February 18, 20232 yr Does anyone have Bedrock's presentation to the city planning commission? I can't find it.
February 18, 20232 yr 21 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said: "Bedrock officials outlined a schedule in which a master development agreement with the city would be finalized this summer and approved this fall." So this means come summer, we will all know exactly what the total plan is? Including building renderings, heights, infrastructure changes? That seems like an awful lot to design by summer, but you won't hear me complain! If this is a 25-30 year buildout I cannot imagine they will have any idea what the buildings will look like, including heights, if a general site plan is approved this fall. Maybe one or two buildings in say a Phase 1. Over the next couple of decades the market will dictate what types of buildings (residential or commercial or maybe even public use) will sprout up and what makes economic sense for the era. We have seen development markets change in the blink of eye so how can you have a detailed buildout plan when you are talking about a development that will take a generation. Edited February 18, 20232 yr by Htsguy
February 18, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, Ethan said: Does anyone have Bedrock's presentation to the city planning commission? I can't find it. Go to Cleveland city planning commission on YouTube. Yesterday's meeting. It starts at 1hr 56min.
February 18, 20232 yr This criticism is not limted to Cleveland, but I find it absolutely mind-boggling that a project of this relatively limited size would take 15-20+ years. There is something fundamentally broken about our country with the time, expense and ultimately lack of vision and leadership required for these projects. Think about all the larger developments witin towns and cities, local, nationwide, globally, that have been developed in fractions of fractions of the time and expense. Fiften-twenty years for a few dozen acres of cosmetic improvements and a few new buildings? Get the f out of here! And people in Ohio City are worrying about more trucks driving through? This isn't working. Development shouldn't be this slow, certainly not for projects such as these. I'm not saying Arab countries and Chinese regions using slave labor to fast track new cities is the right approach, but we did build the Empre State Building in less than a year. Certainly there has got to be a middle ground. Edited February 18, 20232 yr by TBideon
February 18, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said: "Bedrock officials outlined a schedule in which a master development agreement with the city would be finalized this summer and approved this fall." So this means come summer, we will all know exactly what the total plan is? Including building renderings, heights, infrastructure changes? That seems like an awful lot to design by summer, but you won't hear me complain! I'm sure it'll be just the overarching plan agreement like "here's the scope of everything in the plan and here is who is responsible for what part between the city and developers." And included in that would be details of plans like "here is where a building can go and also over here too." No way they would be designing renderings/height/sqft/exteriors/etc of hypothetical buildings that will begin construction next decade. So we should probably get use to seeing these generic massings for a bit at least in my opinion.
February 18, 20232 yr 52 minutes ago, TBideon said: This criticism is not limted to Cleveland, but I find it absolutely mind-boggling that a project of this relatively limited size would take 15-20+ years. There is something fundamentally broken about our country with the time, expense and ultimately lack of vision and leadership required for these projects. Think about all the larger developments witin towns and cities, local, nationwide, globally, that have been developed in fractions of fractions of the time and expense. Fiften-twenty years for a few dozen acres of cosmetic improvements and a few new buildings? Get the f out of here! And people in Ohio City are worrying about more trucks driving through? This isn't working. Development shouldn't be this slow, certainly not for projects such as these. I'm not saying Arab countries and Chinese regions using slave labor to fast track new cities is the right approach, but we did build the Empre State Building in less than a year. Certainly there has got to be a middle ground. Exactly. I know Egypt is currently constructing an entire new capital city because Cairo is already too congested and overcrowded, with the population expected to double by 2050. Granted, that is also a 20-30 year project... but that is an entire damn city, not a riverfront project.
February 18, 20232 yr 4 hours ago, mrnyc said: it’s litt! Bedrock’s Tower City riverfront expansion concept elicits praise, big questions from city planning commission Updated: Feb. 17, 2023 By Steven Litt, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio — Members of Cleveland’s City Planning Commission loved seeing a presentation Friday of the Bedrock vision for a huge expansion of Tower City Center that would include a new, 12-acre park on the Cuyahoga River. more: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/02/bedrocks-concept-for-tower-city-center-expansion-elicits-praise-big-questions-from-city-planning-commission.html 2 hours ago, Ethan said: Does anyone have Bedrock's presentation to the city planning commission? I can't find it. If you click on the Cleveland.com story in the quoted message above you, they attached the slides from the presentation to the article.
