^ True but many of those shopping centers are closer to larger and wealthier populations. Also while people on UO may not care about free parking lots of shoppers do and that puts TC at a disadvantage

I overheard someone today who went shopping and the sales associate said H&M and Nordstrom are coming in. I kind of chuckled a little bit because Nordstrom doesn't seem logical (potentially a Nordstrom Rack if they're going the outlet route) but there was just discussion on this forum of how that might work.

If that's accurate, Nordstrom Rack would be a good draw, along with H&M.

 

But could you imagine if it really were a Nordstrom?  Forest City would have sold their grandmother to bring Nordstrom to Tower City.  I do recall they inked out a deal to bring in Neiman Marcus; that probably would not have turned out well.

 

As for parking, you don't really need free parking, as you've already got what--90K office workers--already in the downtown area, plus another 20K permanent residents.

It would have been entirely different standalone building, if I recall.

It would have been entirely different standalone building, if I recall.

 

You may be right on that.  They were trying to land the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame on that site too, so I really don't think they had it all figured out.

 

Also, judging by some of those renderings and models they were trying to turn that segment of Huron Ave into a mini-Fifth Avenue.

 

Sticking to the Lakefront and Euclid Avenue was definitely the smart thing to do.

As for why the RRHF never was built at the Tower City location was allegedly due to the record store that was added into The Avenue shopping. Not sure how true that ever was.

 

I am surprised the mall hasn't been turned into a similar concept as Caesar's Forum Shoppes. If Gilbert added a performance showroom and an added casino area connecting the facility couldn't the jack casino remain in The Higbee Building and as well on Huron. 

 

^ It was Neiman Marcus that signed a letter of intent to build a store at Tower City

If that's accurate, Nordstrom Rack would be a good draw, along with H&M.

 

But could you imagine if it really were a Nordstrom?  Forest City would have sold their grandmother to bring Nordstrom to Tower City.  I do recall they inked out a deal to bring in Neiman Marcus; that probably would not have turned out well.

 

As for parking, you don't really need free parking, as you've already got what--90K office workers--already in the downtown area, plus another 20K permanent residents.

 

Once again, this is where our hapless leader Frank Jackson, council and Dan Gilbert should put their heads together and think outside the box.  There is a developer with interest in a downtown outlet mall.  If you go down to Ohio Station Outlets in Lodi, I guarantee you 9/10 patrons are also casino fans. 

 

So why not partner with the outlet mall developer to revamp Tower City, and start on Phase 2 of the casino?  Included can be a massive parking structure capable of providing free/cheap/validated parking for the masses.  Maybe even a scale model train to transport the casino folks through the parking ramp to the outlet mall and casino.  Its a nod to the train station heritage, as well as utilitarian, by transporting sedentary casino dwellers from their cars to the entrance.  ;D

 

 

^ To that point, Cleburger[/member] .. the outlets could draw from stores not normally found in Cleveland.

 

- Saks Off Fifth

- Neiman Marcus

- Lulu Lemon (if they do outlets / factory stores)

- Orvis

- Patagonia (same as Lulu)

- And anchor it with the first Lebron-centric store in the country, similar to Jordan outlets.

^Not that is adding to the thread conversation (but that has never stopped me before) but what is your definition of Cleveland?  Saks Off Fifth is at Aurora Farms and Orvis is at Eaton and for years before was in Chagrin Falls.

^ To that point, Cleburger[/member] .. the outlets could draw from stores not normally found in Cleveland.

 

- Saks Off Fifth

- Neiman Marcus

- Lulu Lemon (if they do outlets / factory stores)

- Orvis

- Patagonia (same as Lulu)

- And anchor it with the first Lebron-centric store in the country, similar to Jordan outlets.

 

Outlets/off price stores are a hot part of retail right now. I know my family probably buys 90% of our clothes/shoes/accessories at (especially) Nordstrom Rack,  TJ/Marshall's and outlet stores for key brands like Vineyard Vines, Lacoste, Lucky Brand, Lululemon (yes, they have true outlets) even Shinola...  NEO has a mid level selection of outlet and factory stores but many key brands and/or hot stores, like the ones above, are missing.

 

There are potentially many uses for Tower City, but regular or upscale mall has been done there and exists already in the suburbs. If retail is going to happen then an off-price/outlet destination would be a draw to many. And the days if outlets needing to be I.

 

Woodbury Common, an hour outside NYC, is the gold standard of outlets - they'd be wise to copy... + add some bigger box uses, too.

Outlet destination could work.  Especially, with Gilbert's companies controlling a good amount of  parking.  They could set up a parking validation program of sorts.

As far as I know, there aren't many (any?) outlet malls in cities either, with most of them being in outlying counties of major cities, all across the country - Tower City Outlets could be a unique thing.

