2 hours ago, thebillshark said:

Current Plan:

 

 

Plan I created this morning that would be significantly cheaper (using a single deck bridge vs. double deck), minimize demolition including the electric substation, make the interstate interchange usable for the West End as well as the West Side, and free up over 10 acres of urban core land along Central Parkway for development:

 

 

The Winchell on-ramp collects traffic from Bank, Findlay, and Liberty.  I think that they'd want that access maintained, although honestly, it doesn't appear to get anywhere close to the use that the wideness of Winchell insinuates. 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The Winchell on-ramp collects traffic from Bank, Findlay, and Liberty.  I think that they'd want that access maintained, although honestly, it doesn't appear to get anywhere close to the use that the wideness of Winchell insinuates. 

 

 

 

 

True, I used it all the time when I lived in OTR. But in my plan Winchell still exists but the on-ramp is simply moved one block north. I think that’s a good compromise in exchange for having a full highway interchange accessible for the West End there. 

^Oh, I see that now. 

 

I'd like to see the traffic count for cars that travel across the viaduct and then up the McMillan St. hill.  It might be an amazingly low number.  I know that during off-peak hours it's a pretty sleepy intersection. 

34 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Oh, I see that now. 

 

I'd like to see the traffic count for cars that travel across the viaduct and then up the McMillan St. hill.  It might be an amazingly low number.  I know that during off-peak hours it's a pretty sleepy intersection. 

 

Right! How many millions are we spending on this design just to keep that part of the project. Could we avoid moving the substation (maybe ~$10 million) or avoid building a double decker Viaduct (maybe ~$100 million?) And how much would it actually slow a few people down to make a few turns to proceed on to McMillan? 1 or 2 minutes? It’s a cost that if it was actually transferred onto the drivers benefitting they could never pay it. Would “Uptown stakeholders” throw a fit?

I saw a quote that not moving the substation would save 35million (which seems crazy) so they were going to wiggle more to the north to avoid it. Just what you need in your bridge, a 'wiggle'.

 

I thought after all the streetcar drama that it's on the utilities to move for road projects, but not rail projects.  Didn't Duke have to eat the cost of moving their substation next to Brent Spence? 

^ That probably only applies to utilities that are under the streets, not things like substations on privately owned land.

8 minutes ago, taestell said:

^ That probably only applies to utilities that are under the streets, not things like substations on privately owned land.

Recall that the appeals court ruling was that since the City built the streetcar for economic development purposes and not with regards to health, safety and welfare, the city had to pay. Looking at it again, it's appalling how ridiculous this ruling was.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/05/04/ohio-supreme-court-makes-ruling-on-duke.html

 

"At the appellate court level, the three justices unanimously affirmed then-Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Carl Stitch’s ruling. It said that the city’s construction of the streetcar “did not bear a substantial relation to the public’s health, safety, morals or general welfare” and instead was a proprietary function."

Not directly news on the viaduct itself but is in the general area

 

 

Work begins to try to replace "structurally deficient" Cincinnati bridge

https://local12.com/news/local/work-begins-to-try-to-replace-structurally-deficient-cincinnati-bridge

You’ve probably never heard of them. But they could decide the fate of the Western Hills Viaduct or your local intersection.

 

The key passage here:

 

Quote

“The obvious reason is that (Metro) knows nothing about how to rank and rate road and bridge projects in terms of need and improvement,” Seitz said. “The integrating committee, on the other hand, has a 30-year-plus history of doing just that.”

 

Seitz won’t tell anyone how to vote in March, when Metro’s tax is likely to be on the ballot. But “I’m going to be upfront and say, ‘Hey, folks, if you really want your infrastructure to be upgraded, this is a perfect opportunity to put your money where your mouth is,’” he said. “Everyone wants to say, ‘When are they going to fix the Western Hills Viaduct?’ And the answer is, when we get the money to do it.”

 

How much does the city have and how much did it just ask for on Western Hills Viaduct project?

 

Cincinnati City Council voted unanimously Wednesday to apply for $150 million in federal money to replace the Western Hills Viaduct, a $335 million project.

 

So far, the city and Hamilton County have gathered about $100 million in funds for the project in state, federal and local funds.

