November 20, 2024Nov 20 16 hours ago, Ethan said: Hopefully Bedrock gets the full amount for this project. The Cavs / sports hospital facility is nice, but this is more the kind of thing I was hoping to see on the riverfront. Hopefully it can serve as an anchor for the rest of the proposed apartments / residences and can help push the later phases through the finish line! Personally I feel that Bedrock made sure the Training Facility was funded and started construction before the TMUD Applications were due to show the State that this is a real project and vision. Having shovels in the ground shows the State that they are serious about this and it's more than just pretty pictures and graphics. This to me is especially important due to Cleveland's track record with big TMUD funded projects (Centennial), even Erieview was struggling to get started and needed an outside developer.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 There is competition for Bedrock's TMUD application. Since this is in Columbus they might award for to the Columbus project. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/573-million-project-would-build-apartments-retail-on-downtown-columbus-parking-lots/ar-AA1uuPm9?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=3ef9a680f5664161c6dfffb561e750ba&ei=9
November 21, 2024Nov 21 It looks like they aren't quite requesting the max amount at 33 million. Are there any other projects requesting the max amount?
November 21, 2024Nov 21 3 minutes ago, simplythis said: There is competition for Bedrock's TMUD application. Since this is in Columbus they might award for to the Columbus project. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/573-million-project-would-build-apartments-retail-on-downtown-columbus-parking-lots/ar-AA1uuPm9?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=3ef9a680f5664161c6dfffb561e750ba&ei=9 With the track record of Dan Gilbert and Bedrock to get things accomplished, especially with what they've accomplished in Detroit, the Redevelopment of the May Building, the renovation of RoMo Fieldhouse, and the construction of the Training facility starting I think Dan Gilbert bodes well here. Combine that with the infrastructure work that has been done to make this a reality by the city I feel that this looks like a more viable project. The Columbus project kind of gives me NuCleus vibes, partially due to what it looks to accomplish scale wise and me not knowing the developers track record.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 Honestly, what this project reminds me of is the Wharf in Washington D.C, revitalizing a once desolate piece of waterfront land into a publicly accessible Waterfront neighborhood.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said: Honestly, what this project reminds me of is the Wharf in Washington D.C, revitalizing a once desolate piece of waterfront land into a publicly accessible Waterfront neighborhood. Ya I was thinking something similar, but more Bilbao in Spain. And old industrial city that was losing a lot of population and money, like us. Then starting in the mid 90s some serious effort was put into making their dead riverfront one of the best in the world with some incredible buildings and architects. Some follow up projects like major airport upgrades(we are starting those soon??) and a few new tram lines. It went from a city no one would consider visiting to a major tourist destination and is continuing to draw a lot of investment. It's tourism visitor numbers are up over 40X since 1995 and the city has won numerous urban planning awards. They had 1.6 million passengers at their airport in 1995, and 6.4 million last year. All started by a few riverfront buildings. Off topic rambling below. I honestly don't think we're too far off. If we had regular trains out to Cedar Point/Pro Football HOF/CVNP, to pair with the Rock Hall, orchestra, Playhouse Square, a great Art Museum marketing campaign(no one outside of Cleveland, and even most of Cleveland, knows how good it is), and a few other attractions that appeal to out of state and international tourists. Build these and the riverfront/lakefront out while the airport gets it's major upgrades. Work with United or another airline to become a hub or secondary hub and get 2 new international flights and a few new US destinations. Then start marketing.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: With the track record of Dan Gilbert and Bedrock to get things accomplished, especially with what they've accomplished in Detroit, the Redevelopment of the May Building, the renovation of RoMo Fieldhouse, and the construction of the Training facility starting I think Dan Gilbert bodes well here. Combine that with the infrastructure work that has been done to make this a reality by the city I feel that this looks like a more viable project. The Columbus project kind of gives me NuCleus vibes, partially due to what it looks to accomplish scale wise and me not knowing the developers track record. I agree with all the points you have made. My biggest fear is that the geniuses who do the scoring might just think that Gilbert is in a position to complete the project without this public subsidy.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 Don't forget Higbee's transformed to a casino and the planters/seating around his business downtown not to mention opening a call center in the heart of the city. Most midwestern cities would love to have his level of investment. He's here to make money, but Cleveland has definitely benefited too.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 Well... the temporary/Phase 1/only casino was a pretty sneak move. I certainly don't remember the voters voting for that place.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: the renovation of RoMo Fieldhouse Semantics, but this was funded by taxpayers (not the full amount but $70M out of $185M, Gateway contribution is now $94M after their recent work). Edited November 21, 2024Nov 21 by GISguy
November 21, 2024Nov 21 6 minutes ago, GISguy said: Semantics, but this was funded by taxpayers. Actually, the Cavs paid for more than 60% of the renovations.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 2 minutes ago, Htsguy said: Actually, the Cavs paid for more than 60% of the renovations. Even so, I don't want to give him all the credit for that project. It would've never happened without a massive amount of public support (and now an additional $24M in public subsidies).