The in-line retail spaces don't seem large enough for anchors / junior anchors.  Unless they spanned two floors like Gucci / J. Crew did back in the 1990s.

 

As a side note, despite Forest City's spotty development record, I am pleased with how much money and effort they put into the Terminal Tower complex.  They really lost their shirts on it, but it wasn't for lack of trying.  And considering that that so many downtown malls built around the same time (St. Louis Centre, Columbus City Center, etc...) have failed or are on life support, Tower City is something to be happy about.

Woodbury Common, an hour outside NYC, is the gold standard of outlets - they'd be wise to copy... + add some bigger box uses, too.

 

^^Yes yes!  This! 

 

Maybe the small-version of IKEA could be lured to this site as well?

I thought there was a plan to build a giant Outlet Mall on the Lake between Burke and E. 9th. Is it dead? Not a bad thing if it is.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

I thought there was a plan to build a giant Outlet Mall on the Lake between Burke and E. 9th. Is it dead?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

This is the plan I was referring to.  Put Horizon Group Properties in a room with Dan Gilbert and let them figure this thing out for Tower City, not on the Lakefront....

I thought there was a plan to build a giant Outlet Mall on the Lake between Burke and E. 9th. Is it dead?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

This is the plan I was referring to.  Put Horizon Group Properties in a room with Dan Gilbert and let them figure this thing out for Tower City, not on the Lakefront....

 

Judging by the current state of downtown retail, we don't need to build more of it.  But if Horizon wants to purchase and re-lease the Galleria, they should definitely have at.

I thought there was a plan to build a giant Outlet Mall on the Lake between Burke and E. 9th. Is it dead?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

This is the plan I was referring to.  Put Horizon Group Properties in a room with Dan Gilbert and let them figure this thing out for Tower City, not on the Lakefront....

 

Judging by the current state of downtown retail, we don't need to build more of it.  But if Horizon wants to purchase and re-lease the Galleria, they should definitely have at.

 

Horizon's lakefront site hasn't been removed from their website. I assume the project is still going forward at some point. If it gets built I would think it kills any likelihood that TC becomes an outlet center.

Man, I feel that's being very optimistic. Very.

 

My unfortunate hunch: the failures of the Galleria and Tower City have been so demoralizing to potential tenants that, in addition to the overall regressing retail scene nationwide, never mind  our stagnated/decreasing downtown labor force, that we are not getting any retail brick and mortar beyond potential first floor retail for new/converted residential buildings and the (generally) rent-free small shops in the three arcades.

 

Tower City Outlets (think Fashion Outlets by Rosemont near O'Haire) would be amazing - hell, let them all stay rent free outside of utilites and security compensations - but I don't know, There are real systemic problems that are clearly scaring off retailers. Apartment conversions just aren't enough for the required foot traffic to warrant that kind of development.

Man, I feel that's being very optimistic. Very.

 

My unfortunate hunch: the failures of the Galleria and Tower City have been so demoralizing to potential tenants that, in addition to the overall regressing retail scene nationwide, never mind  our stagnated/decreasing downtown labor force, that we are not getting any retail brick and mortar beyond potential first floor retail for new/converted residential buildings and the (generally) rent-free small shops in the three arcades.

 

Tower City Outlets (think Fashion Outlets by Rosemont near O'Haire) would be amazing - hell, let them all stay rent free outside of utilites and security compensations - but I don't know, There are real systemic problems that are clearly scaring off retailers. Apartment conversions judt aren't enough for the required foot traffic to warrant that kind of development.

 

I agree with your hunch.

 

Cities that still have downtown retail scenes are subsidizing them.  That's how it's done.  Foot traffic is created by drawing people in-- the market for downtown retail is more than just downtown.  Always has been, always will be.  TC collapsed after its anchor stores left and the Galleria (inexplicably) never had anchors.  Not enough draw.  Our systemic problems are self-inflicted.  Cleveland has already invested a fortune in downtown retail subsidies but unfortunately the result is Steelyard Commons, which contains all the anchor stores Tower City would ever need.

Man, I feel that's being very optimistic. Very.

 

My unfortunate hunch: the failures of the Galleria and Tower City have been so demoralizing to potential tenants that, in addition to the overall regressing retail scene nationwide, never mind  our stagnated/decreasing downtown labor force, that we are not getting any retail brick and mortar beyond potential first floor retail for new/converted residential buildings and the (generally) rent-free small shops in the three arcades.

 

Tower City Outlets (think Fashion Outlets by Rosemont near O'Haire) would be amazing - hell, let them all stay rent free outside of utilites and security compensations - but I don't know, There are real systemic problems that are clearly scaring off retailers. Apartment conversions judt aren't enough for the required foot traffic to warrant that kind of development.

 

I agree with your hunch.

