This project will reintroduce the street grid, create another connection between downtown and the riverfront, create a public boardwalk and public access to the riverfront (that looks like a beach or boat launch or something), it will be built out to the street, and is showing pedestrian access from the boardwalk into what I would presume is micro-retail.  Not to mention this will likely leverage the infrastructure upgrades needed to facilitate another $3B in riverfront development.  And this is all on a site that has been occupied by piles of iron ore for the last hundred years and has now been so abandoned that the City blockaded the street leading to it.  I'm surprised there's any negative feedback at all to this project.  Honestly, with all the urban design improvements proposed, they could put a bland parking garage here and it would still be a homerun.  Or should I say, SLAM DUNK!

 

Cavs-Clinic Riverfront building is big, evolving
By Ken Prendergast / October 19, 2023

 

More illustrations were made publicly available this week, showing the large size of a new facility planned next to the Cuyahoga River in downtown Cleveland for the Cleveland Cavaliers’ basketball practice facility and Cleveland Clinic’s sports health-related medical services. Kansas City-based architectural firm Populous submitted the plans for what would be Bedrock Real Estate’s first new building in its ambitious $3.5 billion riverfront development to the City Planning Commission’s Design Review Committee.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/10/19/cavs-clinic-riverfront-building-is-big-evolving/

Damn. Where are the windows?

It's the earliest of 3D massings.

4 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Damn. Where are the windows?

 

Massings rarely have that level of detail. 

7 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Damn. Where are the windows?

 

They wanted it to double as a nuclear fallout shelter so it's made of 5ft thick concrete walls hence the outward appearance. 🤣

3 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

They wanted it to double as a nuclear fallout shelter so it's made of 5ft thick concrete walls hence the outward appearance. 🤣

Man.. I love UO 😂

5 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

They wanted it to double as a nuclear fallout shelter so it's made of 5ft thick concrete walls hence the outward appearance. 🤣

 

But does it have to be all white?  Why not a little color in our new fallout shelter?

7 minutes ago, X said:

 

But does it have to be all white?  Why not a little color in our new fallout shelter?

If we are gonna survive a nuclear holocaust, we should at least have good design to look at.

31 minutes ago, X said:

 

But does it have to be all white?  Why not a little color in our new fallout shelter?

Because white is the last color you’ll see…

6 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

They wanted it to double as a nuclear fallout shelter so it's made of 5ft thick concrete walls hence the outward appearance. 🤣

Protect Evan Mobley at all costs.

9 hours ago, X said:

 

But does it have to be all white?  Why not a little color in our new fallout shelter?

It’s probably anti-flash white. Which is smart for a fallout shelter so A+ to the design team there. But, as you can see, they’re using a few different shades of grey on the pedestal, too. Ugh! Why can’t we build anything but grey buildings in Cleveland!

Edited October 20, 20231 yr by brtshrcegr

On 10/18/2023 at 11:19 AM, Htsguy said:

Looking forward to seeing how they present this.  Hopefully lots of glass along the river side.

They mentioned perforated metal and glass 

On 10/18/2023 at 1:07 PM, Dino said:

I like that this project will set the table for the rest of the development.  And this project, in this location, doesn't really need foot traffic or retail, so it's a perfect project to start with.

Interestingly they mentioned they’re looking at retail along the board walk for this facility including cafe etc 

From the Gateway north parking garage.

Now imagine this photo with the Hotel Cleveland sign up there!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not a Cleveland.com subscriber, nor did I watch the planning commission meeting, but based on the headline and their Instagram post, it appears the commission wasn't happy with elements of the design, in particular the large riverfront parking component. Personally, I agree and I'm glad the commission is pushing back on this.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/10/cleveland-planning-commission-wants-bedrock-cavs-clinic-to-up-their-game-on-design-of-riverfront-practice-facility.html

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy0_PPxsY4_/

3 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I'm not a Cleveland.com subscriber, nor did I watch the planning commission meeting, but based on the headline and their Instagram post, it appears the commission wasn't happy with elements of the design, in particular the large riverfront parking component. Personally, I agree and I'm glad the commission is pushing back on this.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/10/cleveland-planning-commission-wants-bedrock-cavs-clinic-to-up-their-game-on-design-of-riverfront-practice-facility.html

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy0_PPxsY4_/

They voted five to nothing in favor of the conceptual plan so they could’ve been that displeased.

Some key takeaways - the commission is excited and supportive of the development overall, but definitely wants lots of refinement along the ground level especially (which I totally agree with and am glad they were vocal about that).

 

Commission's concerns/considerations: 

- Concerns that the riverfront walkway dead-ends abruptly at the driveway entrance to the ground-floor garage.

- The kayak launch area needed greater definition.

- The bridge structure over Eagle Avenue needs additional “articulation, revision or elimination.’’

- The riverwalk promenade needs “improvement and further articulation beyond 30 feet of hardscape.’’

 

The project team also sounded like they understood the comments and would work on them. Most notably, there was mention about looking to potentially add a coffee shop/cafe, which I think would do wonders, especially if it was placed at the corner by the kayak launch to help better anchor and activate the riverwalk there.

Some key takeaways - the commission is excited and supportive of the development overall, but definitely wants lots of refinement along the ground level especially (which I totally agree with and am glad they were vocal about that).
 
Commission's concerns/considerations: 
- Concerns that the riverfront walkway dead-ends abruptly at the driveway entrance to the ground-floor garage.
- The kayak launch area needed greater definition.
- The bridge structure over Eagle Avenue needs additional “articulation, revision or elimination.’’
- The riverwalk promenade needs “improvement and further articulation beyond 30 feet of hardscape.’’
 
The project team also sounded like they understood the comments and would work on them. Most notably, there was mention about looking to potentially add a coffee shop/cafe, which I think would do wonders, especially if it was placed at the corner by the kayak launch to help better anchor and activate the riverwalk there.

 
Great summary - thanks for sharing. Makes me think about the river kayaking rentals along the Chicago river - there are tons of food trucks / cafes / beer gardens along that stretch. Makes for a nice combo activity. We could easily have that here. 

There's been a lot of talk about parking on this project, so I'd like to point out a few items...

These parcels are currently zoned General Retail and General Industry.  Parking garages and surface parking lots are legal uses in these zoning districts.

 

A quick estimate from the published drawings show that the building (excluding parking) contains 61,500sf of "clinic" space, and 48,000sf of Cavs practice space (this number might be larger, I can't tell).  A quick estimate also shows that zoning code would REQUIRE about 600 parking spaces, maybe more!  That equals 2-3 acres of parking!!!  REQUIRED!!!

 

One of several reasons this project is subject to review by the Planning Commission in the first place, is that the project will need to seek a variance to REDUCE the amount of parking it is required to provide.

 

This is not in an overlay district so I don't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) a layer of retail liner is required to screen parking here.  Not to mention that the publicly accessible riverfront promenade or a kayak launch is absolutely not required (or at least it wasn't until Bedrock proposed it in their master plan).

 

I'm not advocating for this design, but I think it is worth noting how much this design already deviates from code.  If Cleveland wants designers to "up their game", as the headline put it, the City needs to rethink it's own guidelines too.

 

I thought parking minimums were reduced/eliminated with the new Transportation Demand Management policy? 

 

https://signalcleveland.org/cleveland-to-scrap-parking-requirements-near-frequent-public-transit-stops/

Except he doesn't have the money to do everything he wanted in Phase 1 of the riverfront development or he wouldn't have pulled the Cavs/Clinic piece out of it, moved it to the other side of Collision Bend, and called it Phase 1A. Right now, I suspect he's like everyone in one way -- he can't get the banks to ante up for big projects. Granted, phase 1A is a decent-sized project, but Phase 1 was going to be 1 million square feet (including parking). There's a saying going around in development circles -- "Stay alive to 2025." Not sure what the significance of 2025 is, though.

2025 is currently the forecast for beginning our path to the “long term” interest rate. The federal reserve is planning to start dropping (very slowly) next year with more significant cuts taking place sometime in 2025, pending inflation and other macro numbers. But the higher rate will almost definitely be with us through the end of next year. 
 

“Fed officials expect rates to sit at a median of 5.6% by year's end, the same as its projection of 5.6% in June's forecast, 5.1% by the end of 2024 versus 4.6% in June and 3.9% by the end of 2025 from 3.1% in June, maintaining its 2.5% long-term estimate”

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2023/09/20/fed-pauses-interest-rate-hikes-again-but-ups-long-term-forecast/amp/

5 minutes ago, Henke said:

2025 is currently the forecast for beginning our path to the “long term” interest rate. The federal reserve is planning to start dropping (very slowly) next year with more significant cuts taking place sometime in 2025, pending inflation and other macro numbers. But the higher rate will almost definitely be with us through the end of next year. 
 

“Fed officials expect rates to sit at a median of 5.6% by year's end, the same as its projection of 5.6% in June's forecast, 5.1% by the end of 2024 versus 4.6% in June and 3.9% by the end of 2025 from 3.1% in June, maintaining its 2.5% long-term estimate”

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2023/09/20/fed-pauses-interest-rate-hikes-again-but-ups-long-term-forecast/amp/

I imagine even once rates "hopefully" start to decline, lending institutions are not going to immediately start throwing money at projects.  They will probably be doing a fair amount of soul searching after the current retrenchment before they gear up again.

23 minutes ago, KJP said:

Except he doesn't have the money to do everything he wanted in Phase 1 of the riverfront development or he wouldn't have pulled the Cavs/Clinic piece out of it, moved it to the other side of Collision Bend, and called it Phase 1A. Right now, I suspect he's like everyone in one way -- he can't get the banks to ante up for big projects. Granted, phase 1A is a decent-sized project, but Phase 1 was going to be 1 million square feet (including parking). There's a saying going around in development circles -- "Stay alive to 2025." Not sure what the significance of 2025 is, though.

I am wonder if another reason Bedrock is holding back on the more significant 1B phase, which will be closer to the heart of the development, is due to the city.  They are not even close, as far as I can tell, to pulling the trigger on the unique funding scheme they are coming up with to implement the major and necessary infrastructure  improvements on the site, let alone schedule shovels in the ground for those improvements.  All that will take time and need to be completed first.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Except he doesn't have the money to do everything he wanted in Phase 1 of the riverfront development or he wouldn't have pulled the Cavs/Clinic piece out of it, moved it to the other side of Collision Bend, and called it Phase 1A. Right now, I suspect he's like everyone in one way -- he can't get the banks to ante up for big projects. Granted, phase 1A is a decent-sized project, but Phase 1 was going to be 1 million square feet (including parking). There's a saying going around in development circles -- "Stay alive to 2025." Not sure what the significance of 2025 is, though.

Next Presidential term maybe?

It’s happening!!🥳

Is it fair to say I scooped Bedrock? By three months?

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/08/04/bedrock-to-start-riverfront-work/

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Is it fair to say I scooped Bedrock? By three months?

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/08/04/bedrock-to-start-riverfront-work/

It's not a contest - but you won.  🙂

5 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

It's not a contest - but you won.  🙂

 

Journalism is absolutely a contest. A highly competitive one.

This past week I heard a rumor from someone who knows a tenant at Tower City that next year all tenants may be forced to move out of the building due to unknown reasons. The conspiracy theory stated in the same conversation was that there may be structural issues with the building that need to be addressed. 

 

Has anyone else heard this? Is this crazy talk?

24 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

This past week I heard a rumor from someone who knows a tenant at Tower City that next year all tenants may be forced to move out of the building due to unknown reasons. The conspiracy theory stated in the same conversation was that there may be structural issues with the building that need to be addressed. 

 

Has anyone else heard this? Is this crazy talk?

The only thing I've heard like that and is not a rumor, is that there are lots of leaks in the areas of the mall under Prospect and Huron Avenues. Those roads are really bridges there with Tower City running underneath and they've had lots of water intrusion issues through the years. Not a structural issue, but an issue just the same.

8 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The only thing I've heard like that and is not a rumor, is that there are lots of leaks in the areas of the mall under Prospect and Huron Avenues. Those roads are really bridges there with Tower City running underneath and they've had lots of water intrusion issues through the years. Not a structural issue, but an issue just the same.

Interesting and predicted.  I remember way back when they were doing the initial construction a friend's father was visiting Cleveland from Pasadena.  He was an architect and his son took him to view the project that was nearing completion.  The first thing out of his mouth after taking everything in was his prediction that the mall would have tons of water intrusion issues after a few years and for the life of the complex.

Edited December 5, 20231 yr by Htsguy

I wonder if that's why they shut down the fountain?

28 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The only thing I've heard like that and is not a rumor, is that there are lots of leaks in the areas of the mall under Prospect and Huron Avenues. Those roads are really bridges there with Tower City running underneath and they've had lots of water intrusion issues through the years. Not a structural issue, but an issue just the same.

Weren’t those sections of Prospect and Huron recently rebuilt, specifically to avoid those issues?

On 10/27/2023 at 12:21 PM, KJP said:

Except he doesn't have the money to do everything he wanted in Phase 1 of the riverfront development or he wouldn't have pulled the Cavs/Clinic piece out of it, moved it to the other side of Collision Bend, and called it Phase 1A. Right now, I suspect he's like everyone in one way -- he can't get the banks to ante up for big projects. Granted, phase 1A is a decent-sized project, but Phase 1 was going to be 1 million square feet (including parking). There's a saying going around in development circles -- "Stay alive to 2025." Not sure what the significance of 2025 is, though.

I've been told all funding is frozen until Q2 2024 at the earliest as banks stabilize. 2025 may be the golden number on that. Lots of land acquisitions and holdings at the moment.

35 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I wonder if that's why they shut down the fountain?

That's unrelated. The water intrusion is happening on the upper levels directly under the roads. The fountain could've been leaking, but I'm not privy to those details.

