I hope they can get it!

Does anyone think they can actually get $36/sf? That would be fantastic, but if they dont have any big names in there who would be willing to pay that price (clinic/uh) etc., who do they think will pay that? I would love to see it happen though.

Makes sense to start high, otherwise you have nowhere to go.  But 1/3 above market is really high.  Probably a trial balloon. 

I don't know enough about the technology aspect here, but I assume the mega high speed digital connectivity is the hook for at least some of the rent premium.

Does anyone think they can actually get $36/sf? That would be fantastic, but if they dont have any big names in there who would be willing to pay that price (clinic/uh) etc., who do they think will pay that? I would love to see it happen though.

 

Why do you think only clinic employees can afford that?

 

Look at the product, not the market, the product!  If that is the price point they can get, it means that others (landlord, rental company's) have to step up their game.

I believe the 36/sf is for office tenants, not residential. There is a very high demand for office space in UC, so they can probably charge a premium, how much of one is another question.

Does anyone think they can actually get $36/sf? That would be fantastic, but if they dont have any big names in there who would be willing to pay that price (clinic/uh) etc., who do they think will pay that? I would love to see it happen though.

 

Why do you think only clinic employees can afford that?

 

Look at the product, not the market, the product!  If that is the price point they can get, it means that others (landlord, rental company's) have to step up their game.

 

I'm about positive that the 36/sf quoted is office. At least that is how i've interpreted it. And as office space is very tight in UC I doubt any incubators or smaller businesses would be able to pay that price. that is why I was suspecting some bigger players.

^You are correct- there was no ambiguity in the article.  And I'd guess most of us think your question is totally reasonable, so don't worry too much about MTS's weird response.

^You are correct- there was no ambiguity in the article.  And I'd guess most of us think your question is totally reasonable, so don't worry too much about MTS's weird response.

 

You're right.  I read nosan_brad post wrong.  I was thinking, "residential" not "commercial"!  nosan_brad my apologies!

Does anyone think they can actually get $36/sf? That would be fantastic, but if they dont have any big names in there who would be willing to pay that price (clinic/uh) etc., who do they think will pay that? I would love to see it happen though.

 

Hm, well it looks like the geniuses at the VA are paying $48 per sf for office space as part of their expansion (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/10/post_52.html), so maybe there's a similarly mismanaged institution nearby that will jump at $36.

Does anyone think they can actually get $36/sf? That would be fantastic, but if they dont have any big names in there who would be willing to pay that price (clinic/uh) etc., who do they think will pay that? I would love to see it happen though.

 

Hm, well it looks like the geniuses at the VA are paying $48 per sf for office space as part of their expansion (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/10/post_52.html), so maybe there's a similarly mismanaged institution nearby that will jump at $36.

 

Though hopefully not one that's tax payer funded. Those organizations are the ones typically making such ridiculous decisions.

Tiny-apartment trend trickles down to Cleveland, as developers plan University Circle project

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Consider 300 square feet.

 

It's a single-car garage or a few office cubicles. It could fit eight times into the average new American dwelling. And it's what more people in cities including Cleveland could call home, as developers explore building tiny, efficient apartments in bustling urban neighborhoods.

 

Often called micro-apartments, these small living spaces are popping up in high-rent hotspots like Boston and New York. In San Francisco, the Board of Supervisors just approved building code changes that lowered the minimum allowable size of an apartment to 220 square feet. Now a Cleveland development team hopes to build 80 small apartments in University Circle, where schools and hospitals attract young people for several-year stints....

 

Coral and Panzica Construction Co. are considering a stack of 300-square-foot studios, 450-square-foot one-bedroom apartments and 600-square-foot two-bedroom units as part of their Intesa project on Mayfield Road. The $100 million planned development, announced in March, would replace a surface parking lot at the edge of Little Italy with offices, housing, parking, retail and a hub for tech companies."

 

http://mobile.cleveland.com/advcleve/db_268982/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=o8G5LYoH

This is good-I've been saying this for a while (and have gotten shot down here by some on UO). Smaller apartments mean more units/people per building, supporting density that can support 24/7 delis, restaurants, etc. plus more retail like dry cleaners, groceries, etc.

