So this is a "good thing" (for retail)?  I guess it could be.  Why?  Gilbert and his various partners have a vested interested in the mall given it is attached to the casino and their new hotel and is close to the Q as well as his Quicken Loans office.  They also have $$$ (although how deep is the well?) and have not shown a fear of spending it.

 

That said....a retail venture is something new for these guys and they have little or no expertise.  FC has lots of expertise (which includes connections in the industry and the ability to leverage since they are nationwide) and could do little to turn the mall around.  I for one don't know the reason for it?  Is it Cleveland itself (which FC regularly argues), the economy and the companion contraction of brick and mortar retail nationwide, or (like I believe) they really had no interest in doing what was necessary to rehabilitate the mall given the current environment and really are just plain worn out from trying the past 10-12 years.

 

So for this to be a "good thing" Gilbert and his buddies are going to have to spend big time and bring in a reputable, fresh and vigorous management company to deal with the mall because quite frankly I don't know that they really know what to do with it, or have the time or energy since they are already focused on loans, basketball and gambling. If they do buy it, I hope this is part of their plan.  I imagine they are bright enough to realize this but again, how much of effort do they want to make to foster retail and do they have the interest in spending the big bucks to do it. 

 

And if all this is true (as there tends to be lots of speculation and rumor in this thread), maybe they don't even have an interest in reviving or expanding retail and have other ideas for TC.  I guess we will have to wait and see.

^ I think most people forget who Gilbert has as partners. Matt Cullen was instrumental in redoing the RenCen and adding new retail to it. Nate Forbes controls Forbes Co. which owns Somerset Collection among other upscale malls. They are also heavily involved in adding retail spaces in downtown Detroit. The CityLoft pop up store concept is their child. The "fresh and vigorous management" team is already there. They have plenty of retail in their backgrounds. They don't need to hire anyone.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Family_Dollar_Stores_%28FDO%29/Data/Sales_per_sq._ft

 

Dollar store gross sales 

 

$156.80 a sq foot.

 

 

 

These are reno casinos gaming revenue

 

 

$829 sq/foot on the low end.  $1081 on the high  from  1984-2011

 

http://gaming.unlv.edu/abstract/reno_gamingrev_persqft.html

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the whole mall is included in the approved constitutional gambling parcels.

 

However, I think that all of the movie theater area is included.  I would think that after a purchase the movie theater could be on the way out, providing a huge amount of new phase I expansion space and a connection to the eventual phase II.

 

Anyone know what the lease details are with the theater?

I'd have to go back and review the language of the amendment that was passed to allow the casino, but I'm not sure he'd be allowed to turn TC into Phase II. I recall that the amendment was worded very specifically to allow only certain parcels be developed into casinos.

 

Yes.  If the constitution prohibits it then it probably won't happen.  BUT wasn't the Columbus? casino moved from the amendment location(s)?

 

Any legal wrangling would cut one leg out from under my reasoning.  If it takes me as long to change the rules (or i can't) as it would to build a new building that negates the "ability to open tomorrow" argument. 

 

Of course Gilbert managed to get a constitutional amendment passed that gave him pretty exclusive use to a giant free ATM machine.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/07/horseshoes_gamblers_bet_more_t.html

 

"After paying winnings, the Horseshoe grossed $42.6 million in its first seven weeks, which puts the casino slightly ahead of the owners' projections that they will take in $300 million per year. Horseshoe General Manager Marcus Glover could not be reached for comment."

 

6 million dollars a week passing through his hands at the old higbee building..  Not sure how much ultimately sticks in his pocket but it is significant.

^^There is no reason to think that Phase II could house new movie theaters.  The plan is to incorporate street level retail. 

^^There is no reason to think that Phase II could house new movie theaters.  The plan is to incorporate street level retail. 

 

my understanding is that a real future possibility will be no movie theaters, especially when looking at the financials.

I'd have to go back and review the language of the amendment that was passed to allow the casino, but I'm not sure he'd be allowed to turn TC into Phase II. I recall that the amendment was worded very specifically to allow only certain parcels be developed into casinos.

 

Yes.  If the constitution prohibits it then it probably won't happen.  BUT wasn't the Columbus? casino moved from the amendment location(s)?