February 18, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, TBideon said: This criticism is not limted to Cleveland, but I find it absolutely mind-boggling that a project of this relatively limited size would take 15-20+ years. There is something fundamentally broken about our country with the time, expense and ultimately lack of vision and leadership required for these projects. Think about all the larger developments witin towns and cities, local, nationwide, globally, that have been developed in fractions of fractions of the time and expense. Fiften-twenty years for a few dozen acres of cosmetic improvements and a few new buildings? Get the f out of here! And people in Ohio City are worrying about more trucks driving through? This isn't working. Development shouldn't be this slow, certainly not for projects such as these. I'm not saying Arab countries and Chinese regions using slave labor to fast track new cities is the right approach, but we did build the Empre State Building in less than a year. Certainly there has got to be a middle ground. Not to mention, how much higher will construction costs be in 10-15-25 years? I refuse to get excited about this plan.
February 18, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, Mogradal said: Go to Cleveland city planning commission on YouTube. Yesterday's meeting. It starts at 1hr 56min. Already watched it. 47 minutes ago, BuckeyeNative said: If you click on the Cleveland.com story in the quoted message above you, they attached the slides from the presentation to the article. Thanks, it's a good start, but I'd still like the actual presentation. It's higher quality, easier to examine, and better as a basis for discussing with people.
February 20, 20232 yr Anything behind this dumpster being outside of tower city? Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
February 20, 20232 yr @MyPhoneDeadPerhaps they are throwing in the towel on the national park built on top of the former fountain?
February 20, 20232 yr Author Redirect from the visualizations thread... On 2/19/2023 at 12:01 PM, LibertyBlvd said: Unless they have someone lined up to fill those 500 foot buildings, it's just speculation. And I assume the nuCLEus site will be developed first. I'd really like to see a 500+ foot building there. Both 500-footers are proposed to be apartment buildings, so they would be built on speculation no matter what. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 20, 20232 yr Does anyone think this development project could be used to spur retail development, more specifically the amount and quality of retail that Tower City did so in the late 80s
February 20, 20232 yr 4 minutes ago, 8MPG said: Does anyone think this development project could be used to spur retail development, more specifically the amount and quality of retail that Tower City did so in the late 80s Absolutely. Anytime you add more residents within a very short walk to retail you'll see it help shops. Especially when you have space for such a wide variety of retail in there you can see residents going weekly to pick up things. And with two 500' towers (which I will believe it when I see it lol), that would easily add a ton of people. There could absolutely be additional restaurants/bars too around with a customer base that large getting added to the area. Not to mention an area close to the stadiums where they would also attract before/after event crowds.
February 20, 20232 yr Also, Landmark building will soon be vacated by SHW. I assume all or part of it will be a candidate for conversion to residential.
February 20, 20232 yr 39 minutes ago, 8MPG said: Does anyone think this development project could be used to spur retail development, more specifically the amount and quality of retail that Tower City did so in the late 80s I think it’s something interesting to consider, and perhaps the Riverfront development could complement Tower City. For example, potential retail options on the street-level riverfront vacancies could be tailored to the new apartment residents while Tower City could be a mix of transit-centric retail and high-end retail with the new influx of high-income individuals.
February 20, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, 8MPG said: Does anyone think this development project could be used to spur retail development, more specifically the amount and quality of retail that Tower City did so in the late 80s I would say no chance at all. Tower City/the Avenue was a once-in-a-lifetime shot. Edited February 20, 20232 yr by TBideon
February 20, 20232 yr I wasn't referring to this development bringing back Tower City to it's glory days but creating a new shopping experience in the new neighborhood that is proposed. Obviously I hope there will be some spill over into tower City but one could hope with the size of this project it could bring high end retail back downtown (with first floor retail in all these new buildings) and then spill over to tower City. But originally I was thinking this development might have the size, deep pockets and development power to bring high end retail back downtown.