 

Cities that still have downtown retail scenes are subsidizing them.  That's how it's done.  Foot traffic is created by drawing people in-- the market for downtown retail is more than just downtown.  Always has been, always will be.  TC collapsed after its anchor stores left and the Galleria (inexplicably) never had anchors.  Not enough draw.  Our systemic problems are self-inflicted.  Cleveland has already invested a fortune in downtown retail subsidies but unfortunately the result is Steelyard Commons, which contains all the anchor stores Tower City would ever need.

 

That's a fair point, but I see Steelyard as serving a fundamentally different market than Tower City.  If I live or work Downtown, I am not likely to hop in my car to drive to Steelyard on my lunch break.  Conversely, if I am driving on a particular day, I am not likely to deal with the hassles of going downtown and park my car in a paid garage.  The barriers of parking or retrieving a car are quite high in both time and cost.

Which is why an outlet mall, if it's going to be retail, makes the most sense.  With parking subsidized by the casino phase 2, it would certainly boost the destination status. 

 

Foxwoods is another that I've been to in the metro NYC area that comes to mind:

 

https://www.tangeroutlet.com/foxwoods/stores

 

 

 

 

 

This Outlet talk is all great talk, But does anyone know what Dan Gilbert is thinking?

This Outlet talk is all great talk, But does anyone know what Dan Gilbert is thinking?

 

True. Does anyone have insights on what is being planned? Are outlet retailers actually being considered??

This Outlet talk is all great talk, But does anyone know what Dan Gilbert is thinking?

 

I have a feeling he's thinking about how dreadfully awful his basketball team is. But this is the intriguing question. On the one hand he's the guy saving downtown Detroit. Will Cleveland get anything even approaching that level of his attention?

This Outlet talk is all great talk, But does anyone know what Dan Gilbert is thinking?

 

I don't have The Twitter.  Can someone tweet him a link to our forum?

This Outlet talk is all great talk, But does anyone know what Dan Gilbert is thinking?

 

I have a feeling he's thinking about how dreadfully awful his basketball team is. But this is the intriguing question. On the one hand he's the guy saving downtown Detroit. Will Cleveland get anything even approaching that level of his attention?

 

When it comes to Downtown, Bedrock--that's Danny Gilbert's real estate arm--seems to be limited to the Tower City complex so far.  But judging by his Detroit acquisitions, I don't see many buildings in Cleveland that fit what he would be looking for.

 

Modified: He also purchased the old May Company building.  (Thanks Ken.)

 

Now outside of Downtown, his people renovated Thistledown, which may not be the choice I would have made since the Seminoles dumped all that money into Northfield Park.

Bedrock also bought the May Company building last fall...

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170901/news/134201/dan-gilberts-bedrock-buys-old-may-co-ontario-street-buildings-12

New Bedrock Cleveland Vice President Ken Till says Tower City's future is his top priority

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Bedrock, the owner of high-profile downtown Cleveland properties including the Avenue shopping mall at Tower City, the May Co. building on Public Square and the Ritz-Carlton Cleveland hotel, has hired Ken Till as a vice president of development responsible for the Detroit-based company's projects here.

 

Ken Till is Bedrock's new vice president of development for Cleveland.

Bedrock

 

Till, who is 53, joined Bedrock last month.

 

He's the company's first executive on the ground in Cleveland, where Bedrock and its affiliates - all part of the Quicken Loans family of businesses - have established a major foothold in the center city.

 

During an interview Tuesday, Till said revitalizing the vacancy-plagued mall at Tower City tops his to-do list. "We're putting together a team to aggressively pursue that project," he said, though he wouldn't discuss the details.

 

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2018/02/new_bedrock_cleveland_vice_pre.html#incart_river_home

Although Bedrock may be closer to undertaking a project at May Co., Till said his main priority will be to put together a plan for The Avenue shops, the retail portion of Tower City Center.  The shops have languished and vacancy has grown at the property since Bedrock bought it in 2016 from Forest City Realty Trust. The multilevel retail center was installed by Forest City in a 1990 remake of the city's former central train station.  "Really, Tower City is the hub for everything else we have going on in Cleveland," Till said. "It's vital to us that the heart of the assets we own is reimagined to be all it can be."  He said he will scope out community needs for the space, which has remained 100% retail, although that industry has changed dramatically.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180218/news/152301/former-may-co-building-get-interior-demolition

I dug out my copy of the original mall directory for Tower City Center / The Avenue.  With its grand opening on March 29, 1990, the mall had very upscale tenants like Barneys New York, Gucci, and Fendi.  For a short while it looked like Downtown Cleveland was going to be the region's top shopping destination.  Following the fire sale of the buildings and the current lackluster tenant mix, I can only assume the old brochure would be regarded like an embarrassing yearbook photo.

 

Unfortunately, I had to shrink the images to fit on the screen.  If anyone is interested in the full-size scans, let me know.

