Also, to add on to that, is there any data surrounding how much convention goers visit retail establishments?

 

As far as the retail tenants part of this discussion goes, I think targeting retailers that have 1 or 0 locations in NEO is key to pulling suburban shoppers. Not that Nordstrom could fit at TC, but as an example if you currently have someone driving from Rocky River to Beachwood to go to Nordstrom, they might be more likely to shop at one at TC to save time.

 

edit: ClevelandOhio slipped that post in while I was typing :)

The old saying is "a fool and their money are soon parted" so retail tends to do well near casinos. 

^^^Not to go off topic...but what stores are at Crocker Park that do not exist on the east side?  I cannot think of anything major that somebody would travel 50 miles for.

^^^Not to go off topic...but what stores are at Crocker Park that do not exist on the east side?  I cannot think of anything major that somebody would travel 50 miles for.

 

urban outfitters for one

Yes I know they left but since the Casino and medical mart is coming there should be renewed interest in this space because high rollers will be there so

 

Whoa...  are you serious?  This is Cleveland, there won't be high rollers in the casinos...  Go see who goes to the casinos nearby now in Niagara, Detroit, Wheeling....  anything but high rollers

 

Comparing Cleveland to Wheeling is flat out dumb.....Cleveland will definitely have more high rollers than you're expecting. 

 

Please explain...  because I know plenty of people from Cleveland that travel to Wheeling to gamble and none of them are high rollers.

Edit - never mind, this is a dumb argument and shouldn't clutter up the Tower City forum.

I think I read in an article on TC in the PD (can't remember which one or what it was even about) but I do recall that FCE stated they were keeping most leases on a 1 year limit so that they could gauge what the Casino added to overall traffic.  I would imagine this is why you are getting the Dollar store and other lower tier shops.  Hopefully the store mixes will have changed by this time next year.

^I find that somewhat strange...unless I was getting a fantastic lease rate and the landlord paid for my build out, I would never sign a lease for just one year.

The dollar store at Tower City didn't build out anything.  And I bet they're getting a fantastic lease rate.

Random thought: the Casino will as be bringing an extra group of regulars downtown:

 

- 650 dealers ($40K+ each) http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/650_clevelanders_begin_casino.html

- 750 other employees (hourly and salary) http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/clevelands_horseshoe_casino_no.html

 

These people will inevitably be bringing income, family, and friends to Downtown/Tower City.  They will spend money for work clothes, food, etc.  I expect many of them to go to local bars downtown after shifts (or maybe not everyone drinks as much as me...). 

Yes I know they left but since the Casino and medical mart is coming there should be renewed interest in this space because high rollers will be there so

 

Whoa...  are you serious?  This is Cleveland, there won't be high rollers in the casinos...  Go see who goes to the casinos nearby now in Niagara, Detroit, Wheeling....  anything but high rollers

 

Comparing Cleveland to Wheeling is flat out dumb.....Cleveland will definitely have more high rollers than you're expecting. 

 

Please explain...  because I know plenty of people from Cleveland that travel to Wheeling to gamble and none of them are high rollers.

Edit - never mind, this is a dumb argument and shouldn't clutter up the Tower City forum.

 

Ok so that's the people you know!  Me and my high rolling friends won't be flying to Vegas and AC as much now that we have a nice casino local. 

Not too mention the people I know from Vegas and AC that are excited to come to CLE for a weekend to check out the new casino.

Not too mention the people I know from Vegas and AC that are excited to come to CLE for a weekend to check out the new casino.

