^you might want to submit your ideas of how to make the process better by participating in the Department of Building and Planning's PLAN BUILD LIVE initiative: http://planbuildlivecincinnati.com/

Joe, I know the whole history/dynamic of OTR. I also know the cost of legal fees to clear liens and deal with the city. I  self finance all my projects and was looking at several larger retail buildings that would house my 3 businesses.  I might add, I do real restoration not the Neo urbanist crap 3cdc puts out , no exposed brick ductwork HGTV loft crap.

 

I'm spending 250K in Fairmount (Knox Hill) restoring a 1871 Second Empire cottage. My budget for the commercial is 5-7 times that . I can buy a similar building in Covington or Newport for far less money, its typically in better condition and I won't spend 30-50k in additional legal fees, reports and other hoops I would have to jump through in OTR with the city.

 

Frankly after looking extensively around Findlay and  Brewery district, I reached the conclusion that  I would spend far more in OTR, probably have less exposure, and have the constant headache of dealing with a largely incompetent good ole boy city permit and inspection department.  When somone like Mike Morgan, one of the biggest advocates for OTR, is suing the  HCB, Urban Conservator and city because they wont issue him a permits, to fix a building that no one else will save? That says a lot. I've read his lawsuit and its been a nightmare for him trying to deal with the city in OTR and its not the only person I know who is suing the city, or simply walked away from a project.

 

My own neighborhood association  (Knox Hill) had to file a federal complaint with HUD because the city was doing demolitions without proper section 106 reviews.

 

your commentary raises concerns to me about what the future for small scale developers might look like in OTR. is 3CDC going to run the show for the foreseeable future?

Keep in mind large parts of OtR aren't single family houses and therefore make it tough for small parties to do such things. In large project estimating You break down expenses as a 5k, 50k, 500k expense so when your brainstorming with clients you can give them some perspective on what theyre dealing with.  I see alot of folks getting into 5k projects that should really be 50k to do it right. Say what you will about 3cdc but I see worse quality when you have small groups/owners who get in over there head and are then forced to cut corners.

Keep in mind large parts of OtR aren't single family houses and therefore make it tough for small parties to do such things.

 

Some people want to take historic apartment buildings and "restore" them to single family homes. You know, in a tribute to that long forgotten piece of "history" that never actually happened.

 

I bring that up because you're talking to such a person.

Hell, I don't know what all this hipster nonsense is all about... I moved to OTR four years ago for one reason and one reason only: to walk to 40 Reds games a season and amass a closet full of bobbleheads.  I gotta say I don't particularly mind what's been happening to the neighborhood lately, and I've eaten at most of the new restaurants at least once, but it'd be nice to see a few places open that aren't such a "destination" for the entire rest of the city that the humanity inside them literally spills out into the street.  You know.

 

Also, anybody that can't get into Bakersfield because of a two-hour wait should hoof it to 8th and Walnut and give Taqueria Mercado some business.  Not mindblowing by any means but definitely reasonable and they have Dos Equis Amber on tap.

Joe, I totally agree that far too many people go into OTR and completely underestimate costs. I write restoration  plans and bid specs for clients all the time. These buildings are not cheap to restore (especially when you add in Cincinnati permit fees, Ohio requires architect stamped blueprints in most situations), and when you call permits you will get  a totally different answer depending on who you speak to.

 

Certainly larger developers (who can gain the historic tax credits) fair better . Also when you have the ability to do multiple projects, materials  can be bought in bulk and you subs are usally going from one project to next so there isnt down time.

 

Having said that , if the city wanted to encourage small development in OTR, and you need it because even 3cdc at the rate they are going cant possibly rebuild everything,  there are things the city could do and its nothing new that other cities are doing some of these things.

 

Creating of reinvestment zones with No Permit Fees, raise the city tax credit from 275 to 500K and increase  that to 750 k for LEED. The city could also eliminate the VBML entirely in favor of specific code based repairs so buyers know what it is expected. The VBML precludes occupancy also. Who in their right mind will restore a building and not live in it?

 

There is a reason why OTR is behind Louisville and Indy in downtown rebirth. It's the redtape. Many out of state people come to OTR and come from envirionments where city government works. Unless you know how other cities operate, you really have no idea how badly this city is run .

 

There should be a common sense approach not only in OTR but all urban neighborhoods. When people want to come in and invest in an area we should encourage them, not throw so  much red tape in their way that they throw up their hands in disgust and go elsewhere. I see it happen far to often here and it doesn't have to be that way. Clearly when you look just across the river at Convington and Newport we can see that turnaround of neighborhood and business districts is possible. Same architecture, similar declines but different rates of comeback. There is a reason why OTR is lagging in  turnaround and its city policies that are rooted in 1940 , not today.

Sigh. Dick waving commence.

Exactly.

 

Joe, I know the whole history/dynamic of OTR. I also know the cost of legal fees to clear liens and deal with the city. I  self finance all my projects and was looking at several larger retail buildings that would house my 3 businesses.  I might add, I do real restoration not the Neo urbanist crap 3cdc puts out , no exposed brick ductwork HGTV loft crap.

 

I'm spending 250K in Fairmount (Knox Hill) restoring a 1871 Second Empire cottage. My budget for the commercial is 5-7 times that . I can buy a similar building in Covington or Newport for far less money, its typically in better condition and I won't spend 30-50k in additional legal fees, reports and other hoops I would have to jump through in OTR with the city.

 

Frankly after looking extensively around Findlay and  Brewery district, I reached the conclusion that  I would spend far more in OTR, probably have less exposure, and have the constant headache of dealing with a largely incompetent good ole boy city permit and inspection department.  When somone like Mike Morgan, one of the biggest advocates for OTR, is suing the  HCB, Urban Conservator and city because they wont issue him a permits, to fix a building that no one else will save? That says a lot. I've read his lawsuit and its been a nightmare for him trying to deal with the city in OTR and its not the only person I know who is suing the city, or simply walked away from a project.