February 20, 20232 yr I'm sure it will help, but to support retail you need to be thinking in the thousands to low tens of thousands of people in a given area to support neighborhood retail like convenient and grocery stores For more regional scale (mall or power center) retail, you need to be thinking high 10's of thousands to low hundreds of thousands. And these rules of thumbs were pre-Amazon. Those numbers are only getting worse, if anyone really knows what they are anymore.
February 21, 20232 yr Author 8 hours ago, TBideon said: I would say no chance at all. Tower City/the Avenue was a once-in-a-lifetime shot. Disagree. What was left of the shopping demand downtown that was satisfied since the turn of the prior century by Euclid Avenue stores was redirected to Tower City and to a lesser extent the Galleria. Soon after, the shopping and office demand was shifted to the I-271 Corridor after it was widened in the mid-90s from six lanes to 10, added the Harvard interchange and spurred a ton of development along it, with residential pushed into Geauga and Summit counties. Before that, people used to park along the driveways at the Green Road rapid station and on the sidestreets near stations farther west because they couldn't find any open parking spaces. Look on the 1993 Google Earth historic images if you don't believe me. Now the Rapid runs half-empty at rush hours. When we kept expanding farther out, no needed to go downtown anymore for anything except a sporting event or Playhouse Square. Maybe Tower City and the Galleria were brief shooting stars, but in reality they were the finale of a century-plus-long era of downtown shopping. We need a lot more bodies with fat wallets downtown to restart some retail. Tower City and other residential projects will need to more than double the current population of downtown and surrounding neighborhoods to offset remote working which has likely erased the residential gains of the past 20-plus years. As long as we continue to support and subsidize sprawl, downtown retail isn't coming back. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 20232 yr 51 minutes ago, KJP said: Tower City and other residential projects will need to more than double the current population of downtown and surrounding neighborhoods to offset remote working which has likely erased the residential gains of the past 20-plus years. I'm curious exactly the difference in a mostly office worker downtown vs heavy residential downtown. Sure you can cram way more office workers in the same space as residential since workers only need an 8x8 cube during the day but they are only there during the workday. Maybe a happy hour here or there but I assume the vast majority of office workers jet by 5pm most days. So sure you miss the huge lunch crowds with remote work but for grocery stores/bars/etc would they really need to 1:1 the count of office workers to show a difference? I would make the argument you need less for the "daily retail" to have a customer base (I'm talking grocery stores/dry cleaners/restaurants/etc). I wouldn't think those types of retail could survive on lunch rushes alone/at all.
February 21, 20232 yr We have a separate thread for downtown retail, please keep posts here regarding actual developments. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 21, 20232 yr 6 hours ago, dwolfi01 said: I'm curious exactly the difference in a mostly office worker downtown vs heavy residential downtown. Sure you can cram way more office workers in the same space as residential since workers only need an 8x8 cube during the day but they are only there during the workday. Maybe a happy hour here or there but I assume the vast majority of office workers jet by 5pm most days. So sure you miss the huge lunch crowds with remote work but for grocery stores/bars/etc would they really need to 1:1 the count of office workers to show a difference? I would make the argument you need less for the "daily retail" to have a customer base (I'm talking grocery stores/dry cleaners/restaurants/etc). I wouldn't think those types of retail could survive on lunch rushes alone/at all. Look at Europes central cities. Sure there is an elevated amount of commercial, but residential is still the primary.
February 21, 20232 yr Quote they are only there during the workday. Maybe a happy hour here or there but I assume the vast majority of office workers jet by 5pm most days. You'd be accurately describing DT Cleveland of the 60s and 70s. . .to a tee.