November 21, 2024Nov 21 There was a group protesting the arena renovation, but I don't remember the details.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 31 minutes ago, GISguy said: Even so, I don't want to give him all the credit for that project. It would've never happened without a massive amount of public support (and now an additional $24M in public subsidies). It would never have happed at such a high level without Gilbert's dollars. Look at Buffalo, Columbus and Cincinnati arenas as examples. They wish they looked like RMF does today. Because of these investments, RMF is one of the busiest arenas in the country. Also, I'm fairly confident Higbees and May Company buildings would still be sitting empty like the centennial. Without his desire for urban development and partnership with the city and public, Cleveland would not be where it is today.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 30 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: There was a group protesting the arena renovation, but I don't remember the details. black contractors group
November 21, 2024Nov 21 57 minutes ago, newyorker said: It would never have happed at such a high level without Gilbert's dollars. Look at Buffalo, Columbus and Cincinnati arenas as examples. They wish they looked like RMF does today. Because of these investments, RMF is one of the busiest arenas in the country. Also, I'm fairly confident Higbees and May Company buildings would still be sitting empty like the centennial. Without his desire for urban development and partnership with the city and public, Cleveland would not be where it is today. Gilbert’s investments, like Higbee’s, May Company, and the FieldHouse, have undeniably improved Cleveland’s landscape. That said, it’s worth noting that the RMFH renovation relied heavily on taxpayer subsidies to reach its current level. It also raises questions about why additional fixes are needed so soon after the initial work—perhaps those could have been addressed during the original planning. When comparing Cleveland to Buffalo or Columbus, it’s important to consider that those cities don’t have NBA teams, which come with significantly higher franchise values and salary caps compared to NHL teams. Even mid-tier NBA franchises, like the Cavs, outpace the NHL’s top teams in value. It's nice to have new and fancy, but Gateway has zero money and the county and city are shuffling money around to keep our arena functioning. 44 minutes ago, Htsguy said: black contractors group The biggest hang-up came from the Greater Cleveland Congregations and city residents at large who were demanding more community benefits from the billionaire owner. It worked. --- But this is the riverfront thread, $40M in state money would be huge, the city granting the TIF also benefits him and the project. Hopefully both move the project forward. Edited November 21, 2024Nov 21 by GISguy Added link
November 21, 2024Nov 21 5 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: Honestly, what this project reminds me of is the Wharf in Washington D.C, revitalizing a once desolate piece of waterfront land into a publicly accessible Waterfront neighborhood. We can only hope it reaches part of the Wharf's success as it does offer all peoples access to walk the waterfront dock but the dock-adjacent buildings, while many with impressive designs by world-class architects, cater to a completely different population (the political and global elite) - no workforce housing in sight except the public housing a mile nearby - with the highest office price per square foot in DC and among the highest condo price per square foot - averaging $1,000 to 1,100 a square foot (some approaching waaay above that average). I like how our Riverfront planning caters to what is realistic and possible for the unique Cleveland market by recognizing the need for inclusive housing among all options - not just exclusive housing as in DC - and considerable public access areas with even more impressive urban vistas.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 6 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: With the track record of Dan Gilbert and Bedrock to get things accomplished, especially with what they've accomplished in Detroit, the Redevelopment of the May Building, the renovation of RoMo Fieldhouse, and the construction of the Training facility starting I think Dan Gilbert bodes well here. Combine that with the infrastructure work that has been done to make this a reality by the city I feel that this looks like a more viable project. The Columbus project kind of gives me NuCleus vibes, partially due to what it looks to accomplish scale wise and me not knowing the developers track record. Hopefuly the Columbus project will get a smaller award given the samller scale and how far along they are already (without TMUD). They are already on phase 3 of 5 with the very interesting adjacent elevate walkway and programming already well under way - what remains are some smaller apartment buildings that the weak claim are TMUD dependent. Hopefully the TMUD group recognizes the signifigance/impact of Phase 1 of our Riverfront and first awards the max to Gilbert. News: In the hyperlinked story they made news by claiming the TMUD decisions would not come until early next year - so much for the hoped for December Christmas news for Cleveland.
November 21, 2024Nov 21 6 hours ago, simplythis said: There is competition for Bedrock's TMUD application. Since this is in Columbus they might award for to the Columbus project. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/573-million-project-would-build-apartments-retail-on-downtown-columbus-parking-lots/ar-AA1uuPm9?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=3ef9a680f5664161c6dfffb561e750ba&ei=9 Edwards is no dummy but I think this one might not go as far as you'd think
November 22, 2024Nov 22 Author 1 hour ago, Willo said: News: In the hyperlinked story they made news by claiming the TMUD decisions would not come until early next year - so much for the hoped for December Christmas news for Cleveland. The Ohio Tax Credit Authority meets the last Monday of each month. The exception is for the November/December meeting which occurs the first Monday of December. I doubt we'll hear anything on Dec. 2. So it's probably going to be Jan. 27. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 22, 2024Nov 22 Author 11 hours ago, ink said: ^The December TCA meeting is December 16th, not the first Monday this year. Probably because Thanksgiving weekend will be the weekend before they normally hold the November-December meeting. So there's a chance they could announce something Dec. 16. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 22, 2024Nov 22 10 minutes ago, KJP said: Probably because Thanksgiving weekend will be the weekend before they normally hold the November-December meeting. So there's a chance they could announce something Dec. 16. They don't have a history of acting quickly so that still sounds a bit soon. Jan. is more likely but who knows.
December 28, 2024Dec 28 In the never-ending process of going through my memory cards for archiving, came across this from November 2011 - now the site of the Cleveland Clinic/Cavs facility. The only concert I ever attended at Tower City Amphitheater was Nelly Furtado - thankfully she was awesome because that was a truly awful venue in so many ways. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
December 28, 2024Dec 28 1 hour ago, MayDay said: In the never-ending process of going through my memory cards for archiving, came across this from November 2011 - now the site of the Cleveland Clinic/Cavs facility. The only concert I ever attended at Tower City Amphitheater was Nelly Furtado - thankfully she was awesome because that was a truly awful venue in so many ways. What? A tent plopped inartfully over a portion of a parking lot isn't a good enough venue for you? edit- honestly it's comical how lazy the conception, design, and execution of that "venue" was.
December 29, 2024Dec 29 Agreed, I had a couple fun nights there as a youngster. But the venue itself was super lazy! That shot of Cleveland looks brutal. I know not much has changed in that picture, but it's beginning to. And it makes me wonder why the region was stagnant with development for soooooo long. My guess is it's a generational thing, and what the market currently demands.
December 29, 2024Dec 29 3 hours ago, Jenny said: Agreed, I had a couple fun nights there as a youngster. But the venue itself was super lazy! That shot of Cleveland looks brutal. I know not much has changed in that picture, but it's beginning to. And it makes me wonder why the region was stagnant with development for soooooo long. My guess is it's a generational thing, and what the market currently demands. Cleveland's reconstruction has been, to an amazing extent, a bootstrap operation. For the most part, there was not a lot of state (more then less) or federal (less then more) help. The ARPA money has lately been an exception; and I wish it were being better spent. Bootstrap work takes time. If you look at city and county revenue trends, however, you can see a quickening of the pace. It should get easier. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
December 29, 2024Dec 29 7 hours ago, Jenny said: Agreed, I had a couple fun nights there as a youngster. But the venue itself was super lazy! That shot of Cleveland looks brutal. I know not much has changed in that picture, but it's beginning to. And it makes me wonder why the region was stagnant with development for soooooo long. My guess is it's a generational thing, and what the market currently demands. A couple things to consider- 1) The ownership of the land in the picture changing hands over time (finally). 2) The market just not being able to justify new construction for the longest due to local prices being too low to warrant it- for both residential and office/commercial. 3) Subsidies to make the construction make sense sometimes still couldn’t fill the gap. 4) Potential clean-up costs of the land would also play a factor. Thankfully, those years are behind us 👍 Edited December 29, 2024Dec 29 by Oldmanladyluck
January 2Jan 2 On 12/29/2024 at 7:44 AM, Jenny said: Agreed, I had a couple fun nights there as a youngster. But the venue itself was super lazy! That shot of Cleveland looks brutal. I know not much has changed in that picture, but it's beginning to. And it makes me wonder why the region was stagnant with development for soooooo long. My guess is it's a generational thing, and what the market currently demands. The main issue is just too much industry down and all around downtown that's festered since WW1 - WW2. Incredibly hard to flip to attractive neighborhoods. That's why the going is painstakingly slow. Unfortunately it will continue to be, but I'd say the worst is over. It's not like a Columbus or Charlotte where there's room to build out and expand. City was built on steel and died by it. We will get there! But I need Dan boy Gilbert to get his pick axe out in full force lol
January 2Jan 2 On 12/29/2024 at 4:44 AM, Jenny said: Agreed, I had a couple fun nights there as a youngster. But the venue itself was super lazy! That is a great assessment lol. Having people down there in good numbers and having fun really washed over the "blight" of the area. When they moved the rib fest or whatever they called it really showed that narrow strip had potential far beyond our extreme addiction for surface lot parking.
January 3Jan 3 just an fyi, but something about cosm today — Citylab Design Is This Weird Dome the Future of Watching Sports? By Kriston Capps January 2, 2025 Part sports bar and part planetarium, the screen-based entertainment venue Cosm promises an immersive game-day experience at a fraction of stadium prices. more: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2025-01-02/at-cosm-sports-fans-experience-live-games-on-shared-reality-screens Field of dreams: Dodgers fans watch Game 4 of the 2024 World Series at Cosm Los Angeles in October 2024. Photo: Keith Birmingham/MediaNews Group/Pasadena Star-News via Getty Images
January 17Jan 17 Author City seeks future TIF funds for Riverfront work now By Ken Prendergast / January 17, 2025 Mayor Justin Bibb's administration is requesting an important amendment to the city's riverfront tax increment financing (TIF) district that would do two things. One spells out exactly what infrastructure work would be done. A second would extend the 30-year TIF to 42 years. And the third and perhaps most controversial is that it would pledge undefined future TIF revenues to start infrastructure work now. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2025/01/17/city-seeks-future-tif-funds-for-riverfront-work-now/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 17Jan 17 This sounds like that behind closed doors bedrock is telling the administration that they would really like to start additional phasing sooner rather than later. This is probably additionally evidenced by the application for the TMUD.
January 17Jan 17 @KJP can you please clarify the process for the amendment approval? Also are these three separate amendments? What exactly did Design Review pass today? Was that just their recommendation? Is there further approval needed by Council and is that put to a vote by a specific committee in council or the entire body?
