Can I just say that OTR was alive last night during Bockfest? I went down around 6 and Taste of Belgium was packed, traffic was a little crazy down there and all the businesses were all lit up and looked warm and inviting. It was really nice to see. It is nice to see everytime I am there.

I went to Neon's on Friday night and it was basically at capacity, patio included.

OTR is starting to approach the popularity it had in the late 1990s, although its now more restaurants than bars and has moved over two blocks to Vine.  When Main St. was at its peak, all the cabs meant traffic was usually at a standstill like how it gets in Mt. Adams.  I remember going to The Diner one Friday night in 1994, and there was a line out the door and tons of foot traffic on Main.  I'm saying this because those who have arrived in Cincinnati in the past five years seem to think they are part of the first and only OTR revival. 

OTR is starting to approach the popularity it had in the late 1990s, although its now more restaurants than bars and has moved over two blocks to Vine.  When Main St. was at its peak, all the cabs meant traffic was usually at a standstill like how it gets in Mt. Adams.  I remember going to The Diner one Friday night in 1994, and there was a line out the door and tons of foot traffic on Main.  I'm saying this because those who have arrived in Cincinnati in the past five years seem to think they are part of the first and only OTR revival. 

 

I find this interesting, as I was only in grade school at this time. In Michael Uhlenake's 20-year history of OTR he laments the characterless bar scene on Main St. in the 1990's, but he notes that he approves of the restaurants and bars that currently populate Vine. Anyone with experience between the two scene's have a similar feeling towards them?

OTR is starting to approach the popularity it had in the late 1990s, although its now more restaurants than bars and has moved over two blocks to Vine.  When Main St. was at its peak, all the cabs meant traffic was usually at a standstill like how it gets in Mt. Adams.  I remember going to The Diner one Friday night in 1994, and there was a line out the door and tons of foot traffic on Main.  I'm saying this because those who have arrived in Cincinnati in the past five years seem to think they are part of the first and only OTR revival. 

 

I find this interesting, as I was only in grade school at this time. In Michael Uhlenake's 20-year history of OTR he laments the characterless bar scene on Main St. in the 1990's, but he notes that he approves of the restaurants and bars that currently populate Vine. Anyone with experience between the two scene's have a similar feeling towards them?

 

I almost responded jmecklenborg's post this morning to clarify that the two scenes are different in many ways. Both "popular" but today's OTR is vastly improved by in terms of its quality and breadth of offerings and its diversity of uses. More people of varying backgrounds live in OTR as opposed to the 1990s when OTR's traffic was almost exclusively barhoppers.

 

In my opinion, the two are worlds apart and the current situation is far more sustainable. This is, of course, largely 3CDC's doing.

The same kind of person could be found at The Barrelhouse as at Westminster's as at Have a Nice Day Cafe as at Sycamore Gardens.  At least there was some variety with The Warehouse and Kaldi's.

 

Now it's monocultural again -- people from money spending that money.  The only thing that was not part of the master plan was Grammer's 2008-2010. 

Another huge difference goes way beyond the bars and restaurants themselves.

 

There was virtually no residential component to the mid-late 90's OTR boom. Now, there is a massive influx of vested residents, who not only patronize these establishments, but then live next door to them as well. And OTR's residents are not just renters, but a significant number of owners as well. This makes a huge difference in the longevity of a neighborhood renaisance.

^Some condos on Broadway and side streets in Pendleton, but many apartments on Main and Clay.  Walnut was bad news and Vine east to Central Parkway was totally lawless.  Large brawls in the street and people regularly coming up to your window if you were stopped at a red light.  If you walked around with a camera, you were yelled at and had stuff thrown at you. 

The same kind of person could be found at The Barrelhouse as at Westminster's as at Have a Nice Day Cafe as at Sycamore Gardens.  At least there was some variety with The Warehouse and Kaldi's.

 

Now it's monocultural again -- people from money spending that money.  The only thing that was not part of the master plan was Grammer's 2008-2010.

 

I wouldn't describe OTR as monocultural at all. If anything, OTR is more diverse.

 

There are more shops on Main and the scattered residential growth is unique to today's rebirth. Findlay Market is in a stronger position too. The (in progress) decentralization of social services/shelters is another major difference.

