Yes, Charlotte Russe was where Manhattan is. For many years it was Liz Claiborne. Believe it or not they even had men's in 1990.... I don't see much reason any particular store needs to concentrate on moving back to exactly where it had been. I associate The Gap with teens and not-necessarly professional types - not so much the downtown resident demographic. I'd associate Banana Republic, J Crew, or Eddie Bauer with the newer downtown types. They're all in many other downtowns where thousands of young professionals reside.

As I said before, downtowns population of around 7000 cannot support any of these stores alone. To suceed, this mall needs to attract people from the cities neighborhoods, tourists, and mainly people from the suburbs. The casino helps bring those people in, so do other events, such as sporting events. Downtown workers can stay afterwork and shop. But the main supporters of this mall won't be the people living downtown, and the retailers know it.

Talked to a security guard down at Tower City and she said she was informed along with her colleagues that there will be a Charlotte Rousse coming to downtown in the store next to Champs Sports (you can tell when walking by it that the space is being renovated), and the City Room right by the Next store is being renovated currently, also the large space that the store Manhattan occupies will be gone in place of something else. Even though the latter two spaces weren't revealed as to what will be in them she said management told them that it will be a major retailer in both spaces. Well now So Far them confirmed stores are Journey's, Charlotte Rousse, House of Hoops, and there is a feeling that the company I work for (Lids) will be moving into a storefront instead of a kiosk as well as the T-Mobile across from us. Oh also when I was walking by the Dunkin Donuts there was a sign that shot "Hot Shots Photography Coming Soon" In the space that previously held a photography business. So that's my update, it's not much but it's definitely progress. Side Note: That is a legit source because security is supposed to be informed of changes to the mall ahead of time so they can prepare for it.

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26665.120.html

 

McCleve, I knew it was you. 

 

Well yeah the posts folowing were mentioning the odditiy of coming back to the same spot, so thought if true may have been subleased, since at that point it had become so out of place. 

 

As I said before, downtowns population of around 7000 cannot support any of these stores alone. To suceed, this mall needs to attract people from the cities neighborhoods, tourists, and mainly people from the suburbs. The casino helps bring those people in, so do other events, such as sporting events. Downtown workers can stay afterwork and shop. But the main supporters of this mall won't be the people living downtown, and the retailers know it.

 

Where did you get the 7,000, when every estimate I've read has the population between 10,000 and 11,500?  (and that doesn't count the 8-9,000 in Ohio City, which is practically a downtown neighborhood)

As I said before, downtowns population of around 7000 cannot support any of these stores alone. To suceed, this mall needs to attract people from the cities neighborhoods, tourists, and mainly people from the suburbs. The casino helps bring those people in, so do other events, such as sporting events. Downtown workers can stay afterwork and shop. But the main supporters of this mall won't be the people living downtown, and the retailers know it.

 

Where did you get the 7,000, when every estimate I've read has the population between 10,000 and 11,500?  (and that doesn't count the 8-9,000 in Ohio City, which is practically a downtown neighborhood)

 

Remove prison population and homeless shelter population. And the remaining number is around 7000 which still includes section 8 housing which isnt the population those retailers are going after. I have more specific numbers elsewhere on this website.

I believe he is taking away the jail/prison population

^^^If you check out the various census threads or the Ohio downtown population thread (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,415.330.html) you'll find discussion  of his methodology for the 7,000 number, which I agree with completely. And I definitely agree with his main point that viable downtown retail will for the foreseeable future rely on much more than downtown's population alone.

 

EDIT: beaten to the punch.

^^^If you check out the various census threads or the Ohio downtown population thread (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,415.330.html) you'll find discussion  of his methodology for the 7,000 number, which I agree with completely. And I definitely agree with his main point that viable downtown retail will for the foreseeable future rely on much more than downtown's population alone.

 

EDIT: beaten to the punch.

 

Thanks for finding the link and for the kind words. It has been discussed in several threads and I couldn't remember which ones.

I forgot that I actually made a more detailed neighborhood population map for Cleveland. Its not finished yet. I have the information, but still need to add it all the the map. Anyways here it is.