But the biggest reason that smaller apartments are being sought is to get around this city's biggest problem -- low rents. By squeezing more people into a building, you get more rental income from them thus attracting financing that otherwise wouldn't come to a region with such low rents. A developer friend of mine with interests in University Circle was explaining this to me. Makes a lot of sense.

 

And, since young people like to spend more time surfing the web at a coffee shop or enjoying a more active lifestyle or working long hours, they don't spend as much time at home. So they don't need a big apartment to come home to each evening.

I wonder how this affects the theory that people move from the coast to places like Cleveland because their dollars stretch further and buys them more space as opposed to places like NYC?

It won't, because the price per sq foot difference will still be there.  You don't want to know what you have to pay for one of those tiny apartments in SF or NYC

It says the min. divisible is 1 sq ft.  I may have to call them on that.

I guess they were serious about the 1 sq ft afterall.  :drunk:

 

Tiny-apartment trend trickles down to Cleveland, as developers plan University Circle project

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Consider 300 square feet.

http://mobile.cleveland.com/advcleve/db_268982/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=o8G5LYoH

 

I hope it's a failure but I suspect it won't be. College kids and their money are easily parted. Prices are trending up sharply per square foot in this area. That will encourage new construction but I question its sustainability. We all saw what happened when housing prices rose faster than income--they moved to apartments.

 

This is all pretty early though. The city could use a few years of unbridled construction.

$750/month

 

I hope it's a failure but I suspect it won't be.

 

Why? Are you a fan of unsustainable and unsightly suburban sprawl? The more people in a given area, the more it can support conveniences of life (shops, restaurants, laundromats) and frequent mass transit service. I don't even know why this is even a story. Millions of people (take NYC and Tokyo for example) live in spaces that are smaller than your typical CLE apartment and its completely acceptable. Are we saying its okay for THOSE people, but not us in CLE? Higher density is what this city sorely needs. In fact, the city of Cleveland is not even the most dense city in the state, as one would expect it to be---its the suburb of Lakewood.

Why? Are you a fan of unsustainable and unsightly suburban sprawl?

 

This is about a 200 sq ft walk-in closet, not a suburban housing development. There is a middle ground. Places that small aren't about urban development. It's about making the numbers work on an expensive piece of land. Hell, I don't know what they paid for it. It could be just a money grab.

$750/month

 

 

That's crazy. My 900-square-foot condo in Lakewood costs me $800 per month in mortgage payments, association fees, real estate taxes and insurance. Plus I have access to an indoor pool, my own storage lockers, laundry room, party room and one parking space in an underground heated garage! I think we need to send some buses to New York, bring them here and show them some neighborhoods, tour some buildings and then tell them how much it costs to live here. Maybe Intesa or others could offer these tours!

 

At least Intesa should offer an apartment model in a nearby building. I suspect they'd get lots of interest.

 

Mendo, it's only a dumb idea if Intesa doesn't fill up enough of its buildings to make money. Let's see what happens.

Why? Are you a fan of unsustainable and unsightly suburban sprawl?

 

This is about a 200 sq ft walk-in closet, not a suburban housing development. There is a middle ground. Places that small aren't about urban development. It's about making the numbers work on an expensive piece of land. Hell, I don't know what they paid for it. It could be just a money grab.

 

If it fits someone's needs, why complain about it?  You don't have to live there.  Nobody is trying to force you.

If it fits someone's needs, why complain about it?  You don't have to live there.  Nobody is trying to force you.

Are we only allowed to complain about anti-urban projects?

 

These projects affect the rental market for everybody in the surrounding community. I don't begrudge anybody for making a buck. If the project works, more power to them. It will only encourage more development in the area. My worry is that prices are creeping up faster than average income. I wonder how sustainable that is. We've seen the affects of that in the housing market. It clearly wasn't sustainable.

 

Tiny-apartment trend trickles down to Cleveland, as developers plan University Circle project

 

Coral and Panzica Construction Co. are considering a stack of 300-square-foot studios, 450-square-foot one-bedroom apartments and 600-square-foot two-bedroom units as part of their Intesa project on Mayfield Road. The $100 million planned development, announced in March, would replace a surface parking lot at the edge of Little Italy with offices, housing, parking, retail and a hub for tech companies."