 

My own neighborhood association  (Knox Hill) had to file a federal complaint with HUD because the city was doing demolitions without proper section 106 reviews.

 

your commentary raises concerns to me about what the future for small scale developers might look like in OTR. is 3CDC going to run the show for the foreseeable future?

 

I'm writing this reply for people like mcadrenaline who do not know RestorationConsultant (Real name: P. Willham) and the ax he loves to grind. Mr. Willham has manifold problems but the two most relevant to this conversation:

[*]He's a faux preservationist operating in a "neighborhood" he created out of thin air

[*]His envy of OTR's rebirth is clearly part of his modus operandi

 

1. Let's start with the imaginary "Knox Hill." It simply does not exist. It was created in the mind of Mr. Willham and has no basis in reality to anyone that has not been subject to Mr. Willham's pathetic propaganda. The "Knox Hill Neighborhood Association" does not exist outside the confines of Mr. Willham's mind either, though its professional website declares it to be a "501C3 (pending) community organization." Pending, of course. Do you really think your elaborate con will fool anyone enough into "saving Knox Hill and South Fairmount" with you?

 

Do not sully Mike Morgan's name by discussing things about which you know NOTHING. You and other faux "preservationists" like "Lacey Dresses" are accomplishing nothing good. "Lacey" (Real name: L. Sipes) lost her suit against OTR ADOPT (the entity that let her "adopt" 1737 Elm St. at no cost) in a cut and dry case. She butchered 1737 Elm St in OTR near Findlay Market then high-tailed it out of town after trying to blame OTR ADOPT. You defended Ms. Sipes' lie that "The IRS only recognized  OTRADOPT as a non profit in JUNE 2011 well after the contract with the buyers of the property." This proved to be a lie and OTR ADOPT easily won the lawsuit in court. OTR ADOPT was incorporated as a nonprofit on 1/21/11 - look it up.

 

This brings us to point two.

 

2. Sadly, you have something against OTR. Do you feel that Knox Hill/South Fairmount is threatened by OTR's amazing renaissance? After all, you wrote:

Most people think of South Fairmount as a "dumping ground" for section 8 refugees from Over-the-Rhine and recently many have speculated that the remainders of that demographic and the homeless would be shuffling off to South Fairmount based on the new Urban friendly Washington Park project proposed by 3CDC and the City Of Cincinnati, that trades basketball courts for dog parks.

 

Is that why you malign its revitalization, the Cincinnati Preservation Association, the OTR Foundation, 3CDC, et al? I really don't understand why you care enough to misdirect every OTR related thread back to how horrible it is and how great things are in "Knox Hill."

 

Finally, you need to apologize to Thomas Palmer at Preservation Ohio, Lucy May at the Cincinnati Business Courier, and everyone else who received your 'news release' and believed it. You lied to them about "the generosity of one of Knox Hill's Board members" when you (aka the "Knox Hill Neighborhood Association" announced that "the Historic Chas Winkler House, located at 1855 Knox Street will be saved from the city wrecking ball." Now, anyone can go to hamiltoncountyauditor.org and look up the owner of 1855 Knox Street as a Mr. Gregory A. Drake of 417 N. Arsenal Ave., Indianapolis. If you look up that address, you'll see it is the same house that you described as "our Indy house" and "The Willows" that "we bought". Gregory A. Drake is your partner that live with in the house in "Knox Hill" that you bought for $4250 according to another news story that you pushed into the local media. Furthermore, you have "The Willows" listed as an "available property" on your other website for the ridiculous price of $269,900: https://sites.google.com/site/thevictorianrestorer/availableproperties

 

Through all your lies and deceptions, you continue bash OTR and ride down the city of Cincinnati. If the grass really is greener elsewhere, then go. And until then, refrain from making ludicrous excuses for why you're not interested in OTR like you'd "probably have less exposure." The one thing people cannot accuse OTR of having is too little exposure. Get a clue.

 

Knox Hill is not real. Its neighborhood association is not real.

In response to "RestorationConsultant" - let me first say that I'm just an ordinary guy, albeit an engineer by training, who is rehabbing an 1875 home on Elm st.  (And, no, I'm also not doing exposed brick and ductwork, either.)  It's a complete renovation, saving whatever I can, but suffice it to say that all utilities and finishes are new.  So is the roof and box gutters.  I did the demo and framing, and I've got a general contractor with subs doing all the rest.  It's going to be a great place, with two separate units, one for me and one to rent to my brother.  I'm spending more than $20K alone on tile in three bathrooms.

 

Total cost for this place is about $200K for $3000 sq. ft. of living space plus a full basement.  That's about $67/sq. ft., which is very reasonable.

 

RestorationConsultant talks about "30-50k in additional legal fees, reports and other hoops" -- it that's true, then he's doing things in a pretty strange way.  I paid $5000 for my architect and less than $1000 for permits.  Sure, I didn't like the permit process, and we had to jump through some hoops.  For instance, they made me increase the height in a hallway on the first floor which was too low, for which I had no choice but to lower that section of the floor.  That cost an extra few thousand, and I was pissed off at first, but you know the house is tons better in the end for it.  I also am no big fan of the current Historic Conservation Board, and know I'm not alone, but you can get through it.

 

My main concern with RestorationConsultant is that he is so excessively negative and presents a biased picture of what it takes to do a renovation on one of these great old homes.  I assume it's a temperament issue - everyone has problems in their job, for example - dealing with bureaucracy - but some people manage to get by quite nicely, while others spend energy flailing about.

 

Bottom line is that if you're an individual or a couple, you don't shy of being dirty, you can use a hammer and a circular saw, you have some extra cash or access to loans, and you like OTR then... sure you should look for a good place that has good bones, hire an architect, dig in for a couple of years and have fun doing it (while living somewhere else).

