I don’t really understand how a large park replacing Prospect would draw any visitors. It isn’t a high volume pedestrian zone. 

3 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

I don’t really understand how a large park replacing Prospect would draw any visitors. It isn’t a high volume pedestrian zone. 

If City Block is successful to its vision, it def would be

3 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

If City Block is successful to its vision, it def would be

And for all the new Terminal Tower residents, and whatever becomes of the Landmark Building.

21 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

I don’t really understand how a large park replacing Prospect would draw any visitors. It isn’t a high volume pedestrian zone. 

Neither was East 4th street 20 years ago. I imagine that pedestrianizing this street and adding restaurants and retail will have the same effect here, but with the park aspect adding in more appeal as a place to relax even if you aren't visiting any of the businesses.

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Would love to see Hyland establish a presence there.

 

Probably not feasible if the Google rumors are true.

@Taller_is_better mentioned above buildings shown along Huron Rd. hidden away in the background on this page of the proposal for City Block. Here is the image that calls this into question:

 

 

Depicted are new buildings where the current parking lots are, including what look like some bridges over Canal Rd that drop down to a new park area on the riverfront. This seems like a lot of new buildings on top of the already fairly large space inside Tower City reserved for City Block...

 

I threw together my next Sketchup rendering to get a better understanding of the scale of this since the proposal doesn't touch on this at all for some reason... suspicious... how does this all connect to City Block?

 

Anyways, here are some angles. The tallest building, assuming my almost correct scale, is about 350-400 ft. tall. Next to this mystery high-rise are two apartment buildings, and then another large building next to the sloping walkway down the park hill from Huron Rd. towards the river. Also, for those who've been following along with the renderings, the much taller yellow building in the second image represents a potential SW HQ on Public Square, for reference.

 

*Note: As usual, these renderings are unofficial and do not yet represent the final product. They are to be used for speculative purposes only.

 

Edited October 3, 20195 yr by Geowizical

I took a more detailed look at all of the logos in the renderings:
See Through Lab- experimental art and technology lab in Brooklyn
Stripe- payment company based in SF
CYBR- very small blockchain cyber security company in Virginia
Bunq- fully online bank in the Netherlands
Morph- no distinct logo shown and too many companies with this name
BlokVirtu- fictional software company and logo made by a graphic designer
Ezza- innovative, digitized nail salon from Chicago
TEDx- influential talks and presentations
Benedicts- ?
INCubator- logo stolen from a tech incubator in Chattanooga, TN. That is near Cleveland, TN I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Some of them are obviously not real and are just placeholder logos. But Stripe seems very possible. As does Bunq which just expanded to the entirety of the EU two days ago. And Ezza is getting bigger and bigger investments so an expansion to Cleveland would make sense. Lastly, TEDx talks should be very doable, but I imagine that space will be for multiple other presentation uses too.

21 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

City Block reimagines Tower City, with parks, innovative workspaces:

 

The ambitious plan imagines closing Prospect Avenue in front of Tower City, between Second and Third streets, to create a tree-lined park outside a modern entrance.

 

 

WTF?? What is it with people closing city streets? Every few days now there is another attempt somewhere.  In the last few days--close W38 so resident and people can't get to Lorain, close University ave in Tremont completely, and now this--and in the center of Downtown no less?!? It is because the city is doomed to failure so it doesn't need streets and will never grow to need them again?

6 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

WTF?? What is it with people closing city streets? Every few days now there is another attempt somewhere.  In the last few days--close W38 so resident and people can't get to Lorain, close University ave in Tremont completely, and now this--and in the center of Downtown no less?!? It is because the city is doomed to failure so it doesn't need streets and will never grow to need them again?

 

I don't drive so I could probably care less but it does seem a little extreme. So we either have auto centric thoroughfares or totally shut the roads down?  What's wrong with incremental changes. Reduce this two traffic lanes and narrow them so 10mph is the comfortable speed. And add dedicated bus and bikes lanes. I would rather see the incremental approach everywhere then forcing all traffic to a few routes that will then remain totally hostile to non vehicle users indefinitely.

2 hours ago, tj111 said:

 

Probably not feasible if the Google rumors are true.

what rumors?  Also, Google likes to be in city centers or upcoming centers so they can change whatever area they are in.

Those towers make we wonder if Sherwin would like to have a campus on the TC side of the river ?