 

Well maybe your high rolling friends will be able to shop at high roller stores if all of this talk about J.Crew, Banana Republic/Gap , and one year leases is true

One comment I found interesting - back in grad school Albert Ratner came in & spoke about about downtown Cleveland development.  Someone asked if he would have gone ahead with buying Terminal Tower & Tower City buildout if he knew then what he knows now.  He didn't really say but it was obvious the deal has not been a money maker.  Makes me wonder how long FCE was willing to hold on to the property just hoping for something like this casino deal to come along....  obviously decades

One comment I found interesting - back in grad school Albert Ratner came in & spoke about about downtown Cleveland development.  Someone asked if he would have gone ahead with buying Terminal Tower & Tower City buildout if he knew then what he knows now.  He didn't really say but it was obvious the deal has not been a money maker.  Makes me wonder how long FCE was willing to hold on to the property just hoping for something like this casino deal to come along....  obviously decades

 

Seeing how they just reported another loss and has sold a couple of properties to Rock Caesars, and they have been cutting The Avenue Mall hours steadily for the past couple of years, and they also haven't renovated the aging movie theater...I would say The Avenue mall is a yearly loss to them

2 new bits of info!

 

My parents were staying at the Ritz Carton this weekend and one of the employees was showing them the skylight room (former Century). It's currently available for private use but he mentioned Dan Gilbert's purchase of the hotel and said its always a possibility that the space could be open again full time.

 

One of the shop owners is Tower City told them that there are big changes coming as far as TC goes, and that FC only allows them (and the majority of tenants) to sign month to month leases. I know there was discussion about lease lengths but I can't find it. I don't remember anyone mentioning a month to month basis before.

I don't recall - is the Century the same space the Cleveland International Film Festival uses as a hospitality suite during the festival?

Century was at the Ritz side, Prospect entrance to Tower City.   

So that would be a yes then

Just curious... I wonder how many people on this forum actually live in or near Cleveland? Just for my own curiosity...

 

I also wonder what makes many so sure that those who will come downtown to a casino,  from wherever, will come to shop too...and not just opt to go gamble, drink..eat...go home and continue their current shopping habits---that is, at least for those coming from suburbs who might be set in their ways.

 

Sure, I think it will certainly add some renewed interest, but I would not bank on it so confidently. I also like the idea of fostering more local and independent higher end places, like what JBorger suggested, in adding a place like Banyan Tree...instead of clone zoning the place with the typical line-up which does not really  set aside from the rest....or express much individual character of our city....in adding the typical chain of stores.

 

Some ok, but this needs to have the offering of the element of some different as well; the right mix to serve both residents in and near downtown and ones that will be appealing or a lure for outsides. Sure the whole downtown setting in itself is an attraction and an experience that is not had at the typical suburban mall... But a interesting and functional mix would be good.

So that would be a yes then

 

If thats where the hospitality suite was located.  Oh and your welcome.

Just curious... I wonder how many people on this forum actually live in or near Cleveland? Just for my own curiosity...

 

I also wonder what makes many so sure that those who will come downtown to a casino,  from wherever, will come to shop too...and not just opt to go gamble, drink..eat...go home and continue their current shopping habits---that is, at least for those coming from suburbs who might be set in their ways.

 

Sure, I think it will certainly add some renewed interest, but I would not bank on it so confidently. I also like the idea of fostering more local and independent higher end places, like what JBorger suggested, in adding a place like Banyan Tree...instead of clone zoning the place with the typical line-up which does not really  set aside from the rest....or express much individual character of our city....in adding the typical chain of stores.

 

Some ok, but this needs to have the offering of the element of some different as well; the right mix to serve both residents in and near downtown and ones that will be appealing or a lure for outsides. Sure the whole downtown setting in itself is an attraction and an experience that is not had at the typical suburban mall... But a interesting and functional mix would be good.

 

I would say those of us that post in the NE boards are here.  It's a Mall, there is a certain retail formula that is needed.  Banana Republic and the Gap will go in, but as long as there is J. Crew is there, but in another wing. 

 

If X department store comes, then x retailer will follow as long as they dont have a "store in store" for x retail and if X department store/anchor come, then X stores need to be placed with in that stores wing.  This is why there will be similar stores.  However, I've stated to do this, all stores entering must be flagship, this way they are the same retailers that you might find at other malls, but the in store merchandise mix is greater.  It's a shell game.

 

TC has to be a draw based on location and now that we have a growing downtown residential population even if a store cannot afford TC, there with other store fronts becoming available the gateways into TC will need retail.  To me on street/street level retail for residents should go.  Not inside TC.  A good example of this is North Bridge Mall in downtown Chicago.  Lots of residential needs in all directions.