 

I don't see much similarity between now and the mid-90s. In terms of "popularity" as in the quantity of people frequenting OTR, maybe. I think today is much more evenly spread out and balanced.

The crowd has shifted from being middle class beer hooligans to wealthy people who take photos of what they're about to eat and post it on Facebook. 

The crowd has shifted from being middle class beer hooligans to wealthy people who take photos of what they're about to eat and post it on Facebook.

 

Excellent observation! If you think about it, the economic development strategy of those restaurants is to attract and impress people who would otherwise disregard OTR, and it's working. The more instagrams of nice food and buildings, the better. Genius.

The crowd has shifted from being middle class beer hooligans to wealthy people who take photos of what they're about to eat and post it on Facebook.

 

Is that such a problem? Don't most successful cities have a pretty sizable chunk of these people, and neighborhoods where young professionals/hipsters are like cicadas? Also, the newer establishments (in the Gateway Quarter and otherwise) might be fairly monolithic, but those aren't the only establishments in the entire neighborhood, from what I can tell (I don't live in Cincinnati right now, I'm not speaking from experience).

 

At any rate, to what extent do you see "monoculturalism" as being a threat to OTR's recovery (if at all)? Do you see this as being a temporary phase, exactly the same as the 1990s resurgence? Or do you see the two as materially different?

2 Live Carew-  you have to learn something about Jake... He pretty much doesn't enjoy people.  He loves Cincinnati though!! A lot!  Just not the people who live here (today). Historical figures are great, general sentiments of what things "used to be like" are all fine. but not today:  He hates on hipsters, the young professionals who live in 3CDC developments, the Suburbanites who patronize the vine street restaurants, the kentuckians who go to Toby Keith's and even the people who love the Lager House apparently.  :)

 

Your best bet is just to ignore it and enjoy his vast wealth of knowledge- which is very impressive- seriously. 

 

 

>At any rate, to what extent do you see "monoculturalism" as being a threat to OTR's recovery (if at all)? Do you see this as being a temporary phase, exactly the same as the 1990s resurgence? Or do you see the two as materially different?

 

Well I hope that the current immature phase passes, in which a core group of about 100 people aged 25-30 (with a few over 30) have sort of laid claim to the place, forming a certain part of their personal identity around it, paying no respect to the many people who toiled in anonymity for the past 20-30 years working to physically save the neighborhood. 

 

I suggest picking up a copy of this somewhat obscure collection of nonfiction writing by Hemingway:

http://www.biblio.com/ernest-hemingway/the-wild-years~36398745~title

 

He goes on at length about phony bohemian culture in Paris in the 1920s.  Much of the revival of American cities over the past 20 years has not been a celebration of distinctly American culture, but rather a copping of French cafe/fashion.  Actually it's more than that -- it's a rejection of rock & roll, in the way that the French can't both rock and be French. 

paying no respect to the many people who toiled in anonymity for the past 20-30 years working to physically save the neighborhood.

 

Surely this is a bit of an exaggeration as you have no way of knowing how much respect these people pay to those who worked to save the neighborhood. When they are having a drink at the Lackman, Jimmy and Chloe Hipster are not going to necessarily be having a conversation thanking god for Person X who filed a petition in 1987 that saved this building from the bulldozer.  Could 3CDC have swooped in and done everything they did in the past 5 years if all of the historic stock had been demolished 20 years ago? No. Would the past 20-30 years mean anything if the neighborhood was still crumbling and those "100" or so people weren't living there, hanging out there, and spending money there and making the next wave of residents/consumers/business owners feel comfortable making an investment down there?  Probably not.

>At any rate, to what extent do you see "monoculturalism" as being a threat to OTR's recovery (if at all)? Do you see this as being a temporary phase, exactly the same as the 1990s resurgence? Or do you see the two as materially different?

 

Well I hope that the current immature phase passes, in which a core group of about 100 people aged 25-30 (with a few over 30) have sort of laid claim to the place, forming a certain part of their personal identity around it, paying no respect to the many people who toiled in anonymity for the past 20-30 years working to physically save the neighborhood. 

 

I suggest picking up a copy of this somewhat obscure collection of nonfiction writing by Hemingway:

 

http://www.biblio.com/ernest-hemingway/the-wild-years~36398745~title

 

He goes on at length about phony bohemian culture in Paris in the 1920s.  Much of the revival of American cities over the past 20 years has not been a celebration of distinctly American culture, but rather a copping of French cafe/fashion.  Actually it's more than that -- it's a rejection of rock & roll, in the way that the French can't both rock and be French. 

 

There is actually kind of a hipster core that shows up at various OTR and downtown spots every weekend, I'll give you that. I know some of them. But that's all I'll give you.

 

People seem to forget Cincinnati is a big city. Its topography and insulated neighborhoods belie the true size of the metropolitan area. It is a Munich, a Warsaw, a Tel Aviv. On any given evening there are scores of different kinds of people patronizing the new places in OTR. The most confounding thing about Cincinnati, as with many American mid-sized cities, is there flabbergasting untapped potential. It's absolutely NOT the same 100 people showing up in OTR every Saturday.

2 Live Carew-  you have to learn something about Jake... He pretty much doesn't enjoy people.  He loves Cincinnati though!! A lot!  Just not the people who live here (today). Historical figures are great, general sentiments of what things "used to be like" are all fine. but not today:  He hates on hipsters, the young professionals who live in 3CDC developments, the Suburbanites who patronize the vine street restaurants, the kentuckians who go to Toby Keith's and even the people who love the Lager House apparently.  :)

 

Your best bet is just to ignore it and enjoy his vast wealth of knowledge- which is very impressive- seriously.

 

This discussion is basically an extension of Jake's blog post from September 2011:

http://cincinnatimonocle.blogspot.com/2011/09/over-rhine-hipstersbe-first-to-see.html

 

Perhaps we should start a Jake Mecklenborg thread since we're kinda going off topic...(ps- buy his book: http://www.amazon.com/Cincinnatis-Incomplete-Subway-Complete-History/dp/1596298952)

 

 

People seem to forget Cincinnati is a big city. Its topography and insulated neighborhoods belie the true size of the metropolitan area. It is a Munich, a Warsaw, a Tel Aviv. On any given evening there are scores of different kinds of people patronizing the new places in OTR. The most confounding thing about Cincinnati, as with many American mid-sized cities, is there flabbergasting untapped potential. It's absolutely NOT the same 100 people showing up in OTR every Saturday.

 

Yeah, what we're actually seeing is Cincinnati starting to act like a big city and reclaiming OTR from total destruction. The "hipsters" and the YPs that support OTR are only one part of its rebirth. Perhaps social media can make it seem like a "core group" is laying claim to it (maybe some are?) but OTR's fantastic strides in the past few years are not due to 100 25-30 year olds.  There might be "regulars" but OTR is constantly filled with outsiders who grew up thinking OTR was a mix of the 38th parallel and Paul Kersey's NYC and leave thinking its awesome.

 

This is kind of an amusing conversation (just like Jake's cincinnatimonocle blog) but I'd rather have it in private than on UO. But I will say this, I think Jake is acting like a perfect #4 on the list of "20 characters you'll find on a neighborhood email list":

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/02/20-characters-youll-meet-every-neighborhood-email-list/1314/

:-D

 

 

The crowd has shifted from being middle class beer hooligans to wealthy people who take photos of what they're about to eat and post it on Facebook.

 

Also, the newer establishments (in the Gateway Quarter and otherwise) might be fairly monolithic, but those aren't the only establishments in the entire neighborhood, from what I can tell (I don't live in Cincinnati right now, I'm not speaking from experience).

 

2LiveCarew, there is so much work still left to be done in OTR and the Gateway Quarter. 3CDC and its partner own a great deal of the property south of Liberty but haven't renovated it all yet. So for an outsider it's important to remember that OTR has made huge strides but there's still quite a lot left to do. I worry that locals see OTR's successes and think to themselves "that's enough" when their vision needs to be so much bigger.

 

And you're right, the newer eateries (on Vine St. especially) have received a lot of attention because they are some of the best places to eat and drink in the city (and...they're in Over-the-Rhine which is a double shocker: http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/over-the-rhine-is-cincinnatis-restaurant-hot-spot/)...but there are plenty of other places and hopefully more to come.

I'm going to briefly comment on Jake's post simply because I've had this discussion with him before.

 

I took my girlfriend to Bakersfield once and we sat at the community table. I've been a resident of OTR for 2 years now so I haven't been here as long as Mike U. or others but I believe in OTR's potential and I wanted to be a part of the positive change that is happening in the city's core. Anyway, we were the only ones at the community table and this group of young people, two guys and three girls come in and sit across from us. They were dressed nice but not particularly fancy (looked like people I would see in Mount Adams). They never introduced themselves to us, and carried on as if we weren't there. It was extremely unnerving to witness these people because I could tell they had no idea they knew anything about the area, anything about the history. It was as if it was like the people that made OTR what it is today made it for them and they didn't really care anything about that, they just cared about themselves.

 

It was unsettling but I realized that this is what successful revitalization looks like and in the end, even though OTR moves towards becoming yuppy/hipster gentrified it was a good thing for the city. I still hang out with the people that moved here because they loved this place and want to make it better but there is the other crowd that comes here from somewhere else to stare at me at Bakersfield but that's all part of the neighborhood improving.

 

*Note: I am considering splitting this discussion off, but for the time being it can stay until I decide on what to call the new topic.

^ there are people like that, definitely, but also i've made friends with many strangers I met at places in OTR. It all happens, the good, the bad- te outsiders, the new insiders, the natives. That's what a strong neighborhood has.

 

The difference is that so many of us are used to OTR being this isolated paradise, or this diamond in the rough we've been working to shine for decades.

 

But now it seems like people are afraid to let go.  There's nothing wrong with these people visiting. If they didn't, the restaurants wouldn't survive.  If anyone thought that revitalizing OTR meant that only people like those who worked tirelessly to save it would spend time there, you were very wrong.

 

 

Depends John. Do you know that they were not from OTR? There are times when I am with a group of people that we don't care to introduce ourselves to other folks or to make a passing glance at others - including the community table at Bakersfield. Not that it is being anti-social, but there are times when some folks really don't want to converse with others. Perhaps the seating was tight and they wanted to just keep to themselves?

 

I find myself at coffee houses a lot lately working, and I keep to myself a lot. I don't think it unnerves people who sit next to me and carry on a conversation when I'm quietly typing, nor does it bother me that they carry on a conversation. Everyone is different.

 

But I agree with OCtoCincy - a revitalized OTR needs to be diverse. It needs folks from all walks of life to be vibrant and inclusive, from the young professionals to the low income to the hipsters and those who began the revitalization in the 1990s. A neighborhood that segregates itself or falls back to a false past is one that isn't strong. So many are working to bring OTR back, not to just save the buildings from being demolished in the largest historic district in the United States, but to be well rounded full of restaurants, unique shops, general stores and of course, bars. Revitalization means that there is economic potential and the hope that at some point that OTR can break free of government intervention (e.g. subsidies) so that it can reduce the cost of living in the neighborhood.

imho, it's silly and unproductive to have an attitude of elitism towards individuals were not part of the initial renaissance of OTR.

 

The fact that suburbanites/newbies are even coming into OTR, let alone spending lots of money here each weekend, shows how this neighborhood is turning into a live/work/play destination for all -- a crucial part of its long term success.

 

Like it or not, the dollar that will continue to open new restaurants/bars, and buy condos here are more than likely from the suburbs. They are a part of the solution, not part of any problem. Without them, there won't be a whole lot more growth.

Hey I'm new here, I just wanted to say that I love Cincy, and OTR. I moved here five years ago and soon for some reason found myself enamoured with the cities history and former culture. I really enjoy coming to these forums, and reading about the interesting and relevent topics that you bring up, finding new facts in the posts, learning of new developments, events, or things of the past. The only thing that I really have a problem with is this overall accepted hatred that a lot of you seem to have towards "hipsters". I think it's pretty silly for someone today to hold such negative sentiments for a generalized group of people. Really, it upsets me, I don't label myself, but I'm probably what you people would describe as a "hipster", I also live in Fairview because I go to UC, so I only go down to OTR on the weekends. A lot of my friends and I like to go down to OTR, we love it there, and you probably see us as "those invasive lousy hipsters".  How would you know what I'm like? That I read about OTR and it's history almost everyday? That I really do love this city, and want to be a part of making it a better place? You wouldn't, because of your idiotic stereotype. And my friends, who do also care, (but maybe not as much as me) at what fault are they for being there? They're good, intelligent people, most studying in fields with the intentions to help people. As I see it "hipster" is just a label. It's a style of dress, and maybe a general similar interest in music. Some people are a-holes, a lot are not, just take the time to get to know someone, and don't judge them based on a pre-conceived notion. Cool, thats it.

 

Mod Note: Edited for language.

I had no intention of getting this this far off topic when I posted about the differences between the 90's scene and today. I was very tempted to post it initially in a new topic in the City Discussions section, but didn't think it'd cause such discourse. That said, thanks to everyone for the insightful commentary. I have quite a different appreciation and understanding of OTR and the people on this board.

 

Unfortunately, my friends and I are definitely what you would consider the "people [JYP] would see at Mt. Adams," though I do intend to show them about the various restaurants and bars in OTR sometime soon. I hope that we don't make anyone that usually frequents these establishment uncomfortable or unwanted, and vice versa. OTR is too good and too important to culture-squabble over.

I think I agree with a lot of the anti-classism stuff here. I'm not that worried about whether OTR is populated by "beer-drinking hooligans" or "hipsters" or "yuppies," as long as it's safe, vibrant, and a positive contribution to the city. If people care about the city and its well-being--or even if they don't, but just like to unwind or have fun in an area where it benefits the city as a whole--good on them, IMO. The more the merrier. I'm fine with it being only "one sort" of people for now, as long as other "sorts" feel welcome and invited now and later on.

 

Just my $.02. Sorry this has moved way off topic.

On the contrary, I think this conversation is great: It's a sign that the area is truly revitalizing.

You guys are behind the times.  The hipsters in OTR have already been overrun by the Mt. Adams/Mt. Lookout crowd.  Weekends in OTR now resemble a marriage between Mt. Adams and Mt. Lookout, with maybe only a smaller percentage of frat boys in the crowd.  Weekdays are still safe, though.  Hipsters have migrated away to some neighborhood that most of us probably haven’t heard of; probably Camp Washington or something.

Probably up at the Rake's End in Brighton.

Depends John. Do you know that they were not from OTR? There are times when I am with a group of people that we don't care to introduce ourselves to other folks or to make a passing glance at others - including the community table at Bakersfield. Not that it is being anti-social, but there are times when some folks really don't want to converse with others. Perhaps the seating was tight and they wanted to just keep to themselves?

 

I find myself at coffee houses a lot lately working, and I keep to myself a lot. I don't think it unnerves people who sit next to me and carry on a conversation when I'm quietly typing, nor does it bother me that they carry on a conversation. Everyone is different.

 

But I agree with OCtoCincy - a revitalized OTR needs to be diverse. It needs folks from all walks of life to be vibrant and inclusive, from the young professionals to the low income to the hipsters and those who began the revitalization in the 1990s. A neighborhood that segregates itself or falls back to a false past is one that isn't strong. So many are working to bring OTR back, not to just save the buildings from being demolished in the largest historic district in the United States, but to be well rounded full of restaurants, unique shops, general stores and of course, bars. Revitalization means that there is economic potential and the hope that at some point that OTR can break free of government intervention (e.g. subsidies) so that it can reduce the cost of living in the neighborhood.

Yeah, there really was no way for me to know for sure but they didn't look like the type of people that even buy condo's in the Gateway Quarter. The thing was that it was the "communal table" and I could tell Bakersfield had it their for a reason, which is the opportunity for different groups to interact. I chalk this up to an opportunity lost but I'm sure it has been successful with others.

 

I'm not trying to say this is good or bad, but that it's different and it's a good different that takes some adjusting to.

 

 

Ram2 you are correct about the Mt. Adams and Mt. Lookout people.

 

Meanwhile, Brighton has become a hipster crossroads as its is equidistant between the rival Covington and Reading bridal district hipsters. 

Yea it just comes with the territory.  The more dense and urban a place is, the more passive and transient a place can become.  At extremes look at NYC and SF.  They have done studies on this....they go something like this: the same act of crime or bigotry happens in a small town restaurant and in a NYC restaurant.  In the small town ppl are much more likely to speak up or do something about the situation while in NYC ppl are less likely to get involved.  OTR can't function like a small town/tight knit group of people forever, not in the middle of urban Cincinnati. 

^ im pretty sure that crime statistic has been rebuffed as a standard anti-urban talking point. Until I see a study that shows that, I will continue to observe it as a made up lie about why cities are scary and dangerous.

 

 

Also- Jake, I think you are probably the most elitist person on this forum. When you were 18 I bet there was some 35 year old complaining about the "annoying grunge kids who think they're so cool".

 

These stupid ageist arguments are incredibly annoying.  The people who complain about "Mt Adams kids or Hipsters" are just as annoying as the homeless advocates who complained when YOU, the young urbanists showed up into their neighborhood 15 years before that.

^ im pretty sure that crime statistic has been rebuffed as a standard anti-urban talking point. Until I see a study that shows that, I will continue to observe it as a made up lie about why cities are scary and dangerous.

 

 

Whaaa?  What statistic?  I didn't quote statistics.  Its a simply study of human geography/sociology.  There has been countless studies on this.  I'm not talking murder or rape - I am talking about how transient and inpersonal people become after certain densities are met.  I recently watched something on this - there was a waitress loudly refusing to serve a gay couple in middle of nowhere Texas and a waitress loudly refusing to serve a gay couple in Midtown Manhattan.  The other restaurant patrons in the Texas restaurant were muuuch more likely to speak up than those in Manhattan - not because of opinions on the GLBT, but because people in the rural community function differently than do people living in high densities.   

Yeah, there really was no way for me to know for sure but they didn't look like the type of people that even buy condo's in the Gateway Quarter. The thing was that it was the "communal table" and I could tell Bakersfield had it their for a reason, which is the opportunity for different groups to interact. I chalk this up to an opportunity lost but I'm sure it has been successful with others.

 

I'm not trying to say this is good or bad, but that it's different and it's a good different that takes some adjusting to.

 

 

 

:roll: Do you also get offended by people who don't say hi when they walk by on the sidewalk?  I have been to countless restaurants in LA that use communal tables, and interaction among groups is definitely a rarity.  In big cities, people tend to mind their own business, and not concern themselves with others as much.

 

The reason most restaurants use communal tables is to fit more people into their restaurant, not to force interaction among patrons.  What if a group of non English speakers were seated next to you? Would you still have a problem with them keeping to themselves?  :roll:

I am always offended when people don't say hi on the sidewalk!!

 

But all kidding aside, it was one of many examples of the changing nature of OTR that I've witnessed over the past year or so.

 

 

it was one of many examples of the changing nature of OTR that I've witnessed over the past year or so.

 

that's enlightening...did you introduce yourself and try to strike up a convo? or was it just mega awkward.

 

Probably up at the Rake's End in Brighton.

+1

 

 

On the contrary, I think this conversation is great: It's a sign that the area is truly revitalizing.

 

But it is revealing, even if only of individual experiences.  What it indicates to me is that the ripples of urban redevelopment are starting to overlap which can cause friction. The more pioneering ought to be ahead of the curve with their supports in the trough of the wave behind them and then the next wave is less pioneering but brings with it an even broader clientele...that's not a very eloquent way to say it but my point is that the redevelopment is probably becoming a little too concentrated. Maybe it's time for new risk takers to take the next big step...somewhere other than Vine or Main. My two cents.

it was one of many examples of the changing nature of OTR that I've witnessed over the past year or so.

 

that's enlightening...did you introduce yourself and try to strike up a convo? or was it just mega awkward.

 

 

I attempted a wave and then there were some awkward stares until they started talking amongst themselves.

^ bahaha opening a business on main or vine isn't really a "risk" anymore...I'm sure theres plenty of restaurantuers and investors looking in this area now.

 

but how many of these Hyde Park/Mt. Lookout/Mt. Adams tourists would be down with buying a property north of Liberty, or walking from their shiny new condo in Mercer up to watch a movie at the Imperial Theatre...oh wait.

 

There's still plenty of risk to be taken and areas to be explored. We are far. far from being done.

^ bahaha opening a business on main or vine isn't really a "risk" anymore...I'm sure theres plenty of restaurantuers and investors looking in this area now.

...

There's still plenty of risk to be taken and areas to be explored. We are far. far from being done.