 

16 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Weren’t those sections of Prospect and Huron recently rebuilt, specifically to avoid those issues?

Yes, but they are still leaking. Leaks are real hard to find on flat roofs with lots of equipment on them even harder with skyscrapers on top of them! Lol

Edited December 5, 20231 yr by Mov2Ohio

19 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Weren’t those sections of Prospect and Huron recently rebuilt, specifically to avoid those issues?

There were major design problems that have led to sever cracking in the deck. The city and the design firm are in dispute right now, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it resulted in a lawsuit.

2 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

This past week I heard a rumor from someone who knows a tenant at Tower City that next year all tenants may be forced to move out of the building due to unknown reasons. The conspiracy theory stated in the same conversation was that there may be structural issues with the building that need to be addressed. 

 

Has anyone else heard this? Is this crazy talk?

I currently live in the apartments in terminal tower, and I've heard no such rumor. 

 

1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The only thing I've heard like that and is not a rumor, is that there are lots of leaks in the areas of the mall under Prospect and Huron Avenues. Those roads are really bridges there with Tower City running underneath and they've had lots of water intrusion issues through the years. Not a structural issue, but an issue just the same.

A new leaky pipe opens up in the parking garage every month. 

This past week I heard a rumor from someone who knows a tenant at Tower City that next year all tenants may be forced to move out of the building due to unknown reasons. The conspiracy theory stated in the same conversation was that there may be structural issues with the building that need to be addressed. 
 
Has anyone else heard this? Is this crazy talk?

If true I wonder if they'd move them to the underutilized Prospect Avenue storefronts. I honestly think that would be a lot better for the long term success of the storefronts due to increased visibility.

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

On 12/5/2023 at 11:34 PM, Enginerd said:

There were major design problems that have led to sever cracking in the deck. The city and the design firm are in dispute right now, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it resulted in a lawsuit.

I wonder if they never factored in the 250 fully-loaded ten-axle semi dump trucks driving over it daily?  

4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

I wonder if they never factored in the 250 fully-loaded ten-axle semi dump trucks driving over it daily?  

 

It's almost like we need a direct truck route into the Flats, like a heavy-duty ramp and Cuyahoga River bridge from near the Ontario-Inner Belt interchange that bypasses the central business district... oh wait.

 

I'll continue this discussion in the Port Authority thread in the transportation section.

 

 

On 10/20/2023 at 11:22 AM, BoomerangCleRes said:

They mentioned perforated metal and glass 

..

 

The downtown tower that almost was
By Ken Prendergast / January 13, 2024

 

High construction and financing costs along with a longer move-in timeline doomed an intriguing new Downtown Cleveland headquarters building for a growing tech firm relocating from Mayfield Heights. Those construction market headwinds along with the rise in remote working led to Park Place Technologies finding an existing office campus next to Interstate 271 in Highland Heights near its current offices that fit its needs like a glove.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/01/13/the-downtown-tower-that-almost-was/

13 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The downtown tower that almost was
By Ken Prendergast / January 13, 2024

 

High construction and financing costs along with a longer move-in timeline doomed an intriguing new Downtown Cleveland headquarters building for a growing tech firm relocating from Mayfield Heights. Those construction market headwinds along with the rise in remote working led to Park Place Technologies finding an existing office campus next to Interstate 271 in Highland Heights near its current offices that fit its needs like a glove.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/01/13/the-downtown-tower-that-almost-was/

That’s a bummer.. however I’m encouraged to hear the Bibb administration is being proactive in attracting jobs.  Bodes well for Cleveland and the metro area as a whole.

I'm getting a little worried about the Bedrock plan.  It seems like they may need to scale it down.

7 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm getting a little worried about the Bedrock plan.  It seems like they may need to scale it down.

 

It's a 30-year plan that was proposed a year ago. 

On 1/13/2024 at 1:17 PM, KJP said:

 

It's a 30-year plan that was proposed a year ago. 

I know.  But I'm still worried. I doubt it will be possible to fill all those buildings, even in 30 years. Remember that the Warehouse District parcels including the prime Jacobs lot were surface parking for 30+ years until SHW started building their new HQ. The courthouse is apparently going elsewhere.  It doesn't look like Cliffs will be doing anything in the foreseeable future. Even Rocket Mortgage is now sounding iffy. The Centennial developer is still trying to figure out what to do with that huge building. Landmark and Medical Mutual will soon be vacant and will need to be filled. The NuCLEus site is still a parking lot 10 years after it was proposed. The Flats East Bank development is limping along at a snails pace.  I'm sure Bedrock will do something, but the riverfront development just seems way too aggressive and will likely need to be scaled down. Sorry, just being realistic.

 

Edited January 14, 20241 yr by LibertyBlvd