If this comes to fruition I’d love to see some effort to bring the CVSR north into this project with it terminating at the old B&O station in the flats, with the possibility of it growing into a commuter route to points south/Akron.

i love the vision of this project; especially if the riverfront connection can be made.

If anyone is interested in a CVSR extension:

 

31 minutes ago, punch said:

Those towers make we wonder if Sherwin would like to have a campus on the TC side of the river ?

As intriguing as that possibility is, I’m still favoring them (finally) developing the Jacobs & Weston blocks; those are just a huge gaping hole in our downtown fabric that can be solved with essentially one user/project.

3 hours ago, Geowizical said:

@Taller_is_better

Anyways, here are some angles. The tallest building, assuming my almost correct scale, is about 350-400 ft. tall.

 

 

@Geowizical, thanks for this. When taken together, what is the square footage of your model buildings? I.e., do they add up to 1.8 million?

32 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

 

@Geowizical, thanks for this. When taken together, what is the square footage of your model buildings? I.e., do they add up to 1.8 million?

 

Wow, okay... so minus the two obviously apartment buildings in the center which I indicated previously....

(Not total volume of the building of course, but floor space)

 

An estimated 1.35 million...

 

Wow indeed...

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by Geowizical

1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said:

If anyone is interested in a CVSR extension:

 

The CVSR is a blast btw. It’s like a different theme party in every car. But I digress. I could also see SHW building the HQ complex here, in combination with the CityBlock plan. And I think they could greatly feed off each other and help CityBlock thrive. The new justice center can take the Jacobs lot. 

6 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

WTF?? What is it with people closing city streets? Every few days now there is another attempt somewhere.  In the last few days--close W38 so resident and people can't get to Lorain, close University ave in Tremont completely, and now this--and in the center of Downtown no less?!? It is because the city is doomed to failure so it doesn't need streets and will never grow to need them again?

I agree--closing Prospect would eliminate a key north-south route in downtown.  With it gone there is not a clear north-south route between Huron and E 9th.  

59 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I agree--closing Prospect would eliminate a key north-south route in downtown.  With it gone there is not a clear north-south route between Huron and E 9th.  

Actually Prospect Avenue is a west-east street and you take ONTARIO Avenue north or south.

Actually Downtown Cleveland isn't a perfectly rectangular grid, nor is it aligned to the cardinal directions.  You can use W. Prospect to get from the East side of Downtown to the West side of Downtown.  Somehow it can also be used to get from the South side of Downtown to the North side of Downtown.  Yet it isn't a diagonal street.  Weird.  It is a pretty important street for automobile traffic flow because of this weird tesseract-like behavior (the actual answer is that the Downtown grid moves around Prospect, even though it is mostly east-west). 

 

I'd prefer to see it narrowed for auto traffic with wider, better streetscaped sidewalks, but not shut down entirely.

KJP,

Is there any possible loose collaboration or coordination  between this project and Sherwin Williams?  There is a certain logic to that ,given the Landmark building and current R & D location.

Yes, I believe there is considering that two of the principals involved are involved in the location/design info gathering for both projects, because of that riverfront massing, and due to information I haven't shared yet because I was asked not to. I hope to get permission to share it soon.

 

See new message below

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by KJP

6 hours ago, Cleburger said:

I agree--closing Prospect would eliminate a key north-south route in downtown.  With it gone there is not a clear north-south route between Huron and E 9th.  

When I drove through that area, I always took Huron to go south from Superior, not Prospect. Huron is fast and cuts diagonally to Ontario and Carnegie. Ontario is the other north/south route and with the two Gilbert skybridges overhead, there will be no pedestrian traffic to impede the vehicle flow. Lol.

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

8 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Actually Prospect Avenue is a west-east street and you take ONTARIO Avenue north or south.

 

The segment in question between Ontario and Superior takes a turn to the north(ish). 

So I checked with a source who says those massings for CityBlock aren’t intended to represent anything other than potential future work. What you’re seeing has nothing to do with SHW. There have been some conversations about apartments/hotels as part of the riverfront development.

 

To me, that's actually more intriguing than SHW going there because that it offers the potential of a huge SHW HQ+R&D facility PLUS some cool stuff being pondered for the Riverview phase.

What strikes me most about the floor plans is how much of the space apparently will not be public, but will be "membership only."  

