^As far as I know, no one outside of Forest City has ever really called it "The Avenue." Killing that stupid name is low-hanging fruit.

 

Really curious to see if the plan is to go for incremental improvements with small rebranding/marketing, or a much bigger splash that tries to remake much of the tenant roster in one big go.

I've never really understood "The Avenue" branding.  I was like 10 when the mall opened...  to me "Tower City" is the mall, Terminal Tower is the office building. Is that wrong?  I've never called it "The Avenue"...it doesn't make sense as a name for what it is, does it?

 

I agree. I had thought that FC dropped "The Avenue" branding years ago, but it's been referred to as such since the sale discussions started. I don't think there are any signs in the center that say "The Avenue" anymore, are there?

Email from Gilbert to his employees, one of which is my friend:

 

"A one of a kind urban destination that could include shopping, dining, entertainment and ______ (you fill in the blank) that will make Clevelanders proud "

 

Sounds like he purchased first, plan later type thing.  Doesn't look like he has a specific vision going into it

Or you could take the cynical view (as I often do) and say that it's fairly commonplace to "open" these types of discussions to the public to give them an added sense of "ownership" of a project, regardless of whether you have any plans to incorporate their feedback  :-D

 

I'm glad the mall changed hands, and I think it definitely has room for improvement in the short-term. For it to be a major success, though, there will have to be significant investment/development surrounding Tower City, including a lot more residential. I really hope they keep the movie theater open, and maybe this can even be a catalyst for the theater to get a facelift?  I also really, really hope there is a plan for the sea of parking near the river. A new entertainment option would be welcome...mini-football/fútbol stadium anyone?  :wink:

...For it to be a major success, though, there will have to be significant investment/development surrounding Tower City, including a lot more residential...

 

So, Sherwin-Williams builds a new HQ tower on Public Square and then they sell the Landmark Office building to a developer to turn it into residential. Perfect.

I'm in agreement with those who have said that they hope the mall stays a mall. I think that there is tremendous value in having a downtown mall connected to rapid transit if it can be done correctly. I also agree that it doesn't necessarily need to be a luxury mall, but it needs to be a place where people can get what they need. I still like the mall. Just need better stores.

...For it to be a major success, though, there will have to be significant investment/development surrounding Tower City, including a lot more residential...

 

So, Sherwin-Williams builds a new HQ tower on Public Square and then they sell the Landmark Office building to a developer to turn it into residential. Perfect.

...For it to be a major success, though, there will have to be significant investment/development surrounding Tower City, including a lot more residential...

 

So, Sherwin-Williams builds a new HQ tower on Public Square and then they sell the Landmark Office building to a developer to turn it into residential. Perfect.

Just this past Friday, a colleague from out of met me at our office in Tower City. He remarked at the crowds "I thought this place was supposed to be dead?"

 

Looking to Detroit for Tower City clues

March 27, 2016

By STAN BULLARD   

 

The Avenue mall at Tower City Center was opened in 1990 as real estate developers explored the concept of filling the hole in the donut. Enclosed malls often encircled older cities. At the time, downtowns offered fresh opportunities for expanding retailers.

 

As billionaire Dan Gilbert launches the remaking of the Avenue after buying it from original developer Forest City Realty Trust, one of his biggest advantages — besides his pocketbook — may be that there’s less of a hole in another donut.

 

Residential development in nearby neighborhoods and the past decade’s surge of downtown lofts have created a larger base of well-heeled shoppers nearby, though the area still has far to go to win retail attention. The residential growth has joined with the passion for chef-driven local dining to reignite the retail environment.

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160327/NEWS/160329809/looking-to-detroit-for-tower-city-clues

same thing I think when I visit home...  some people make it seem as though some of the lights are out....

It's the classic Cleveland Complex, in condensed form.  It's false to say the mall/the city is thriving, but denizens know it had its salad days and tend to belittle the present state of affairs more than is warranted.

This caught my eye in the Crain's piece, above:

 

"Taylor, a veteran of 15 downtown restaurant leases, emphasized Gilbert will need help from civic leaders and government to tackle factors hobbling downtown, such as lack of cheap parking for restaurant and retail workers and visitors."