 

 

 

Yes the casino in Columbus was moved after another statewide vote to amend the Constitution. 

The problem with the cinema is it's burried in the far back.  Cleveland International Film Festival has record breaking runs each year.  I can't imagine them getting rid of a movie theater altogether...maybe in its current state.

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

Oh and he will use that land he bought....why put your casino on the water where nobody will be looking.  Office/residential on the river front.

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

I don't think this will happen why cut into profits you can make from a nice sized downtown mall by making that phase II of the casino? He already purchased the land for phase II and you don't pay $80 million for land and don't use it.

 

He can have a Casino in front of Tower City (phase I) and one behind it (phase II) while creating a mall that doesn't have to have Gucci, LV type store but a mixture of mid to high end stores to bring in more people to his Casino and shop at the same time. That way he can have 3 sources of income all connected to each other on top of his Quicken Loans business. It just makes dollar sense. Also he can build phase II to include even more retail.

 

There are no profits now,  there is a dollar store in your downtown mall.  Do you really think if the mall was so profitable or had the hopes of being profitable that Forest city would be selling it?  Casino floor is 10? 100? 1000? times more valuable than high end retail...let alone a no name leather or dollar store.

 

I can turn the dollar store into black jack tables tomorrow.  Gambling space now/retail later and only if needed....it has been pretty much proven by the tenants that what we have is too much.

 

Why have 3 sources of income....maximize the best one.  Gambling, renting offices, selling hats......converting hat selling space into slot machines is an absolute no brainier.....especially when you have people waiting in line to play slot machines.

 

Bet you a beer.

Like AJ93 just mentioned the amendment only allows the casino to be built on certain parcels of land. Also I know it's not profitable now but why spend tens to hundreds of millions of dollars building residential/retail (which it's already hard to build as is even though the demand is there) when you have a very capable mall in your hands that you could just add capable stores in? It's saves you a lot of money also downtowns office vacancy rate is also very high along with empty store fronts so he could buy one or more of those buildings and renovate them into residential and retail. It saves him millions of dollars is quicker and less of a headache.

 

It goes back to just making dollar sense, why waste money on building some residential/retail when you have structures waiting to get renovated for exactly that? Nothing's wrong with TC it just needs better stores the traffic is there the stores for the traffic to shop in needs to be there and the mall will be fine.

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

Oh and he will use that land he bought....why put your casino on the water where nobody will be looking.  Office/residential on the river front.

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

I don't think this will happen why cut into profits you can make from a nice sized downtown mall by making that phase II of the casino? He already purchased the land for phase II and you don't pay $80 million for land and don't use it.

 

He can have a Casino in front of Tower City (phase I) and one behind it (phase II) while creating a mall that doesn't have to have Gucci, LV type store but a mixture of mid to high end stores to bring in more people to his Casino and shop at the same time. That way he can have 3 sources of income all connected to each other on top of his Quicken Loans business. It just makes dollar sense. Also he can build phase II to include even more retail.

 

There are no profits now,  there is a dollar store in your downtown mall.  Do you really think if the mall was so profitable or had the hopes of being profitable that Forest city would be selling it?  Casino floor is 10? 100? 1000? times more valuable than high end retail...let alone a no name leather or dollar store.

 

I can turn the dollar store into black jack tables tomorrow.  Gambling space now/retail later and only if needed....it has been pretty much proven by the tenants that what we have is too much.

 

Why have 3 sources of income....maximize the best one.  Gambling, renting offices, selling hats......converting hat selling space into slot machines is an absolute no brainier.....especially when you have people waiting in line to play slot machines.

 

Bet you a beer.

Like AJ93 just mentioned the amendment only allows the casino to be built on certain parcels of land. Also I know it's not profitable now but why spend tens to hundreds of millions of dollars building residential/retail (which it's already hard to build as is even though the demand is there) when you have a very capable mall in your hands that you could just add capable stores in? It's saves you a lot of money also downtowns office vacancy rate is also very high along with empty store fronts so he could buy one or more of those buildings and renovate them into residential and retail. It saves him millions of dollars is quicker and less of a headache.

 

It goes back to just making dollar sense, why waste money on building some residential/retail when you have structures waiting to get renovated for exactly that? Nothing's wrong with TC it just needs better stores the traffic is there the stores for the traffic to shop in needs to be there and the mall will be fine.

 

This one is easy...casino casino more casino.  Casino makes the most dollar sense.  Why sell hats when I can sell you 88 cents for a dollar.  ( I think I read that is the casino payback rate, please someone post the correct information if that isn't it.)

 

Think about that...that is exactly what he is doing.  You give me a dollar, I will give you 88 cents...thank you want to play again? 

 

turn the entire kit and kabdoodle into casino...let others worry about a mall. 

 

Then if I have extra space or land and I have maxed out my casino.....now maybe I will worry about selling you a hat.

 

Why do I want to spend any time/energy/money/capitol building or running anything other than my guaranteed 12 percent payback machine?

 

 

 

 

 

This is getting old pretty quickly.  How about we just wait for some announcements??

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

Oh and he will use that land he bought....why put your casino on the water where nobody will be looking.  Office/residential on the river front.

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

I don't think this will happen why cut into profits you can make from a nice sized downtown mall by making that phase II of the casino? He already purchased the land for phase II and you don't pay $80 million for land and don't use it.

 

He can have a Casino in front of Tower City (phase I) and one behind it (phase II) while creating a mall that doesn't have to have Gucci, LV type store but a mixture of mid to high end stores to bring in more people to his Casino and shop at the same time. That way he can have 3 sources of income all connected to each other on top of his Quicken Loans business. It just makes dollar sense. Also he can build phase II to include even more retail.

 

There are no profits now,  there is a dollar store in your downtown mall.  Do you really think if the mall was so profitable or had the hopes of being profitable that Forest city would be selling it?  Casino floor is 10? 100? 1000? times more valuable than high end retail...let alone a no name leather or dollar store.

 

I can turn the dollar store into black jack tables tomorrow.  Gambling space now/retail later and only if needed....it has been pretty much proven by the tenants that what we have is too much.

 

Why have 3 sources of income....maximize the best one.  Gambling, renting offices, selling hats......converting hat selling space into slot machines is an absolute no brainier.....especially when you have people waiting in line to play slot machines.

 

Bet you a beer.

Like AJ93 just mentioned the amendment only allows the casino to be built on certain parcels of land. Also I know it's not profitable now but why spend tens to hundreds of millions of dollars building residential/retail (which it's already hard to build as is even though the demand is there) when you have a very capable mall in your hands that you could just add capable stores in? It's saves you a lot of money also downtowns office vacancy rate is also very high along with empty store fronts so he could buy one or more of those buildings and renovate them into residential and retail. It saves him millions of dollars is quicker and less of a headache.

 

It goes back to just making dollar sense, why waste money on building some residential/retail when you have structures waiting to get renovated for exactly that? Nothing's wrong with TC it just needs better stores the traffic is there the stores for the traffic to shop in needs to be there and the mall will be fine.

 

This one is easy...casino casino more casino.  Casino makes the most dollar sense.  Why sell hats when I can sell you 88 cents for a dollar.  ( I think I read that is the casino payback rate, please someone post the correct information if that isn't it.)

 

Think about that...that is exactly what he is doing.  You give me a dollar, I will give you 88 cents...thank you want to play again? 

 

turn the entire kit and kabdoodle into casino...let others worry about a mall. 

 

Then if I have extra space or land and I have maxed out my casino.....now maybe I will worry about selling you a hat.

 

Why do I want to spend any time/energy/money/capitol building or running anything other than my guaranteed 12 percent payback machine?

The argument about what to do with TC Is dead because we have to strong contrasting opinions. You didn't though answer my point about it already being difficult to build downtown residential/retail (look at the Flats it took them forever and it's still not entirely secure with phase II) and instead renovating abandoned office buildings for retail and residential which is less of a headache and more viable financially. What is your stance on that?

Hey don't anyone misunderstand me.

 

I live in Detroit Shoreway.  I am much better off if Tower City is returned to its initial glory.  It is no fun having to drive out to Rocky River to buy underwear...or north Olmsted to go to the mall.  The wife uses Clinique, buying it is painful enough, driving 20 minutes to have to do it really puts the pain to you.

 

 

But I am pretty sure that Gilbert will look to maximize his bottom line ahead of my (and downtown resident's) needs or quality of life.

 

Which to me would appear to be, get the casino as big as I can make it as quickly as I can make it.  And if that 80 million dollars he paid for that parking lot is just the price of having that perpetual money machine sitting on public square....then phase II will be 1/2 the mall and the old tower city amphitheater will look like scranton peninsula until it makes economic sense to develop it into new hotel/residential/office/retail.

 

80 mil for that land.........42 million in revenue in 6 weeks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would bet that this move would mean phase II of the Casino will be inside the mall.

 

The casino will be extended into the 1/2 of the mall that is on the same side as the Higbee building..  They will start expanding as soon as the ink is dry.  You can barely walk inside the casino now.  You cant get on a table game, even when the table minimums are $25...instead or 5 or 10.

 

Turning the dollar store into 10 black jack tables gets me tons of cash today...no need to build anything new.....until I sell some riverfront condos.

 

 

Oh and he will use that land he bought....why put your casino on the water where nobody will be looking.  Office/residential on the river front.

The land that was originally slated for phase II will be become office/retail/residential in phases.

 

Buy the under performing mall.  Push the Casino into it.  Build more retail later as needed.  No need to try to figure out how to keep/connect phase I to phase II.

 

Flexibility to maximize profits on "virgin" waterfront land. Attached to 1/2 a mall/casino/office building transit hub.

I don't think this will happen why cut into profits you can make from a nice sized downtown mall by making that phase II of the casino? He already purchased the land for phase II and you don't pay $80 million for land and don't use it.

 

He can have a Casino in front of Tower City (phase I) and one behind it (phase II) while creating a mall that doesn't have to have Gucci, LV type store but a mixture of mid to high end stores to bring in more people to his Casino and shop at the same time. That way he can have 3 sources of income all connected to each other on top of his Quicken Loans business. It just makes dollar sense. Also he can build phase II to include even more retail.

 

There are no profits now,  there is a dollar store in your downtown mall.  Do you really think if the mall was so profitable or had the hopes of being profitable that Forest city would be selling it?  Casino floor is 10? 100? 1000? times more valuable than high end retail...let alone a no name leather or dollar store.

 

I can turn the dollar store into black jack tables tomorrow.  Gambling space now/retail later and only if needed....it has been pretty much proven by the tenants that what we have is too much.

 

Why have 3 sources of income....maximize the best one.  Gambling, renting offices, selling hats......converting hat selling space into slot machines is an absolute no brainier.....especially when you have people waiting in line to play slot machines.

 

Bet you a beer.

Like AJ93 just mentioned the amendment only allows the casino to be built on certain parcels of land. Also I know it's not profitable now but why spend tens to hundreds of millions of dollars building residential/retail (which it's already hard to build as is even though the demand is there) when you have a very capable mall in your hands that you could just add capable stores in? It's saves you a lot of money also downtowns office vacancy rate is also very high along with empty store fronts so he could buy one or more of those buildings and renovate them into residential and retail. It saves him millions of dollars is quicker and less of a headache.

 

It goes back to just making dollar sense, why waste money on building some residential/retail when you have structures waiting to get renovated for exactly that? Nothing's wrong with TC it just needs better stores the traffic is there the stores for the traffic to shop in needs to be there and the mall will be fine.

 

This one is easy...casino casino more casino.  Casino makes the most dollar sense.  Why sell hats when I can sell you 88 cents for a dollar.  ( I think I read that is the casino payback rate, please someone post the correct information if that isn't it.)

 

Think about that...that is exactly what he is doing.  You give me a dollar, I will give you 88 cents...thank you want to play again? 

 

turn the entire kit and kabdoodle into casino...let others worry about a mall. 

 

Then if I have extra space or land and I have maxed out my casino.....now maybe I will worry about selling you a hat.

 

Why do I want to spend any time/energy/money/capitol building or running anything other than my guaranteed 12 percent payback machine?

The argument about what to do with TC Is dead because we have to strong contrasting opinions. You didn't though answer my point about it already being difficult to build downtown residential/retail (look at the Flats it took them forever and it's still not entirely secure with phase II) and instead renovating abandoned office buildings for retail and residential which is less of a headache and more viable financially. What is your stance on that?

 

 

Here is my stance.

 

He will expand into the mall because it is the easiest quickest path to the bigger casino floor.  What is left of the mall he will try to upgrade which should be easier because there is 1/2 the space and 5 x' s the foot traffic.

 

 

It doesn't matter that he spent 80 million for the land where phase II is supposed to go.  42 million in revenue in 6 weeks.

 

 

42 million in 6 weeks, while being sized constrained.  80 mill was just part of the cost of buying the ATM machine.

 

So basically I am not buying the "he didn't spend 80 mil on that land to do nothing".  He did the math, that 80 plus whatever he spent for the mall and the higbee building and the Ritz was worth it....pretty much as is.  He will end up with a casino 3x the current size and 1/2 an upgraded/more upscale mall.  There will be some improvements and renovations but that is it. 

 

Status Quo Ante......

 

UNTIL it is economically viable to build new office/retail/residential THEN you will see some activity on the parking lot.

 

I suspect that you will get a hotel in fairly short order, the rest will be developed at about the same time it makes sense to develop Scranton Peninsula.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the whole mall is included in the approved constitutional gambling parcels.

 

However, I think that all of the movie theater area is included.  I would think that after a purchase the movie theater could be on the way out, providing a huge amount of new phase I expansion space and a connection to the eventual phase II.

 

Anyone know what the lease details are with the theater?

 

That would be a major loss for the Film Festival. The fact that it's downtown and under one roof is a major aspect of its allure.

If Gilbert's team is involved with Somerset Collection - that's real good news - Somerset = one of the handful of best malls in the country. Great store mix...

^I kinda get a chuckle how we can go on and on based on something the "girlfriend" who works at Brooks Brother heard.  Can you imagine the explosion here if something was actually announced with concrete facts?

What makes anyone think they can just close off TC for a casino? For one thing, there's a public rail station and public walkway that the general public must have access to. Are they gonna make it over 21 only? I'm not sure how that would even be legal. There would be all kinds of logistical problems dealing with that.

 

Not to mention, the sheer amount of space that TC covers. That's a massive square footage, much larger than a casino would even need. There's also the issue that some of it is in a historical building. And, as others mentioned, I'm not sure its location is even allowed per the casino amendment.

 

I'm not sure how economically feasible it would be to deal with those headaches when you can start next door with a clean slate. True, the site behind TC has its issue toos but I don't see how it would make sense to entirely gut TC just to build new retail later on. You could take part of TC and covert it, but I don't see how or why you'd take the entire thing for slots and tables.

^I kinda get a chuckle how we can go on and on based on something the "girlfriend" who works at Brooks Brother heard.  Can you imagine the explosion here if something was actually announced with concrete facts?

 

I'll bet the girlfriend didn't know she was knocking over the domino that would lead to the cancelling of the film festival and redevelopment of the Scranton Peninsula!

^words have power!

^I kinda get a chuckle how we can go on and on based on something the "girlfriend" who works at Brooks Brother heard.  Can you imagine the explosion here if something was actually announced with concrete facts?

 

Why do you think I pre-apologized to Mayday?!

^I kinda get a chuckle how we can go on and on based on something the "girlfriend" who works at Brooks Brother heard.  Can you imagine the explosion here if something was actually announced with concrete facts?

 

Yep. Shocking how fast this thing had spun out of control. This is why executives keep their mouths shut (or try to) until they're ready to delineate their projects. Oh, and I was thinking your girlfriend worked at Victoria's Secret, not Brooks Brothers!! :-P

Yes, this has been getting kinda ridiculous the past few days!.... Probably none of it will happen. Perhaps Gilbert will indeed take over The Avenue; then it probably would go ahead and become more upscale again. To the level it was in the early 1990s? Possibly. Imagine if Tiffany & Co. were going to go into a TC space rather than Eton.  That would really be making a statement. As they're not scheduled to open at Eton until some time next year, anything is possible.... I'm told they're in downtown Cincinnati, as far as Ohio is concerned. Yes, Cincy has downtown department stores, which probably was a large factor in Tiffany's deciding to locate there.

Most cities of this size have downtown department stores.  Cincinnati has everything from Tiffany's to TJ Maxx.  It's like they play by a completely different set of rules than Cleveland does.

I think having Macy's headquartered there has helped Cincinnati out a lot. Didn't they downsize the store recently though?

One day they may even downsize it to the point they don't have one any more.  Then Cincinnati will only have a couple of downtown department stores left.

Whatever happened to that plan to attract mid to high end outlet department stores to the downtown storefronts? It seemed like a good idea to me to bring some type of life to the streets.

Most cities of this size have downtown department stores.  Cincinnati has everything from Tiffany's to TJ Maxx.  It's like they play by a completely different set of rules than Cleveland does.

Agreed. Its so absurd. Here's a question though. If you had to, would you subsidize the stores just to get them downtown (tax breaks, etc.)? If it was temporary and it expired after a certain period of time, I would consider it. I don't like the idea of subsidizing department stores but we may not have a choice if we ever want department stores back downtown. That's what Pittsburgh had to do in order to keep some of their department stores downtown.

Most cities of this size have downtown department stores.  Cincinnati has everything from Tiffany's to TJ Maxx.  It's like they play by a completely different set of rules than Cleveland does.

Agreed. Its so absurd. Here's a question though. If you had to, would you subsidize the stores just to get them downtown (tax breaks, etc.)? If it was temporary and it expired after a certain period of time, I would consider it. I don't like the idea of subsidizing department stores but we may not have a choice if we ever want department stores back downtown. That's what Pittsburgh had to do in order to keep some of their department stores downtown.

 

Without hesitation.  Failing to adopt this common practice is one of Cleveland's biggest errors, and the consequences are plain to see.

Pittsburgh subsidized multiple downtown department stores: a lord and taylor, a brand new lazarus, and offered tax breaks to saks to stay open. All in the early 2000s. All three are now closed. It doesn't work unless there is a market.

 

Most downtown departmet stores are closing, miami, all of those in pittsburgh, columbus--it just isnt how we shop any more.

The Macys downtown in Pittsburgh was pretty empty when I was there, and it wasnt it the greatest shape. And it was mostly surrounded by crap so I dont know if its really having any positive effect on downtown Pittsburgh. Its not like Downtown Pittsburgh has any great retailers.

 

Even suburban department stores are not doing so well. I would guess that in the next few years, at least one of the department store anchors at the Mentor mall wont be there anymore, or that Dillards will consolate into one building.

I'm not sure that it is accurate to say that "most" cities this size have Downtown department stores.  I can think of some that do and some that don't.  It would be an interesting research project- number of dept stores, how long they've been there, what subsidies they require.

I actually did some of that research, which is why I still hold these opinions.

 

Also, Pittsburgh's are not all closed, and the beneficial effect of having one downtown can be seen throughout the city proper.

I'd love to see the results.

I'd love to see the results.

 

If you're that interested, you can duplicate them easily enough.

^why not just tell us.  Isn't that what this board is all about?

Most cities of this size have downtown department stores.  Cincinnati has everything from Tiffany's to TJ Maxx.  It's like they play by a completely different set of rules than Cleveland does.

Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St Louis, and Kansas City = "most cities of this size" ?

Most cities of this size have downtown department stores.  Cincinnati has everything from Tiffany's to TJ Maxx.  It's like they play by a completely different set of rules than Cleveland does.

Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St Louis, and Kansas City = "most cities of this size" ?

 

No, but your list is not nearly complete.  Good work so far!  It may be easier to compile a list of cities "this size" and larger that do not have downtown department stores.  Columbus and Detroit are examples, each for entirely different reasons.

 

^why not just tell us.  Isn't that what this board is all about?

 

Because... on this particular subject... my word is meaningless here.  I could post a video link to the CEO of Macy's stating they have a store in downtown Pittsburgh, and everybody would rally around that guy above who claimed otherwise. 

 

But if people get the information themselves, it's somehow untainted.

Most cities of this size have downtown department stores.  Cincinnati has everything from Tiffany's to TJ Maxx.  It's like they play by a completely different set of rules than Cleveland does.

Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St Louis, and Kansas City = "most cities of this size" ?

 

No, but your list is not nearly complete.  Good work so far!  It may be easier to compile a list of cities "this size" and larger that do not have downtown department stores.  Columbus and Detroit are examples, each for entirely different reasons.

It may not be complete but there aren't many more. Are you possibly counting stores such as TJ Maxx as department stores? I'm talking strictly "traditional department stores.” I don't know how else you could possibly think this statement is true.

I think I can add to the list of cities without traditional downtown department stores...I don't believe Baltimore or Denver have one.

This is probably getting too off topic but even in cities that still have traditional downtown department stores, they have seen stores close. Pittsburgh is mentioned but Macy's is the only surviving one and its size been cut down year after year. Nordstrom left Indy even though the city built a new store for them at no cost. KC still has Halls but that's a local store with ties to Hallmark. The Boston Store in Milwaukee is hanging on but Field's left decades ago and the mall its a part of is in terrible shape. At least, in the midwest, there's very few left.

 

Even comeback downtowns like Baltimore lack a true traditional department store. Unless you count off price places like Burlington, Ross, etc. most downtowns seem to be lucky to have one department store left, let alone multiples. And I don't see how subsidies makes a difference as various cities have done that and they still see stores go under. Techincally, Tower City was heavily subsidized but the place still struggled long term and ended up losing its anchor. I don't think subsidies alone can save downtown malls and stores.

I created a new thread if you all would like to discuss further:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,27637.0.html

This is probably getting too off topic but even in cities that still have traditional downtown department stores, they have seen stores close. Pittsburgh is mentioned but Macy's is the only surviving one and its size been cut down year after year. Nordstrom left Indy even though the city built a new store for them at no cost. KC still has Halls but that's a local store with ties to Hallmark. The Boston Store in Milwaukee is hanging on but Field's left decades ago and the mall its a part of is in terrible shape. At least, in the midwest, there's very few left.

 

Even comeback downtowns like Baltimore lack a true traditional department store. Unless you count off price places like Burlington, Ross, etc. most downtowns seem to be lucky to have one department store left, let alone multiples. And I don't see how subsidies makes a difference as various cities have done that and they still see stores go under. Techincally, Tower City was heavily subsidized but the place still struggled long term and ended up losing its anchor. I don't think subsidies alone can save downtown malls and stores.

 

A downtown Burlington's or TJ Maxx could be transformative for Cleveland IMO.  The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite, in that sense.  And the cities you list as losing department stores still have at least one! 

 

Realistically for Cleveland, at this point, it's not clear where we would even put one.  All of the spaces large enough are spoken for.  I would love it if something could be worked out for part of the Higbee's space after Casino Phase II is built, but that's a long shot.

It's slowly happening there; it can happen here:

http://www.jdetroit.com/post/25577250505/call-it-a-comeback-on-woodward-ave

What's the joke about the Cycle Leather sign moved? It's gone from that storefront and I don't see it anywhere else.... Information booth person had told me they expect it to open by November. I'd imagine if this Dan Gilbert speculation is really happening there will be no one definitely coming right now.... Yes, a manager of one of the major stores told me Gilbert's group is definitely taking over and the short lease rumor is true, as well. But also that the casino umbrella organization requires casino's in the same vicinity must be largely attached, physically.

Lights out at Rainbow Kids

 

Legendary Icons store now open (quality shirts btw)

Where is Legendary Icons? I walked around the entire mall (I thought) and didn't see it.  It is also not yet listed on the directory.  I'm all for downtown shopping...was trying to check it out.

Where is Legendary Icons? I walked around the entire mall (I thought) and didn't see it.  It is also not yet listed on the directory.  I'm all for downtown shopping...was trying to check it out.

It's in the hallway with the Gourmet Popper and is a music memorabilia shop (sells tees, and different items based on legendary and current musicians) it just opened 2 days ago that's probably why you didn't see it in the directory.

Hmm...thanks!!