I parked at Tower City a few times when Jacobs Field opened in 1994.  I believe special event parking was $4 then.

 

Edited July 18, 2024Jul 18 by LibertyBlvd

19 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

 

This old rail station would be the perfect terminus for CVSR, but its at the complete opposite end of the Riverview site.  This plan is an explicit rejection of using this building.  If the plan is built out as proposed, the right of way to this old station will be completely blocked off.  And if you're proposing a structure like this be built at the southeast site in the plan, 1) it doesn't have the history; 2) it doesn't have the connectivity.  

 

 

 

^ B&O could be the perfect boutique hotel or hostel serving Towpath travelers.  

19 hours ago, Geowizical said:

Do people think it's really that easy to just build new train tracks right through the middle of the riverfront development to the other side???. Having the CVSR terminate at/near the old terminal building is extremely impractical from a cost perspective and would just serve as another barrier to opening up public walking access to the riverfront - literal train tracks creating a brand new barrier between Tower City and the water's edge through the riverfront site, because that's the only direction it could come from. That is, unless we're going to dig tunnels to bury the CVSR underground haha

 

 

The tracks don't really seem to affect pedestrian access in Peninsula. Unless we are factoring in greater frequency? Even then this train may just be crawling at this point. I don't know. For all this money being spent on high priced consultants it seems weird that there hasn't been more communication on this from the developer. 

On 7/17/2024 at 12:43 PM, cadmen said:

It seems to me that investing time, energy and money to bring the rail line 98% of the way to Tower City only to end up in a cheaper but inconvenient location is a waste of a great opportunity. It's like putting rail stops in out of the way locations because it's cheaper. 

 

If you're not going to put something in a position where it can be successful then don't bother. This kind of short sighted thinking is just stupid.

 

I agree that bringing the train all the way to Tower City is undoubtedly the better move in the long term, even if that means it's more complicated and expensive. 

 

That said, I think it's really important that this extension happens even if it's not perfect. As someone without a car, I've been wanting to take the CSVR for a long time but haven't had the opportunity to trek all the way out to Rockside. A station anywhere within a reasonable biking distance of downtown would make it significantly more accessible for people like me. Like others have said, it's not inconceivable that RTA could add a connection to the station in the future making it reasonably easy to transfer. 

What is the max grade CVSR trains could handle?

5 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

I agree that bringing the train all the way to Tower City is undoubtedly the better move in the long term, even if that means it's more complicated and expensive. 

 

That said, I think it's really important that this extension happens even if it's not perfect. As someone without a car, I've been wanting to take the CSVR for a long time but haven't had the opportunity to trek all the way out to Rockside. A station anywhere within a reasonable biking distance of downtown would make it significantly more accessible for people like me. Like others have said, it's not inconceivable that RTA could add a connection to the station in the future making it reasonably easy to transfer. 

 

You can take RTA to the Rockside station. The #54 bus serves it. Walk through the Lock 39 Trailhead and across the trail bridge over the river into the station.

 

5 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said:

What is the max grade CVSR trains could handle?

 

CVSR staff want 1% or less but passenger trains can handle 2% grades.

On 7/20/2024 at 12:44 AM, KJP said:

 

You can take RTA to the Rockside station. The #54 bus serves it. Walk through the Lock 39 Trailhead and across the trail bridge over the river into the station.

 

From where I am using the 54 to get there would require at least 2 hours and 2-3 transfers. Even using other routes and getting off within walking distance would take almost 1.5 hours. I don't think very many people want to spend 3-4 hours round trip on the RTA just to get to the actual ride. 

 

Anything near downtown would be a 25-30 minute bike ride for me, in comparison. 

Sometimes a car-free friend of mine who lives in Little Italy takes the 77 bus to Rockside and walks down the hill to CVSR to go to Akron (before Akron Metro RTA expanded to University Circle). The 77 is a pretty fast bus.

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2024/07/cleveland-proposes-1-billion-plus-incentive-package-for-sprawling-bedrock-riverfront-plans.html

 

Quote

Bibb’s incentive package was introduced to City Council at its July meeting and was approved by the City Planning Commission on Friday morning. On Tuesday, council members will get their first chance to publicly vet the plan, and they could approve it as early as Aug. 7.

