Zane Miller's Boss Cox is probably the best and final word on Cincinnati at this point in time (it has plenty of issues - of style and interpretation, but remains a excellent work). Eggleston sits above the Deer Creek and was the first Bucktown - a big riot happened there during the Civil War. Flooding and the need to canalize the Ohio River did a number on most of the neighborhoods close to the river. W/ the move up the hills, plenty of housing that was built in poor locations before of transportation issues quickly became superfluous. Also continued expansion of the rail system through the basin on the east and west side doomed some of the neighborhoods as well.

This alley house phenomenon would be one way of increasing density, though the street scape wouldn't look as built-out like Cincy since even in the denser areas that had a lot of alley houses in Chicago the buildings were usually seperated by gangways, as ColDayMan notes. There was no solid street wall. Incidentally ColDayMans usage of "gangway" as an urbanist or architetcutural context is the first I've heard outside of Chicago (other than in the nautical sense of a ships gangway). I used to think this was a local dialect thing?

 

I'm glad you caught that :).

well in total the pics are amazing and there are a lot of otr neighborhoods lost, but when you get down to it i am not seeing the sustained height across any one of these blocks. i see a lot of 2-3 or 4 story residential, which takes up a lot of space, and a ton of variation on each block. so the hough LH neighborhood's built environment appears much denser in its utter uniformity. now how many people were actually packed in there in otr is a point well taken and is another story, but i cant imagine those cleveland neighborhood block apts were any different for their day. and btw those couple cle pics were from the late 1960's after the mlk riots, so you can imagine a lot was already long gone by then.

 

oh and hell to the yes the older otr was certainly better looking almost anywhere you went than block after block of uniform drab monster apts in that cle neighborhood, we know that from the era and from whats left and so yes that does make its loss much more of a shame, so no question at all about that one i stand corrected -- seacrest out!  :cool2:

 

 

 

The public landing was always open space.

 

 

well in total the pics are amazing and there are a lot of otr neighborhoods lost, but when you get down to it i am not seeing the sustained height across any one of these blocks. i see a lot of 2-3 or 4 story residential, which takes up a lot of space, and a ton of variation on each block.

 

The initial aerial posted doesn't really show most of Over-the-Rhine itself but much more of downtown and the immediate area west and east (which are now freeway interchanges).  Over-the-Rhine rarely has 2 story structures and is generally 3-5 stories.

 

so the hough LH neighborhood's built environment appears much denser in its utter uniformity.

 

Clearly not.  The uniformity of the first Hough photo consists of trees, A-frame housing with gangway space, and only a small section of dense apartment blocks in that left-central space.  There are some spaced apartment blocks on the central right but that can be found in modern-day Cleveland Heights.  The point is that that photo is not uniform by any eye, including Stevie Wonder.

 

The second Hough photo shows a birds-eye space of about three blocks of some tightly spaced 3-4 story apartment buildings and a view out of the cropped photo up top being your typical A-frame Midwestern housing space.  Again, not uniform by any stretch of the means, let alone  a large portion of Hough versus the West End/Queensgate photo posted.  For a Cincinnati equivalent today, I could take a much denser shot of Pendleton, hiding the future casino lot, and make it look like a 1930's Mumbai, Sepia-tone and all. 

 

now how many people were actually packed in there in otr is a point well taken and is another story, but i cant imagine those cleveland neighborhood block apts were any different for their day.

 

Sure, perfectly logical.  But there aren't "blocks and blocks" of apartment buildings shown in those two Hough photos.  Just sections.

 

and btw those couple cle pics were from the late 1960's after the mlk riots, so you can imagine a lot was already long gone by then.

 

I find it hard to believe those A-pitched wood-frame, spaced housing existed after the riots taking the place of a denser neighborhood.  They look like they date back to an earlier time period.  Sure, the parking lots would've been apartment buildings but either photo shows the neighborhood was clearly more wood-frame spaced if anything, let alone anything incomparable to the Queensgate/West End or Downtown/Basin aerials posted.

 

Basically, it's a lost cause.  Hough was dense but it wasn't Over-the-Rhine dense.  And that's fine because both neighborhoods lost a lot but OTR lost a bit more of something special.