 

The lack of cheap parking is hobbling downtown?  Really!?  I think Stephen Taylor and his CBRE Group (and Crain's, too) need to get out and travel to other cities like Philly, Boston, SF, Chicago and D.C. -- among others (I won't even bother to cite New York).  Cleveland's downtown parking is bargain basement comparatively.  In fact, the abundance of available cheap parking in downtown Cleveland has been cited as a reason that has hurt rail transit usage here, which I believe to be true.  Cleveland, especially downtown, will never take the next step to the big leagues until it can break free of auto worship for the urban environment and embrace, fully, the concept of walkability.

This caught my eye in the Crain's piece, above:

 

"Taylor, a veteran of 15 downtown restaurant leases, emphasized Gilbert will need help from civic leaders and government to tackle factors hobbling downtown, such as lack of cheap parking for restaurant and retail workers and visitors."

 

The lack of cheap parking is hobbling downtown?  Really!?  I think Stephen Taylor and his CBRE Group (and Crain's, too) need to get out and travel to other cities like Philly, Boston, SF, Chicago and D.C. -- among others (I won't even bother to cite New York).  Cleveland's downtown parking is bargain basement comparatively.  In fact, the abundance of available cheap parking in downtown Cleveland has been cited as a reason that has hurt rail transit usage here, which I believe to be true.  Cleveland, especially downtown, will never take the next step to the big leagues until it can break free of auto worship for the urban environment and embrace, fully, the concept of walkability.

 

Perhaps the most ironic part of that is that Gilbert's car dealer sponsored parking garage connected via Skye bridge is the most expensive parking garage in the city. Or do they still do reduced price parking during the week/certain hours?

 

Isn't there a couple thousand spaces below Tower City and along Canal road. The notion that the area lacks parking is absurd. Besides, the mall sits above the largest transit hub in the state, and the middle of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the region - downtown, Ohio City, and Tremont. Parking was never the reason Tower City failed.

Tower City sale creates uncertainty for Cleveland International Film Festival

 

By Joanna Connors, The Plain Dealer

Email the author

on March 23, 2016 at 8:45 AM, updated March 23, 2016 at 11:07 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The sale of the Avenue at Tower City to companies associated with Dan Gilbert, announced Wednesday, brings with it the question of what happens to Tower City Cinemas and, more crucially, to the Cleveland International Film Festival.

 

The CIFF, celebrating its 40th anniversary this year, has made Tower City Cinemas its home every spring since 1991. The central location has been a boon for both the city of Cleveland and the CIFF, which has grown more than 600 percent since it moved to Tower City.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/moviebuff/index.ssf/2016/03/tower_city_sale_brings_uncerta.html#incart_article_small

 

I don't keep up with the developments in Cleveland like I used to but wasn't there a movie theater planned for the Flats East Bank? If so perhaps the Cleveland International Film Festival can move there?

^ The nice advantage of using Tower City for CIFF is that they are able to use all 11 screens for the festival. I obviously haven't seen any specific plans for the FEB phase III, but I have my doubts that such a theater would have that many screens under one roof.

I didn't realize that TC had 11 screens. But that is not surprising considering the last movie I saw there stared Roseanne Barr! :laugh:

We only use 10 out of the 11 screens. There is one theater that is not ADA compliant. We use that one for storage and as the base for volunteers.

Tower City sale creates uncertainty for Cleveland International Film Festival

 

By Joanna Connors, The Plain Dealer

Email the author

on March 23, 2016 at 8:45 AM, updated March 23, 2016 at 11:07 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The sale of the Avenue at Tower City to companies associated with Dan Gilbert, announced Wednesday, brings with it the question of what happens to Tower City Cinemas and, more crucially, to the Cleveland International Film Festival.

 

The CIFF, celebrating its 40th anniversary this year, has made Tower City Cinemas its home every spring since 1991. The central location has been a boon for both the city of Cleveland and the CIFF, which has grown more than 600 percent since it moved to Tower City.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/moviebuff/index.ssf/2016/03/tower_city_sale_brings_uncerta.html#incart_article_small

 

I don't keep up with the developments in Cleveland like I used to but wasn't there a movie theater planned for the Flats East Bank? If so perhaps the Cleveland International Film Festival can move there?

 

I don't know Fairmount/Wolstein's latest plans for Phase III although, you're right, film theaters were discussed at one time... I also know there was some push-back with some worrying about undue competition with Tower City.  I actually think if FEB did include, say, an art-house/independent type theater (think Cedar-Lee), then the 2 establishments could both survive.  I personally, though, hope and pray Gilbert maintain, and even enhance, the Tower City Cinema.  There's no better location for CIFF imho, with TC being the city's transit up along with providing so much under one roof, from food, 2 hotels, some retail ... and even the casino, if film goers are into that in-between films.  Folks could even take in a Cavs or Indians game...

 

... ugh, ... and yes, there's also connected, indoor parking from 2 different lots, as well.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2016/05/kd_group_strikes_deal_to_buy_t.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

WOW, K&D purchasing the Terminal Tower. Does this mean Forest City HQ leaves Cleveland now that they have shed all property here? I think this answers the earlier rumor as to what premier building K&D was targeting...

 

Edit: Forest City retains the Post Office building for now. The article states Forest City will launch a "national search" for new hq. I remember earlier rumors that their executives and upper level management despised working in Cleveland?

Hate the idea of converting any part of the TT into residential.

Hate the idea of converting any part of the TT into residential.

 

And they'll be seeking a "catalytic" preservation credit. Which would be a pretty poor use of the credit, IMHO. And would make it that much harder for the MayCo bldg to get one.

 

Also, to flee2thecleve's question, it will be scary/exciting to see how FC's HQ selection process unfold. From the article:

 

A Forest City spokesman declined to comment on the potential sale and what it means for the company's presence in the building, and in Cleveland.

 

Forest City is the largest tenant in Terminal Tower, with corporate headquarters offices that occupy roughly 250,000 square feet on the building's lower floors. K&D hopes to convert that space to 300 apartments, though the company will continue to lease those offices to Forest City until early 2018, Price said

Ding ding ding!! Tell this contestant what prize he's won!

 

I don't want to fuel a speculation fire but....

 

No, that would never happen here!!

 

...a couple months ago a contact I have who is very high up at K&D indicated they were in talks for a building that would be a big deal and would surprise people. Wish I knew more. I don't know what is possibly available that would be such a building.  And it is downtown.

 

 

Terminal Tower? ? ? ?

Ding ding ding!! Tell this contestant what prize he's won!

 

I don't want to fuel a speculation fire but....

 

No, that would never happen here!!

 

...a couple months ago a contact I have who is very high up at K&D indicated they were in talks for a building that would be a big deal and would surprise people. Wish I knew more. I don't know what is possibly available that would be such a building.  And it is downtown.

 

 

Terminal Tower? ? ? ?

 

I was just thinking that you predicted it! Haha it makes sense based on what I was told but I never thought TT was an option. This is truly a surprise but combined with the impending Tower City redo it's exciting. I understand the hesitation from some but this is only a partial Conversion. Much of the tower will remain offices.

Hate the idea of converting any part of the TT into residential.

 

Why?  Converting older skyscrapers seems to be a hit in NYC.

 

 

This is big news for a number of reasons. 

1.  Turning a high profile building like Terminal Tower into residential adds even more momentum and 24-7 activity into downtown, I think K&D has a great opportunity to make this a really high profile address in terms of city living for a variety of people.  The building already has great amenities being located atop a train station and next to a mall

 

2.  Forest City going out into the market to relocate their offices will eat up a big chunk of vacancy in other building(s).  Guessing 250k sf they currently occupy at TT is terribly inefficent and low occupancy.  Their new number would probably be 150k or less.  But that's still a big number.

 

3.  It's really remarkable that Forest City continues to shed assets in Cleveland.  I think having Terminal Tower no longer be the home of Forest City will take a long time to get used to

This is big news for a number of reasons. 

1.  Turning a high profile building like Terminal Tower into residential adds even more momentum and 24-7 activity into downtown, I think K&D has a great opportunity to make this a really high profile address in terms of city living for a variety of people.  The building already has great amenities being located atop a train station and next to a mall

 

2.  Forest City going out into the market to relocate their offices will eat up a big chunk of vacancy in other building(s).  Guessing 250k sf they currently occupy at TT is terribly inefficent and low occupancy.  Their new number would probably be 150k or less.  But that's still a big number.