February 21, 20232 yr So after watching the presentation to the city planning committee and thinking about it for a week I'm significantly more bullish on this design. I still think the issues I raised (mainly closing Huron) are valid, but after seeing the plans I have a better understanding of the positive aspects of the design (such as Huron plaza and it's switchback pedestrian trails), and now feel comfortable claiming the positives will outweigh the negatives. I've also given more thought to redirecting traffic onto Prospect, and I think it is manageable with some forethought from the city. The parking on Prospect should probably be removed, and I actually think traffic would flow better if the remaining legs of Huron are exit only on to Superior / Ontario (so at least partially one way). (I could be easily convinced out of that position though). I also agree with the person on the planning committee that raised concerns about finding a new route for commercial trucks coming from Whiskey Island. Other thoughts: I'm still not huge on rerouting Canal, I understand why they want to do it, but I'd prefer to leave more greenspace near the river. I also think there's a good chance that if this is done well I might wonder why I ever thought that. While I love the idea of bringing the CVSR up to Cleveland, and think the old B&O terminal makes a lot of sense, I also think it's imperative that the railroad doesn't act as a wall through the riverfront greenspace. That means the rails need to be trivial for pedestrians to cross at any point in the park space. No fences or unnecessary bollards preventing easy crossing. My reading of the planning documents is that the Eagle road extension will be a car road. Can anyone confirm? Hopefully this doesn't become a major, high-traffic route (as that will make the portion of the boardwalk near the rerouted Canal feel like a fancy sidewalk). Ideally any parking garage entrances are kept off of Canal.
February 21, 20232 yr I actually don't like B&O as a station. Thinking as a tourist staying downtown - I'd like access to the train station from downtown without having to find it in the flats - plus, it'd add an additional quarter mile walk from any of the hotels. But i don't feel that strongly about it.
February 21, 20232 yr On 2/18/2023 at 10:55 AM, TBideon said: I find it absolutely mind-boggling that a project of this relatively limited size would take 15-20+ years. The Tower City Riverfront plan is 35 acres, potentially 12 high rises, new parks, built on top of/around active train tracks, and requiring new roads and riverfront bulkheads. I have no idea on the cost of all this, but it's gotta be at least a few billion dollars. In what world is this a project of a relatively limited size? For reference, Hudson Yards in NYC is 28 acres, 16 buildings, also on top of train tracks and they are projecting 22 years from development plan approvals to end of construction (2005-2027). This development has larger buildings and probably some other challenges because it's in NYC, but it also has the benefit of being one of the world's strongest real estate markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Yards_(development) I think if the Riverfront plan is realized in 15-20 years, it will be an amazing accomplishment!
February 22, 20232 yr I just received a notice in the mail that PNC is closing its Tower City branch in May.
February 22, 20232 yr On 2/21/2023 at 1:14 PM, Whipjacka said: I actually don't like B&O as a station. Thinking as a tourist staying downtown - I'd like access to the train station from downtown without having to find it in the flats - plus, it'd add an additional quarter mile walk from any of the hotels. But i don't feel that strongly about it. I agree. It needs to go in to Tower City.
February 22, 20232 yr 18 minutes ago, ExPatClevGuy said: I'm responding to posts about closing down Huron Rd behind Tower City (so trucks will only spend 30 seconds to go another way) and the suggestion about removing parking form Prospect Ave altogether as mentioned above in this thread. Did you mean to reply here instead? 23 hours ago, Whipjacka said: I actually don't like B&O as a station. Thinking as a tourist staying downtown - I'd like access to the train station from downtown without having to find it in the flats - plus, it'd add an additional quarter mile walk from any of the hotels. But i don't feel that strongly about it. I don't have particularly strong feelings either, but I don't think people looking to visit the national park will have a problem walking over to Canal Basin Park (they may want to regardless). I like the symbolism of it, and I'm guessing it will also double as a mini history / learning place similar to some in CVNP.
February 22, 20232 yr On 2/21/2023 at 12:14 PM, Whipjacka said: I actually don't like B&O as a station. Thinking as a tourist staying downtown - I'd like access to the train station from downtown without having to find it in the flats - plus, it'd add an additional quarter mile walk from any of the hotels. But i don't feel that strongly about it. Agree with this 100%. I think it’d be cool to turn B&O into some sort of historical museum to complement the rail expansion at Tower City, but not sure who would operate/pay for that.
February 23, 20232 yr Author Interesting that Bloomberg is covering it. But why is a "savior" needed? Cleveland Looks to an Unlikely Savior: a Long-Neglected River An ambitious project promises to transform the Cuyahoga riverfront with a mixed-use development designed by David Adjaye. But the city’s industrial past still haunts the area. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-22/cleveland-s-cuyahoga-riverfront-awaits-its-transformation?srnd=premium&utm "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 23, 20232 yr ^Yes, hehe, the author of the article obviously has not been keeping up with UO. They're the same old bs perceptions about Cleveland.