 

http://mobile.cleveland.com/advcleve/db_268982/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=o8G5LYoH

 

Clock is ticking on this project.  Less than 4 months now for Coral & Panzica to pull this together or it goes back out for bid as I understand it

more along the lines of what intesa would have

 

If it fits someone's needs, why complain about it?  You don't have to live there.  Nobody is trying to force you.

Are we only allowed to complain about anti-urban projects?

 

 

Well... This IS URBAN Ohio... What do you think would be acceptable here...?

If it fits someone's needs, why complain about it?  You don't have to live there.  Nobody is trying to force you.

Are we only allowed to complain about anti-urban projects?

 

These projects affect the rental market for everybody in the surrounding community. I don't begrudge anybody for making a buck. If the project works, more power to them. It will only encourage more development in the area. My worry is that prices are creeping up faster than average income. I wonder how sustainable that is. We've seen the affects of that in the housing market. It clearly wasn't sustainable.

 

 

I agree with X. Although at this stage in life I could never live in a closet apartment this size.  I disagree that this project will make rental rates creep up faster as any new construction is going to have an affect on the immediate area.  People that live in studios generally spend more money and time in their neighborhood as their home are too small to entertain in.  So apartments of this size are a plus on many levels.

The videos that have been shared both show apartments that are much smaller than what is being proposed. From the article, it seems that the smallest apartment will be 300 sq ft and will go up to 450 sq ft. These sort of apartments already exist in Cleveland, University Studios on Euclid being an almost direct comparison. Now, I couldn't live in what University Studios has to offer because I like having a full kitchen, but my apartment in Lakewood is around 420 sq ft and it's just perfect, for me at least. These small apartments won't be everyone's cup of tea, but considering the area around Intesa (CWRU and the hospitals) there is a market for apartments this size.

The parking garage and green space takes up two-thirds of the project's surface area. Plus possibly another parking garage across the street on UH property. I wonder if this is the final site design. I'd love to see more apartments and office space and less parking, but that's not gonna happen.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/03/university_circle_could_see_pa.html

 

http://media.cleveland.com/business_impact/photo/lot-45-intesa-site-planjpg-41ccf3c7feda07d9.jpg

I like this.

 

I think there is absolutely a market for this in this neighborhood.  A place like this (at this extreme) wouldn't interest me personally because I like entertaining people too much, but for college kids looking to save money this is great.  If you aren't going to spend time inside, why spend money on it?

^ About 2 months ago I met with a developer in UC, and he mentioned the Triangle had re-configured a number of apartments from 2 BR, into two separate efficiencies, catering to a demand from foreign students. I guess this market doesn't need a tremendous amount of space, and place a premium on being nearby to the campus. I'm wondering if these smaller units are designed specifically with the same market in mind, or if this is a broader trend.

I like this.

 

I think there is absolutely a market for this in this neighborhood.  A place like this (at this extreme) wouldn't interest me personally because I like entertaining people too much, but for college kids looking to save money this is great.  If you aren't going to spend time inside, why spend money on it?

 

I would think that this would be out of the price range for most college students. Knowing the lifestyle that medical residents live and the hours that they work, I can see how a small apartment would be better scaled to their needs.

I hope it's a failure but I suspect it won't be.

 

Why? Are you a fan of unsustainable and unsightly suburban sprawl? The more people in a given area, the more it can support conveniences of life (shops, restaurants, laundromats) and frequent mass transit service. I don't even know why this is even a story. Millions of people (take NYC and Tokyo for example) live in spaces that are smaller than your typical CLE apartment and its completely acceptable. Are we saying its okay for THOSE people, but not us in CLE? Higher density is what this city sorely needs. In fact, the city of Cleveland is not even the most dense city in the state, as one would expect it to be---its the suburb of Lakewood.

 

Certainly if theres a market for them great, but to compare why they exist and are successful in New York and Tokyo is pretty off base here.  The majority of the reasons they exist in New York and Tokyo do not exist in Cleveland (and the fact that the area is mostly surrounded by abandoned houses and land doesn't really bode well for the argument of why something that is successful in New York and Tokyo wouldn't also be successful in Cleveland)     

I wonder how this affects the theory that people move from the coast to places like Cleveland because their dollars stretch further and buys them more space as opposed to places like NYC?

