September 15, 20168 yr shhh. you never let the dealer see the third hand. You wanna play 21, well I got 22.
September 15, 20168 yr Author On the fourth hand, I wonder where Forest City will end up? My first guess is nuCLEus. Second guess is Flats East Bank. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 15, 20168 yr ^Or the suburbs!! Ba-dum-bum... psssssh. This could potentially lead to helping with the development of NuCLEus or the East Bank. However, what buildings already have 150k sqft left? I'm pretty sure our depleted downtown has at least one. If an existing building with 150 sqft is prestigious enough for Forest-City has yet to be seen. What's scary is that I'm pretty sure MayDay put out one of "those" stories on April Fools a few years ago about the Terminal Tower turning into apartments... one of at least two that have turned into reality. That's the fifth hand.
September 15, 20168 yr ^Or the suburbs!! Ba-dum-bum... psssssh. This could potentially lead to helping with the development of NuCLEus or the East Bank. However, what buildings already have 150k sqft left? I'm pretty sure our depleted downtown has at least one. If an existing building with 150 sqft is prestigious enough for Forest-City has yet to be seen. What's scary is that I'm pretty sure MayDay put out one of "those" stories on April Fools a few years ago about the Terminal Tower turning into apartments... one of at least two that have turned into reality. That's the fifth hand. I doubt they are going to go in a presently existing building. They want more efficient office space and the only buildings downtown with that kind of vacancy are...not efficient. Lol. It's going to be new construction and I think they stay downtown. At least that's what they've said
September 16, 20168 yr shhh. you never let the dealer see the third hand. You wanna play 21, well I got 22. On the fourth hand, I wonder where Forest City will end up? My first guess is nuCLEus. Second guess is Flats East Bank. If you are correct about nucleus wouldn't that require a significant re-design of the space as currently proposed? As I understand it Stark and Benesch are already eating up half the space which I believe is currently about 200,000 sq.ft. If Forest City needs 150,000 sq. ft. that is 50,000 over what is currently proposed (plus I would add anther 20,000 or so for possible future expansion needs). If you are right KJP that might mean a slightly taller builder which would make all the hilarious height junkies on the board jump up and down.
September 16, 20168 yr On the one hand, cool. On the other hand, Forest City really doesn't seem to give a s-hit about Cleveland And on the third(?) hand, K&D's track record as a management company isn't glowing... Yeah, from all the horror stories about K&D's poorly run properties, I'm a bit worried K&D is going to rehab and run apts in Cleveland's iconic building. Hold your breath; cross your fingers, ... or whatever metaphor you want to use.
September 16, 20168 yr Although FC continues to shed all Cleveland assets, I see this as a positive for CLE development. That size of company needing space along with potentially Medical Mutual and Sherwin could demand for that Public Square Tower we all desperately want to see. Jacobs sold that one lot for the Weston development, but they still own the parcel adjacent to PS, right?
September 16, 20168 yr Although FC continues to shed all Cleveland assets, I see this as a positive for CLE development. I hope you're right. I'm worried about a press release that goes, "Unfortunately we have been unable to find suitable space in Cleveland and have reluctantly decided to relocate our offices to Metrotech Center in Brooklyn, where we own ... etc." Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
September 16, 20168 yr Author If you are correct about nucleus wouldn't that require a significant re-design of the space as currently proposed? As I understand it Stark and Benesch are already eating up half the space which I believe is currently about 200,000 sq.ft. If Forest City needs 150,000 sq. ft. that is 50,000 over what is currently proposed (plus I would add anther 20,000 or so for possible future expansion needs). If you are right KJP that might mean a slightly taller builder which would make all the hilarious height junkies on the board jump up and down. Since my response is all speculation, I've posted it in the office developments thread.... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4266.msg818705.html#msg818705 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 7, 20168 yr Chick-Fila has has opened at TC next to American Greetings. Don't know if it's temp or not but the hours seem to be the same as the one at the Galleria. Is that one still there, anyone know?
November 8, 20168 yr Author Looks pretty temporary to me. Seems I remember someone posting that Chick-Fil-A would open a temporary location at Tower City (or maybe it was somewhere else?) during the RNC, but.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 8, 20168 yr Chick-Fila has has opened at TC next to American Greetings. Don't know if it's temp or not but the hours seem to be the same as the one at the Galleria. Is that one still there, anyone know? The one at the Galleria is still there.
November 8, 20168 yr Author The one at the Galleria is still there. Now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure that was the one that was going to open just for the RNC. Glad to hear they've stuck around and added a second location downtown. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 8, 20168 yr ^thats really weird. They cant even hide that nothing is being prepared anywhere near the site of delivery. People are still eating it. yikes
November 8, 20168 yr Yeah I don't get these temporary locations. Obviously the owner/operator of the Strongsville location has an interest in Downtown. I want them to succeed but at this point I would rather give my money to someplace thats already made the commitment to the city with a real location.
November 8, 20168 yr I think they're testing different areas of downtown to see where they get the most traffic but I think they're definitely planning a downtown location in the near future. I would be surprised if it was Tower City based on what I've heard of the plans for the remodel, but you never know.
November 8, 20168 yr tell us more about your knowledge of the plans of remodeling? :) I had posted it a while ago but from what I knew as of a couple months ago, the plan was to remove the food court, renovate the theater into a high-end theater and refocus the retail to a more "high end" array of stores. I don't think we're talking Gucci and Fendi like when TC opened but very different than what you have now. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything lately... I really want to know too!
February 7, 20178 yr Author K&D is seeking a landmark nomination for Terminal Tower, likely in preparation to seek tax credits. Wait, Terminal Tower isn't a designated landmark yet?? http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2017/02092017/index.php "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20178 yr I thought the same thing when I began reading your post. The most iconic buildings in Ohio isn't a landmark. Wow.
February 7, 20178 yr Author I think it has several landmark designations, but apparently it needs a different kind to be eligible for tax credits? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20178 yr Terminal Tower is already listed on the National Register as part of the Union Terminal Group (1976). That is all that is needed for state or federal historic tax credits. There must be other reasoning for seeking landmark status.
April 3, 20178 yr K&D is seeking a landmark nomination for Terminal Tower, likely in preparation to seek tax credits. Wait, Terminal Tower isn't a designated landmark yet?? http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2017/02092017/index.php As suspected a couple months ago, K&D is going after tax credits for the residential overhaul. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170402/NEWS/170409985/kd-eyes-preservation-tax-credits-for-terminal-tower-redo ...Willoughby-based K&D Group has filed to seek Ohio Historic Preservation Tax Credits for the $100 million project. K&D CEO Doug Price said early Friday morning, March 31, that "our application just went in." ... K&D's plan calls for adding 308 residences to the low-rise portion of the 52-story tower. ... K&D seeks a state tax credit for $5 million of qualified rehabilitation work in adding apartments to the 52-story office building, which was the tallest office building outside New York City in 1930.
April 3, 20178 yr K&D made it sound like no credits, no conversion. Which makes me somewhat concerned. I'm sure they will get the credits but if for some reason it doesn't happen: What is Plan B? A largely vacant Terminal Tower would be a drag on downtown for sure. This isn't some corner office building and K&D is not the greatest steward of properties.
April 3, 20178 yr Seems like a lousy use of credits. Hope they get rejected. Why? While I'm not the biggest K&D fan, we should encourage large-scale multi-unit apt development downtown, esp in the city center directly accessible to rail transit and retail. If they don't get it and they don't convert it, TT will likely sit largely empty as FCE is downsizing out.
April 3, 20178 yr K&D has a pretty solid track record of winning these credits. I highly doubt they'll lose out on Ohio's most iconic building.
April 3, 20178 yr ^^I'm highly skeptical that space isn't still viable as class B or C offices space, given the location. I have no problem at all with this conversion project, I'd just rather see the credits maximizing impact, by pulling buildings out of actual abandonment/long term vacancy and putting them back to productive use. Something more like the MayCo building. Not really the case here. ink[/member] has made clear in the past that all this is taken into account in the application evaluation to some extent. As always, will be interesting to see who the winners are and who was unsuccessful. [edited for typos and content]
May 24, 20178 yr Author http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2017/crr06-05-2017.pdf Board of Zoning Appeals JUNE 5, 2017 9:30 Calendar No.17-133: 230 W. Huron Rd./Terminal Tower Ward 3 Kerry McCormack 5 Notices K&D Group, owner, proposes to change the use of floors 4 through 15 from business to residential apartments with amenities and to add a 15th floor roof deck and mechanical room in an E5 General Retail Business. The owner appeals for relief from the strict application of the following sections of the Cleveland Codified Ordinances: 1. Section 355.04 which states that in an “E” area district, floor space of existing building changing to residential use is limited to 1 ½ the lot area. Floor area project building exceeds this limit. 2. Section 357.01© which states that rear and side yards are required for residential buildings in a retail business district. 3. Section 357.05(b) which states that in the Central Business District, as defined in Section 325.15 or as subsequently amended , whenever a building is to be used or occupied in part or entirely for Class A Residential Occupancy, the part of the building so used shall be located in respect to the lot lines as to provide at least one-half 91/2) the interior yard space of 800 square feet required in Section 355.06 and at least one-third(1/3) the rear yard space required in Section 357.08 or thirty (30) feet, whichever is greater. No interior side yard or rear yard is provided. Per 357.05(a), side street yard of five feet is required: no side yard is provided. (Filed April 27, 2017) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 22, 20177 yr ( I could not find the Tower City retail thread) Has there been any significant change in the retail makeup of the mall since it changed hands from Forest City to Rock gaming?
June 22, 20177 yr No. From what I last heard, nothing was going to happen until 2018, about the same time that K&D begins its transformation of Terminal Tower into residential.
June 22, 20177 yr Author PNC moved its bank branch, including ATM, out of the mall and into the Renaissance Hotel. It's very hard to find now. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 22, 20177 yr PNC moved its bank branch, including ATM, out of the mall and into the Renaissance Hotel. It's very hard to find now. Agreed, despite them being right on the corner of Superior. They need more/better signage. Hopefully they will be adding some soon.
June 23, 20177 yr mjarboe[/member] is tweeting... K&D CEO Doug Price says 300 apartments at TT will range from 500 to 2,000 square feet. Hoping to start construction in March 2018. 15th floor will be an amenity space, possibly including a restaurant with outdoor area.
November 6, 20177 yr Author A good article detailing the troubles and missed opportunities of retailing downtown and overall. The owner of the Lincoln Tap House was bitter, saying that Gilbert "did a great job keeping that (gaming) business within those four walls".... November 05, 2017 Tenants continue to march away from The Avenue at Tower City By STAN BULLARD Scratch three more tenants from the directory at The Avenue at Tower City Center as vacancy continues climbing at the downtown shopping mall. Tower Deli was scheduled to close Friday, Nov. 3, joining sister operation Lincoln Tap House in the dark, as the gastropub shuttered Oct. 19. The tailor shop Maestro recently moved to a storefront next door to the Hanna Theater, vacating a shop proprietor Mark Sror had opened two years ago on the Avenue. They are the latest additions to vacancy at the mall that an affiliate of Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's Bedrock Real Estate acquired in 2016 from Forest City Realty Trust, which had installed the 366,000-square-foot downtown mall inside the former Union Rail Terminal in 1990. The trio of shutdowns joins two food court tenants and at least three other tenants that left the building this past year, including Children's Place, a national retailer shedding stores across the country. MORE: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20171105/news/141186/tenants-continue-march-away-avenue-tower-city "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 6, 20177 yr I'm getting really impatient with the plans for Tower City. Now that Gilbert owns the Avenue, the land behind TC, the May Company Building, the May Co/ Garage, and the other building next to it on Ontario... you would think (or hope) that they have big plans for this area. I wonder how long it will be before the last remaining national tenants at TC change their minds.
November 6, 20177 yr "Food is pretty much covered downtown, and when residents need household goods they go to Steelyard Commons. It's minutes away," Price said. "For other kinds of retail, they're really pioneers, and you know what problems traditional retail is having." That's why, he added, K&D has focused on bringing to its downtown properties local businesses who want to expand because they know Northeast Ohio, such as Corbo's, Hodges, Metro Home and Yours Truly. "You can't just put in national retailers," Price said. "It's not an easy proposition no matter how you look at it." I wonder if Price would change his tune if the national retailer was a regional destination like IKEA or Bass Pro Outlet along the river. I'd sure love to see Gilbert treat the river front as more than just parking. It really is the x-factor for re-making TC as a more well-rounded, "go to" destination.
November 6, 20177 yr Maybe there's a little wait and see going on. With a residential conversion of the tower as is planned, a different tenant mix may be in the back of Gilberts mind for the mall. An influx of residents may change the demand.
November 6, 20177 yr We need more equity downtown before we can see tenants like hardware stores and even a "mini-Target" making investments downtown. Apartments are great, but retail needs to be anchored by equity, in my humble opinion,
November 6, 20177 yr "Food is pretty much covered downtown, and when residents need household goods they go to Steelyard Commons. It's minutes away," Price said. "For other kinds of retail, they're really pioneers, and you know what problems traditional retail is having." That's why, he added, K&D has focused on bringing to its downtown properties local businesses who want to expand because they know Northeast Ohio, such as Corbo's, Hodges, Metro Home and Yours Truly. "You can't just put in national retailers," Price said. "It's not an easy proposition no matter how you look at it." I wonder if Price would change his tune if the national retailer was a regional destination like IKEA or Bass Pro Outlet along the river. I'd sure love to see Gilbert treat the river front as more than just parking. It really is the x-factor for re-making TC as a more well-rounded, "go to" destination. Yet another indication of Steelyard's destructive effects, though I would disagree that it's "minutes away" for people living car-free. That is correct. A journey to Steelyard can be anywhere from 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours one-way from downtown via RTA.
November 7, 20177 yr The Avenue at Tower City near felt like a great concept from the start. In fact I believe it killed all retail that remained on Euclid Ave. Th only hope I had for this mall was when the promised casino was to be built along the river. If the Higbee building and new casino remained the Mal could have been used as a retail component similar to Caesar's and The Forum Shops.
November 7, 20177 yr Author Scene rips Gilbert, again Three More Tenants Leave the Avenue at Tower City, Zombie-Themed Laser Tag Closer to Reality https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2017/11/06/three-more-tenants-leave-the-avenue-at-tower-city-zombie-themed-laser-tag-closer-to-reality "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 7, 20177 yr Scene rips Gilbert, again Three More Tenants Leave the Avenue at Tower City, Zombie-Themed Laser Tag Closer to Reality https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2017/11/06/three-more-tenants-leave-the-avenue-at-tower-city-zombie-themed-laser-tag-closer-to-reality I used to love Scene, but their inability to roast someone on an objective basis has faded. They used to be the John Oliver of publications in the city, now they're the Keith Olbermann. They had a Zach Reed endorsement *paid ad* wrapped around the paper this week, even though they deny endorsing him. This epitomized Scene to me: 1) they gave a de facto endorsement to anyone who was willing to run against "the establishment" Dem, 2) They never would have allowed a *paid ad* wrap for John Kasich or Rob Portman.
November 7, 20177 yr Just turn the f'ing thing into an outlet mall already, call it the Fashion Outlets of Cleveland. Provide 3 or 4 hours free parking with proof of x dollars purchased, cross-promote it with Hopkins so people can shop while they wait to redline it for a flight. Probably not going to happen, but a man can dream damnit!
November 7, 20177 yr What ever happened to the idea of the west side transit center? Incorporating such a facility into a larger development on the PS lot, and connecting it underground to the TC rail station would provide transit riders an indoor waiting area for connecting buses rather than outside on the square (very cold in the winter) and would deal with the perception issues YABO713 outlines. A benefit for all without labeling people one way or another. The only problem is it takes money and vision.
November 7, 20177 yr The Transit Center idea for the Warehouse District or now the Weston Lots, with plans for residential development.
November 7, 20177 yr Author What ever happened to the idea of the west side transit center? Incorporating such a facility into a larger development on the PS lot, and connecting it underground to the TC rail station would provide transit riders an indoor waiting area for connecting buses rather than outside on the square (very cold in the winter) and would deal with the perception issues YABO713 outlines. A benefit for all without labeling people one way or another. The only problem is it takes money and vision. RTA was never crazy about the idea. It was foisted upon them by Forest City Enterprises which owned land at the corner of West 6th and Superior and sought to develop it using a publicly funded foundation/platform -- ie a transit center. Then, FCE would build atop it. With FCE bowing out of development in Cleveland and selling all of their interests here, the project went away. Nowadays RTA is in a financial spiral and still needs to replace its aging, decaying light-rail fleet immediately. So IF the federal government is still funding transit capital programs after 2020 (before which all of RTA's capital budget is spoken for), RTA will need to have roughly half of its next four-year capital allocation go to replacing the light-rail fleet. When you're in survival mode, then you have neither money or vision for anything else. If the community is interested in the future of transit, then it's going to have to lead the "vision" conversation and then figure out how to pay for it. Then we can plan catalytic transit projects. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 7, 20177 yr Having the Terminal Tower filled up with residents will (hopefully) have an immediate positive impact for TC (and the businesses in the surrounding areas). Then those residents will need stores (a mini-Target, restaurants, better food court, etc.) That will cause more people to be in TC shopping, etc instead of just traveling thru or just hanging out there. So hopefully getting people in the Terminal Tower will be what starts more / better businesses coming into TC.
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