Most of you probably know this site but check it out again for a bigger picture.

 

And to me it appears that Over-the-Rhine was more dense but as a whole Cleveland was more dense.

 

http://www.historicaerials.com/

Cincinnati's density has always stood-out due to topographical differences for which to build (erosion, etc) and thus the flat areas and the areas north of downtown would be the densest (Uptown/Pill Hill, etc).  In that 1932 aerial of Cincinnati heading west, you can see how "sparse" the westside is in comparison to today.  What is quite stark is the density of Camp Washington back then and what it looks like now.  Also, you can see the beginning of the hilltops being dug out for mansions in Villa Hills, KY.

 

The Cleveland 1952 aerial shows what looks like an interesting mix of industry, commercial corridors, and tightly spaced single-family homes.  It's very similar to what you'd find in South Parsons in Columbus today, which almost mirrors that whole Hough/Payne-Sterling zone east of downtown.  And OY! at all of what Kinsman lost.  Hell, all of Euclid Avenue.

very good

 

 

 

To do an apples to apples comparison one should look at comparable areas: 

Cincinnati= the Basin compared to Cleveland = say, the neighborhoods between downtown and 50th Street, south to the Kingsbury Run valley (?).  These would be comparable areas: close-in mostly working class areas (with some exceptions).

 

It might be interesting to look at those online Sanborns, too, over at the OPLIN site, assuming they are still up.

 

@@@

 

Also continued expansion of the rail system through the basin on the east and west side doomed some of the neighborhoods as well.

 

Yeah, I've been looking at the track layouts in the aeriel and thinking of rereading Condit's book on Cincy railroad development.  What's interesting is the amount of street running going on.  It looks like they have a line down Eggleston, east side of the street, from that freight terminal (?) at Reading Road down to the riverfront.  And you can see some riverfront track elevation coming in from the east (perhaps similar to what Louisville had) but it ends and goes on the surface across public landing and then there's street running again west of, say, Main (west of public landing).

 

Also those elevated tracks coming in off the C&O Bridge look interesting, too (west side of the pic).

 

I wonder if it would be instructive to post the pic in the thread header side-by-side with that antebellum pano that was posted earlier?  You could see how the riverfront had more-or-less solid line of commercial buildings fronting directly on the river vs the ragged look of the 1920s.  It looks like theres one-story warehouse buildings where Vine meets the river in the 1920s pic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

well in total the pics are amazing and there are a lot of otr neighborhoods lost, but when you get down to it i am not seeing the sustained height across any one of these blocks. i see a lot of 2-3 or 4 story residential, which takes up a lot of space, and a ton of variation on each block.

 

The initial aerial posted doesn't really show most of Over-the-Rhine itself but much more of downtown and the immediate area west and east (which are now freeway interchanges).  Over-the-Rhine rarely has 2 story structures and is generally 3-5 stories.

 

i can only go by the photo posted and look at that. i'm sure there are plenty of other somewhat more closeup historic shots you are aware of.

 

so the hough LH neighborhood's built environment appears much denser in its utter uniformity.

 

Clearly not.  The uniformity of the first Hough photo consists of trees, A-frame housing with gangway space, and only a small section of dense apartment blocks in that left-central space.  There are some spaced apartment blocks on the central right but that can be found in modern-day Cleveland Heights.  The point is that that photo is not uniform by any eye, including Stevie Wonder.

 

whats clear is you are focusing on eastern hough area neighborhoods and minimizing those west, of which you can only see partially. and in the late 1960's.

 

The second Hough photo shows a birds-eye space of about three blocks of some tightly spaced 3-4 story apartment buildings and a view out of the cropped photo up top being your typical A-frame Midwestern housing space.  Again, not uniform by any stretch of the means, let alone  a large portion of Hough versus the West End/Queensgate photo posted.  For a Cincinnati equivalent today, I could take a much denser shot of Pendleton, hiding the future casino lot, and make it look like a 1930's Mumbai, Sepia-tone and all.