 

If this doesn't work, I say make TC a middle of the road mall, then create a street level luxury district in the Warehouse district (think River North in Chicago; Walnut in Philly; Collins Ave. Miami Beach) with housing and lodging above.

 

As you say, there has to be the right mix.  I believe what we had before could work now.  As I've stated before, I think TC was ahead of the game when it opened and downtown Cleveland wasn't ready for it.  Now we have the infrastructure and residential population to support it along with events to bring in leisure visitors.

For Tower City to be a successful draw, it needs national chains that aren't in the suburbs, or like I said, are only on one side of town. The big names will draw people in, and then the local stores can benefit off the foot traffic, if local stores are included. With a downtown population of about 6,817, downtown residents cant support these stores alone. Suburbs are crucial to the success of Tower City. Especially when that number includes section 8 and public housing, and homeless shelters. That number is more around 6,000 when you eliminate those(they wont be able to afford the high end stores.) Then how many of those remaining 6,000 will be able to afford higher end stores? Students are included in those numbers as well.

For Tower City to be a successful draw, it needs national chains that aren't in the suburbs, or like I said, are only on one side of town. The big names will draw people in, and then the local stores can benefit off the foot traffic, if local stores are included. With a downtown population of about 6,817, downtown residents cant support these stores alone. Suburbs are crucial to the success of Tower City. Especially when that number includes section 8 and public housing, and homeless shelters. That number is more around 6,000 when you eliminate those(they wont be able to afford the high end stores.) Then how many of those remaining 6,000 will be able to afford higher end stores? Students are included in those numbers as well.

 

 

I thought the downtown residence was closer to 10,000?

 

^the 10k figure includes prisoners and some public housing residents, so probably isn't what retailers are focusing on.  A big question to me is whether or not we should also count residents in close-in neighborhoods (Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit Shoreway, University Circle), where there's a growing yuppie population with money to spend.  Would these residents view downtown as their local/convenient shopping venue or would they continue to drive to suburban malls as they do now, where parking would be free and plentiful?  I hate even asking the question, but I'm curious what people think.

I live in Lakewood.  I would definitely go shopping downtown over crocker if there were similar options. No doubt.

For Tower City to be a successful draw, it needs national chains that aren't in the suburbs, or like I said, are only on one side of town. The big names will draw people in, and then the local stores can benefit off the foot traffic, if local stores are included. With a downtown population of about 6,817, downtown residents cant support these stores alone. Suburbs are crucial to the success of Tower City. Especially when that number includes section 8 and public housing, and homeless shelters. That number is more around 6,000 when you eliminate those(they wont be able to afford the high end stores.) Then how many of those remaining 6,000 will be able to afford higher end stores? Students are included in those numbers as well.

 

That is not necessarily true.  If a Flagship Banana Republic, J. Crew, Zara, Adidas, Victoria's Secret  etc. opens up in TC, it will be drastically different than the normal store at X mall.  New to the market stores will be a biger and more important draw, but a Flagship is a draw to a brand loyal customer.  You need that stable bases of known brands in the merchandise mix with upscale.  We also need a home decor Williams Sonoma, Crate & Barrel or at least a Pottery Barn and CB2.

 

With a downtown population of about 6,817, downtown residents cant support these stores alone. Suburbs are crucial to the success of Tower City. Especially when that number includes section 8 and public housing, and homeless shelters. That number is more around 6,000 when you eliminate those(they wont be able to afford the high end stores.) Then how many of those remaining 6,000 will be able to afford higher end stores? Students are included in those numbers as well.

 

We always  look at the magical 25k mark, but we also need to look at the 2 mile radius.  Downtown proper, OC, D-S, Sterling Payne/AsiaTown/CSU have all grown.  Those folks will no longer need to travel outside Cleveland proper to shop. In addition to retail workers, it will bring in other jobs  and ancillary jobs.  Workers need to eat and not everyone will want to eat inside.

 

I'll go back to history, when the Galleria opened, it hit Beachwood, Severance & Randall.  Then TC opened, it dealt Beachwood and Randall severe blows and killed the Galleria.  Beachwood was a 2nd thought.  Granted TC had a too big to fail mentality.  As stores in the Galleria moved to TC (example Banana Republic - The Galleria BR was the first of the original BR to be built in Ohio.  Ironically the BR in TC was the first to be built in the new contemporary schematic), TC killed the Galleria. 

 

People, shopping tours would pour into TC.  You couldn't walk in TC on weekend.  If there was a game...OMG, forget about it.  Back then you had TC and PHS with nothing in between.  May Co and Higbee's had been reduced to shells of themselves.  TC was like a casino at that time.  Suck everyone and everything in off the streets into TC.

 

Today, in downtown Cleveland, there is more to see and do, back then you didn't have East 4th, the Warehouse District, The EB (as it appealed to a different customer) and the TC/TT complex itself will have new growth that connects to neighborhoods on all sides.

 

This "revamped" TC will be more than just a mall and wont have the power to suck everyone in off the street as the adjacent neighborhood, not districts, are much more stable and one compliments the other.

For Tower City to be a successful draw, it needs national chains that aren't in the suburbs, or like I said, are only on one side of town. The big names will draw people in, and then the local stores can benefit off the foot traffic, if local stores are included. With a downtown population of about 6,817, downtown residents cant support these stores alone. Suburbs are crucial to the success of Tower City. Especially when that number includes section 8 and public housing, and homeless shelters. That number is more around 6,000 when you eliminate those(they wont be able to afford the high end stores.) Then how many of those remaining 6,000 will be able to afford higher end stores? Students are included in those numbers as well.

 

 

I thought the downtown residence was closer to 10,000?

 

 

Yes you will often hear the 10,000 figure because pure population numbers are around 9471. Remove the 2000+ prisoners and the homeless shelter population, and you get that 6,817 number I posted. And as I said early even a good chunk of that number is public housing residents, who as StrapHanger posted, probably aren't the focus of the national high end retailers.

 

And since people love to round up you will also hear 12,000 by others. This is from people who include the West Bank of the flats, which I dont believe is downtown, and is not that walkable to downtown. With the West Bank included the number is around 11,693. The majority of the 2000+ flats residents come from Lakeview Terrace, which are again, not major retailers focus.

I also wonder what makes many so sure that those who will come downtown to a casino,  from wherever, will come to shop too...

 

Here's what I can say I am reasonably sure of.  I am reasonably sure that the casino will bring many people downtown who would not otherwise come downtown.  I am reasonably sure that a portion of that crowd will not set foot in another downtown establishment while visiting the casino.  I am reasonably sure that the other portion of that crowd will patronize the downtown shops since they are already there.  How it divides, I don't know.  But I do know it will result in a net positive for downtown businesses in terms of what they need more than anything else - foot traffic

 

 

^I think the fact that Tower City and the casino will effectively be under the same roof will also help.  There are surely some visitors who will be unwilling to navigate unfamiliar streets or expose themselves to crap weather, but who are perfectly willing to follow corridor signs to Tower City Shopping.

Some casino visitors will also be visiting in conjunction with a trip to the Q for a game or concert. In the winter, going through the gerbil tube is going to be preferred; that will expose them to Tower City, too.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/lots_to_be_done_at_higbee_befo.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

wow, this video shows its connectivity to tower city, I know it's stupid but I didn't realize it would open directly into tower city, I feel like that's huge

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/lots_to_be_done_at_higbee_befo.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

wow, this video shows its connectivity to tower city, I know it's stupid but I didn't realize it would open directly into tower city, I feel like that's huge

 

Higbee's has always opened up into Tower City.  They are using the existing entrances to/from TC.