January 17Jan 17 1 minute ago, Henke said: What exactly did Design Review pass today? Was that just their recommendation? Planning Commission. Design Review is a whole different animal.
January 17Jan 17 Ah I read “City Planning Commission’s Design Review Committee” in the article and got confused. I have a pretty amateur understanding of the various committees (I wish there was a flow chart or infographic to simplify it lol)
January 17Jan 17 10 minutes ago, Henke said: @KJP can you please clarify the process for the amendment approval? Also are these three separate amendments? What exactly did Design Review pass today? Was that just their recommendation? Is there further approval needed by Council and is that put to a vote by a specific committee in council or the entire body? Don't want to step on Ken's toes...but I am pretty sure the proposed amendment has to go through Council, probably starting in committee (probably the Development committee and then to Finance) and then the full council. It will probably be a slow process and vetted like crazy. If Griffin states he has a lot of questions then I can guarantee you that other council members will as well, including those who like to throw shade on anything the administration proposes. Edited January 17Jan 17 by Htsguy
January 17Jan 17 Author Council referred the amendment, comprised of three new whereas clauses, to Planning Commission's DR committee for its input. All it did was give a thumbs-up. Note that I got the math wrong -- the TIF extension is to 42 years, not 60. I still don't understand that whereas clause, so I'm going to trust them that they're not BSing me. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 27Jan 27 Bedrock awarded only 9M TMUD credit. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/ohio-awards-dan-gilberts-bedrock-9m-tax-credit-for-cuyahoga-riverfront-development
January 27Jan 27 Do we know all the award winners? It seems like NEO was hosed this round, which is disappointing. I wonder where all the money went.
January 27Jan 27 2 minutes ago, Chris314 said: Do we know all the award winners? It seems like NEO was hosed this round, which is disappointing. I wonder where all the money went. C-Bus and Cincy
January 27Jan 27 3 minutes ago, Chris314 said: Do we know all the award winners? It seems like NEO was hosed this round, which is disappointing. I wonder where all the money went. https://governor.ohio.gov/media/news-and-media/ohio-mixed-use-development-projects-expected-to-spur-2-billion-in-community-investments-1-27 We were hosed. And woah big surprise, can you guess where almost half the money went to???? Edited January 27Jan 27 by Geowizical
January 27Jan 27 Requesting $40 Million and getting $9 Million is a slap in the face. Can we just fast forward to 2026? This year is sooooooo garbage already.
January 27Jan 27 ^Ikr I couldn't help but read the news release and replace "Ohio" and "State" with a particular city name instead. Anyways, I sure hope Bedrock has deep pockets cuz the state sure as heck doesn't care about meaningfully investing in our riverfront.
January 27Jan 27 Infuriating. I know the Galaxy at Polaris technically qualifies, but it really feels like it doesn't fit the spirit of the program.
January 27Jan 27 1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said: Requesting $40 Million and getting $9 Million is a slap in the face. Can we just fast forward to 2026? This year is sooooooo garbage already. Honestly, how did they arrive at that number?? Seems way out of whack with the project total cost as compared to the other awardees.
January 27Jan 27 And with a freeze on Federal funds and grants for God knows how long, who knows where the money will come from. Obviously Gilbert has the money, but how badly does he want this development to happen to spend it? I know he offered $1 billion to Detroit towards the Ren Cen's redevelopment but that's his hometown so he has a vested stake in that. Edited January 27Jan 27 by MyPhoneDead
January 28Jan 28 DeWine's famous listening tour only resulted in $9.1 million of the $40 million requested for our Riverfront? “(We’re) not only looking at what the Browns are doing or what the Browns want to do, but frankly also what the rest of the community wants and what’s going on in regards to the Lake (Erie) and what’s going on in regards to the (Cuyahoga) River,” DeWine said. We wonder if DeWine's visit helped or hurt the Riverfront TMUD request. It seems C-bus and Cinci lawmakers join forces again as they have for decades while NEO gets peanuts. Well, at least we got $40 million for the Centennial project (3 years ago)?
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