 

The viaduct replacement’s construction costs are expected to be $284 million, with a total project cost of $335 million. Both the city and the county have said that it is their top transportation priority.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/03/05/how-much-does-the-city-have-and-how-much-did-it.html

 

I wonder how much it would cost to relocate the rail yards instead, and just get rid of this whole viaduct nonsense altogether.  They were built here for historical reasons, and then expanded when urban industrial areas were collapsing, but there's not really any need for it to be so close to downtown.  Sharonville had a much larger yard in the past, and getting a couple of warehouse buildings out of the way would provide a similar amount of space out there.  Of course, redeveloping the freed up space into more low-density industrial like the rest of Queensgate wouldn't be of any benefit, and I don't see city leaders coming up with anything more creative than that, so oh well. 

Wouldn't you still need a viaduct to get across the valley due to the topography? Are you suggesting that if the rail yard were moved, the new viaduct would be cheaper because you could build a structure with more supports rather than a long cable-stayed span?

No I'm saying without the rail yards it could just be a surface street, kind of like Gest, or Hopple between Spring Grove and I-75.  The whole point of the viaducts was to cross the many railroads and yards, not so much for topography.  There'd still be a bridge over Mill Creek, and a couple of railroad overpasses, but nothing like what's there now.  I know it's a complete pipe dream. 

I see. I had a hard time envisioning that because it's so different than the current situation.

On google earth you will occasionally see a very large rail yard out in the middle of nowhere.  I don't know where one could go anywhere near Cincinnati that would serve the same purpose as Queensgate.  If General Electric ever closes down, that location would be ideal since it sits at the junction of several lines near the existing Sharonville yard.  Another possibility...Tri-County Mall.  Another possibility...Butler County Airport, but they'd have to build a new airport somewhere else in the county. 

2 Trillion in infrastructure spending.   What are the chances this could help get this going sooner than later?

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/treasury-secretary-mnuchin-says-hes-having-ongoing-discussions-about-an-infrastructure-bill.html

It depends on whether the money will be limited to state and federal highways, or if cities/counties will be able to apply for funding for local projects.

Western Hills Viaduct gets more money; here’s where the project stands

 

Three years after they started applying for and receiving state and federal funds for the key connection between the West Side and the rest of the region, Cincinnati and Hamilton County have received another major grant for the Western Hills Viaduct project.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/04/14/western-hills-viaduct-gets-more-money-here-s-where.html

Hamilton County reveals potential design for $335M bridge project

 

 

Hamilton County officials have revealed the type of bridge likely to be built to replace the Western Hills Viaduct.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/10/13/western-hills-viaduct-design.html

Wow this thing is going to be ugly.  Plus, the western in western hills insinuates westward expansion so they'll need to rename it after something Twitter will approve of. 

City floats earlier start date for new Western Hills Viaduct

 

The city of Cincinnati said construction of the new Western Hills Viaduct could begin earlier than previously stated.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/10/23/city-floats-earlier-start-date-for-new-western-hil.html

 

Interesting realignment they've come up with. I'm kind of surprised that there are no connections to Spring Grove in that layout, although I'm not sure how necessary that connection is/was. Does it really need to be 8 lanes wide though?

I question how they're going to build this thing independent of I-75 being rebuilt at the same time.  I mean, something's got to give.  And of course the sky won't fall when Western Hills is cut off from I-75 at this point during construction since there is tons of redundancy in the west side's road network.  

 

I mean, we were told 20 years ago that Hopple St. *had* to be widened.  It was.  They tore down the original Camp Washington Chili and took out the old reversible lanes.  The only thing that has happened to the neighborhoods along Westwood-Northern Blvd since that project is decline.  

 

 

There have been so many "carmageddon" and "viadoom" predictions over the past 10 years that never came true, hopefully civic leaders stop falling for these scare tactics.

 

Was anything new said at the meeting?

2 hours ago, LAW 21 said:

Was anything new said at the meeting?

No not really. The confusing thing is that the site plan does not include the 75 interchange or the Lick Run project. It just goes over 75 to an improved intersection with Central without mentioning how it will tie into 75 at all.

The meeting was 90 minutes long. The presentation itself was only about a half hour. YouTube link.
DOTE's project page has been updated as well with the presentation. It includes a feedback form. Link.

This is essentially what the span of the bridge will look/feel like. They specifically mentioned the 11' and 12' travel lanes, as well as the 8' sidewalk and 14' mixed-use path widths. There was a mention of a 4' emergency lane so I guess on that part based off the renderings. 130' wide, 42k people per hour.


 

And this is my dream scenario. 130' wide, 94k people per hour. It might still need 4 interstate lanes to prevent collisions at merge points and freeway back ups during peak hours.

New Western Hills Viaduct renderings unveiled; project described as 'iconic new landmark'

 

The city of Cincinnati and Hamilton County unveiled new renderings of the Western Hills Viaduct that show a wide, separated sidewalk for pedestrians and bicyclists, a major improvement over the current structure.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/12/04/city-unveils-new-western-hills-viaduct-renderings.html

 

“Iconic”... LOL it’s about as iconic as the cable stayed bridge over the Wolf Creek in West Dayton, and at least that one has crazy LED light shows. 

Estimation of a 2028 completion... [emoji2357]

How likely is it that the bikeway on the south side somehow gets narrowed or eliminated to save money?

 

Why does the bridge have 8 lanes?  overkill 

I don't know about everyone else, but I really like the look of the current WHV. This thing is just a monstrosity. 

The only silver lining with this design is that (allegedly) the bridge is going to be built to hold future rail, and maybe we can get the middle 2 lanes replaced with rail sometime in the next 50 years.

22 minutes ago, Jimmy Skinner said:

How likely is it that the bikeway on the south side somehow gets narrowed or eliminated to save money?

 

Why does the bridge have 8 lanes?  overkill 

 

It's ugly.  Most cable stayed bridges are fat and ugly like this one, not narrow like the handful that are upheld as the model for cable stayed bridges.

 

This thing is top-down.  It wasn't designed by people from here.  

I initially thought is was too much too until I realized the key idea is to separate the I-75 traffic from the Central Parkway to Fairmount local traffic.

 

This is critical for transit, bus or potential future rail, because it eliminates traffic lights for an I-75 exit for vehicles traveling from Central Parkway to Fairmount and reduces traffic friction for these vehicles. Meanwhile having two lanes in each direction for this local traffic means one of them could be dedicated to transit someday. 
 

It’s also critical to pedestrians because the path doesn’t go though some I-75 exit configuration that would be unpleasant/dangerous to walk through. 
 

so i think it’s a good design.

 

i would like to see a wide mix used path on both the south and north sides of the viaduct and plan on reaching out to them with that comment. 

 

Edited December 8, 20204 yr by thebillshark

2 hours ago, 10albersa said:

I don't know about everyone else, but I really like the look of the current WHV. This thing is just a monstrosity. 

The only silver lining with this design is that (allegedly) the bridge is going to be built to hold future rail, and maybe we can get the middle 2 lanes replaced with rail sometime in the next 50 years.

 

For some reason the library link to access Bizjournals doesnt work for me anymore, does it say that in the article? Or is that just something thats been talked about?

The Business Courier article doesn't say anything about light rail. I assume the bridge will be built with a "sacrificial slab" that can be replaced in the future if we decided to add rail, similar to how the Main and Walnut bridges over FWW were built.

 

1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

Meanwhile having two lanes in each direction for this local traffic means one of them could be dedicated to transit someday. 

 

I'm getting pretty tired of Cincinnati always placing transit last in line. If transit is a priority, we should build bus lanes now, not make vague promises about adding them later. We now have a dedicated funding source for transit infrastructure. If bus lanes make sense on the WHV, we should add them when it is built.

2 hours ago, 10albersa said:

I don't know about everyone else, but I really like the look of the current WHV.

 

A definite vestige of Old, Interesting America rather than dull, homogenized hipster-lite America post-2000.

20 minutes ago, taestell said:

The Business Courier article doesn't say anything about light rail. I assume the bridge will be built with a "sacrificial slab" that can be replaced in the future if we decided to add rail, similar to how the Main and Walnut bridges over FWW were built.

During the presentation, the lead designer specifically stated that the bridge would be able to carry the weight of future rail. That was the only accommodation specifically mentioned. Asking for sacrificial slabs should probably be added to feedback forms though.

  

20 minutes ago, taestell said:

I'm getting pretty tired of Cincinnati always placing transit last in line. If transit is a priority, we should build bus lanes now, not make vague promises about adding them later. We now have a dedicated funding source for transit infrastructure. If bus lanes make sense on the WHV, we should add them when it is built.

 

Would bus lanes make sense along WHV, because it would be easier to create jump lanes at the new intersections at either end of the bridge?

 

On 12/5/2020 at 8:59 AM, BigDipper 80 said:

“Iconic”... LOL it’s about as iconic as the cable stayed bridge over the Wolf Creek in West Dayton, and at least that one has crazy LED light shows. 

 

I don't think you can even compare the two. The scale of this thing is orders of magnitude larger. 

 

Also, I imagine it'll have some crazy lighting. It seems to be a common feature of all new cable stayed bridges nowadays. 

1 hour ago, seaswan said:

 

For some reason the library link to access Bizjournals doesnt work for me anymore, does it say that in the article? Or is that just something thats been talked about?

Try this for Library login: https://login.research.cincinnatilibrary.org/login?qurl=https://www.bizjournals.com%2fcincinnati%2fportal%2fcincinnatihamiltoncountypubliclibraryci

2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

A definite vestige of Old, Interesting America rather than dull, homogenized hipster-lite America post-2000.

Yeah, and it ties in well with the art deco look of Union Terminal too.

3 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

A definite vestige of Old, Interesting America rather than dull, homogenized hipster-lite America post-2000.

 

I sometimes think that about pre-stressed concrete beams but these newer types of bridge designs - cable-stayed, inclined cable-stayed, suspended arch, simplified Warren truss designs, etc. - all represent the latest iterations that are stronger and cheaper than what has been available in the past. We no longer build in any significant number massive cantilever trusses because of their complexity, cost, and fracture-critical components, nor do we build deck trusses without redundancies because of their fracture-critical components. Nor do we build eye-bar suspensions or to a large extent, wire suspensions, because of their inherent design flaws or costs.

 

I'm sure that the next big step in bridge design will be material advancements, so instead of using steel or massive amounts of concrete, it will be carbon fiber or other synthetic materials. And maybe when the WHV gets replaced in 100 years again, perhaps it'll have a newer iteration of a bridge design.

Western Hills Viaduct funding: City, county seek to complete $335M package

 

Cincinnati and Hamilton County have requested two new pots of funding from the state and federal governments for the bridge that will replace the Western Hills Viaduct.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/04/07/western-hills-viaduct-funding-city-county-seek-to.html

 

Western Hills Viaduct was not listed among the first round of recipients of INFRA grants, though DOTE applied for them. From the outside looking in, this result doesn't seem overly surprising given that pedestrian/bike or transit aren't prioritized in the design. However, it's not like the chosen projects seem to meet the purported focus on climate change/equity - the 465 project near Indy is a sprawlly capacity project with expansion, though Columbus got more money for their 70/71 split and downtown ramp changes. 

 

A draft list of projects funded through the TRAC fund listed above in the Biz Courier article is due July 21. 

 

WHV was also listed among priorities to be scored for the new issue 7 funds, for which the deadline was yesterday. Projects along with the WHV included projects along River, Beekman, Paxton, Warsaw, Glenway, Edwards, 8th St, W. North Bend, Madison, Whetsel, and Art Museum Dr. This is the first go-round of those, so we'll see how Cincinnati fares relative to other jurisdictions in the county. I took a cursory glance at the criteria and would think it would fare pretty well, but I'd be less confident about some of the others. Only the Warsaw and 8th St projects seem to reference bus/bike or pedestrian improvements. 

On 7/1/2021 at 8:40 PM, shawk said:

WHV was also listed among priorities to be scored for the new issue 7 funds, for which the deadline was yesterday. Projects along with the WHV included projects along River, Beekman, Paxton, Warsaw, Glenway, Edwards, 8th St, W. North Bend, Madison, Whetsel, and Art Museum Dr. This is the first go-round of those, so we'll see how Cincinnati fares relative to other jurisdictions in the county. I took a cursory glance at the criteria and would think it would fare pretty well, but I'd be less confident about some of the others. Only the Warsaw and 8th St projects seem to reference bus/bike or pedestrian improvements. 

Whetsel carries the Madison Road version of the 11, which is a high priority route for SORTA, though it's just for resurfacing.

It does look like they have a good variety of projects so maybe they're trying to get some feedback for future years.

 

Quote

The infrastructure committee also approved the plan for 30 other projects throughout Hamilton County, including new roads and sidewalks that would be done over the next two years. 

It's not readily clear how ~$30 million a year can pay for all these things.

It's probably using a percentage of the sales tax revenue to provide the local match to get federal/state grants. I don't know what grants are readily available, but I'm sure this project would perform well against others in a competitive grant process.