February 23, 20232 yr It's like ChatGPT wrote most of the article, and the author just moved a few sentences around here and there. And unless I'm having deja vu, I feel I've read this, certainly the negative parts, nearly verbatim before. “Downtown Cleveland’s regeneration is really tied to making it a residential neighborhood,” Yablonsky says. “It’s nascent now, but what Bedrock is proposing will take it from small scale to big scale.” Jesus wept. Maybe the author used Bing Chat for those sentences. Good seeing Higbees again. We miss you!
February 23, 20232 yr 3 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said: ^Yes, hehe, the author of the article obviously has not been keeping up with UO. They're the same old bs perceptions about Cleveland. Agreed. Just once I would like to see someone focus on the fact that Cleveland is projected to be one of the US cities least impacted by climate change. Developments like this are likely to attract residents and companies that will be looking to get away from the heat, disease and natural disasters that are likely to plaque many of the southern and western "boom" towns. Focusing on Cleveland's polluted rust belt past neglects the unique opportunity it faces in the future
February 23, 20232 yr It unfortunately takes time to change perceptions of people but it certainly is changing! Hell even locally I read comments sometimes of suburbanites who haven't left the suburbs in years still saying downtown is a crime-riden wasteland lol. Projects like this will certainly help change the image of the city. That and more events here that garner national attention. Getting visitors here will certainly help people see firsthand how nice this city has become
February 23, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said: Agreed. Just once I would like to see someone focus on the fact that Cleveland is projected to be one of the US cities least impacted by climate change. Developments like this are likely to attract residents and companies that will be looking to get away from the heat, disease and natural disasters that are likely to plaque many of the southern and western "boom" towns. Focusing on Cleveland's polluted rust belt past neglects the unique opportunity it faces in the future East Palestine doesn't help that image. I now wonder how perceptions of toxicity in Northeast Ohio's air, water, soil, and food will impact whether people continue to choose to come / stay here. We have a big problem on our hands, which calls for big solutions. Hopefully our collective response becomes a beacon for folks eager to solve big problems. In short, we can become the region that cares for itself through regenerative principles - Northeast Ohio already has that legacy - but boy, do we now have a long way to go. Edited February 23, 20232 yr by ASP1984
February 23, 20232 yr Can we keep this to discussion of Tower City/Riverview Development please? Thanks!
February 27, 20232 yr Being a fan of Cleveland, the Terminal Tower, and trains, I always thought the Tower City concourse would be a great location for a huge model train layout. Has something like this ever been done or even considered?
March 1, 20232 yr On 2/27/2023 at 10:07 AM, TMart said: Being a fan of Cleveland, the Terminal Tower, and trains, I always thought the Tower City concourse would be a great location for a huge model train layout. Has something like this ever been done or even considered? There was the Great Train Store that was located there in the mid 90s. That's probably the closest to that there's ever been outside the real trains that go and used to go there.
March 1, 20232 yr ^ oh right i 'memba that place. On 2/27/2023 at 10:07 AM, TMart said: Being a fan of Cleveland, the Terminal Tower, and trains, I always thought the Tower City concourse would be a great location for a huge model train layout. Has something like this ever been done or even considered? yeah absolutely cool idea -- tc would be perfect for an rta shop like the mta shop in grand central where they have a cool model train set running, gifts and small transit related exhibits and stuff.
March 8, 20232 yr It looks like the new Starbucks replacement is finally going in. They even set up some tables!
March 8, 20232 yr I’m starting to appreciate the organic lease out. Would love to see something like HomeGoods go in to add to the momentum.
March 9, 20232 yr I haven't been to Tower City in a while. How occupied is it at the moment? St. Patrick's day should bring some serious crowds to that area.
March 9, 20232 yr 14 minutes ago, KFM44107 said: I haven't been to Tower City in a while. How occupied is it at the moment? St. Patrick's day should bring some serious crowds to that area. It's in the same state of limbo it's been in for a while. A little less than half full up. Lots of small shops, few big stores with name recognition.
March 16, 20232 yr This photo from @MayDaytoday in the SW thread made me think “ the River looks really nice” and “that’s a riverfront begging to be developed” Lets make it happen! Edited March 16, 20232 yr by CleveFan
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