 

Looks like the $1B would come from various TIFs and some interest costs on financing potentially. If we as a city had to choose between paying $1B for a stadium or to get this project over the finish line I think it's a no brainer lol 

 

Cleveland, Bedrock seek $1 billion for riverfront development

By Ken Prendergast / July 26, 2024

 

City Planning Commission today voted unanimously to recommend that City Council approve a 45-year, project-specific tax-increment financing (TIF) deal with Bedrock Real Estate to generate $400 million for infrastructure to support Bedrock’s $3.5 billion riverfront development. This would create a second, albeit smaller TIF district downtown to support major waterfront and urban core improvements that could ultimately generate up to $1 billion in public funds for the riverfront.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/07/26/cleveland-bedrock-seek-1-billion-for-riverfront-development/

City Council wants front-end benefits yo pass TIF. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/bedrock-seeks-cleveland-tif-changes-accelerate-riverfront-development

Sorry but I could not help spitting out my beer 🤣 at this comment:

 

Can't wait for only 25% of this to be completed by 2030 and the rest of the money somehow embezzled.

 

 

I'll admit I haven't been into TC in a minute, the accent lighting is new to me. Despite the photo looking like a deadzone, the entire place is hopping with WWE folks today.

 

 

The last time I was in there a few months ago, almost all the vendor spots in the food court were occupied. Was great to see. It really needs an anchor. Even a Marshall’s or TJ Max would do great there.

*Warning - griping below*
I went a couple Sundays ago after taking the kids to the splash pad and one of them needing to use the restroom.  It was a little after 5:30 and was told by an employee that both restrooms (food court and past the English Oak Room) were closed.  Fortunately he was able to hold it until we got home, because apparently the closest option after that is using the one in Wahlburgers without buying anything.

24 minutes ago, sizzlinbeef said:

*Warning - griping below*
I went a couple Sundays ago after taking the kids to the splash pad and one of them needing to use the restroom.  It was a little after 5:30 and was told by an employee that both restrooms (food court and past the English Oak Room) were closed.  Fortunately he was able to hold it until we got home, because apparently the closest option after that is using the one in Wahlburgers without buying anything.

Are the ones at Rebol not publicly accessible?

3 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

Are the ones at Rebol not publicly accessible?

They are at least not outwardly advertised on the square.  I have never actually gone in to check.  I would feel the same sort of guilt not purchasing anything there though.   My only other thought that day was using the library, but now I see they aren't open on Sundays.

2 hours ago, Enginerd said:

Are the ones at Rebol not publicly accessible?

Not really. You need to ask for a code to get into the restrooms. But I would be surprised if they wouldn't give it to you.

On 8/2/2024 at 2:46 PM, sizzlinbeef said:

They are at least not outwardly advertised on the square.  I have never actually gone in to check.  I would feel the same sort of guilt not purchasing anything there though.   My only other thought that day was using the library, but now I see they aren't open on Sundays.

Why feel guilty?  People need a place to use the bathroom, and at least this use of the facility fits in with the quality of its ownership.

My thought was that they were granted the right to operate a private business on public property, and therefore the restrooms should be open to the public 🤷🏻‍♂️

On 8/2/2024 at 2:46 PM, sizzlinbeef said:

They are at least not outwardly advertised on the square.  I have never actually gone in to check.  I would feel the same sort of guilt not purchasing anything there though.   My only other thought that day was using the library, but now I see they aren't open on Sundays.

 

I've gone to Rebol plenty of times solely to use their restrooms... never had any problems. I'm sure they're already getting plenty of business due to their location so I wouldn't worry about feeling guilty. 

 

It really would be nice to have a few real public restrooms downtown though, and better for public health. As a suggestion and to bring the thread back on topic, it would be great if Bedrock's riverfront had a public restroom considering it will be a park in a mixed use district. 

City Council Approves Special TIF District For Bedrock Riverfront Project, Promising Up to $1 Billion in Subsidies

https://www.clevescene.com/news/city-council-approves-special-tif-district-for-bedrock-riverfront-project-promising-up-to-1-billion-in-subsidies-44880867

 

 

Ok, the TIF has passed.  But it isn't effective until 2027.  Does that mean we are unlikely to see any project before the Planning Commission until , say, the second half of 2026? Approval in 2026, bulldozers in 2027?

2 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Ok, the TIF has passed.  But it isn't effective until 2027.  Does that mean we are unlikely to see any project before the Planning Commission until , say, the second half of 2026? Approval in 2026, bulldozers in 2027?

 

That just means that the Cavs/Clinic facility will likely get its certificate of occupancy in 2027 and start to generate tax revenues for the TIF.

26 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

That just means that the Cavs/Clinic facility will likely get its certificate of occupancy in 2027 and start to generate tax revenues for the TIF.

Does the facility have a groundbreaking date yet? I know they said "later this year" and it is fluid based on the progress of the stabilization/prep work, but are they still on schedule for sometime this year?

18 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Does the facility have a groundbreaking date yet? I know they said "later this year" and it is fluid based on the progress of the stabilization/prep work, but are they still on schedule for sometime this year?

The target to start putting piles in, and it’ll have well over 100 of them to sit on, was set for October. But that was 3-4 months ago. 

Can't wait! Wait, l have to wait.

This project is a beneficiary of the state's Brownfield grants

 

 

We stayed in downtown Indianapolis this weekend and, like Tower City, they have a mall (Circle Centre) which has seen much better days. However, they replaced vacancies from Nordstrom and Bon Ton with TJ Maxx and Burlington, both appealing to downtown residents. 
 

As Tower City begins its revitalization, I once again believe they should look to attract retailers such as those, along with Target, etc. Heck, Indy has a Whole Foods and a Kroger downtown… maybe they can bring a second grocer downtown?
 

I’d love for the mall to return to its heyday, but that could be the best way to go as the city makes efforts to increase downtown’s population. 

Don't successful downtown stores require a large daytime workforce population in conjunction with a city at x size with y household incomes in conjunction with z annual tourists? Someone has to buy the goods.

 

I know urbanohio talks about downtown 10,000+ population proudly, but let's presume they're generally late 20-early 40s full time employees. That slims the free hours for traditional shopping. 

 

Indy has thrice the Cleveland population, with much less poverty, yet is still struggling (as are virtually all US cities) due to changing shopping habits, discretionary income falling, crime/perceptions for retail theft, etc.

 

I just don't see any likelihood of Tower City, really the Avenue, gaining tenants save for some urban junk.

 

And I save my snark for Browns/grifters' boards. These concerns are more straightforward since I miss the 90s Avenue and wish there could be some kind of modern version.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2024Aug 11 by TBideon

I'm a bit disappointed with Bedrock. I thought they would be able to revive Tower City once they acquired it. But that has not happened yet.

41 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm a bit disappointed with Bedrock. I thought they would be able to revive Tower City once they acquired it. But that has not happened yet.

 

Agree. I thought TC going residential would help kickstart something to build from. Also: Casino. 

 

Wish there was more clarity for what they were intending. It is sobering that even with all of his connection to retailers Stark wasn't able to get anything going either. 

3 hours ago, TBideon said:

 

Indy has thrice the Cleveland population, with much less poverty, yet is still struggling (as are virtually all US cities) due to changing shopping habits, discretionary income falling, crime/perceptions for retail theft, etc.

 

 

 

The Indy "city" population may be larger - but there are still 1MM+ fewer people within an hour or so of downtown Indy vs downtown CLE - but a lot more convention visitors + plus state capital advantages. 

 

Indy is also ultra suburban focused - with the northern suburbs growing at rapid pace, nationally.  My 4 local siblings there probably go downtown about 1x a year, if that. 

^ its also the same old cleveland and cinci arguement that is always had with columbus, which is of course, which 75sq miles of indy’s 368 sq miles is bigger than cle or cinci? or which 368 sq miles around cle or cinci are smaller than indy? in these cases do city limits borders really matter? comparing real estate is funny like that.

 

anyway, i’m not sure tower city can go back to its cutting edge mega mall earliest days either, but it can still be a very useful and popular urban mall with the right city mix and strong management. maybe eventually more like a smaller paris les halles’ newish westfield forum des halles mix?

 

https://www.westfield.com/en/france/forumdeshalles

3 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm a bit disappointed with Bedrock. I thought they would be able to revive Tower City once they acquired it. But that has not happened yet.

 

I will say, they brought it up to "this mall is pretty dead" territory form "oh my god, how can a space like this be totally and completely abandoned "

3 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

Agree. I thought TC going residential would help kickstart something to build from. Also: Casino. 

 

Wish there was more clarity for what they were intending. It is sobering that even with all of his connection to retailers Stark wasn't able to get anything going either. 

Tower City still seems to primarily cater to commuters, at least with its hours. Maybe it's changed recently, but at least last year everything in the food court was closed by 6pm, if not earlier. I basically had to leave work early if I definitely wanted to get food there. Shopping wasn't much better with everything closed by 7pm, most of it sooner. Hopefully as downtown increasingly transitions to residential the management of Tower City will reflect that. 

I don't think there is any major failure on Bedrock's part. I've said it before, but unless Tower City becomes a busy transit hub again, or Downtown adds another 10-15k, the mall isn't going to come back. The large Downtown office worker population isn't coming back either. 

 

Any mall that isn't integrated with the daily life of a large/dense enough nearby customer base is doomed to fail the day it opens. In the US, malls are almost always the destinations themselves. In Europe and Asia where malls are still thriving, they are in dense communities and usually connected to the busiest transit stations in town that see tens of thousands of people each day.  After the initial excitement of a new mall in the US wears off, over the next 10-20 years most will lose all of their premium tenants to the next new mall in the area. Then it just continues to decline from there. 

 

So unless RTA adds 2 new rail lines and a streetcar to get people moving around Downtown more, or Bedrock builds their 2,000 riverfront housing units, Tower City will just remain the only mall in the area to charge you for parking.

1 hour ago, eyehrtfood said:

 

The Indy "city" population may be larger - but there are still 1MM+ fewer people within an hour or so of downtown Indy vs downtown CLE - but a lot more convention visitors + plus state capital advantages. 

How does the downtown population and median income of Indy and the immediately adjacent neighborhoods compare? I'm guessing it's better off than Cleveland in that regard. This would be a big driver of downtown retail in terms of at least creating a baseline customer base. Cleveland's downtown being cut off from neighborhoods really hurts it too IMO. 

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

I don't think there is any major failure on Bedrock's part. I've said it before, but unless Tower City becomes a busy transit hub again, or Downtown adds another 10-15k, the mall isn't going to come back. The large Downtown office worker population isn't coming back either. 

 

Any mall that isn't integrated with the daily life of a large/dense enough nearby customer base is doomed to fail the day it opens. In the US, malls are almost always the destinations themselves. In Europe and Asia where malls are still thriving, they are in dense communities and usually connected to the busiest transit stations in town that see tens of thousands of people each day.  After the initial excitement of a new mall in the US wears off, over the next 10-20 years most will lose all of their premium tenants to the next new mall in the area. Then it just continues to decline from there. 

 

So unless RTA adds 2 new rail lines and a streetcar to get people moving around Downtown more, or Bedrock builds their 2,000 riverfront housing units, Tower City will just remain the only mall in the area to charge you for parking.

This is a very good point. I think back to what the mall inside DC’s Union Station is (or at least used to be). Good combination of shops, restaurants, and services that tailored to people passing through. That’s why I believe it’s so important for Tower City to get Amtrak back there as well as the CVSR (wishful thinking at this point?.)

 

That, combined with an increased population downtown near Tower City, will go a long way towards bringing it back to life. What can I say, I’m an eternal optimist. 🙂 

2 minutes ago, BuckeyeNative said:

This is a very good point. I think back to what the mall inside DC’s Union Station is (or at least used to be). Good combination of shops, restaurants, and services that tailored to people passing through. That’s why I believe it’s so important for Tower City to get Amtrak back there as well as the CVSR (wishful thinking at this point?.)

 

That, combined with an increased population downtown near Tower City, will go a long way towards bringing it back to life. What can I say, I’m an eternal optimist. 🙂 

I'm a world where everything at the complex becomes apartments including the old SHW HQ. That combined with the hotels attached and some more residential within a few block radius could justify something like a grocery store or target. 

From what I’ve seen in the renderings, I think Bedrock is planning a radical reimagining of the mall, to the point that it’ll bear little resemblance to what it is today.   I mean, my gosh, the plan is to completely remove the second level!  They signed all these short term tenants just to have a reason to keep the place open, knowing that when major construction begins, it’ll probably have to be completely closed and gutted to remove that level.  With all the new residential, green space, etc. planned I’m sure they’ll have market studies to support a specific vision for the type of retail likely to succeed there.  Bottom line, I don’t think it’s fair to judge them based on the current band-aid state, when the long term plan is much more comprehensive.

38 minutes ago, JohnSummit said:

From what I’ve seen in the renderings, I think Bedrock is planning a radical reimagining of the mall, to the point that it’ll bear little resemblance to what it is today.   I mean, my gosh, the plan is to completely remove the second level!  

Is there a rendering/plan of this? I've seen the site plans but not anything of the inside of Tower City.

20 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

Is there a rendering/plan of this? I've seen the site plans but not anything of the inside of Tower City.

@Rustbelter in the renderings released earlier this year (not sure how far back in this thread, sorry) if you zoom in on the area where the mall is, you can get a feel for it.  They didn't specifically show inside, but for purposes of the master plan they showed the whole mall covered in some kind of crazy timber looking structure, continuing toward the river on the parking lot that sits outside of where the mall ends today.  My point is, if it's anything at all like what they illustrated and described, it's going to be a major renovation well beyond the cosmetic, almost certainly requiring existing tenants to vacate during construction.

Just had a random thought. With basketball and the NBA soaring in popularity on a global level, are we underestimating the development potential adjacent to the Cavs facility? Adding the internationally renowned Cleveland Clinic to the mix along with the promise for a degree of public access makes this new district a really intriguing prospect. 

 

Could this stretch along the river between turn into our smaller, more intimate and pedestrian-friendly version of Chicago’s Magnificent Mile? 

1 hour ago, surfohio said:

Just had a random thought. With basketball and the NBA soaring in popularity on a global level, are we underestimating the development potential adjacent to the Cavs facility? Adding the internationally renowned Cleveland Clinic to the mix along with the promise for a degree of public access makes this new district a really intriguing prospect. 

 

Could this stretch along the river between turn into our smaller, more intimate and pedestrian-friendly version of Chicago’s Magnificent Mile? 

 

I used to airbnb my guest bedroom in the Lebron days and the draw of him (and NBA in general) is real. This was GSW-Cavs finals days but still I had plenty of international folks stay with me throughout the season, if they could get it going down there that'd be pretty cool. Similarly I couldn't believe the spending power of WWE fans, walking around TC everyone had some kind of merch, and not just tshirts.

https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2024/08/14/cleveland-clinic-partners-with-sports-data-labs-to-advance-sports-data-collection-and-care-for-athletes-and-patients

On 8/11/2024 at 5:11 PM, BuckeyeNative said:

This is a very good point. I think back to what the mall inside DC’s Union Station is (or at least used to be). Good combination of shops, restaurants, and services that tailored to people passing through. That’s why I believe it’s so important for Tower City to get Amtrak back there as well as the CVSR (wishful thinking at this point?.)

 

That, combined with an increased population downtown near Tower City, will go a long way towards bringing it back to life. What can I say, I’m an eternal optimist. 🙂 

What is the best way to help lobby the City into moving the Amtrak station back to Tower City? I really think the lakefront station is not a good long term idea.

 

@KJP @Boomerang_Brian

1 minute ago, Enginerd said:

What is the best way to help lobby the City into moving the Amtrak station back to Tower City? I really think the lakefront station is not a good long term idea.

 

@KJP @Boomerang_Brian

 

The city won't do anything about the use of Tower City unless Bedrock asks them to. If you show to Bedrock that it's worth their while and they agree, the city will get on board. 

 

To keep this thread on topic, let's discuss it further at:

 

 

Bedrock starts Downtown Riverfront phase one

By Ken Prendergast / August 25, 2024

 

Construction permit applications were filed this week with the city of Cleveland’s Building Department so contractors can start digging and installing foundations for the first phase of Bedrock’s Downtown Riverfront development. That first phase is the Cleveland Clinic/Cleveland Cavaliers Global Peak Performance Center, touted as one of the world’s largest training facilities.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/08/25/bedrock-starts-downtown-riverfront-phase-one/

Looking cool! So any guesses as to how long the Cavs facility will be surrounded by active construction?