out of curiosity, what is the good argument for the Lakefront location?  

 

It can be scaled up gradually as high-quality rail infrastructure accesses the site from all of the directions and routes that Amtrak wants to serve. If they want to expand service on their existing routes with another train or two in the next few years (such as their Buffalo and Pittsburgh routes to New York City), they can do it with a relatively small amount of capital investment to the infrastructure (including a track or two at the station for trains to layover here between runs).

 

Then, if they want to add trains to the route to Columbus and Cincinnati in the next five years or so, Amtrak can add another track or two at the station, expand the station building and build a connecting track southeast of downtown to reroute a dozen daily freight trains off the lakefront to free up capacity.

 

Then, if they want to add trains on the route to Toledo and Detroit in the next 5-10 years, Amtrak can either add a third track to the NS mainline west of Cleveland or expand capacity to reroute a half-dozen or freight trains a day to a parallel NS route. And so on....

 

By comparison, there are no railroad tracks into Tower City/Cleveland Union Terminal (and haven't been since the late 1970s), just transit tracks that are incompatible for use by Amtrak (or Brightline) due to their sharp curvatures and lateral/vertical clearances. So everything has to be rebuilt from scratch to return passenger trains there. But that's what Brightline is doing with its services in Florida and LA-Las Vegas -- building from scratch to bring trains traveling at up to 125 mph along those routes. If you've never ridden Brightline, I highly recommend it. Brightline is a part of Florida East Coast Industries which is a transportation-real estate development conglomerate. Here's what they're doing in Florida......

 

 

 

And here's a video overview of construction work that's well underway to extend service north to Orlando. Tampa is next.......

 

 

Put the station(s) at Tower City and just complete the Waterfront Line.

Where should the station for the hyperlink be? Lakefront or Tower City?

20 hours ago, Growth Mindset said:

Where should the station for the hyperlink be? Lakefront or Tower City?

Not sure if you were joking or not, but there are alot of laugh reacts on this too. I will say NOACA is still seriously moving forward on their hyperloop plan from 2019. The feasibility study they started then on a PIT-CLE-CHI line supposedly came back that it's good and would generate substantial traffic (I forget the exact numbers, but they announced it at the annual conference last week). I think that would be best at TC for the same reasons I think Amtrak/Brightline would be best at TC - it's already the heart of Cleveland public transportation network.

On 9/17/2021 at 9:02 AM, KJP said:

 

It can be scaled up gradually as high-quality rail infrastructure accesses the site from all of the directions and routes that Amtrak wants to serve. If they want to expand service on their existing routes with another train or two in the next few years (such as their Buffalo and Pittsburgh routes to New York City), they can do it with a relatively small amount of capital investment to the infrastructure (including a track or two at the station for trains to layover here between runs).

 

Then, if they want to add trains to the route to Columbus and Cincinnati in the next five years or so, Amtrak can add another track or two at the station, expand the station building and build a connecting track southeast of downtown to reroute a dozen daily freight trains off the lakefront to free up capacity.

 

Then, if they want to add trains on the route to Toledo and Detroit in the next 5-10 years, Amtrak can either add a third track to the NS mainline west of Cleveland or expand capacity to reroute a half-dozen or freight trains a day to a parallel NS route. And so on....

 

By comparison, there are no railroad tracks into Tower City/Cleveland Union Terminal (and haven't been since the late 1970s), just transit tracks that are incompatible for use by Amtrak (or Brightline) due to their sharp curvatures and lateral/vertical clearances. So everything has to be rebuilt from scratch to return passenger trains there. But that's what Brightline is doing with its services in Florida and LA-Las Vegas -- building from scratch to bring trains traveling at up to 125 mph along those routes. If you've never ridden Brightline, I highly recommend it. Brightline is a part of Florida East Coast Industries which is a transportation-real estate development conglomerate. Here's what they're doing in Florida......

 

 

 

And here's a video overview of construction work that's well underway to extend service north to Orlando. Tampa is next.......

 

 

There’s something to be said, too, for the poetry that would be Brightline operating in Cleveland: Florida East Coast Industries is the successor to Florida East Coast Railway, founded by Henry Flagler. Flagler, of course, was one of John D. Rockefeller’s partners in Standard Oil, who eventually left Cleveland to start Florida East Coast (and develop much of Florida from St. Augustine to Key West). In a sense, he was one of Cleveland’s first snowbirds 😉  How neat would it be for the modern incarnation of Flagler’s railroad to operate in a station overlooking the site of his original refinery “where it all began”?

 

I’ve always felt there should be more recognition for Rockefeller in Cleveland’s story, and vice versa - he’s so synonymous with New York. But even more so for Henry Flagler. 
 

Edited September 17, 20213 yr by brtshrcegr

i guess its nice that bedrock and brightline both released stalinesque 25yr plans with cleveland in mind. we'll see when they get around to it. messed up amtrak will more than likely muddle it's way into town first, which is better anyway.

3 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

i guess its nice that bedrock and brightline both released stalinesque 25yr plans with cleveland in mind. we'll see when they get around to it. messed up amtrak will more than likely muddle it's way into town first, which is better anyway.

 

I prefer to think of them more as Deng-esque 5yr plans, that way we might actually be in business. 

New tenants for Tower City...