 

So this is some of what Tower City's customers will be

 

http://goo.gl/maps/0apR

When Tower City opened did all of these skylights exist or were that put in when the mall opened. I was always curious

Work is going on in this space next to champs and Dunkin Donuts and as I looked closer its the woman for the go games store coming back :/ disappointed

One thing we will have this time around is tourist/business travelers thanks to the casino and new CC.  That will help support retail in the mall

All this Tower City revitalization talk is too soon. With some exceptions, people shop where they live.  With some exceptions, retail in downtowns across the country is basically dead.  The casino and med mart will not spark a retail revitalization.  Residents will.

 

I agree with what ClevelandOhio said: downtown's residential population is too small.  We need more downtown residents.  There's demand, but there's not financing.  Until downtown's population at least doubles, I wouldn't hold much hope for anything major in terms of Tower City retail.  Sad, but true.

Considering the fortunes of many malls throughout the US, I can't complain about Tower City. I am grateful that it is still there, not to mention mostly occupied.

When I worked at J. Crew in tower city back in the day, a large percentage of our sales (outside of Christmas holiday time) were travelers.  my guess would be about 30-40%

I agree with what ClevelandOhio said: downtown's residential population is too small.  We need more downtown residents.  There's demand, but there's not financing.  Until downtown's population at least doubles, I wouldn't hold much hope for anything major in terms of Tower City retail.  Sad, but true.

 

Just to reiterate/clarify points made above, it's true downtown's population is too small itself to support much retail, but ClevelandOhio made that point specifically in response to another post about downtown population.  When looking at the local population that would likely shop downtown, we should probably include inner neighborhoods, like Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, maybe even University Circle, so the situation isn't quite as bleak as 7,000 shoppers.  Plus, downtown workers and visitors do make up at least some portion of potential downtown shoppers in any city, so they shouldn't be ignored completely.

Chicken max next to Nathan's closed up shop

Go games

Talk to a Cleveland Police Officer today that said he was talking to higher ups with Tower City saying that 13 stores are coming to Tower City and they are not lackluster stores but stores you would see in a beachwood type mall. I believe him because he seemed sincere with the statement and told me without me asking. Another reason is tower city has at least 6 nice sized storefronts either gone or on their way out and they are all the Lower end stores...

When I worked at J. Crew in tower city back in the day, a large percentage of our sales (outside of Christmas holiday time) were travelers.  my guess would be about 30-40%

Cleveland has quite a sizable business community, so that makes sense!

I would say also with all of the new "local tourism" there will be more of a market. Obviously Brooks Brothers, Victoria's Secret, and Bath and Body Works get enough business from downtown residents, workers and tourists to stay in.  I would say we don't have the residential push for the typical American Eagle type teen stores, but I could see Aeropostale doing quite well as it has an average price point of $9 per store (used to manage one). I  saw a few Children's Place bags as I was waiting in the line of cars on Prospect tonight to get to my garage, so people are shopping and downtown traffic is definitely way up as all restaurants will vouch for.

Saw this Cycle Leather sign in the old k-line window but I never saw it before and the store isn't in the mall so they can't be advertising for it. Does this mean that they could be moving in this spot? I sure hope not

Wow.  Go Games, Calendar Club, Cycle Leather.  I can hardly wait.

Wow.  Go Games, Calendar Club, Cycle Leather.  I can hardly wait.

 

Yeah lol. So far, a huge disappointment.

My idea of stores that would be in a "Beachwood Place type mall" does not include Cycle Leather... Lol I hope the rumored 13 new stores are revealed soon...

Beachwood Place is struggling to attract Beachwood Place type stores in recent years so hard to think TC woukd attract them instead.

My idea of stores that would be in a "Beachwood Place type mall" does not include Cycle Leather... Lol I hope the rumored 13 new stores are revealed soon...

 

I saw a Hell's Angel checking out the Leather Store at Gordon Square last week. Good to know he'll have more options next time he's in town ha ha.

I go to Beachwood Place all the time and don't see evidence of much struggling! Very few vacancies and they don't tend to stay long.  As for the cop who spoke of "Beachwood Place-type stores," that would be really, really interesting so let's try to flesh out information on this, please!  Of course, as most of us know, there was a period in the '90s when indeed - TC had a lot of the same stores as BP, but those were the days....

Does anyone know if the Amish will ever be back in the flea market? They were coming for years - first in the warmer months when there was a market every Friday, then generally whenever there was a flea market, but sometimes missing it and sometimes even coming when there were no other vendors. Nothing like their particular types of fruit or nut pies, whoopie pies, cookies, greeting cards, etc. I know the tags said Ashtabula County.  I haven't seen them since last summer, nor have I seen them on Public Square this summer (though I only went once so far). Information Desk people claim to know nothing.... :-(

Just off the top of my head... Beachwood Place has these major vacancies... 8K sf McCormick & Schmick's, 5.5K sf Sony Style space (vacant 18-24 months...), 3-4K sf former Limited Too space occupied (loose term) by massage folks for 2-3 years as filler..., 8K sf former Brooks Brothers space - closed 2 years ago, announced closing 3 years ago - still only 1/2 occupied by local Urban Home & Garden (as filler..),  2 empty 1-2K sf spots in Nordstrom wing (1 of which has had temporary tenants for 3-4 years since luggage store closed and now has a convenience store of sorts as filler...), 2 other Saks wings spots either vacant (former Solstice) or with filler (eyebrow place), and 2 vacant Dillard's wing spot - including the former (left 2 years ago) Bose spot - which is in a highly visible upper spot in the center court...

 

with so many major upscale retailers not in this market - they shouldn't have any vacant spaces...

What do you mean by filler? They're tenants of the mall just like any of the other non-seasonal places.

Yeah, I don't know why you're calling some "fillers".... they're stores and they get customers. Some of these spaces, like part of what Brooks Brothers had, are not too evident. I think of the urban garden store as basically replacing BB, period.

 

Yes, Cycle Leather is scheduled to open around November.  :-o  No, I'm not happy about that one. If some 13 stores are to open (and yes, I can count at least that many empty spaces including the kiosks), that's BIG news and it should be more than easy for someone here with "connections" to get more information on this. :-)

Its interesting for Beachwood to have all those vacancies since its the supposed marquee mall in the area. Granted there is a lot of other retail nearby.

Beachwood Place: if Legacy/BP and Eton were combined - the store lineup would be impressive (though still lacking peer cities greatly...). However, between economic downturn (prior to which stores like Armani Exchange were announced and never came) and bankruptcy of parent company, GPP - plus competition with Eton/Legacy - there are some long-term vacancies that will go vacant another year unless something is announced soon for 2012 and stors that will remain filled with service providers, just to have rent coming in..  I wonder if problem is lack of proper sized spaces in best locations (new wing needed???) - for major retailers not here that should be in market, if BP is being too picky (there are some key,retailers still missing from east side - that have been at SouthPark, Crocker, etc... for years... abercrombie kids, Build-A-Bear, Brookstone, Urban Outfitters, etc...) inexplicably missing from BP/east - or if that's simply all they can do...

lafont - I'm calling massage place, eyebrow place "fillers" - because they are generally local service businesses doing little to remodel - just using vacant space - and likely on short term lease.. When a store moves into their space - they move down the mall to another vacant location (like the silly "Break Corner" at BP). They are not long-term, desirable, marquee retailers. If 4,000 square feet of Brooks Brothers is going unused - and rent isn't being paid by current tenant on that (regardless of whether Brooks still is) - then it's obviously to keep space filled until another real retaiiler comes along for all 8000 sf...  Worse yet, they still have vacant spots not even taken by these fillers...

Cycle leather sign gone does this mean anything?

Cycle leather sign gone does this mean anything?

 

Yeah, someone moved the sign.

Hah!

Sorry...off topic.

Well, I know that this thread has been full of conjecture recently, I am about to add to it (apologies to MayDay)

 

My girlfriend just happens to work in Tower City at, what I would say, is the last 'high-end' store left in the mall. I will let you folks figure out which one that is, but I will give you a hint: it is close to the casino.

 

With that being said, one of her clients is a Forest City executive (who shall remain unnamed), and he recently let it slip that Dan Gilbert is in the final stages of negotiations with Forest City on purchasing the mall, and that it should be finalized within the next 60 days.

 

To that end, she happens to be friends with two of the managers of nearby stores who both have had their long term leases changed to month-to-month leases.

 

Only time will tell...

 

 

 

Well, I know that this thread has been full of conjecture recently, I am about to add to it (apologies to MayDay)

 

My girlfriend just happens to work in Tower City at, what I would say, is the last 'high-end' store left in the mall. I will let you folks figure out which one that is, but I will give you a hint: it is close to the casino.

 

With that being said, one of her clients is a Forest City executive (who shall remain unnamed), and he recently let it slip that Dan Gilbert is in the final stages of negotiations with Forest City on purchasing the mall, and that it should be finalized within the next 60 days.

 

To that end, she happens to be friends with two of the managers of nearby stores who both have had their long term leases changed to month-to-month leases.

 

Only time will tell...

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.  I know this was something we thought might happen a while ago, but I guess well have to wait for an announcement.  It would certainly make sense for him to purchase it, and hopefully, if this is true, he will see that it is run better than FC has thus far done

Hmm I think a number of us were predicting such a move by Gilbert and Forest City.  So it seems at this point anything goes!

 

Would it be way off base to think that Gilbert may renovate the mall into more hotel space? 

I don't think it would be WAY off base, but if I recall, there will be a new hotel built with Phase 2, next to the Justice Center. Rather than having it retrofitted into the existing Avenue.

If Gilbert does buy Tower City He will essentially own the only Las Vegas style Casino within an 8 hour drive.

That's great news because he will make sure that he has a top notch mall to serve people in his casino.

 

Side note: If this goes through wouldn't Gilbert virtually own about half of the Tower city complex? (Ritz building, Quicken loans building, Office building next to the Ritz, Potentially the Avenue, and the land for the casino phase 2.)

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

 

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

 

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

I don't think this will happen why cut into profits you can make from a nice sized downtown mall by making that phase II of the casino? He already purchased the land for phase II and you don't pay $80 million for land and don't use it.

 

He can have a Casino in front of Tower City (phase I) and one behind it (phase II) while creating a mall that doesn't have to have Gucci, LV type store but a mixture of mid to high end stores to bring in more people to his Casino and shop at the same time. That way he can have 3 sources of income all connected to each other on top of his Quicken Loans business. It just makes dollar sense. Also he can build phase II to include even more retail.

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

Oh and he will use that land he bought....why put your casino on the water where nobody will be looking.  Office/residential on the river front.

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

I don't think this will happen why cut into profits you can make from a nice sized downtown mall by making that phase II of the casino? He already purchased the land for phase II and you don't pay $80 million for land and don't use it.

 

He can have a Casino in front of Tower City (phase I) and one behind it (phase II) while creating a mall that doesn't have to have Gucci, LV type store but a mixture of mid to high end stores to bring in more people to his Casino and shop at the same time. That way he can have 3 sources of income all connected to each other on top of his Quicken Loans business. It just makes dollar sense. Also he can build phase II to include even more retail.

 

There are no profits now,  there is a dollar store in your downtown mall.  Do you really think if the mall was so profitable or had the hopes of being profitable that Forest city would be selling it?  Casino floor is 10? 100? 1000? times more valuable than high end retail...let alone a no name leather or dollar store.

 

I can turn the dollar store into black jack tables tomorrow.  Gambling space now/retail later and only if needed....it has been pretty much proven by the tenants that what we have is too much.

 

Why have 3 sources of income....maximize the best one.  Gambling, renting offices, selling hats......converting hat selling space into slot machines is an absolute no brainier.....especially when you have people waiting in line to play slot machines.

 

Bet you a beer. 

 

 

 

 

I'd have to go back and review the language of the amendment that was passed to allow the casino, but I'm not sure he'd be allowed to turn TC into Phase II. I recall that the amendment was worded very specifically to allow only certain parcels be developed into casinos.