While I am not going to dignify a particular response, except to say yes one of our board members coughed up 7500 he really couldn't spare to save a building  from being declared a public nuisance and one that most certainly would be lost.  I have volunteered to do the bid specs and restoration plan for it, our neighborhood members/volunteers have been working stripping the vinyl off of it and bids are going out shortly for the steps and concrete work, and several people are already intersted in the house. Feel free to volunteer on any weekend for cleanup, we are happy to accept help from anyone wanting to make our neighborhood a better place. So it looks like it will be a preservation "win" in a few months. Something I think we all agree we need more of. Preservationists like Mr Drake should be applauded for putting their own money where their mouth is. Since you chose to not identify yourself we must assume you probably have never done the same. BTW Ms. May contacted me regarding a story she is doing on Fairmount and my opinion on the impact of the MSD project. She read about the C Winkler project and I sent her a Press release. She chose to put it on the Cincy Biz Blog because it is news.

 

As for Mike Morgan, he and I have discussed his lawsuit at length. In fact he emailed me the Writ of Mandamus. He and I attended a meeting jointly recently to meet with one of the new city councilman to discuss preservation issues and the redtape and roadblocks we see in the city. He and I both agree that city governments is severly broken. So if you know Mr Morgan so well, (Whomever you are) I suggest you ask him.  BTW Mike's case against the city is a matter of public record (since you like to look things up I will make it easy for you) CASE NO. A 1108066 Morgan v. City of Cincinnati, filed in court of common pleas. Mike has seen the work we are doing in Knox Hill first hand as he has actually been to my neighborhood, have you?

 

Most people would hardly consider me a "faux preservationist". The work we are doing speaks for itself. I have been a guest lecturer for the West side Preservation summit, have participated as a speaker for the CPA preservation series at the Hauck house. We have held meetings in Knox Hill with a state congresman to discuss community issues. I also publish a couple of Preservation Blogs that tout Cincinnati's incredible architecture. I have donated hundreds of hours to local preservation causes, and evaluated endangered property for people at no charge.  People who know me , know I don't back down from preservation battles.

 

As for OTR. I regularly recommend it , in fact, I sent someone recently to  Cathy Frank at Comey and Sheperd and they are closing on a house there. I routinely mention west end/dayton street and on my Blog and the Preservation Bargains series I have promoted OTR property, the last one which sold because of our promoting it because the realtor contacted me and personally thanked me.

 

If you would like to see Knox Hill come by I am more than happy (whomever you are) to give you a tour, introduce you to some of our residents and board members, one of which has live in the neighborhood for 22 years,and association members. Anyone who really knows me ,knows I support OTR. However to pretend there are not problems we need to address and make effective changes in city policy, is not operating with a degree of common sense. Perhaps you should direct all that negative energy to preservation? Maybe you would like to attend our "non neighborhood" Home Tour May 19th?

 

Now if anyone would like to discuss real issues as they pertain to OTR and its changing perception lets have a conversation.

 

There is a reason why OTR is behind Louisville and Indy in downtown rebirth. It's the redtape. Many out of state people come to OTR and come from envirionments where city government works. Unless you know how other cities operate, you really have no idea how badly this city is run .

 

 

How on earth in downtown Cincinnati behind Indianapolis and Louisville's cores?  Downtown Indy is a big chain downtown that doesn't even touch what Cincinnati has on a historic element.  Indianapolis is also ravaged by surface parking lots, and Louisville isn't too far behind.  Maybe a P.F Chang's is great for what Downtown Indy is looking for, but I would rather see the diversity that OTR brings versus what Indianapolis brings to the table.  Sorry, but the last thing I want for Cincinnati, or for Cincinnati to follow, is the city of Indianapolis.

How on earth in downtown Cincinnati behind Indianapolis and Louisville's cores?  Downtown Indy is a big chain downtown that doesn't even touch what Cincinnati has on a historic element.  Indianapolis is also ravaged by surface parking lots, and Louisville isn't too far behind.  Maybe a P.F Chang's is great for what Downtown Indy is looking for, but I would rather see the diversity that OTR brings versus what Indianapolis brings to the table.  Sorry, but the last thing I want for Cincinnati, or for Cincinnati to follow, is the city of Indianapolis.

 

I think he's going more for utilization than what's there.  Cincinnati has tons and tons of amazing architecture that is completely underutilized, you go to this amazing space like Court Street Marketplace for instance and look at the tops of the buildings and see empty spaces instead of apartments and all too many empty storefronts whereas Indianapolis has very little interesting architecture, but what's there is fully utilized even if too much of it is Chain stores there still is a vibrant district filled with people and shops.

 

I'm going to add that even though Columbus' downtown itself still needs work, there is an unbroken chain of amazingly vibrant neighborhoods from the Arena District up to Clintonville on High Street that IMO Cincinnati should work to do, but leveraging the basis of what they already have (which IMO is so far beyond Columbus its not even funny) to create something similar with Centered but not exclusive to Vine going from the Banks to Uptown.  Don't get me started on how advanced Chicago is in this department, some 20 years ago Chicago was where Cincinnati is at now to give you an idea from what I've discussed with a friend of mine that went to undergrad at DAAP and grew up in Chicago and currently lives here.

 

I took a tour offered by an older urban pioneer on Victorian architecture in San Francisco, and its probably 30 years ahead of Cincy in terms of revitalization.  I'm using these bigger cities because they have the architectural and historic assets that Cincy does (abet more of them), where as Indianapolis and Columbus should be "me too" type places not Cincy.  Something has to be up that has prevented Cincy from getting to the level these other places in terms of utilizing its assets.

No denying that Cincinnati has both cities beat hands down on architecture. I dont know when the last time you were in indy was, but there is little surface parking left, its all been replaced with luxury condos and homes. Cincinnati , the city, is still losing population down 30,000 according to 2010 census, Indy gained  population downtown substancially. As for restauarnts Indy has a ton of small independent eateries. Fountain square and Mass avenue has plenty of choices.No denying a totally different type of city as indy is not as old as Louisville or Cincinnati. Cincinnati has much more an east coast feel architecturally. Thats why we chose Cincinnati. You can't buy great architecture in Indy anymore it is cost prohibive for most people and most of it has been restored over the last 10 years..