 

well yes this shot is some of the LH neighborhood -- and its not that small nor is it all-inclusive nor is it cropped, its a 1960's close-up of slated teardowns. but this is my point so be my guest to post photos of anything in cinci that are that equal to or more than tightly knit sustained blocks of 5 story apt buildings, because i havent seen them yet, even on the historic all-inclusive 1920's aerial you posted. block by block cinci is/was "uniformly" much more varied than LH so far as we have seen on this thread or any other i recall. or whats left today.

 

now how many people were actually packed in there in otr is a point well taken and is another story, but i cant imagine those cleveland neighborhood block apts were any different for their day.

 

Sure, perfectly logical.  But there aren't "blocks and blocks" of apartment buildings shown in those two Hough photos.  Just sections.

 

...you're minimizing again, those apts continue to some extent both to the right/left/foreground of the second photo, LH was a distinct neighborhood and more than the photos, you know that, but more to the point, you're looking at 1968...

 

again, it may be than more people were crowded somewhere into OTR or western cinci housing in its peak in the 1820's than in early 1900's LH, even with businesses on the ground floors, thats all another story, but you would not think so just by looking at all the variation in the cinci aerial.

 

 

and btw those couple cle pics were from the late 1960's after the mlk riots, so you can imagine a lot was already long gone by then.

 

I find it hard to believe those A-pitched wood-frame, spaced housing existed after the riots taking the place of a denser neighborhood.  They look like they date back to an earlier time period.  Sure, the parking lots would've been apartment buildings but either photo shows the neighborhood was clearly more wood-frame spaced if anything, let alone anything incomparable to the Queensgate/West End or Downtown/Basin aerials posted.

 

Basically, it's a lost cause.  Hough was dense but it wasn't Over-the-Rhine dense.  And that's fine because both neighborhoods lost a lot but OTR lost a bit more of something special.

 

you can keep focusing on the eastern half of hough and drag buffalo or any other cinci neighborhoods you like into the discussion, but the built environment does not appear to have the same residential density as this particular LH cle nabe does (which btw was brick and stone not wood). if you disagree show me the money!

 

whats clear is you are focusing on eastern hough area neighborhoods and minimizing those west, of which you can only see partially. and in the late 1960's.

 

As you said going by the photos posted, I don't see anything visually remotely as urban as the aerials posted.

 

well yes this shot is some of the LH neighborhood -- and its not that small nor is it all-inclusive nor is it cropped, its a 1960's close-up of slated teardowns. but this is my point so be my guest to post photos of anything in cinci that are that equal to or more than tightly knit sustained blocks of 5 story apt buildings, because i havent seen them yet, even on the historic all-inclusive 1920's aerial you posted. block by block cinci is/was "uniformly" much more varied than LH so far as we have seen on this thread or any other i recall. or whats left today.

 

We must be seeing different things because I'm not seeing any sort of uniform density in those LH photos.  At all.  Just little sections of apartment buildings.  If I wanted that, I'd go down the street and take a birds-eye view of some apartment buildings in Centerville! :D

 

...you're minimizing again, those apts continue to some extent both to the right/left/foreground of the second photo, LH was a distinct neighborhood and more than the photos, you know that, but more to the point, you're looking at 1968...

 

The point is that LH was not very large, especially compared to Over-the-Rhine.  Comparable to sections of Queensgate shown in the second aerial I posted.  Nothing to minimize there.

 

again, it may be than more people were crowded somewhere into OTR or western cinci housing in its peak in the 1820's than in early 1900's LH, even with businesses on the ground floors, thats all another story, but you would not think so just by looking at all the variation in the cinci aerial.

 

Again, I fail to see how the LH aerials don't show variation between wood-frame A housing and sections of Cleveland Heights-ish apartment blocks.

 

you can keep focusing on the eastern half of hough and drag buffalo or any other cinci neighborhoods you like into the discussion, but the built environment does not appear to have the same residential density as this particular LH cle nabe does (which btw was brick and stone not wood). if you disagree show me the money!

 

Again.

 

but either photo shows the neighborhood was clearly more wood-frame spaced if anything, let alone anything incomparable to the Queensgate/West End or Downtown/Basin aerials posted.

 

....

 

But there aren't "blocks and blocks" of apartment buildings shown in those two Hough photos.  Just sections.

 

Again, ball is in your court because I'm not seeing any sort of justification.

well you can cherry pick that exchange all you want to add to your myopic rhetoric or....you can show me the money!!!

What I'm telling you is that you haven't shown any "money" yet for me to showout like the Apollo. And I think posting two largely dense aerials (certainly denser than the LH ones posted) is enough money for all of UrbanOhio, including Frank Jackson himself.

I don't see why you keep arguing this MrNYC.  Colday has posted two pictures showing extreme density in the Cincinnati basin, while you have shown two pics of a couple of blocks of apartment buildings, surrounded mostly by scattered apartment buildings and single family homes.  How can you say that your pictures demonstrate anything CLOSE to the density displayed throughout the whole basin?  If anyone needs to "show the money" it's you!

 

You're not going to find a pic of OTR or the West End that shows uniform 5 story buildings, because that's just not how the neighborhood was built.  There are a range of 3-5 story buildings, spread over a large area.  You could probably find a more comparable picture to LH in early pictures of Avondale, Walnut Hills, or Clifton.

 

I don't see why you keep arguing this MrNYC.  Colday has posted two pictures showing extreme density in the Cincinnati basin, while you have shown two pics of a couple of blocks of apartment buildings, surrounded mostly by scattered apartment buildings and single family homes...

 

I think the usage of "single family homes" is a misnomer here. The great majority of Cleveland homes were/are Cleveland doubles or triples. Even some of the smaller frame houses scattered around had 2 or 3 families living in them. This  was extremely common in the immigrant families in Slavic Village/Broadway. It was commonplace 75-100 years ago.

Also scattered around the city, but really evident in Little Italy, Slavic Village and some of the near-west neighborhoods is a second home on the property, usually  behind the main house. This was for either older family members or younger ones who were newlyweds, etc. That was done when zoning laws alllowed for that...something else from yesteryear.

I think the aerials with the A-frame rooftops are misleading people to think those are single family. Only a small amount are.

 

For all the loss, it's worth remembering how unsanitary much of this current view was. There were probably few indoor commodes during this time, and the streets (and river, esp) were likely pretty filthy. Same for the air. I don't necessarily mourn the loss of individual buildings, but rather intimate fabric that was gutted for automobiles and later interstates.

 

Good Points. In the 1870's, sensationalist newspaper writer Lafcadio Hearn wrote stomach-turning accounts about the virulent, crime-infested slums located near the riverfront that were derisively called Bucktown, Rats Row, and Sausage Row. It was a ramshackle district of flop-houses, cheap hotels, brothels, opium dens, gambling establishments, and constant violence. This was where those residents of Cincinnati on the fringes of society lived in the 19th century. Few locals mourned the loss of these derelict slums when they were cleared out in the first decades of the 20th century. Many of these former riverfront slum residents immediately fled to the poorer areas of the West End which, in turn, quickly acquired a similar negative reputation with increasing calls for eradication of the "blight" by local business leaders who feared the growing impoverished population was encroaching on the downtown. Predictably, much of the West End and former neighborhoods like Kenyon-Barr were wholesale bulldozed for the Queensgate development, new public housing projects, and Union Station. (still later, the I-75 Freeway construction) These displaced poor folks had to relocate yet again to other neighborhoods and this cycle of displacement has been repeated and is seemingly never-ending. The best urban policy solution is obviously one that addresses the social issues stemming from generational cycles of chronic poverty, not trying to bulldoze the problem away.

 

Talk about hitting the nail on the head! Bravo good sir.

 

I will add that the City West project has been successful in making it clear that historically-inspired renewal is the only way for Cincinnati going forward in the West End.  I would like to see Liberty and Ezzard transformed and the street grid reconnected, naturally making way for more prominent development and commerce.

 

I don't see why you keep arguing this MrNYC. Colday has posted two pictures showing extreme density in the Cincinnati basin, while you have shown two pics of a couple of blocks of apartment buildings, surrounded mostly by scattered apartment buildings and single family homes...

 

I think the usage of "single family homes" is a misnomer here. The great majority of Cleveland homes were/are Cleveland doubles or triples. Even some of the smaller frame houses scattered around had 2 or 3 families living in them. This was extremely common in the immigrant families in Slavic Village/Broadway. It was commonplace 75-100 years ago.

Also scattered around the city, but really evident in Little Italy, Slavic Village and some of the near-west neighborhoods is a second home on the property, usually behind the main house. This was for either older family members or younger ones who were newlyweds, etc. That was done when zoning laws alllowed for that...something else from yesteryear.

I think the aerials with the A-frame rooftops are misleading people to think those are single family. Only a small amount are.

 

 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I use the term "single family home" to describe detached, stand alone homes too often.  No doubt the population densities in Cleveland were astronomical at one point, meaning these homes would need to be multi family.

My grandpa was telling me how his parents lived in a 3 family home. I believe in the Collinwood neighborhood.

Most Cincinnati city neighborhoods have a mix of singles, doubles, fours and some sixes and eights. And there were/are large pre-WWI apartment buildings scattered throughout the uptown areas as well. Yes, Cleveland was very dense once, but Cincinnati managed to squeeze nearly 600k peak into area w/ far less accessible space than any cities save a Pittsburgh or San Francisco. And that peak number was reached when many of those buildings in that picture were gone or soon to be so.

what is it with a few of these cleveland forumers and their vain attempts to diminish Cincinnati? 

what is it with a few of these cleveland forumers and their vain attempts to diminish Cincinnati? 

 

I wouldnt go that far. Both cities in the end for some reason seem to like to talk sh!t on each other.

 

And I dont get the point of arguing this. It was a nice picture ruined by 2 pages of dumb@$s arguements

what is it with a few of these cleveland forumers and their vain attempts to diminish Cincinnati?

 

I wouldnt go that far. Both cities in the end for some reason seem to like to talk sh!t on each other.

 

And I dont get the point of arguing this. It was a nice picture ruined by 2 pages of dumb@$s arguements

 

Agreed.  The photo still kicks ass! :D

Cleveland and Cincinnati, keeping landfills in business for more than 60 years...

Discussion about City West has been moved to the City West thread:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1743.msg536165.html#msg536165

 

Jaw dropping amazement!  Damn you Chris for not sending me an email to let me know you found this photo.  I have been too busy lately to check the forums.  I have been analyzing this photo for an hour.  I am amazed that such a photo exists.

Wasn't the Sinton Hotel across from PNC Tower?  I consider this hotel one of Cincinnati's biggest architectural losses.

 

http://www.cincinnatimemory.org/cgi-bin/library?a=q&r=1&hs=1&h=dd1&t=0&c=greaterc&q=Sinton%20Hotel%20(Cincinnati,%20Ohio)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/us/22panorama.html

29 photographs provide a breathtaking glimpse into the Queen City’s past.

 

http://www.blogotr.com/otr/beautiful-historic-photos-of-cincinnati/

 

A teaser:

Those are awesome, I believe some/most of them are Paul Briol (sp?) photographs.

^ After a quick google search I found this collection of Paul Briol photographs. Many of them are from the collection posted on the Museum's website above, but many others are not. Perhaps they are more photos that didn't make the online portfolio or they could be another photographer altogether. Great find though. How did you know it was Paul Briol?

Amazing.

Wow. Those pictures are amazing. Thanks for sharing!

 

On another note, I have been trying to find pre-1960 pictures of Mohawk Street for quite some time. Does anyone know where I might be able to find some?

On another note, I have been trying to find pre-1960 pictures of Mohawk Street for quite some time. Does anyone know where I might be able to find some?

 

Try http://www.cincinnatimemory.org/

I updated the post to reflect the fact that Paul Briol was the photographer. Someone left a comment on the post that tipped me off.

 

Here's a view of Mohawk Pl from cincinnatimemory:

 

 

 

This thread is for all historic photos of Cincinnati

good use of your time machine

 

What's the place with the snowy gate?

While mostly focused on NoKY, the Kenton County Library has a great repository of historic photos.

Thanks for the help guys. The house I've been looking for is 260 Mohawk, which was torn down in the 60s I believe. That's where several of my family members grew up. I have been to the museum center to look at their photos, but couldn't to find any. I will keep looking!

There was a link someone posted on a few years ago saying that 1,000s of new photos of individual homes/buildings in Cincinnati had been digitized and put online.  I remember going online and searching through them and they were unbelievable, does anyone remember the website?  I thought is was Cincinnatimemory.org as I mentioned above, but I don't think that was it.

There was a link someone posted on a few years ago saying that 1,000s of new photos of individual homes/buildings in Cincinnati had been digitized and put online.

 

MUST FIND THIS SITE

 

Thanks for the help guys. The house I've been looking for is 260 Mohawk, which was torn down in the 60s I believe. That's where several of my family members grew up. I have been to the museum center to look at their photos, but couldn't to find any. I will keep looking!

 

Did you try the Daniel Ransohoff collection?

There was a link someone posted on a few years ago saying that 1,000s of new photos of individual homes/buildings in Cincinnati had been digitized and put online.  I remember going online and searching through them and they were unbelievable, does anyone remember the website?  I thought is was Cincinnatimemory.org as I mentioned above, but I don't think that was it.

real estate agents have been taking pictures of houses for years & sharing them through MLSs. If someone ever collected & scanned the things - yow.

wow those pics -

 

the real question is, is there some other uo historic cinci thread? why has making one taken until now???

 

moar moar!

 

The view up Vine taken (presumably) from the Carew makes my mouth water.  Same with the one "looking up at Mt. Adams" from what I guess would have been Bucktown.  Unbelievable what we have demolished.

cincinnati_kid, the website is the Cincinnati History Library and Archives. From there access the Photographs section.Then access any of their collections of photos,all of which are excellent. I believe a while back someone made mention of the Kenyon Barr photo collection,probably that is what you are referring to?I have heard that the gentleman who took all of those photos took thousands of them.I don't know how many,but this website has over 800 catalogued. By the way,OTR ,thanks for posting these,I've never seen some of them,I especially like the ones of Sycamore hill with a tantalyzing glimpse of the steps to some of the homes on the East side of the street,and the peek down to Liberty Street before the widening of that thoroughfare.

Yes cincity that is what I remembered, specifically the Kenyon Barr stuff, thanks!

 

Did you try the Daniel Ransohoff collection?

 

No, I don't think I looked through that one. They had files by street, but there weren't any Mohawk pics. Is the Ransohoff collection online or at the museum center?

They can only be seen at the Museum Center library. There are several thousand prints in the collection and they are categorized in broad subject areas like adults, children, housing, etc and some by Social Service agency.  Also, all of the thousands of negatives have been microfilmed and put on microfiche and can be viewed that way. Virtually the whole collection can be viewed in the library.  Its hours are 12-5 Mon-Fri and 10-5 on Sat.

They can only be seen at the Museum Center library. There are several thousand prints in the collection and they are categorized in broad subject areas like adults, children, housing, etc and some by Social Service agency.  Also, all of the thousands of negatives have been microfilmed and put on microfiche and can be viewed that way. Virtually the whole collection can be viewed in the library.  Its hours are 12-5 Mon-Fri and 10-5 on Sat.

 

Awesome. I'll have to check it out next time I'm in town. Thanks for the info!

 

 

On another note, what is that large building to the left and behind of Philippus in that first pic?

The old UC medical college building. I've heard the med students would make the cadavers wave to people going up the incline...

I've also heard rumors that they would toss bodies out the window onto the incline as a joke to scare passengers. I'm not sure if this is true, but it is a rumor nonetheless.

read all about the Bellevue Incline here:

 

http://www.blogotr.com/otr/the-bellevue-incline-and-elm-street-steps/

 

"From 1875 to 1895 this building was McMicken Hall, University of Cincinnati’s Academic Department. From 1896 to 1917 it became the University’s first medical college, and from 1920 to 1925 it became the Law School. This building can be seen in these cards next to the incline. Commuters often complained about the medical students habit of waving dismembered arms & legs out the windows at the female passengers as the trolleys passed. Next to the school was the Schoenling Brewery where the freezer was used for both cadavers and beer."