 

Here's the Map Cover:

Now, Here's the Inside:

And Finally, Here's the Outside:

I’d love to see those “come on down to the Avenue” commercials again.

 

YouTube?

 

 

The brochure is full of retailers that no longer exist anywhere....

The brochure is full of retailers that no longer exist anywhere....

 

How true.  I spent many hours at the Rand McNally store.  Not just the Tower City one either.

 

How true.  I spent many hours at the Rand McNally store.  Not just the Tower City one either.

 

Loved that store and the model train store that had a good selection of railroad history books. Spent many hours and many dollars in those two stores.

Cross-post from the May Company thread:

 

Does anyone know what Gilbert's intentions are with the building?

 

Bedrock's Ken Till was at this year's CIFF closing ceremony and along with stating the film festival would be invited back next year for CIFF 43, he made comments about the May Company Building and what the plan is for the interior, some of which was in the Crain's article

 

80,000 square feet of retail

300 apartments

Opening summer 2020

Planning for the "reimagining" has begun

 

You can view his comments from the ceremony here:

April 27, 2018 3:17 pm

K&D launches work Terminal Tower remake

By STAN BULLARD

 

K&D Group of Willoughby has launched the $112 million remake of more than 10 floors of Terminal Tower to apartments.

 

"Demolition is underway," K&D Group CEO Doug Price said in a phone interview. "Our plan always has been to begin work as soon as possible after Forest City moved its headquarters."

 

Cleveland-based Forest City Realty Trust Inc. (NYSE: FCEA) finished moving to Key Tower on the other side of Public Square by the end of March. Its floors are the heart of the plan to add residential to the building because its floors were concentrated in the large base of the 52-floor building while K&D will continue to operate the tower part of the building as offices. The building will accommodate 301 apartments.

 

The start was a bit of a surprise because K&D applied for an allocation of $2 million in the next round of the Ohio Historic Preservation Tax Credit program, which will not be decided by the Ohio Development Services Agency and the Ohio History Connection until June.

 

"We still need the money," Price said. "We'll have a $2 million hole without it."

 

However, K&D closed on most of the financing for the project on April 19, Price said.

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180427/news/159771/kampd-launches-work-terminal-tower-remake

More residents on Public Square is great, but I still worry about K&D being the ones to take this on. Fingers crossed I'm proved wrong, but I think such a landmark as Terminal Tower deserves better than them.

More residents on Public Square is great, but I still worry about K&D being the ones to take this on. Fingers crossed I'm proved wrong, but I think such a landmark as Terminal Tower deserves better than them.

 

At least they can't screw up how the building interacts with street. Their Flats buildings are foreboding.

More residents on Public Square is great, but I still worry about K&D being the ones to take this on. Fingers crossed I'm proved wrong, but I think such a landmark as Terminal Tower deserves better than them.

 

Why? Have you been inside of 1717, 668, leader or the Hanna building?

I’ve lived in one of the aforementioned K&D buildings for over three years. Sure, the fixtures and fittings are not spectacular - one notch above builders stock and it does make me smile when they advertise ‘luxury’ apartments, but that’s why they’re half the price of the 9 or FEB.  The common areas are well done and things are well maintained overall. Be interesting to see if they do step up the quality in TC and the Halle. It’s easy to find supposed horror-stories about any landlord, but I’ve never had a single problem with them.

They’ve been upping their game with each building, I will get to see Halle next week but based on what I’ve seen it will be the nicest yet.  They plan to market Terminal Tower as their flagship property, very high end so I would expect this to be done well.

I think the reputation comes solely from Reserve Square (and it’s deserved there), but 1717 is very nice. Hoping for the best.

Woodbury Common, an hour outside NYC, is the gold standard of outlets - they'd be wise to copy... + add some bigger box uses, too.

 

^^Yes yes!  This! 

 

Maybe the small-version of IKEA could be lured to this site as well?

 

 

not for long.

 

the empire outlet mall in staten island next to the ferry terminal is almost done and is bringing official outlet mall shopping within the nyc limits.

 

it opens this fall.

 

http://rew-online.com/2018/04/25/empire-outlets-welcome-old-navy/

 

outlet type shops like nordstrom rack and an h&m would be a great fit for tc.

They are starting some visible work on the outside.  These are from the past couple of days.

 

I also saw them taking down some of the awnings along the street today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They are setting up a debris chute

 

 

From the end of MJarboe's article on the May Co. renovations was this reminder from Ken Till, vice president of development for Bedrock in Cleveland, that Bedrock is still "working on it"...

 

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2018/05/landmarks_commission_oks_may_c.html

 

As for Bedrock's other downtown holdings, including the vacancy-plagued Avenue at Tower City shopping mall? Bedrock is working on a revitalization strategy, but Till isn't ready to drop any hints.

 

"Stay tuned," he said.