 

Actually, I have always said, that OTR would make a great destination based on heritage tourism , like Charleston, New Orleans or Savannah.

 

Findlay Market is a perfect example, high traffic count great 'tourism based industry. Yes locals patronize it but it survives largely because people from elsehere come to it. It is a destination. If the retail mix around it can be developed to  include more restaurants,and retail, it would be a very great neighborhood. Unfortunately it dies at night. Of course now that the church is leaving a huge block on Elm is open to development. The acquisition costs are reasonable, about 40-50K per building, the restoration costs will be substancial because the church basically bought them and held them and there is a lot of 'defferred maintenance'.

 

If you can get more mixed retail/residential down there the dynamic will dramatically change. It will take a while to get the development broadly based to 'connect' Findlay with the main street development.  I do think those linkages between the retail areas will be key from a planning standpoint.

No denying that Cincinnati has both cities beat hands down on architecture. I dont know when the last time you were in indy was, but there is little surface parking left, its all been replaced with luxury condos and homes. Cincinnati , the city, is still losing population down 30,000 according to 2010 census, Indy gained  population downtown substancially. As for restauarnts Indy has a ton of small independent eateries. Fountain square and Mass avenue has plenty of choices.No denying a totally different type of city as indy is not as old as Louisville or Cincinnati. Cincinnati has much more an east coast feel architecturally. Thats why we chose Cincinnati. You can't buy great architecture in Indy anymore it is cost prohibive for most people and most of it has been restored over the last 10 years..

 

Actually, I have always said, that OTR would make a great destination based on heritage tourism , like Charleston, New Orleans or Savannah.

 

Findlay Market is a perfect example, high traffic count great 'tourism based industry. Yes locals patronize it but it survives largely because people from elsehere come to it. It is a destination. If the retail mix around it can be developed to  include more restaurants,and retail, it would be a very great neighborhood. Unfortunately it dies at night. Of course now that the church is leaving a huge block on Elm is open to development. The acquisition costs are reasonable, about 40-50K per building, the restoration costs will be substancial because the church basically bought them and held them and there is a lot of 'defferred maintenance'.

 

If you can get more mixed retail/residential down there the dynamic will dramatically change. It will take a while to get the development broadly based to 'connect' Findlay with the main street development.  I do think those linkages between the retail areas will be key from a planning standpoint.

 

I was in Indianapolis in 2011, are you kidding me on the surface parking?  I guess that is what Indianapolis can settle for and call it a day and say that is very little surface parking left.  There is still plenty, especially in the NW, SW, and eastern portions of downtown. 

 

As far as population growth goes, let's have Cincinnati annex 361 square miles.  Cincinnati is still a much more densely populated city even with 296,000 people versus over 800,000. 

 

Just like Over The Rhine, Indianapolis has Mass Avenue right on the fringes of downtown.  Mass Avenue has nothing on Over The Rhine.  It's a nice street with great views looking down towards downtown, nothing to write home about.

 

On that note, Cincinnati has much more impressive developments that what the majority of Indy is building tends to draw towards the sports crowd or convention scene.  I have had a good time in Broad Ripple, some 4 miles away from downtown Indianapolis, and that still wasn't that impressive.  The majority of Indy is wood framed houses that really have little to be desired.  In a few years a streetcar will be going up and down on the streets of Over The Rhine and hundreds to thousands of new residents will call the neighborhood home.  All I am saying is I don't want Cincinnati to even look to Indianapolis on what they would want to do.  Indianapolis is far from city anyone should look at to build a dynamic city, in which Cincinnati is.  I want Cincinnati to build off of its past and build a bright future.  There are plenty of things that I would like to see Cincinnati do differently, but it is definitely moving in the right direction in which few cities across the country are going in.  I am also tired of Cincinnati being compared to Indianapolis, and then you lead into your typical Cincinnati doesn't do this while Indy does this stuff.  Indianapolis and Cincinnati have nothing in common outside of the fact Cincinnati is right down the interstate from Indianapolis.  Compare Cincy to Louisville, or better yet, St. Louis.  The Cincy and Indy thing is pretty old.  That's why I am interested in why Indianapolis was even discussed  in a thread that is talking about Over The Rhine.

Even Cincinnati - St. Louis isn't the best comparison.  St. Louis grew to a *much* larger size than Cincinnati in the late 1800s, but has taken a very steep fall.  It does not have a very nice downtown and its overall layout is boring.  There is so much old stuff there's no way to know where to begin rehabbing it, unlike Cincinnati's neighborhoods, which tend to have definitive boundaries.

 

 

 

 

How on earth in downtown Cincinnati behind Indianapolis and Louisville's cores?

 

 

I think I've posted a bit here on how the "OTR-esque" neighborhoods surrounding whats left of downtown Louisville where wiped out by urban renewal.  In fact the "frame areas" closer in (places equivilant to  Court Street or Main Street south of Central Pkwy) have also been wiped out.

 

Downtown Louisville...which wasn't too dense to start with.... is surrounded by block after block of urban renewal wasteland of parking lots, housing projects, suburbanesque offices, and bland insitutitional uses. 

 

Its as if you surrounded dwtwn Cincy with a "Queesngate", and took it in as far as Walnut and Garfield Place.

There was an interesting article today about the plight of Detroit. Cincinnati follows the detroit model of urban renewal. blight=bulldozer. As we all know half of OTR has been bulldozed over the years. Also the 'blight' of the vacant house has been replaced by the 'bllight' of a vacant lot. Detroit has so much vacant land that no developer will touch and so many of its neighborhoods are now so 'depopulated' that the city is selling vacant lots for 200.00 to adjacient property owners in an attempt to get some property tax revenues coming in. They sent them letters  and you dont even have to go downtown anymore, they will mail the deed to you.

 

I hope we dont make the mistake of so many cities that when some devlopment happens we start tearing historic property down, oh wait, thats just what 3cdc is doing with mercer commons .

 

For OTR to be unique, it needs its historic architecture, unfortunately even in these enlightened times, we are still losing it.

 

 

Kind of a random question, but I do think its relevant --

 

any idea who has more Fortune 500 companies and/or a larger corporate tax base...Indy, STL, or Cincy? Just curious.

Good grief. Your idea of historic preservation involves stenciling ceilings, overstuffing your walls full of insulation, handcrafting your house with antiques and authentic wood paneling, and living in a romantised view of early 20th century architecture - and while that is great and looks nice, not everyone wants to do that.

 

You have continuously railed against those who purchase in Over-the-Rhine, and you continuously rail against 3CDC and good folks who are taking building that were empty, abandoned or on the verge of collapse and rehabilitate them to financially and economically feasible developments. Sure, they may not be authentically 1900 authentic. They may not have wood paneling, gas lighting fixtures, stenciling, replica wallpaper - and instead have exposed ducts, granite countertops, IKEA cabinets and stainless steel appliances, but this is what is affordable, what people desire and is modern and chic.

 

You have no perception on economic and financial difficulties that single person, small company and large company developers have to face to rehabilitate buildings in Over-the-Rhine and elsewhere. You use your single family house, small and in South Fairmont as a case that you are a leading expert on how others should develop. You align yourselves with L. Sipes (aka "Lacey Dresses") and "Sandy Northside" that attempt to defraud legitimate organizations, such as OTR Adopt, and you choose to become a "militant activist" that rile all preservationists - including the Cincinnati Preservation Association, Preservation Ohio and others. You don't realize that no one wants to live in a 1900-era house with 1900-era furnishings, 1900-era stenciling, 1900-era fixtures and 1900-era decor, and that not everyone supports your romanticized view of how Over-the-Rhine should be. You go as far as to threaten lawsuits against companies and individuals, claim false truths on your blog, and then falsely blame 3CDC for tearing down historic properties en mass.

 

You don't realize that Mercer Commons is the largest development project in Over-the-Rhine that is ongoing right now (in terms of residential and commercial units), and that a large component of it is the addition of the parking structure. The loss of two historic buildings outweighs the preservation of many more, especially when Mercer Commons will allow the development of much of Over-the-Rhine up to Liberty Street and eastward along Walnut Street. You don't grasp the big picture, and instead nitpick over if 3CDC completed a Section 107 review. Why don't you show up at more of the public hearings and meetings? Why don't you become more involved in community development efforts? Why don't you bother finding out what goes on behind the scenes in larger, more complicated situations and scenarios rather than dragging up your one house bit project?

 

You bash Cincinnati, yet you praise Indianapolis. Nothing wrong with that - each city has its ups and downs. But this isn't the forum to do this on.

 

By the way, Indianapolis has a TON of surface lots: http://g.co/maps/ett9s, http://g.co/maps/39et8, http://g.co/maps/2whvs. Don't go nitpicking on Cincinnati for what other cities ail from as well.

BTW, very correct about Findlay Market as being a destination, but suprised that its a tourist thing.  I always thought it was more locals using it.

 

Good call on OTR as heritage tourism.  I mentioned upthread there is a new guidebook out on OTRs German heritage.  This would be an example of a sourcebook if one wanted to feature OTR as a place related to German-American heritage.

DT Indy lost population in every sector except the NE sector where Mass Ave is.  And even then the growth was minimal.  DT Indy still has a TON of surface lots with very few infill projects going on.  There has been one project built in the last 5 years that has any density - 3 Mass.  And I believe Trailside is being built now.  But everything else that has been built down there is suburban townhome type development with no density.  Within the mile square there is still quite a bit of surface lots as well.  Even Mass Ave still has a number of surface lots.  I honestly think you are living in some sort of fantasy world when it comes to Indy.  Their model of urbanism is akin to most southern cities and has nothing in comparison to Cincy's urban areas.

 

My friend just bought a beautiful restored home in St. Clair Place, about 1.5 miles east of downtown Indy - for a very very reasonable price.  That area is just now starting to see some investment so there is still a lot of room to grow.  Indy's core is surrounded by wood frame single family housing and to the NW of the city there is still a ton of opportunity for redevelopment; certainly that area has not even begun to gentrify.  And Fountain Square is very hit or miss.  There are a few nice streets, but most of the area is still kind of rough/weird. 

 

Indy does well in terms of providing a downtown for conentioneers and visitors, but having lived there for 2 years, I can say it has low quality of life for residents due to it being built for the out-of-towner (thus the reason for all of the chain restaurants and stores).  Thank God O'Malia's was there or I wouldn't have lasted a minute down there.   

 

 

Findlay Market is a destination for locals, especially recently with all the spaces occupied. If by 'tourists,' he meant those from parts of Cincinnati farther out, sure. But it is far more locally supported that he gives it credit.

Thank you Sherman! Good post.

Atlas is right.

 

Urban Cincy had 6 census tracts with growth. 

 

2 downtown. 2 OTR. Newport & Covington.

 

Urban Indy had....1. The rest were all losses.

 

And while census tracts alone aren't the exact same size, comparing the maps of the two shows much more growth in Cincy's urban core.

 

You have to be lying to argue otherwise.

 

There was an interesting article today about the plight of Detroit. Cincinnati follows the detroit model of urban renewal. blight=bulldozer. As we all know half of OTR has been bulldozed over the years. Also the 'blight' of the vacant house has been replaced by the 'bllight' of a vacant lot. Detroit has so much vacant land that no developer will touch and so many of its neighborhoods are now so 'depopulated' that the city is selling vacant lots for 200.00 to adjacient property owners in an attempt to get some property tax revenues coming in...