 

3.  It's really remarkable that Forest City continues to shed assets in Cleveland.  I think having Terminal Tower no longer be the home of Forest City will take a long time to get used to

 

What I heard is the planned residential is lower in the building.  I suspect it would have more impact higher up.

 

But yes, someone whose offices were in the building, traveled (by air) for business and lived there would never have to go outside during the winter.  Even if they attended Cavaliers games.

I have been waiting for a housing component of Tower City for....well a LONG time, I'll bust this guy out for that reason  :drunk:

 

 

 

That said, anyone know how high is the quality of K&Ds renovations so far?  Is there an improvement from say 668 Euclid to East Ohio Gas building?

 

 

One other question.  Are there two elevator banks?  Seems weird to have office and residential mingling through the same entrances.

Hate the idea of converting any part of the TT into residential.

 

And they'll be seeking a "catalytic" preservation credit. Which would be a pretty poor use of the credit, IMHO. And would make it that much harder for the MayCo bldg to get one.

 

Also, to flee2thecleve's question, it will be scary/exciting to see how FC's HQ selection process unfold. From the article:

 

A Forest City spokesman declined to comment on the potential sale and what it means for the company's presence in the building, and in Cleveland.

 

Forest City is the largest tenant in Terminal Tower, with corporate headquarters offices that occupy roughly 250,000 square feet on the building's lower floors. K&D hopes to convert that space to 300 apartments, though the company will continue to lease those offices to Forest City until early 2018, Price said

 

I agree, that catalytic credit should be used to bring something huge back to life...not what TT will be going for.  $5MM, I wouldn't have a problem with

Hate the idea of converting any part of the TT into residential.

 

Why?  Converting older skyscrapers seems to be a hit in NYC.

 

 

 

TT is more than an older skyscraper.  It is THE Cleveland landmark IMHO.  I wouldn't be in favor of converting the Empire State Building into residential either.  I worry about what happens 30, 40, 50 years ago when whatever units K&D puts in there become obsolete and dated.  I'm all for residential conversion.  Just some things are off limits to me.  Some buildings should be nobody's 'home'

Hate the idea of converting any part of the TT into residential.

 

Why?  Converting older skyscrapers seems to be a hit in NYC.

 

 

 

TT is more than an older skyscraper.  It is THE Cleveland landmark IMHO.  I wouldn't be in favor of converting the Empire State Building into residential either.  I worry about what happens 30, 40, 50 years ago when whatever units K&D puts in there become obsolete and dated.  I'm all for residential conversion.  Just some things are off limits to me.  Some buildings should be nobody's 'home'

 

When the units K&D puts in become obsolete in 30, 40, 50 years, then....they will be renovated again. Cities and buildings constantly change.

It's a lot harder to empty out an office building for renovations than it is a residential building, and the upkeep tends to be better.

Cleveland's most prominent landmark, Terminal Tower, goes under contract to K&D

 

Forest City to sell Terminal Tower, launch search for new HQ; K&D plans apartments at Tower City

 

May 06, 2016

By STAN BULLARD   

 

In a transaction that puts the location of its corporate headquarters in play, Forest City Realty Trust Inc. (NYSE: FCEA, FCEB) has agreed to sell Terminal Tower to Willoughby-based K&D Group, which plans to convert 10 floors to as many as 300 apartments.

 

Forest City would lease its headquarters office back until 2018, when installation of the apartments likely would begin, primarily on the larger lower floors primarily occupied by Forest City, according to K&D Group CEO Doug Price.

 

Forest City is not spelling out its next move, beyond acknowledging it will exit Terminal Tower.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160506/NEWS/160509839/clevelands-most-prominent-landmark-terminal-tower-goes-under

I have been waiting for a housing component of Tower City for....well a LONG time, I'll bust this guy out for that reason  :drunk:

 

 

 

That said, anyone know how high is the quality of K&Ds renovations so far?  Is there an improvement from say 668 Euclid to East Ohio Gas building?

 

 

One other question.  Are there two elevator banks?  Seems weird to have office and residential mingling through the same entrances.

 

I toured a few of their properties downtown including 668 and East Ohio Gas. Both seemed mediocre to me at best. Basically what you'd expect to see in any mid-market new development. I certainly wouldn't call any of their properties "high end", and that's what worries me about K&D having TT. This building deserves better than what they currently provide.