 

Yeah, but you'd have to compare it to something located on Madison Avenue or in Nob Hill in SF. University Circle is Cleveland's has the highest intensity of jobs, entertainment amenities, and cultural attractions of anywhere in the region, and you're going to pay to live in that neighborhood.

 

On a side note, from the PD article:

http://mobile.cleveland.com/advcleve/db_268982/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=o8G5LYoH&full=true#display

 

Ralph McGreevy, executive vice president of the Northeast Ohio Apartment Association, scoffed at the notion.

 

"Three-hundred square feet for Cleveland? What's the point?" he asked. "This is the land of the free, the home of the brave."

 

What does being free and brave have to do with urban housing? This is the most moronic quote I have ever seen in my life.

^Maybe he thinks it is part of the Agenda 21 conspiracy

Intesa is actually part of the conspiracy to make Cleveland attractive to young people and to address the low-rent economics that prevent the financing of more apartments that would expand McGreevy's constituency. And if Mr. McGreevy has a problem with that, then perhaps he needs to find a new calling in life, like making tin foil hats.

I like this.

 

I think there is absolutely a market for this in this neighborhood.  A place like this (at this extreme) wouldn't interest me personally because I like entertaining people too much, but for college kids looking to save money this is great.  If you aren't going to spend time inside, why spend money on it?

 

I would think that this would be out of the price range for most college students. Knowing the lifestyle that medical residents live and the hours that they work, I can see how a small apartment would be better scaled to their needs.

How much are you thinking the 300 square feet apartments will cost a month?

I'm not sure young people coming to Cleveland is a conspiracy.

 

So does this McGreevy guy have a reputation for being..."free and brave?" aka Wingbat

I'm not sure young people coming to Cleveland is a conspiracy.

 

 

It should be!

The Properties Magazine construction progress report notes that the developer is seeking tenants and construction possible for late 2013.  Hopefully they line up tenants soon as I'm guessing this doesn't start until next year.

The Properties Magazine construction progress report notes that the developer is seeking tenants and construction possible for late 2013.  Hopefully they line up tenants soon as I'm guessing this doesn't start until next year.

 

Peter Rubin has promised an Intesa update at All Aboard Ohio's "TOD on Tap" http://allaboardohio.org/2013/07/03/join-us-aug-8-for-our-tod-on-tap-tour/

^Excellent!

 

^^Man, I wish we had a like button.  Great news, and bully for you for putting this together

Please attend. We need more attendees. If you want to come but prefer to register with an e-mail and pay cash at the door, e-mail [email protected]

Dont want to get anyone too excited, but I noticed this in a recent article.

 

Micro apartments start to hit it big in Cleveland and other midsize markets

The nation's expensive housing markets have embraced so-called “micro apartments” in recent years as a way to expand the supply of affordable housing for young renters. Now, some midsize and lower-cost cities, including Cleveland, are joining the trend, according to this story from The Wall Street Journal.

 

The bet is that the tiny apartments — usually about 300 square feet — “will attract young professionals and recent college graduates, helping to revitalize city centers,” according to the newspaper, which notes that Census figures show that single-person households made up almost 27.8% of all U.S. households in 2012, up from 25.8% in 2000.

 

In Cleveland's University Circle, developer Coral Co. plans to start construction next year on 50 micro apartments as part of a large, mixed-use project, according to the story.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20131223/BLOGS03/131229945

Dont want to get anyone too excited

 

OK...

 

developer Coral Co. plans to

 

Mission Accomplished

We drove by the Intesa site on Saturday; there's a rendering posted there but no activity (didn't even expect the rendering there, lol). What's the latest on it? Does anyone here think it's really going to happen, and what's a realistic timetable for it?

We drove by the Intesa site on Saturday; there's a rendering posted there but no activity (didn't even expect the rendering there, lol). What's the latest on it? Does anyone here think it's really going to happen, and what's a realistic timetable for it?

 

Ive been wondering the same thing. The sign has been there for awhile though so nothing to get tooo excited about.

I am hearing rumblings that this project still has a pulse, such as meetings taking place at UCI, or GCRTA eager to make this site part of All Aboard Ohio's next "TOD On Tap" tour (in September). But other than that, I have no specifics.