If Tower City can re-create this level of interest or even something close I will be ecstatic! Even though that may be wishful thinking its still possible...But Cleveland needs these store back in the mall especially stores like the Disney Store, and the WB store it creates something that you won't find often at other malls......Here's hoping!!!  :-D

 

 

 

How funny, I just saw that.  Here is the first part:

If Tower City can re-create this level of interest or even something close I will be ecstatic! Even though that may be wishful thinking its still possible...But Cleveland needs these store back in the mall especially stores like the Disney Store, and the WB store it creates something that you won't find often at other malls......Here's hoping!!!  ;D

 

 

 

 

Considering the Disney Store is no longer owned by Disney and the WB store no long exist, outside of China

dang...love the videos!

what was life like without youtube

^I don't have this Gucci view of the typical casino patron...more cargo short, baseball caps and little old ladies in Sears pant suits.

 

That's a bit heavy on the stereotyping.  Have you been to a casino?  There's usually a sizable upscale contingent along with the little old ladies.  And retail attached to casinos is usually more upscale than what's at Tower City right now.

 

Honestly even though I said we need high end retail for Casino goers....downtown shopping ANYWHERE needs to be upscale

 

Ideally, yes.  That's why I'm not sure this "outlet" plan is really the way to go.  Downtown Cleveland should not be trying to emulate Lodi or Grove City.

 

I think an outlet sort of mall would be another draw to the area. "Higher end" sort of place - not the usual Gap outlet strip mall sorts of stores.

Never. I do most of my shopping for clothes at Target and Kohl's -- or if I'm really hurting financially, I just wait for Christmas and birthdays for new duds.

 

I'm not trying to call anyone out on their financial status, but it gets to my point, we're asking for stores/business in Downtown Cleveland/TC for what exact reason?  Just because some other city has them?  We all know that some cities are subsidizing retail outlets.  Just to say we have them?

 

I would love to have Prada, Gucci, YSL, Ungaro, Burbery, etc.  BUT.....Why have these stores, if people cannot afford or want to shop at them?  Its the same thing as certain OU crying for skyscrapers, knowing we don't the occupancy level to warrant new commercial towers nor people willing to pay an upmarket residential price point without the amenities in Downtown.

 

For those ripping TC for having not so special stores, talk!

 

If TC want to evolve with the rest of downtown, I firmly believe they will need a mall manager or at-least bring in a team of people that have previous mall management experience to solely run TC.

 

I agree. The stores need to be something that have both an attraction factor for people coming to the casino or the convention center AND an every day attraction for people who live in the city and nearby neighborhoods to go to for routine purchases.

^I don't have this Gucci view of the typical casino patron...more cargo short, baseball caps and little old ladies in Sears pant suits.

 

That's a bit heavy on the stereotyping.  Have you been to a casino?  There's usually a sizable upscale contingent along with the little old ladies.  And retail attached to casinos is usually more upscale than what's at Tower City right now.

 

Honestly even though I said we need high end retail for Casino goers....downtown shopping ANYWHERE needs to be upscale

 

Ideally, yes.  That's why I'm not sure this "outlet" plan is really the way to go.  Downtown Cleveland should not be trying to emulate Lodi or Grove City.

 

I think an outlet sort of mall would be another draw to the area. "Higher end" sort of place - not the usual Gap outlet strip mall sorts of stores.

 

I'd rather have a 'regular' mall in TC (maybe with a few specialty shops), and the 'higher end' stuff out on Euclid, as others have recommended. BUT...if you're going outlet mall concept, there's Lodi, and then there's  Woodbury Commons. Do it that way, and you have yourself a gen-u-ine tourist destination

 

The cost for a outlet mall are too expensive for the rents at TC.  Again, why do you think outlets are soooo far outside the city center?  Can we move on from this idea?

 

I would like to see retail on Euclid, Prospect, Superior, West 6 and West 9 with TC filled with stores, think NorthBridge Mall.  As I said before, Flagship stores and 10a-8p hours will help tremendously.

 

Ah, well, if MTS says to move on, then I guess the discussion is over..... ;-)

 

I would like the Tower City space to be filled with throwback 80's brands. Bennetton, Esprit, Jamz, and the entire second floor to be a parachute pants emporium. There, that make you happy?