 

I hope we dont make the mistake of so many cities that when some devlopment happens we start tearing historic property down, oh wait, thats just what 3cdc is doing with mercer commons

 

The better parallel is with Dayton where they really are trying to tear down a lot of the city and the local city-wide preservation group is on its last legs (Ive been told).  That is the place that is going down the tubes when it comes to demolitions and abandoment and loss of urban fabric.

 

I think whats going on in the Gateway Quarter part of OTR is pretty much selective demo and some pretty good infill, too.  Outer parts of OTR are still under threat, IMO....places like Brighton Corner, Mohawk, areas west of Central Pkwy, areas N of Liberty, areas along McMicken, areas in vicinity of Findlay Market.  Ive seen stuff come down in these area in the short time Ive been walking OTR.

 

 

    No not out of the woods and the survival of the urban fabric in these areas is of concern..yes..

 

....but I think enough is left in the Gateway Quarter for infill to still really be infill.  That will be a save.  Maybe Pendleton, too (since that place is remarkbly dense still!). 

 

 

 

 

Folks, let's cut it with the Indianapolis bashing and stick with Over-the-Rhine.

Folks, let's cut it with the Indianapolis bashing and stick with Over-the-Rhine.

You want us to bash OTR?

LOL!  Oy!

According to the Finday market site :

 

An estimated 881,409 shopping visits were made to Findlay Market in 2011.

Shoppers spent an estimated $30 million at Findlay Market during 2011 .

 

While there is no denying Findlay gets a lot of OTR support but the facts are that the majority of its business drives there from area outside of OTR. I know when I go there (I often do) I see a lot of out of state plates in the parking lot.

 

Because of the lack of development around it they usually walk to the end of the market look up and down the street and get back to their cars. I think they 'want' to explore but they are just not there yet.

 

That is markedly different than in Charleston SC where its market is part of the overall mix of the neighborhood and its Heritage tourism. The goal, I think is how to get those people beyond their comfort zone to explore the neighborhood. Ive watched people circle endlessly to find parking in the 'safe' zone of the parking lots. I think its getting better but those "perceptions" are there and they must be overcome for OTR to be sucessful in the long term.

 

Perhaps some weekend short guided walking tours would help Sherman, maybe you could do photogaphy type tours of the architecture?

 

BTW Shermam, I have clients right now with projects in OTR and West End. I absolutely stand by my position that demolition of property for Mercer Commons was a bad decision and set a bad precident. That is also a view shared by many at CPA and many in OTR. I am also not defending Indianapolis, we decided to come to Cincinnati from Indy because there is a bright future here for our business. As fo decor you be surprised how many 'Ikea lofts' I was called into to add walls molding and character back into , because as you know HGTV lofts are so overdone in Indy, you can't give them away anymore. I think right now over 150 priced from 200-400K. This is similar to may other cities that latch on to trends and get overbuilt with trendy design of the moment. Trends come and go but timeless design is timeless, which is why I have a waiting list of clients for period design work across the country right now, so apparently I am not the only person who appreciates period design, but you would be suprised  to learn our house is also going to have a home theatre, wine cellar. A kitchen with modern appliances and state of the art mechanical systems, a two car carriage house, rain water collection systems with some solar systems. I have no problem blending new with old.

 

^what does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread?

 

....but I think enough is left in the Gateway Quarter for infill to still really be infill.  That will be a save.  Maybe Pendleton, too (since that place is remarkbly dense still!). 

 

Pendleton's density is remarkable. The vistas and streetscapes that one can see there are really striking.

There is a reason why OTR is behind Louisville and Indy in downtown rebirth. It's the redtape. Many out of state people come to OTR and come from envirionments where city government works. Unless you know how other cities operate, you really have no idea how badly this city is run .

 

Cincinnati and Hamilton County are ran poorly, but not for the reasons you outline.  These fit the bill much more snugly:

 

 

-Antequated tax code.

 

-Outdated arena.  The city misses out on several million annually that goes to Cleveland.

 

-No dedicated bus lanes.  Inexcusable off the top, but deplorable when you reflect on the lack of rail transit.

 

-No late night buses on weekends.  Cincinnati's nightlife for many is defined by proximity to a certain area, not where they would prefer to go.  Northside, Hyde Park and downtown would be big winners with overnight service.  Perfect for Mt. Adams and its limited parking.

 

There is a reason why OTR is behind Louisville and Indy in downtown rebirth. It's the redtape. Many out of state people come to OTR and come from envirionments where city government works. Unless you know how other cities operate, you really have no idea how badly this city is run .

 

Cincinnati and Hamilton County are ran poorly, but not for the reasons you outline.  These fit the bill much more snugly:

 

 

-Antequated tax code.

 

-Outdated arena.  The city misses out on several million annually that goes to Cleveland.

 

-No dedicated bus lanes.  Inexcusable off the top, but deplorable when you reflect on the lack of rail transit.

 

-No late night buses on weekends.  Cincinnati's nightlife for many is defined by proximity to a certain area, not where they would prefer to go.  Northside, Hyde Park and downtown would be big winners with overnight service.  Perfect for Mt. Adams and its limited parking.

 

Agreed on all points, except maybe the arena. I'm not sure the cost of a new arena would be justified, as there are many cases where new arenas were touted as economic development tools which haven't delivered.

 

The night buses are very important, IMO. For many, as you state, nightlife is defined by proximity. To perhaps more Cincinnatians, it's defined by drunk driving.

Night buses can't be added without a ballot issue that would raise the earnings tax.  We almost certainly would have had them if metro moves had passed.

Agreed on all points, except maybe the arena. I'm not sure the cost of a new arena would be justified, as there are many cases where new arenas were touted as economic development tools which haven't delivered.

 

 

 

As we drift farther and farther off topic, your comment made me wonder: Would either national political party ever choose Cincinnati to host their national convention? If not, what can the city do to attract such large conventions?