I have been waiting for a housing component of Tower City for....well a LONG time, I'll bust this guy out for that reason  :drunk:

 

 

 

That said, anyone know how high is the quality of K&Ds renovations so far?  Is there an improvement from say 668 Euclid to East Ohio Gas building?

 

 

One other question.  Are there two elevator banks?  Seems weird to have office and residential mingling through the same entrances.

 

I toured a few of their properties downtown including 668 and East Ohio Gas. Both seemed mediocre to me at best. Basically what you'd expect to see in any mid-market new development. I certainly wouldn't call any of their properties "high end", and that's what worries me about K&D having TT. This building deserves better than what they currently provide.

 

Wasn't it K&D in the Stonebridge Condo construction lawsuit?

Thanks PoshSteve!

I worry about what happens 30, 40, 50 years ago when whatever units K&D puts in there become obsolete and dated.  I'm all for residential conversion.  Just some things are off limits to me.  Some buildings should be nobody's 'home'

 

The offices/layouts in TT are now dated too. Interiors can always be updated to be fresh and contemporary.

I have zero faith that K&D will do anything in the interiors that is worthy of the Terminal Tower. Historical or contemporary, it will be done in a half a$$ manner if going off their past projects is any indication.

To be fair their current downtown lineup isn't really targeting the very high end market that say The 9 or the Schofield are. I've toured their new buildings and they are definitely targeting the entry to mid level range. This project I feel will be quite different than anything else they've done. While I have no information right now, they (K&D) are very excited about this project.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably going to get flamed for this but K&D's rehabs have been pretty solid.  The finishes in TT are going to reflect the rental value and however prestigious we think TT is, these units are not going to rent for $5k a pop.

Any apartment that rents for $5k in Ohio should include a small helicopter or something.

 

Up till now, residential conversion has been synonymous with "relatively worthless for its original intended use."  But I feel like TT can and should be a premier office address for the next 100 years.  This project comes off rather cynical in that sense.  I'm also curious what effect this could have on the public observation deck.  Currently its hours are limited by workday elevator usage.  So what happens when tenants need the elevators 24/7?

 

Totally agree that the Tower City complex would benefit from a residential component, and that sounds like a great thing to... build.

Some buildings should be nobody's 'home'

 

Yet the Van Swerigens designed an apartment into it.  It had a home from it's birth.  Now THAT's the unit I want  :lol:

 

The Greenbrier Suite

I have zero faith that K&D will do anything in the interiors that is worthy of the Terminal Tower. Historical or contemporary, it will be done in a half a$$ manner if going off their past projects is any indication.

People said that about Drury Plaza but that seemed to impress. Patience and confidence my friend! Lol

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

 

I do not see FC moving into any new development unless it breaks ground soon. They need to be out of the TT by the early part of 2018.

I love that TT is moving toward residential, but fear K&D. I live in a K&D building and they are absolutely terrible landlords. They do not have capacity to maintain their current portfolio and there's no way they can keep TT in the condition it needs to be--they can't even clean out the planters outside 1717 or fix the elevators at Reserve.

 

As a tenant at TT and leasee of K&D, I'm worried my office may have to move in a few years :(. Let's hope they can prove me wrong!

 

To the folks who asked about elevators, there are two elevator banks. Only the one on the Renaissance-side goes up to 32 (where you switch to elevator to go to observation deck. I imagine they will take the JACK-side one and make it residential, and keep the Ren-side offices/observation deck. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the 10th floor, where you can currently transfer between banks.

I have been waiting for a housing component of Tower City for....well a LONG time, I'll bust this guy out for that reason  :drunk:

 

 

 

That said, anyone know how high is the quality of K&Ds renovations so far?  Is there an improvement from say 668 Euclid to East Ohio Gas building?

 

Byron Scott lived in 668 for a while.

I have zero faith that K&D will do anything in the interiors that is worthy of the Terminal Tower. Historical or contemporary, it will be done in a half a$$ manner if going off their past projects is any indication.

 

That would be correct. 

Beyond the renovation issues, what's the plan if K&D doesn't get the credit? Nothing? I hope that's not the case.

^None of this is comforting considering K&D is likely the largest RE holder in Greater Cleveland.

I heard there's some residential planned for Erieview Tower as well.  The competition may spur them.