Ah, well, if MTS says to move on, then I guess the discussion is over..... ;)

 

LMAO

 

I would like the Tower City space to be filled with throwback 80's brands. Bennetton, Esprit, Jamz, and the entire second floor to be a parachute pants emporium. There, that make you happy?

 

 

I can't imagine rents currently in place  to keep TC mall occupied with 2nd-3rd rate tenants could be that far off what a major national chain would choose to pay for outlet space in a unique setting like this... Upscale outlets = huge draw = slam dunk success.  So, they're not in the country - so what?  Time have changed. Outlets aren't what they used to be - places to dump things that didn't sell. Most of today's major retailers have calculated/profitable plans for their outlet business and paying a bit more for rent in a city center might just make sense. Cleveland has a major outlet gap... Aurora/Lodi don't cut it..

I can't imagine rents currently in place  to keep TC mall occupied with 2nd-3rd rate tenants could be that far off what a major national chain would choose to pay for outlet space in a unique setting like this... Upscale outlets = huge draw = slam dunk success.  So, they're not in the country - so what?  Time have changed. Outlets aren't what they used to be - places to dump things that didn't sell. Most of today's major retailers have calculated/profitable plans for their outlet business and paying a bit more for rent in a city center might just make sense. Cleveland has a major outlet gap... Aurora/Lodi don't cut it..

 

See my earlier posts about pricing

Not everyone likes to gamble. Not everyone likes "Dollar-Rama" nor can everyone afford Saks  I too would love to see a flagship store there and stores along all those same streets.  However, it is just NOT going to happen at this point. Do something to create a draw first then court the flagship store.

 

Just expressing an opinion.

 

MTS you got any sources to back up those claims about TC rents being too high for outlet stores? cuz sis that doesn't sound true at all looking at its current lineup.

I'd rather have a 'regular' mall in TC (maybe with a few specialty shops), and the 'higher end' stuff out on Euclid, as others have recommended. BUT...if you're going outlet mall concept, there's Lodi, and then there's  Woodbury Commons. Do it that way, and you have yourself a gen-u-ine tourist destination

 

They're building a new outlet mall in Avon so there goes your unique downtown offering.

 

Something else always comes along in the suburbs that make people stop coming to the downtown location.  Downtown used to have the only Banana Republic in Northeast Ohio.  Then they popped up in the suburbs and -- poof -- no one went downtown.

 

This is one of the reasons I like having the casino and theaters and professional sports arenas downtown.  These things aren't easily replicated in the suburbs because if they could be, they would be.

 

 

MTS you got any sources to back up those claims about TC rents being too high for outlet stores? cuz sis that doesn't sound true at all looking at its current lineup.

 

Show me one outlet mall inside the city, excluding LA, Las Vegas, S. Florida and Orlando.

 

The product is not new and rarely in season, most retailers (Ralph Lauren being a huge example) will store good one season before sending them to their outlets.  The price point for the goods, which are generally out off season and irregular cannot make rent at a typical in city/urban mall.

I'd rather have a 'regular' mall in TC (maybe with a few specialty shops), and the 'higher end' stuff out on Euclid, as others have recommended. BUT...if you're going outlet mall concept, there's Lodi, and then there's  Woodbury Commons. Do it that way, and you have yourself a gen-u-ine tourist destination

 

They're building a new outlet mall in Avon so there goes your unique downtown offering.

 

Something else always comes along in the suburbs that make people stop coming to the downtown location.  Downtown used to have the only Banana Republic in Northeast Ohio.  Then they popped up in the suburbs and -- poof -- no one went downtown.

 

This is one of the reasons I like having the casino and theaters and professional sports arenas downtown.  These things aren't easily replicated in the suburbs because if they could be, they would be.

 

 

Not true, the BR at Severance was there before the BR at The Galleria opened up.  The BR at the galleria was The Gaps original prototype, when the BR was all out doorsy and had a camping motif.  The Gap Inc. was one of the first company's to have drill down market saturation.  A technique followed by Starbucks, Chase Bank, McDonalds.  I many major Cities you'll see the aforementioned retailers clustered together.  In NYC those stores plus Duane Reade are always withing two stores of one another.