I would think it's certainly possible, especially because conventions seem to be viewed more as a campaign tool these days.  Looking at past conventions, there has been a move away from traditional big destinations (California, Madision Square Garden in NYC, Boston, etc.) to venues where the parties think they can impact voters by having the convention there:

 

Democratic Convention

 

2008 - Denver

2012 - Charlotte

 

Republican Convention

 

2008 - Minneapolis/St. Paul

2012 - Tampa 

 

It looks like it now helps to be a swing state or a state that the parties would like to be in play for the election.  I would think that helps any Ohio city's chances of trying to get a convention.  (Didn't Cleveland make a big push for the Democratic convention for this year?)

 

It looks like it now helps to be a swing state or a state that the parties would like to be in play for the election.  I would think that helps any Ohio city's chances of trying to get a convention.  (Didn't Cleveland make a big push for the Democratic convention for this year?)

 

But logistically, does Cincinnati have a facility/facilities that can compete with other those of cities?

Sure.  They have a football stadium and an arena downtown, plus the convention center.  When the Democrats were in Denver, they used the Broncos stadium for the big acceptance speech and the Pepsi Center (I think) for other events.  I believe they are doing a similar combination in Charlotte--Panthers stadium and Bobcats' arena. 

I was looking at various apartment listings on Craig's List the other day. I came across one listing in Clifton that said something like, "This apartment is more expensive than OTR, but that neighborhood is terrible and scary." it just infuriates me how many statements like that I hear from people who don't have the slightest clue.

 

On the bright side, there were several listings in Clifton Heights that listed "close to OTR" as a big selling point.

Over the Rhine is getting safer

By Ann Thompson

3/19/2012 3:20:25 PM

 

Cincinnati police are seeing a dramatic drop in homicides in Over the Rhine. Today the Chief listed possible reasons and described what police are doing next.

 

In a media news briefing Chief James Craig reported a 100-percent drop in Over the Rhine murders. He says nobody has been killed there since September.

 

Since then Craig has put more officers in the field, worked with neighborhood groups, targeted the most violent offenders and took them off the streets, and has involved the department in youth mentoring.

 

He's confident the decline in Over the Rhine crime will continue, and cites a 40-percent drop in murders citywide.

 

http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=9877

I was looking at various apartment listings on Craig's List the other day. I came across one listing in Clifton that said something like, "This apartment is more expensive than OTR, but that neighborhood is terrible and scary." it just infuriates me how many statements like that I hear from people who don't have the slightest clue.

 

On the bright side, there were several listings in Clifton Heights that listed "close to OTR" as a big selling point.

 

Unfortunately, OTR is still terrible and scary.

 

-Vacants, including an outrageous number of fire hazards

-An addict's Eden for 50 years

-A saturation of social services

-Hardly any jobs

-Monochromatic demographic that's slowly diluting

-Filth

-Very high crime

-A culture of being the Land of the Lost

 

The most dense area in the City is the farthest from self-sustainability.  It's an awful neighborhood with some good people giving it the 'ol college try.  That's where we are.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, OTR is still terrible and scary.

 

-Vacants, including an outrageous number of fire hazards

-An addict's Eden for 50 years

-A saturation of social services

-Hardly any jobs

-Monochromatic demographic that's slowly diluting

-Filth

-Very high crime

-A culture of being the Land of the Lost

 

The most dense area in the City is the farthest from self-sustainability.  It's an awful neighborhood with some good people giving it the 'ol college try.  That's where we are.

 

WHAT!? 

 

OTR is not perfect, but South of Liberty it is just as strong, if not stronger than most neighborhoods. 

 

Several hundred million dollars has been invested in OTR in 5 years. 

You can walk around at any time of night. 

Crime is highly confined to a specific group of people and it rarely has a direct effect on the newer residents.

There are 60,000 jobs on the other side of Central Parkway.

 

 

Do you go to OTR often?  It's not perfect, but it's definitely becoming a strong sustainable neighborhood and is far from being an awful neighborhood with people giving it the "college try".

 

City Blights, when was the last time you were at 12th and Vine? or 13th and vine?  or 14th and Vine? or 12th and Main?

 

I was looking at various apartment listings on Craig's List the other day. I came across one listing in Clifton that said something like, "This apartment is more expensive than OTR, but that neighborhood is terrible and scary." it just infuriates me how many statements like that I hear from people who don't have the slightest clue.

 

On the bright side, there were several listings in Clifton Heights that listed "close to OTR" as a big selling point.

 

Unfortunately, OTR is still terrible and scary.

 

-Vacants, including an outrageous number of fire hazards

-An addict's Eden for 50 years

-A saturation of social services

-Hardly any jobs

-Monochromatic demographic that's slowly diluting

-Filth

-Very high crime

-A culture of being the Land of the Lost

 

The most dense area in the City is the farthest from self-sustainability.  It's an awful neighborhood with some good people giving it the 'ol college try.  That's where we are.

 

 

I just walked home to OTR from my job on 4th street.  I've lived here for over a year now.  My experience is so different from what you've just listed there that, quite frankly, I can't think of your comment as anything but laughable. 

I was looking at various apartment listings on Craig's List the other day. I came across one listing in Clifton that said something like, "This apartment is more expensive than OTR, but that neighborhood is terrible and scary." it just infuriates me how many statements like that I hear from people who don't have the slightest clue.

 

On the bright side, there were several listings in Clifton Heights that listed "close to OTR" as a big selling point.

 

Unfortunately, OTR is still terrible and scary.

 

-Vacants, including an outrageous number of fire hazards

-An addict's Eden for 50 years

-A saturation of social services

-Hardly any jobs

-Monochromatic demographic that's slowly diluting

-Filth

-Very high crime

-A culture of being the Land of the Lost

 

The most dense area in the City is the farthest from self-sustainability.  It's an awful neighborhood with some good people giving it the 'ol college try.  That's where we are.

 

 

I just walked home to OTR from my job on 4th street.  I've lived here for over a year now.  My experience is so different from what you've just listed there that, quite frankly, I can't think of your comment as anything but laughable. 

 

As a fellow resident, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this..

^ As a fellow resident, I also felt the same way. On the other hand I just drove up Vine St. to grab some Currito and I was reminded that there is still a long way to go north of Liberty.

If anyone needs a reminder as to how all of OTR used to be, go over to Lower Price Hill and walk around with a camera.  Tons of people loitering about, shouting, cars pulling up dramatically, etc. 

I was looking at various apartment listings on Craig's List the other day. I came across one listing in Clifton that said something like, "This apartment is more expensive than OTR, but that neighborhood is terrible and scary." it just infuriates me how many statements like that I hear from people who don't have the slightest clue.

 

On the bright side, there were several listings in Clifton Heights that listed "close to OTR" as a big selling point.

 

Unfortunately, OTR is still terrible and scary.

 

-Vacants, including an outrageous number of fire hazards

-An addict's Eden for 50 years

-A saturation of social services

-Hardly any jobs

-Monochromatic demographic that's slowly diluting

-Filth

-Very high crime

-A culture of being the Land of the Lost

 

The most dense area in the City is the farthest from self-sustainability.  It's an awful neighborhood with some good people giving it the 'ol college try.  That's where we are.

 

 

 

Saturation of social services is decreasing. Abandoned buildings and "filth" are decreasing. Crime is decreasing. "Hardly any jobs" doesn't take into account that fact that OTR is between Downtown and Uptown, making it perfect for people who work or go to school in those locations.

 

You're trying to make it sound like OTR is an unlivable neighborhood. I my time living in OTR, crime, "filth", the homeless population, and changing demographics never caused me any problems.

 

If you find OTR "terrible and scary", you're probably hanging out in abandoned buildings on the northern or western fringes of the neighborhood.

Seconding everything everyone other than CityBlights said.

 

Hell, I feel safer walking all around Vine north of liberty over to Elm and mcmicken than I do walking around Lower Price Hill, Roselawn, the West End or walnut hills. Ive just spent so much time there I know no one is gonna bother me- I recognize the people hanging out. Etc.

 

I honestly dont think city blights has been to OTR in several years.

I was in Cincinnati this past summer and the progress on Main is remarkable.  Walnut?  Looked like the new Vine.

 

I´ve likely spent more time in OTR than half the people disagreeing with me, during this transition period AND the bad old days.  Reality is often a hard pill to swallow, doesn´t mean you can´t take it like an adult.  If the best you can come up with is that the fringe areas of a micro-neighborhood fit the description I laid out there, then you just validated everything I said about the state of OTR.  It seems in Cincinnati that there are those that take a blind eye in the spirit of optimism, those who stay blind to possibilities (Enquirer crowd) and very little middle ground.  I´m a middle ground, case-by-case kind of guy.  OTR is still largely a charity case. Be honest with yourself.

 

For the people telling me how strong and self sustainable OTR is, did you grow up within 3 miles of downtown, or are you a newcomer to the core?

 

The majority of those jobs uptown and downtown are going to college grads and people sweeping floors, that´s not exactly middle ground either.  Most of downtown´s workers don´t live within 3 miles of downtown, neither does UC´s employee base.  OTR and surrounding areas hasn´t had jobs for the people previously forced to live in such a complicated environment in decades.  At this point only people that move to OTR with degrees have the resources to enjoy OTR as a resident.  That does not qualify as self-sustaining or healthy.  3CDC had to buy up the bottom of Vine just to jumpstart the momentum that was put to a standstill by the riots.  OTR has needed every bit of outside influence it could get in the last four years, including a FEMA stimulus.

Quite honestly, I don't care what you have to say about the past.  You were making statements about the situation today, not ten or five years ago.  And your statements about today in OTR--south of Liberty--are flat wrong.  I walk home on Walnut about 3 nights a week, and I know what Vine was like ten years ago.  There's no comparison. 

 

It's also telling that you consider yourself one of the "middle ground" but then resort to the old canard of "where did you grow up" and "have you lived in Cincinnati as long as I have."  Those are generally the things I hear from the people who "stay blind to the possibilities (Enquirer crowd)."  Saying that you are part of  some "middle approach" doesn't make it so. 

Quite honestly, I don't care what you have to say about the past.  You were making statements about the situation today, not ten or five years ago.  And your statements about today in OTR--south of Liberty--are flat wrong.  I walk home on Walnut about 3 nights a week, and I know what Vine was like ten years ago.  There's no comparison. 

 

It's also telling that you consider yourself one of the "middle ground" but then resort to the old canard of "where did you grow up" and "have you lived in Cincinnati as long as I have."  Those are generally the things I hear from the people who "stay blind to the possibilities (Enquirer crowd)."  Saying that you are part of  some "middle approach" doesn't make it so. 

 

More time must pass before we declare OTR safe.  More progress must be made before we declare OTR a healthy environment that provides opportunity for people of all backgrounds.  The past is a series of factual events by definition.  You can't discount it or close your eyes and pretend that OTR looks the way it's depicted on the front of a Christian Moerlein lager.  Embracing facts is a novel concept, don't shy away from it.

Quite honestly, I don't care what you have to say about the past.  You were making statements about the situation today, not ten or five years ago.  And your statements about today in OTR--south of Liberty--are flat wrong.  I walk home on Walnut about 3 nights a week, and I know what Vine was like ten years ago.  There's no comparison. 

 

It's also telling that you consider yourself one of the "middle ground" but then resort to the old canard of "where did you grow up" and "have you lived in Cincinnati as long as I have."  Those are generally the things I hear from the people who "stay blind to the possibilities (Enquirer crowd)."  Saying that you are part of  some "middle approach" doesn't make it so. 

 

And yes, I don't appreciate people trying to tell me what I do and don't know about Cincinnati seeing how I've did more for people who were forced to slum it than people who now choose to.  Because you've taken an interest in OTR in the last five years does not make you an expert on the City of Cincinnati, and not living there anymore does not make you oblivious to its status.