 

That's precisely my point. I was trying to underscore the point that Main and Vine aren't very "risky" anymore...though north of 15th on Vine is pretty untouched at this time. There are many frontiers to OTR so the hipsters should be welcome for a long time...

>Jake, I think you are probably the most elitist person on this forum.

 

I'm definitely the best-looking. 

 

 

>These stupid ageist arguments are incredibly annoying.  The people who complain about "Mt Adams kids or Hipsters" are just as annoying as the homeless advocates who complained when YOU, the young urbanists showed up into their neighborhood 15 years before that.

 

 

No, it's completely different.  Buddy Gray descended upon the neighborhood circa 1980 because he could pick high profile fights with preservationists in a way he couldn't if he had set up shop in, say, Golf Manor. 

 

 

Spent a lot of time in OTR for Bockfest.  In fact took my folks to see it.  Stayed at Garfield Suites.

 

Followed the parade up to Bockfest Hall (that old brewrey) and then walked back to hotel.  Later at night, took the shuttle bus to Graemmers, for old times sake since the last time we were there was in the fall of 1977 (one of my first ever visits to Cincy).  Place has changed.  Was expecting it to be more restaurant-ish.  But after a few beers and the band playing all was well. 

 

The next day we walked OTR some more.  A walk up to Findlay Market (Krauses) to get some wursts and stuff for my Ma, plus a little bit of other shopping.  Then we took that church tour...saw two old Lutheran churches, a Methodist church, and the amazing St Francis Seraph....did you know it has an inner courtyard and was built on the site of the first cemetary and catholic church in Cincy...and some of the cemetary remains were reinterrred as a crypt, with the flooring made up of the old tombstones?!  Wow....the place just oozes history.  Great interior too.

 

After the church tour we took a short drive thourght the Liberty Hill area, which I had walked a few weeks ago.  This would have been too much on foot for my elderly parents.  But this is a neat sub-neighborhood of OTR, I guess.  A bar in Liberty Hill was on the Bocfest shuttle route, though.

 

Sunday was the Continental Sunday which we spent at Bockfest Hall. 

 

We did some other Cincy stuff (Freedom Center, Museum Center, Fountain Square/Maceys, Rookwood Commons, dinner at Lenhardts), but the bulk of the trip was in the basin...a we did a lot of walking/riding up and back from Garfield Place and OTR.  Big miss was Washington Platform, which is mentioned in Tolzmanns' new tour guide to German OTR as a nearby site w. German connections.  This trip was more about German Cincy, since my ma is German and  retains her German cultural identity (though a US citizen)

 

Dad was really impressed with what was going on.  Ma was a bit saddended about the small congregations of those churches we saw (parlty because she, too, belongs to a small donwtown Lutheran congregation in Louisville).  They both are in love with Findlay Market, though, just as I am. 

^nice story. Even though your mother is Lutheran, she might enjoy Old St. Mary's German services: http://www.oldstmarys.org/

OTR is just fascinating for me.  I wasnt around for the Main Street heyday, but what is their now is interesting in its own right.  A mix of stuff.  I tend to go to Iris Bookcafe a lot on Main (found out via tip from Sherman...thanks, Sherman....), and get notecards at Park + Vine.

 

A place on Main thats really neat is the T-shirt printing place that puts pix on T-shirts.  I had them make a cool Dayton t-shirt for me from one of my pix.

OTR is making great strides, it it anywhere close to reaching its potential? Not yet.

 

I think that is in part due to all the Redtape and Roadblocks the city throws in the way. From the VBML (Vacant Building Maintence License) To a Historic Conservation Board that has been there forever (even though there are term limits) Ignored of course by city officials.

 

Without these roadblocks I am sure OTR would even be a better place than its already is. Its getting better but I suspect the current wave of "urban pioneers' will be priced out of the market as occurs in most downtown areas. I dont know how well the pace will sustain as areas like Price Hill and Fairmount are starting to see preservationists coming in but I wish OTR the best.

^ I've heard people talk about how the VBML's are bad, but I've never actually heard of a situation where it stopped someone from developing something.

 

Can someone explain to me a real situation where someone was trying to develop something but a VBML stopped them?  Not a hypothetical.  But a tangible example.  Trying to understand who these are hurting or what buildings in particular are stuck by them.

The problem with the VBML is banks do not understand it and percieve it  as potential lien situation or encumbrance againt the property. If is very difficuly for private individuals or a small business to obtain financing.  The lenders I work with won't touch property with VBML's against them.

 

The VBML adds to project cost not only via the Fees 900.00 a year and go up each year but the VBML generally gets converted to a condemn status because the "investor types" that owned many of these buildings didn't pay it. That means you then have to spend additional funds with architects and structutral engineers to prove the building is sound. Legal fees to get everything cleared up can run thousands.

 

Add all that into the fact there are usually multiple liens against the buildings for other things, a building in OTR is cost prohibitive to most people who would like to buy a building, restore it and locate a business there.

 

I personally know of several people (myself included) who wrote off OTR for my business location. I am looking in Newport/Covington which does not have VBML and the cities are not condemn happy.

 

Unfortunately, city inspections is 'addicted ' to CDBG funds to keep their budget in shape ( city gets an administrative fee from fed) It is in their best interest to show as many blighted/condemned properties so they can qualify for more Federal funding. This is why Cincinnati is behind other cites with their urban core.

 

Redtape and Roadblocks do not foster development. Thats why the OTR turnaround is taking so long

It's insanely more complicated than vbml, if a $900 vbml is make or break for someone, they shouldn't be rehabbing a building.  Like it or not a neighborhood that's had decades of negligent owners is going to have properties with liens, title issues, etc.  maybe it's just me but I don't understand the whole "buy a project" building without being able to finance the rehab.  If you don't hand the money now, your not gonna have it in a year, 5 years, etc.

Ya- joe is right. The VBML is not stopping someone who has the $250,000 in financing from fixing up a building.

 

Also- paul, you're not from here so you may not realize that OTR has been neglected for over 40 years. up until only about 15 years ago no one rehabbed anything because Buddy Gray would lead protests against nearly any development that wasnt affordable housing. Then he was killed in 1996 as momentum was growing to fix up OTR. Then the riots 5 years later, and now, in the midst of the greatest economic catastrophe in 70 years OTR is growing dramatically. You're acting like a $900 fee would stop a hundred thousand dollar project. All it does is put pressure on property hoarders to do something with them.

Back in the early 1980's Buddy Gray and his supporters defeated several attempts by the city to designate Over-the-Rhine as a Historic District. The reason was if the designation went through, the neighborhood would be eligible for historic tax credits and would subsequently gentrify. He wanted OTR to be a homeless paradise of sorts where the downtrodden and rejected of the city would stake their claim, hence the concentration of social services in the neighborhood.

 

Gray was killed in 1996 by a homeless man he was trying to help.

 

Zane Miller and Bruce Tucker wrote an excellent book on the history of OTR in a broader planning context. It can be found here: https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/29305/1/CHANGING_PLANS_FOR_AMERICAS_INNER_CITIES.pdf

 

 

Joe, I know the whole history/dynamic of OTR. I also know the cost of legal fees to clear liens and deal with the city. I  self finance all my projects and was looking at several larger retail buildings that would house my 3 businesses.  I might add, I do real restoration not the Neo urbanist crap 3cdc puts out , no exposed brick ductwork HGTV loft crap.

 

I'm spending 250K in Fairmount (Knox Hill) restoring a 1871 Second Empire cottage. My budget for the commercial is 5-7 times that . I can buy a similar building in Covington or Newport for far less money, its typically in better condition and I won't spend 30-50k in additional legal fees, reports and other hoops I would have to jump through in OTR with the city.

 

Frankly after looking extensively around Findlay and  Brewery district, I reached the conclusion that  I would spend far more in OTR, probably have less exposure, and have the constant headache of dealing with a largely incompetent good ole boy city permit and inspection department.  When somone like Mike Morgan, one of the biggest advocates for OTR, is suing the  HCB, Urban Conservator and city because they wont issue him a permits, to fix a building that no one else will save? That says a lot. I've read his lawsuit and its been a nightmare for him trying to deal with the city in OTR and its not the only person I know who is suing the city, or simply walked away from a project.

 

My own neighborhood association  (Knox Hill) had to file a federal complaint with HUD because the city was doing demolitions without proper section 106 reviews.

Sigh. Dick waving commence.