4 hours ago, KJP said:

So I checked with a source who says those massings for CityBlock aren’t intended to represent anything other than potential future work. What you’re seeing has nothing to do with SHW. There have been some conversations about apartments/hotels as part of the riverfront development.

 

To me, that's actually more intriguing than SHW going there because that it offers the potential of a huge SHW HQ+R&D facility PLUS some cool stuff being pondered for the Riverview phase.

YESSS!

^^ It does offers a really great potential of taking Downtown Cleveland to the next

level!!

 

With a

SHW HQ & R&D

 

CITY BLOCK with perhaps RIVERFRONT APTS

 

LANDMARK TOWER APTS

 

MAY COMPANY APTS

 

NEW RETAIL ALONG ONTARIO and PROSPECT

 

and all to be concentrated in middle of DOWNTOWN!!

 

EDIT:

 

PLUS ADD:

 

75 PUBLIC SQUARE APTS & RETAIL

 

NEW JUSTICE CENTER without COUNTY JAIL (Midtown??)

 

WESTIN DEVELOPMENT ??

 

55 PUBLIC SQUARE APTS & RETAIL ???

 

and in MAYBE some day:

nuCLEus ??????

 

 

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by Larry1962
Added more projects to be completed in that area

So it turns out this riverfront project is much greater in scale than I initially showed in the renderings... there appear to be at least three other buildings by the Courthouse that are part of this as well. Also notice SW's Breen in the bottom left by the courthouse (hopefully soon to close? ?)

 

Think about this:

I can't imagine what a great walk it will be someday for someone to take a journey from the Rock Hall and Lakefront Development by FirstEnergy Stadium, past the Science Center, across the Land Bridge, down the Mall/Convention Center, into Public Square, through Tower City, Prospect Park and the new, high-tech  City Block, and finally out, down the sloping hill/park towards the Riverfront. Sounds like the Yellow Brick Road of Downtown Cleveland to me.

 

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by Geowizical

1 minute ago, Terdolph said:

They already do.  If they would just complete their existing bldg., and take over all of the Skylight Tower they would probably have all the space they need.

 

Not even close. They're about 700,000-800,000 sf short. They occupy 50K sf of Skylight which totals only 340K and is almost fully leased out. And their existing office and R&D buildings are outdated.

23 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

So it turns out this riverfront project is much greater in scale than I initially showed in the renderings... there appear to be at least three other buildings by the Courthouse that are part of this as well. Also notice SW's Breen in the bottom left by the courthouse (hopefully soon to close? ?)

 

Think about this:

I can't imagine what a great walk it will be someday for someone to take a journey from the Rock Hall and Lakefront Development by FirstEnergy Stadium, past the Science Center, across the Land Bridge, down the Mall/Convention Center, into Public Square, through Tower City, Prospect Park and the new, high-tech  City Block, and finally out, down the sloping hill/park towards the Riverfront. Sounds like the Yellow Brick Road of Downtown Cleveland to me.

 

Are you referencing the proposed park and trail overlooking the Cuyahoga that borders Ontario to the west?  Would love to see that built as it was proposed as it would compliment any type of development like this very nicely.  Apologies I’m unable to find the image of it at this time.

On 10/3/2019 at 3:05 PM, marty15 said:

Would love to see Hyland establish a presence there.

Don't hold your breath

20 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Don't hold your breath

Gotta vote you down again. You never contribute anything positive to any conversation you insert yourself into. Ever. I can’t be the only one annoyed with this

^I think once someone gets 100 down votes, they should be banned from the forum.  Only 12 more to go for DustinFox!

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2019/10/clevelands-next-big-thing-is-not-what-you-might-expect-richey-piiparinen.html

30 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2019/10/clevelands-next-big-thing-is-not-what-you-might-expect-richey-piiparinen.html

 

I didn't understand what he was recommending. I understood the part about creating more college-educated people coming out of the Cleveland school system. And he notes that without the jobs demand for college-educated young people, they leave. He says Blockland isn't what's needed to keep them here, but like so many others who claim to know what ISN'T the answer, they don't tell us what they think IS the answer.

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

I didn't understand what he was recommending. I understood the part about creating more college-educated people coming out of the Cleveland school system. And he notes that without the jobs demand for college-educated young people, they leave. He says Blockland isn't what's needed to keep them here, but like so many others who claim to know what ISN'T the answer, they don't tell us what they think IS the answer.

Right - he talked a little about supply, then said "You also need demand" and then the piece just trailed off into nothing.

 

Also, we tend to ascribe the mantle of "next big thing" to projects simply because they are big.  In the case of things like the Med Mart and the Casino, which require John Q. Public's assent at the ballot box in one way or another, unfortunately, those in favor of the project tend to hype these things up as major catalysts when the reality is more along the lines of "this is a good idea. It's a small piece of a much larger puzzle, but we should do it."   But I haven't heard much about this Tower City project being treated as much more than when the writer here says it is - a real estate project. It will transform a major hub of the city from its current use to something else, so if course it's getting some "big" attention. But beyond that, I'm not sure this piece is saying much.

I think he’s maybe letting his links do a lot of the work for him. The link to the CityBlock article is mildly illuminating but the link to the paper about human capital is more interesting. 
 

As a side note, if you’d like to get bummed out about Bernie Moreno and his role in CityBlock go read his twitter feed. Yikes!

Great sky for pics today.

In the spirit of Throwback Thursday that @MayDay has inspired. This is Forest City's plan for a convention center at Tower City. For some reason, a proposed convention center hotel was circled. This is from 2005.......

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

In the spirit of Throwback Thursday that @MayDay has inspired. This is Forest City's plan for a convention center at Tower City. For some reason, a proposed convention center hotel was circled. This is from 2005.......

Omg, look at those second empire-inspired townhomes on Scranton ???

BTW, I hope that proposed pedestrian bridge was going to be a lift bridge, because there's no way the big freighters could fit under that!

That was my favored location for the CC.

That would have been so much better.  Actually, anything else would have been better... our current convention center setup is a terrible design/plan.

3 minutes ago, NR said:

That would have been so much better.  Actually, anything else would have been better... our current convention center setup is a terrible design/plan.

They destroyed the Mall too. 

Edited October 31, 20195 yr by freefourur

44 minutes ago, NR said:

That would have been so much better.  Actually, anything else would have been better... our current convention center setup is a terrible design/plan.

 

41 minutes ago, freefourur said:

They destroyed the Mall too. 

If I recall correctly from way back then there was a good amount of opposition to the TC site on this board.  I think a lot of it had to do with the design and the feeling that this huge edifice was going to loom over the river.

4 hours ago, Htsguy said:

 

If I recall correctly from way back then there was a good amount of opposition to the TC site on this board.  I think a lot of it had to do with the design and the feeling that this huge edifice was going to loom over the river.

This is correct. Look at the early pages of the CC thread and there is a ton of opposition to the riverfront proposal; a lot of it also had to do with anti-Forest City sentiment and the perception that they were jerking the city around and trying to use political clout to get their way.

 

In retrospect I do find what was done to Mall B to be a mild disaster in terms of the malls' integrity and visual appeal. 

Edited October 31, 20195 yr by PittsburgoDelendaEst

10 hours ago, KJP said:

In the spirit of Throwback Thursday that @MayDay has inspired. This is Forest City's plan for a convention center at Tower City. For some reason, a proposed convention center hotel was circled. This is from 2005.......

Love the design and the new Hilton would have been so much more impactful in this location.  I'm not a big fan of the current location and its transformation of the Mall.

^I’m starting to come around to a new perspective. The current CC may not have the greatest layout, but it’s an incredible use of real estate. I’m thinking of LA and Philly and Jacob Javitz and all these monstrosities that take up 15 blocks. I’ve had several friends come into town and remark that our CC is nice because it’s not hulking. 
 

The current Hilton feels stranded right now because it’s disconnected from neighborhoods—but imagine it as a beautiful halfway point to grab a drink once the lakefront is a) built and b) connected through a land bridge. 
 

Couple that with a new S-W site on the River integrated well with a City Block and “Solstice Stairs” from TC down to the riverfront. 
 

Between the riverfront steps, TC avenue, public square, malls, land bridge, and lakefront green by the RRHOF, we have a welcome mat connecting the Lake to the River. 
 

Link that up with a courthouse tower, mixed use developments along the rest of the parking lot district, and you get ?

Add San Francisco, New Orleans and Orlando, they're all behemoths. For what it is, placing the CCC mostly underground was a very wise use of land, without the need to make an architectural statement.  I had a lot of great times and fond memories from the Hanna Fountains however, and miss that aspect of the Mall.

Edited November 1, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder