That's absolutely nuts. OTR is still so early in its redevelopment. I only shudder to think what condos will be going for in the next 10-15 years. Especially on the hillside with views of Otr and Cincy. I imagine 5-10 million dollar condos isn't to far fetched in the future.

That's absolutely nuts. OTR is still so early in its redevelopment. I only shudder to think what condos will be going for in the next 10-15 years. Especially on the hillside with views of Otr and Cincy. I imagine 5-10 million dollar condos isn't to far fetched in the future.

 

I think that's pretty far fetched. Our metro region just doesn't have that kind of money.

Yeah there is hardly such thing as a $5 million house in Cincinnati.  There are a ton of $800k+ homes going up in the east end and Mt. Adams right now. 

 

I am not an expert but you run across "rules of thumb" like how lots should be approximately 20% of the cost of a new-build house.  So the lot value of a $500k house would be $100k and the lot value of a $1 million home would be $200k.  Someone who owns a lot and doesn't need the money right now might be wise to hold out for five years as they might be able to get $150k or higher as the number of lots dwindles to single digits.   

That may be true. I'm just looking from the perspective of a condo going for 1.2 million in otr in a neighborhood that's still filled with blight, open air drug dealing (especially bad on republic), and murders (more at north of liberty).

 

It's still a crime ridden place that's not at it's full potential that otr is capable of being in 10-15 years.

 

I'm just curious where we will see the prices topping out at, because a family purchasing a 1.2 mill condo in otr when they can buy a Mansion in Indian hill/Montgomery with a pool, a guest house and a 4 car garage leaves me baffled.

Houses over $5 million in Ohio tend to be owned by eccentrics and finished in ways only that person likes. They also have things a lot of people aren't willing to pay for such as indoor Olympic pools.

I'm just curious where we will see the prices topping out at, because a family purchasing a 1.2 mill condo in otr when they can buy a Mansion in Indian hill/Montgomery with a pool, a guest house and a 4 car garage leaves me baffled.

 

This is a large 4-bedroom house, not a condo.

 

 

Houses over $5 million in Ohio tend to be owned by eccentrics and finished in ways only that person likes. They also have things a lot of people aren't willing to pay for such as indoor Olympic pools.

 

It's amazing how just plain funny circa-2005 McMansions are looking in listings these days.  Tastes have shifted completely to Ikea and all that stuff from the mid-2000s still faintly insinuates Cracker Barrel.  Wicker baskets and hummels and maybe a tacky crucifix near the hallway thermostat. 

I'm just looking from the perspective of a condo going for 1.2 million in otr in a neighborhood that's still filled with blight, open air drug dealing (especially bad on republic), and murders (more at north of liberty).

To be accurate, the $1.2M is for a 4 bed, 4 bath, 4 story single family home. It's a big home.

 

And as for the open air drug dealing, it's a full 1.5 blocks away - a light year by OTR standards. I do appreciate, though, you referring to simply "blight", as opposed to "urban blight" or even "inner city blight". That was nice.

 

Seriously the only thing that might scare me more than living in OTR right now, is the thought I might wake up someday and find myself waving to neighbors as I cut my lawn.

What's the square footage for the house?

 

I'm not trying to rag on this. It's great news for otr and means development will only continue at its rapid pace.

 

That said, even though OTR has improved, there is no denying that the crime element still exists.

 

I think that it's say more about OTR than anything else. It's a beautiful neighborhood with theaters, restaurants and bars right at people's door steps. It's a no brainer why people would want to live in otr.

 

But the high crime in my eyes is still a large obstacle. It's got so much better, I'm not denying that. But when your still encountering murders and gun shots just blocks on liberty st from your 1.2 million dollar condo....it just seems a bit baffling in my eyes at least.

What's the square footage for the house?

I can't seem to see that from MLS. But my guess is > 4000 sq. ft. plus it has a basement (and garage, of course).

But when your still encountering murders and gun shots just blocks on liberty st from your 1.2 million dollar condo....it just seems a bit baffling in my eyes at least.

Sure, I understand. But I think you also understand that its a big world out there. I mean, we even have Trump voters.

I'm just looking from the perspective of a condo going for 1.2 million in otr in a neighborhood that's still filled with blight, open air drug dealing (especially bad on republic), and murders (more at north of liberty).

To be accurate, the $1.2M is for a 4 bed, 4 bath, 4 story single family home. It's a big home.

 

Actually it is now being built as 5 stories, 7 bedrooms, 2 car garage ±8,000 gross SF single family.

$1.2 million house is pending on Fifteenth St.:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1482014/218-A-W-Fifteenth-St-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

Looks like almost all of the new houses built in 2016 and early 2017 on Elm or between Elm and Central Parkway are pending or sold.  Only about 3 of about 18 new single-family homes remain on the market.  Meanwhile, 3CDC's turds on Mercer remain unsold after a year. 

 

What's up with the super creepy photos in that listing? They took a bunch of pictures at Washington Park and then pixelated out all the people.

A new Instagram account has popped up called "vinestreetotr". The description is "Cincinnati's luxury, shopping, design and dining district located on #VineStreet in the heard of Over-the-Rhine." I'm not sure who's running this account but if it's 3CDC or the OTR Chamber, I'm surprised that they used the word "luxury" in that description.

 

 

What's up with the super creepy photos in that listing? They took a bunch of pictures at Washington Park and then pixelated out all the people.

 

 

Looks like magnified stills taken from the Zapruder Film. 

 

Makes me more afraid of photo 3. Why aren't they blurred to 2dpi?

 

There was an earlier plan, circa-2010, that was going to preserve and redevelop the buildings (predates this thread).  I know because I am friends with someone who worked on it who quit in disgust when the decision was made to fire up the bulldozers. 

 

What the heck is so culturally broken about Cincinnati that makes them think bulldozing buildings like that is an acceptable solution?  As I keep saying, this was one of the best historic districts in the city, only in need of a bit of TLC.

 

Also, keep this in mind regarding Covington's downtown, where originally all historic buildings at madison and pike were going to be kept, but by the virtue of some backroom deal several of them are going to be torn down, and that district is in way better shape than WH ever was!  I'm serious you guys have a serious problem here that needs to be addressed.

Its a catch 22. You have old buildings that can be redeveloped, or you can demolish them for high density units.

 

Also people need to care. It's why otr and it's buildings are generally better preserved nowadays than elsewhere in Cincinnati. People see every building there as something special that represents the identity of the neighborhood and it's history.

 

Anywhere else it's just considered an old deliptated useless, ugly, building. Look at the Dennison dibocale. If the Dennison was on the main st portion of otr it would have been a public outcry.

 

It's weird if you ask me. I've never seen such a isolated bubble for preservation like that in any other city

Its a catch 22. You have old buildings that can be redeveloped, or you can demolish them for high density units.

 

Also people need to care. It's why otr and it's buildings are generally better preserved nowadays than elsewhere in Cincinnati. People see every building there as something special that represents the identity of the neighborhood and it's history.

 

Anywhere else it's just considered an old deliptated useless, ugly, building. Look at the Dennison dibocale. If the Dennison was on the main st portion of otr it would have been a public outcry.

 

It's weird if you ask me. I've never seen such a isolated bubble for preservation like that in any other city

 

That isolated bubble is very much a new thing.  It also speaks to just how tribal every neighborhood is in Cincinnati, without really having a common goal.  One of many thing that angers me about Cranley is how he stokes the fires of this nasty form of parochialism.

I agree cranley has not been a positive influence what so ever.

 

But it's deeper than that. We have a different outlook on preservation and historic buildings. That's why we conrogate to this site. It's our passion.

 

That said, the VAST majority of people see old buildings as an illustration of blight and poverty.

 

We are unfortunately not Paris or Madrid or London where the archectiure gob smacks you in the mouth and makes your eyes water with beauty. The vast majority of our old stock is plain, but with special interest, becomes beautiful.

 

It's a nation wide problem. We are not alone. Heck look at what's going on with pike st across the river.

 

We have old buildings, they don't exactly leave you flabbergasted by there beauty, and are normally in poor shape.

 

You basically have to train the average person to love something that isn't inheriently beautiful.

 

Even the Dennison, it was a giant red brick building, that most called ugly and worthy of demolition by non preservationist.

 

Also it doesn't help when you can travel to any 50 states in America and find similar historic architecture everywhere. Even traveling to small towns in Ohio from circleville to Logan, you can find old buildings that look like replicas of any old buildings in Cincinnati.

 

It's a much larger problem besides cranely. It's not like Ohio is its own country and we have our own distinct architecture you can't find anywhere else.

 

There are just to many old buildings across America, making them lose there uniqueness. Add that to the fact most old buildings are in high crime neighborhoods and are typically seen as blight.

 

It's just an abundant of issues honeslty.

 

,

 

 

 

without really having a common goal.

 

 

Cincinnati's common goal is re-illegalizing abortion. 

 

All the old people around town who keep putting these clowns in office can't grasp that all of these politicians from "good Catholic families" (Cranley, Deters, etc.) are robbing them blind.  If you point at them and tell them that they start crying.  I know because I've done it. 

 

 

 

Ha, if they were Protestant they'd have scripture on their business cards like the more transparent slimeballs that can trick hillbillies but not educated people. It's next-level to trick the educated.

Cincinnati's common goal is re-illegalizing abortion. 

 

All the old people around town who keep putting these clowns in office can't grasp that all of these politicians from "good Catholic families" (Cranley, Deters, etc.) are robbing them blind.  If you point at them and tell them that they start crying.  I know because I've done it. 

 

There was a youtube conversation I had where a guy talked about how Cranley was good because he went to theological school, shutdown all other conversations because he's closer to God than the rest of us  :roll:

 

Yeah and critiquing the crummy way Cincinnati does stuff and calling it out does anger people :/.  Its why Cincinnati is the way it is sadly.

What the heck is so culturally broken about Cincinnati that makes them think bulldozing buildings like that is an acceptable solution?

 

Keep in mind that the people on this forum (which includes a lot of architects, urban planners, transit activists, and fans of cities in general) are not representative of the general public. The general public does not care about quality architecture, quality building materials, good urban form, walkability, history of the buildings, etc. Through the rise of suburbia, people have been trained to view housing as only an investment and a box where they live, with no concern given to the aesthetics of the neighborhood as a whole. Of course a lot of people visit Union Terminal or Music Hall or Vine Street and realize that historic architecture is cool and important to our history, but even so, many of those same people will not make the mental connection that we could/should be doing more historic preservation or that new buildings could be built to last rather than being poorly designed and thrown up haphazardly.

 

If you've had the idea that "suburbs are safe and clean, cities are dangerous and dirty" drilled into your head for your entire life, it's nearly impossible to unlearn it. Most of the people who view bulldozing historic buildings as acceptable fall into that category. That's why most of the historic preservation push in Cincinnati in recent years is coming from younger people who never had that idea drilled into their heads.

And it's also tough in Cincinnati specifically since there are few suburban areas that are melted down. People in other cities have had the opportunity to see tons of decaying suburbia.

 

This is the mindset that the older generations grew up with.

 

 

 

I guess what puzzles me is how there are shows all over HGTV and other pop cultural sources that have painted a narrative different than the one Cincinnati is stewing in.  Other cities have latched on to that narrative a lot easier.

Sure, but there have been House Hunters episodes filmed in OTR, too. It's just a small subset of people who are into that kind of thing in this city right now.

^^Your rose-tinted glasses of "other cities" is getting pretty old. There are countless examples of beautiful historic buildings getting torn down in other cities. Unless you are paying close attention, you only see the highlights of cities that preserve things. You only see the absolute worst of things being destroyed. You don't see the day-to-day demolitions that don't reach beyond that region's preservation activists. Cities you don't watch carefully are most likely tearing down historic buildings at similar rates to Cincinnati. It's not some toxic culture the city has that's unique to the rest of the country. Some cities are likely better than Cincinnati (New York and Chicago, I'm sure, are). But similar cities like St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee are probably doing things similarly to us.

 

That's not a defense of what's going on. But it's easy to lob insults at Cincinnati from afar and pretend we just aren't enlightened and we somehow don't get it. It's a failure on multiple levels, and people are working hard to change those failures. Cincinnati is not unique in this fight, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

^^Your rose-tinted glasses of "other cities" is getting pretty old. There are countless examples of beautiful historic buildings getting torn down in other cities. Unless you are paying close attention, you only see the highlights of cities that preserve things. You only see the absolute worst of things being destroyed. You don't see the day-to-day demolitions that don't reach beyond that region's preservation activists. Cities you don't watch carefully are most likely tearing down historic buildings at similar rates to Cincinnati. It's not some toxic culture the city has that's unique to the rest of the country. Some cities are likely better than Cincinnati (New York and Chicago, I'm sure, are). But similar cities like St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee are probably doing things similarly to us.

 

That's not a defense of what's going on. But it's easy to lob insults at Cincinnati from afar and pretend we just aren't enlightened and we somehow don't get it. It's a failure on multiple levels, and people are working hard to change those failures. Cincinnati is not unique in this fight, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

 

And just an FYI, Chicago is notorious for destroying historic properties.  Hell, there was a Curbed article in April about the latest string:

 

https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/4/7/15222008/chicago-historic-housing-stock-demolitions-lincoln-park

Columbus isn't dealing with all this historic demo now... it lost so much by 1980 that there's little left. That's definitely a worse situation.

I just saw the following comment on Facebook for an event that's happening in Washington Park: "Haven't been to the renovated Washington Park yet."

 

Washington Park reopened on July 6, 2012. Nearly five years ago.

 

So when people say in this thread that there are people who live in Cincinnati have haven't been downtown in a decade... they are not exaggerating. There are people living within a 20 minute drive of Downtown who have never seen the dramatic transformation that's happened there over the last decade.

This is the mindset that the older generations grew up with.

 

 

 

 

That's the most depressing video I've ever seen. Mostly because of the narrator's voice. He must have used the word "Poverty" 900 times throughout the video. It's interesting, some of those row house-lined streets of extreme poverty were lined up with what looked like really nice, new cars.

 

What exactly was the point of that video when they made it?  I literally learned nothing from it.

It sounds like it could be Nick Clooney

What exactly was the point of that video when they made it?  I literally learned nothing from it.

 

Propaganda to advocate for the abandonment/demolition of cities and growth of suburbs. Remember, they weren't though of as "historic buildings" then, they were thought of as "slums," "ghettos," or "tenements."

^I think Skipper Ryle is the narrator  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Ryle

What exactly was the point of that video when they made it?  I literally learned nothing from it.

 

Propaganda to advocate for the abandonment/demolition of cities and growth of suburbs. Remember, they weren't though of as "historic buildings" then, they were thought of as "slums," "ghettos," or "tenements."

 

Exactly. It is so over the top with the "blame the buildings" attitude of poverty at the time.

I didn't help that the buildings were an uncool age architecturally. In the U.S., when a building is 40-80 years old it is especially "expendable".

Pretty sure those buildings with porches (at 22:00min) are the ones that used to be up at the top of Sycamore Hill. They would have million dollar lofts in them now if only they were left for a new generation to see potential in. Or if they wouldn't have shamed the neighborhood as a slum that needed to be abandoned maybe they would still have middle class and poor folks living in them like a organically growing city does. 

The narrative of the video is quite toxic, and it had been going on since at least the 1920s.  Not only does it vilify the poor, but the whole focus is on the symptoms of poverty and not the cause, as if somehow the buildings are the problem as JYP mentioned.  While concentration of poverty is a bad thing, so many people to this day still think that just demolishing the ratty houses and apartments will fix everything, but that's not the problem, being poor is.  Also, by the time of the video, decades of institutional neglect and wealth transfer from the core to the periphery had taken its toll.  It's still taking its toll today, but the low-hanging fruit of ramshackle houses have long since perished.  What's left are either vacant lots, which look less offensive but are pernicious in their extent, or the slow relentless decline of even stable neighborhoods.

This is what I was talking about.  These are excerpts from "Civic Science in Home and Community," published in 1923.  It's all about air and light and fresh food and wholesome activities that can only be found in ersatz farmhouses in a romanticized small town setting.

Well now the poor are moving en masse to the 1920s-60s suburbs in Cincinnati and taking all of the social problems with them.  Having a small yard is irrelevant. 

 

Meanwhile, the air quality in the cities has improved dramatically since the EPA was established.  I vividly recall a drive through Gary, Indiana in the early 1980s and remember the air in Cincinnati being much clearer in the late 90s as opposed to the early 90s.  Smog wasn't just in the city but up in the Tri-County area centered around I-75 and I-275.  When you came down the I-275 hill from Winton Rd. toward Rt. 4 the smog cloud was very obvious. 

Well now the poor are moving en masse to the 1920s-60s suburbs in Cincinnati and taking all of the social problems with them.  Having a small yard is irrelevant. 

 

Meanwhile, the air quality in the cities has improved dramatically since the EPA was established.  I vividly recall a drive through Gary, Indiana in the early 1980s and remember the air in Cincinnati being much clearer in the late 90s as opposed to the early 90s.  Smog wasn't just in the city but up in the Tri-County area centered around I-75 and I-275.  When you came down the I-275 hill from Winton Rd. toward Rt. 4 the smog cloud was very obvious. 

 

This. Standards for emissions has made a big difference. I can recall the air being almost noxious at times even into the late nineties. Old shots from the Enquirer archives show a shrouded skyline viewed from KY. It was never as bad as when SLC has the inversion but it was close.

What exactly was the point of that video when they made it?  I literally learned nothing from it.

 

Propaganda to advocate for the abandonment/demolition of cities and growth of suburbs. Remember, they weren't though of as "historic buildings" then, they were thought of as "slums," "ghettos," or "tenements."

 

Propaganda was precisely what I was thinking of. Ideas of "Urban Renewal". The 1960s saw a lot of investment and redevelopment in the core of American cities but not so much in Cincinnati (except for Mt. Adams.) That was coincidentally, probably around the time they saw the proliferation of housing projects.

I just saw the following comment on Facebook for an event that's happening in Washington Park: "Haven't been to the renovated Washington Park yet."

 

Washington Park reopened on July 6, 2012. Nearly five years ago.

 

So when people say in this thread that there are people who live in Cincinnati have haven't been downtown in a decade... they are not exaggerating. There are people living within a 20 minute drive of Downtown who have never seen the dramatic transformation that's happened there over the last decade.

 

It's true. I recently spoke to someone in Cleveland who was simply here in Cleveland on business from Cincinnati and we immediately bonded over having roots in Cincy. We talked about LaRosas and how despite me not living there in like 8 years, I remember their number 513-347-1111. She's a prominent business woman responsible for expanding a prominent chain into the Cleveland market and was up here for the week. She hasn't even ridden the streetcar yet! This is clearly anecdotal but she IS a west sider and she immediately spoke of how controversial the streetcar project is in Cincinnati. Well, I've been to OTR and seen the dramatic transformation first hand (several years ago!) Controlversy or not, it did make a huge difference. There is absolutely no way that you could prove otherwise.

A lot of people in OTR haven't been to the burbs much lately, either.

please don't insert punctuation mid-word so that you can swear on the forum.

A lot of people in OTR haven't been to the burbs much lately, either.

 

After living in OTR for 6 of the last 7 years (and Northside for that other year), my willingness to drive just about anywhere for any reason has gone down to almost zero. I can walk to most things I need in OTR, and it seems like such a massive pain any time I have to drive 15 minutes to get somewhere. I can't comprehend how people are okay with doing that every day of their lives.

Well now the poor are moving en masse to the 1920s-60s suburbs in Cincinnati and taking all of the social problems with them.  Having a small yard is irrelevant. 

 

Meanwhile, the air quality in the cities has improved dramatically since the EPA was established.  I vividly recall a drive through Gary, Indiana in the early 1980s and remember the air in Cincinnati being much clearer in the late 90s as opposed to the early 90s.  Smog wasn't just in the city but up in the Tri-County area centered around I-75 and I-275.  When you came down the I-275 hill from Winton Rd. toward Rt. 4 the smog cloud was very obvious. 

 

I was just commenting the other day how in the 1980s the weather reports had haze warnings in the summertime as haze would envelope the valley. You never hear of that anymore.

Getting a bit off-topic, but the fact that the air (and to a lesser extent water) has been so well cleaned up, it actually breeds contempt for the regulations, or at least complacency, because people who didn't live through the bad old days don't know what it would be like without them. 

I've read where the generalist car magazines such as Car and Driver and Road and Track were disgusted at the air when they'd go to racetracks miles outside L.A. in the '70s and could barely breathe. The attitude was, yes the cars are slower with emissions controls, but it is for the greater good. Meanwhile the car mags that were funded by the aftermarket carburetor, camshaft and exhaust manufacturers went completely bonkers decrying the attack on people's rights brought on by catalytic converters, camshafts with little overlap, unleaded gas the like. The fact that the 1973 cars were so much slower than the 1970 models triggered some kind of apocalyptic response in men's brains that made them hate all regulation forever. They actually thought they wouldn't get laid if their engine's compression ratio was too low!

Out of great suffering comes great art: