^Dress right, act right.

 

Dress for success.

 

Etc.

 

 

One issue I had was taking my parents to the neighborhood was with a ~16 yr old girl wearing a white shirt and no bra.

Look, somebody has to teach her to not dress like that. Period.

 

EDIT - adding to that, the guy wearing rags who was on acid throwing dollar bills at us couldn't meet that code. Gives the police a great reason to pick him up, take him in, charge him appropriately and then send him on to social services to get help and beat the addiction.

 

Same with the people that had no jobs drinking 40s during the day in the street.

Put them to work, or at least make them drink the 40s privately where they don't disrupt families and the others who are actually supporting the revitalization of the neighborhood.

And people wonder why Cincinnati chases people away due to its conservatism.

Sorry you're not gong to get any support for a dress code to be on the sidewalk.  Get real.

And people wonder why Cincinnati chases people away due to its conservatism.

I'm a liberal, thanks.

 

But there is a difference between being a booster and ignoring a real issue.

 

I've never had issues like the ones I've had in Cincinnati in other cities. Cleveland, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, Louisville, Chicago, Toronto, Philadelphia, Miami.... never had the sheer number of concentrated issues I've had in Cincinnati.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Cincinnati. It has nothing to do with "bashing OTR" - trust me, I have bigger fish to fry. But what does concern me is the sheer negligence of these real issues.

 

The conservatism, if you want to talk about that, has killed the resources these people have to get help and straighten out their lives. But in turn we need to acknowledge that there is a problem with the high rate of homelessness, etc. in order to fix it.

 

So far you all have belittled me. I'm disappointed in this community. I thought we were better than that, thanks for the insight otherwise....

 

 

Sorry you're not gong to get any support for a dress code to be on the sidewalk.  Get real.

 

Sure, that's fine.

 

But these people need to either shape up or ship out.

Simple as that.

 

 

Too many people have worked far too much to preserve the great heritage of OTR just to p*ss it all away to slugs who don't work and are drugged out.

They need to either help the effort and help make OTR a great place for everyone, not just the red light patrons, or leave.

OTR is a real urban neighborhood. It's not International Street at King's Island. There will be people who dress or behave differently than you and may even make you feel uncomfortable. There is no dress code. If you mind your own business and don't act stupid or make stupid comments, you are not likely to be in any danger. You can ignore people; they may get upset, but you can just keep walking an no one is going to stop you. Labeling parts of OTR as "the good part" and "the bad part" is a drastic oversimplification. You should always be cautious in urban environments no matter how safe you feel.

There will be people who dress or behave differently than you and may even make you feel uncomfortable.

 

Last time I checked, drinking 40s in the side walk in the middle of the afternoon on a weekday is against the law.

So is doing acid and wandering around the street.

And so is menacing.

 

 

Look, a real urban neighborhood we should aspire to have is a place where everyone can come and enjoy what's there.

Would you really want to walk your 4-yr old daughter past the guys on that corner?

 

 

I don't understand why I having to argue with you guys. It's a simple concept, a revitalized neighborhood is a safe neighborhood where at a bare minimum the law breaking is just as invisible as it is in, say, Springdale by Tri-County Mall.

Because you've just grossly generalized the existing population of OTR and in an offensive way. And your proposal to fix it is so obnoxious and an overstepping of civility. A dress code? Seriously. This isn't a private school where the parents are worried about what the Joneses think. People shouldn't have to put up with outsiders coming in and trying to instate something as absolutely ridiculous as a freaking dress code. Expecting us to not be combatant when you suggest something like that is delusional.

Ok whatever forget the dress code. It was a bad idea.

 

But look their behavior is inexcusable. Whats your solution?

I am completely supportive of better enforcing existing laws. Using or selling drugs on our streets and in parks should not be tolerated.

I still think it comes down to this.

 

OTR has been a bad neighborhood for decades. It's foolish to think that 5+ years of revitalization will automatically make things nice and happy all of a sudden.

 

The truth is the majority of the residents of OTR are good, genuine people. I've met them before, and they are truly sincere and nice. But there are "pockets" of people who think they can still make a living by selling drugs, and there are still residents in OTR who still live in deplorable conditions with slum land lords, without ac or heat in the apartment units. You can find these places aplenty along Republic Street.

 

My point is, you are mixing 2 very diverse social classes. One that has money, and one that doesn't. And you can't tell me there isn't the least bit of animosity towards the richer class who come and live in OTR, especially with these "pocket" residents who have absolutely nothing except making there living gang banging and selling drugs on the streets.

 

Heck, the Cincinnati enquirer did a cover page on this very subject matter: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/03/07/republic-street/24507335/

There is not much that can be done by the police, realistically, about selling drugs or public drinking. There is not nearly enough jail cells or police officers.

 

I live in an area of OTR where I am seeing the wave of gentrification and economic development pass right before my eyes, and I experience the conflict of being a person who has a decent job, a nice house, yet interacting with people that are often desperate and making bad choices over and over again. Economic development will soon solve the problems of drug dealing and abuse, public intoxication and urination, and excessive trash in my immediate neighborhood, even when the police are relatively powerless.

 

But this also doesn't really solve the problem; all it does is provide some separation distance between us. The root problem has been that folks like TroyEros[/member] can live far away and only recently venture into this area, and interact with very different people, just because enough of it has been made nice again. In my dreams enough of them will do that, and look at this issue a bit more analytically and compassionately. Then they'll realize that its going to be better for everyone if we tax ourselves and empower government to use that money to solve this societal problem, as opposed to just maintaining enough of a buffer that we can imagine it doesn't even exist.

Can someone explain why Cincinnati has the highest poverty rates for inner city black people? And why are 2nd in the nation for the highest amount of children living in poverty?

 

Why is our citizens who live in the urban core so damn poor, and why aren't we adjusting our economy to make sure these people have WELL PAYING jobs (not making minimum at the dollar store) so they can actually provide for there families?

 

Or is this more of a issue of race and just the cycle of poverty that's always existed since the end of the slave days

The root problem has been that folks like TroyEros[/member] can live far away and only recently venture into this area, and interact with very different people, just because enough of it has been made nice again. In my dreams enough of them will do that, and look at this issue a bit more analytically and compassionately. Then they'll realize that its going to be better for everyone if we tax ourselves and empower government to use that money to solve this societal problem, as opposed to just maintaining enough of a buffer that we can imagine it doesn't even exist.

 

You're right. I'll lump myself in with TroyEros[/member] , although I would argue we both have a good grasp of the issues in OTR and other urban environments or else we surely wouldn't have found our way to this website.

 

The issue lies with our families. He was with his parents, I was with mine, when the events we discussed happened. It's one thing to know how to navigate an urban environment yourself as a 20-yr old, or even with a group of young friends or with a gf/bf/whatever, but bringing bumbling, car oriented suburban Boomer parents into the mix makes it more challenging. Especially when you know your parents don't have a ton of strength to at least push past someone or outright ignore them if need be.

 

And these people have a lot of millennial kids on a tight leash, financially, emotionally (think of Fred Sanford from Sanford and Son if you want my parents' reaction to anytime I say "I am going to move downtown after college" to give you an idea), or otherwise. I want this, more than anything, but really how am I going to not give my parents a heart attack?

 

One simple way is to hope the city gets more cleaned up. So in a sense we should stop ignoring what the suburbanites shout, even if they are misguided and sometimes a lot more bigoted and naive then they want to admit. OTR is absolutely at the pinnacle of "well-revitalized neighborhoods". It is not only a model for Cincinnati, but it is a model for then entire rust belt and possibly the nation. I realize it will be diverse, and I want it to stay that way, but the blatant law breaking has to stop if we are ever going to convince all the people that doing this is worth it.

 

We all know gentrification is worth it. We all know if it is done well it can make everyone involved a lot better off and provide countless opportunities for people who already live in these neighborhoods to get ahead and live a better life. But we have to do it so good even the skeptics who hate cities and hate walking and hate people will see the value in it.

 

 

OTR is close, but it's not there. And that's what's frustrating to me, especially when I see places like German Village in Columbus or downtown Indianapolis & Chicago pull it off so well and so flawlessly. I had my parents willing to try new urban experiences for 8 years after we went to Chicago, and this most recent trip to OTR unfortunately set all of their neuroticism back in place. The same has to be true for other suburban people, the ones that are slowly being wooed to re-evaluate their cities after positive experiences in other downtowns, other urban neighborhoods, heck even places like the freaking Easton Town Center or The Greene sometimes is enough to convince these people.

 

OTR has to be good not just for itself but for all of the rust belt. People can't keeping seeing the suburbs as a viable alternative, and any events like the ones people experience everyday in OTR set the movement back that much farther to get these people to at least not "hate" urban settings.

Or is this more of a issue of race and just the cycle of poverty that's always existed since the end of the slave days

 

From what I understand as a native of the area, this is basically it.

OHKID...what I suggest for your parents.

 

Keep them on Vine street (up until the Vine street kroger). I've never had a problem there, and theres always been enough eyes on the street to make it awkward or scary.

 

Just walk around places that have bars/resturaunts, street activity. Places that are sort of low on street activity like Walnut avoid.

 

When you start diverging on other streets it just gets weird.

 

Main Street is just filled with homeless people walking because saint mary homeless shelter is located right on main, and they walk all day around main because they have nothing better to do.

Can someone explain why Cincinnati has the highest poverty rates for inner city black people? And why are 2nd in the nation for the highest amount of children living in poverty?

 

Why the hell is our citizens who live in the urban core so damn poor, and why aren't we adjusting our economy to make sure these people have WELL PAYING jobs (not making minimum at the dollar store) so they can actually provide for there families?

 

Or is this more of a issue of race and just the cycle of poverty that's always existed since the end of the slave days

 

In general the high poverty rates are due to Cincinnati being much more abandoned by the middle classes than a lot of other cities - you mentioned Chicago earlier and actually on a regional scale Cincy and Chicago are modest growth towns with strong diversified economic bases - they are similar abeit Chicago is scaled up to a much larger size and has more post-industrial issues to deal with.  The biggest difference between the two is that in Chicago some neighborhoods never fully declined, porportionally way more than never did in Cincinnati.  For instance the far northwest side, the ukrainian village and the far southwest side are pretty much the same neighborhoods they were prior to white flight in the 1960s.

 

Racism is the core reason here, along with the sheer scale of the urban renewal movement in Cincinnati combined with a lack of an immigrant population to strengthen the working class makes Cincy the town that it is today.

My parents are about as awkward and un-urban as can be, and we have never had any problems in OTR.  But I live there, and I guess maybe that's why I take a very different view than some.    I don't walk around just hoping to avoid having people who are likely long-term residents talking to me or having to interact with them.  In fact, I am far more likely to say "how's it going" or comment on the weather or whatever it may be.  I've lived there for four and a half years now--and believe me, when I moved in in 2011, it was nothing like it is today--and I've never gotten hassled by anyone, and I have a 6-year-old daughter who interacts with everyone she sees in OTR.  Maybe I have just been lucky in my experiences--that is always possible--but if you visit an urban environment in fear of getting hassled, I think you are much more likely to have that experience. 

My parents are about as awkward and un-urban as can be, and we have never had any problems in OTR.  But I live there, and I guess maybe that's why I take a very different view than some.    I don't walk around just hoping to avoid having people who are likely long-term residents talking to me or having to interact with them.  In fact, I am far more likely to say "how's it going" or comment on the weather or whatever it may be.  I've lived there for four and a half years now--and believe me, when I moved in in 2011, it was nothing like it is today--and I've never gotten hassled by anyone, and I have a 6-year-old daughter who interacts with everyone she sees in OTR.  Maybe I have just been lucky in my experiences--that is always possible--but if you visit an urban environment in fear of getting hassled, I think you are much more likely to have that experience.

 

But wouldn't you say you've come across a few shady experiences? Like, lets keep walking, I'm feeling a bit to uncomfortable now?

 

Again, the majority of these OTR residents are really nice people. Especially the older residents, they are super nice, and ask how your doing all the time while walking down the street.

 

But tell me if I'm wrong, but do you not nice a similar small "pocket" group of OTR residents who still kind of abide to the OTR of old with drug dealing/gang banging? And please tell me you've noticed the crowd that hangs around the old Columbia building on Walnut during the late evening/night hours...

 

Heck, even 3cdc mentions it's a hot crime around (the columbia building on walnut)

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/10/16/3cdc-buys-3-problem-properties-in-over-the-rhine.html

 

Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. purchased three low-income housing properties in Over-the-Rhine that have been the source of lots of criminal activity and is in the process of moving residents to other housing options in the neighborhood.

 

Thankfully 3cdc is in the process of adding retail and residental units in the Old Columbia building. But I can't believe you long time OTR residents haven't noticed the pocket who always try to sell you weed? I frequent 16 bit alot, and leave around 2 am, so maybe that's why?

I'm a big fan of OTR and our family has lived in the neighborhood for almost ten years.  However, it is most certainly still a very crime ridden and dangerous neighborhood.  It has gotten a lot better over the last decade, but to pretend it isn't a dangerous place filled with drug dealers/buyers, armed robbers and extremely disrespectful people is being dishonest.

Edited because a message board is not worth the hassle to deal with it when people accuse you of being dishonest. 

Ok whatever forget the dress code. It was a bad idea.

 

But look their behavior is inexcusable. Whats your solution?

 

Living in a city exposes you to all types of people. The sidewalk is not a private, controlled space, and not everyone should have to conform to what you deem acceptable. I don't think people should be allowed to break laws, but new laws shouldn't be created to force people to behave and look a certain way so that you and your 4 year old can comfortably walk down the street. Cities, at least at the sidewalk level, are communal spaces, and your "needs" and comfort do not supersede the rights of others to exist.

 

Honest question- have you ever lived in an urban neighborhood? Have you ever lived in a city outside of Ohio by chance? Even in very nice neighborhoods in places like New York, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, etc. you still encounter all types of crazy, mean, drugged out, homeless, loud people all the time. It's a part of living in the city. Your posts reek of the cultural conservatism of which Cincinnati is infamous for, despite your declaration that you're "a liberal".

You have to draw a line somewhere though.  It's not ok to walk down the street completely naked (well maybe it is in San Francisco), so whether actual or implied there *IS* a dress code already, the question is just what the boundaries are.  Public indecency as a law is dangerous when it's left so ambiguous, leading to abusive targeting and selective enforcement, but few would argue that there shouldn't be any laws to that effect at all, so it's better that they're more clearly defined then. 

jdm00[/member]  is correct that your method of interacting with people will affect what sort of feedback you get. I'd assume that would be completely obvious.

 

I am guessing that the differing opinions expressed here, based on differing experiences, end up being explained to a large degree by these differing ways of interacting on the street. Although I'm 5'-7" and 140#, I never look down when I'm walking, I make eye contact with people and say hello, and when I'm asked for money or to listen to a story I've already heard, I look at them and politely explain that I don't have any change, or I am a little busy and don't have time right now. I might be lying sometimes when I say those things, but I'll live with that. I also don't go out of my way to call the cops on suspected activities outside my window, knowing that all it'll do is to aggrevate the cops and result in no arrest. But if there are loud folks on the sidewalk after 11:00 pm, especially on a weeknight, then even though it's a hassle I'll go outside and say, pretty firmly, that I'm trying to get some sleep and would they please lower their voices.

 

This is all pretty much city living 101 in my opinion, but I get the idea that some visitors are so freaked out they telegraph either their fear or their disgust, or both, and of course that would anger people, and maybe make them want them to have their own fears realized just a bit, so to speak.

 

edale[/member]

 

Congrats, you got me, I have never lived in an urban neighborhood.

 

But your question and subsequent statements miss the point. The days when we wear being a resident of some ghetto as some idiosyncratic point of pride should be done. We need to grow up and start helping the unfortunate people who are thrown into these horrible substandard living situations, and gentrification helps. We can, have, and need to continue to figure out ways to build up the people that live in ghettos so they can get ahead and get out.  Blindly excusing crime is almost as bad as just fleeing like the neurotic suburbanites because it perpetuates a notion that we are too blind and too dumb to acknowledge the real issues. If you want my parents opinion of gentrification, look to the final statement of that last sentence.

 

So sure, attack me for not living in a rebounding neighborhood and not turning around a ghetto, that's fine and honestly IMO acceptable. But you ignore the fact that over 90% of people don't have the interest or the ability to move willingly into a ghetto and do a full scale renovation and deal with the crime unless they are financially forced to be there. Safety is at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for a reason - it is the most basic thing people need besides shelter to feel safe, happy, and able to do well. So my point is that OTR needs to focus even more on reducing crime and enforcing the existing laws to make it a safe, enjoyable neighborhood for all. And this is especially important because we still need to work hard every day to prove to people that OTR and urban neighborhoods are worth fighting for. We can't face regression, especially not this early in the game, back to endless suburbanization.

 

 

So yeah, if that post doesn't prove I'm a liberal I don't know what will. I guess I could send y'all a pic of my Obama poster....

OHKID[/member]  Your not fully understanding - these types of people you encounter in all urban environments even in good neighborhood sometimes (though it is less).  I'm used to it, I've been asked so much for cash that I get those big city blinders on and just say no thanks and move on.  Its to the point where when I go to Cincy and give that attitude a lot of panhandlers get angry because they aren't used to a style that's so impersonal even if you are still lying (I barely make eye contact and it freaks Cincy people out who are more used to passive aggressive attitudes which are waaay to abundant in Cincy - it would behoove people there too be a bit more blunt within reason).  I lived in the safest neighborhood in Chicago at one point which is as safe as most suburbs and I still saw the occasional drugged out crazy guy talking to themselves walking down the street.  It happens you just have to know how to work with it.

 

Honest question- have you ever lived in an urban neighborhood? Have you ever lived in a city outside of Ohio by chance? Even in very nice neighborhoods in places like New York, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, etc. you still encounter all types of crazy, mean, drugged out, homeless, loud people all the time. It's a part of living in the city. Your posts reek of the cultural conservatism of which Cincinnati is infamous for, despite your declaration that you're "a liberal".

 

This is exactly what I was getting at, thanks for explaining it :).  Also when you travel be a bit of what Rick Steves calls a smart traveler, learn from where you travel to and you'll be smarter about your hometown.

 

Chicago is the worst. I can't actually imagine living in urban Chicago.

 

First of all the amount of homeless people on the streets are insane. And it's not even who you would expect. I've seen muslim women, and even saw a family once, with a young daughter. It's just crazy. Again, typical for a big city I know, but to see a family be homeless is insane, especially when America likes to shout how much of a progressive first world country it is.

 

Secondly, the homeless people are aggressive. I told one homeless man, "no thanks", and he got upset with me, and started following me into a near by McDonalds and started yelling profanities at me for being a cheap ass motherf***er. I was afraid to leave the Mcdonalds to be quite honest.

 

3rd, I got mugged in area that everyone considers safe. The loop. I got off the canal ride with my family, and headed into a nearby Mcdonalds that sits in the wide type of alley. When we come out a group of black men approach me and start shining my shoes without me even asking them to do so. They continue to shine the shoes, and I was reaching into my pocket to give them 5 bucks for there work. They start getting angry, and said they believe there work was worth more than 5 and demanded a 100$. I told them I didn't have that much, and they said I was lying and pulled out a knife and demanded my wallet. I gave it to them, and the group of men ran off.

 

I reported this to the police, they know about the shoe shining scam, but they said there's nothing much they can do about it except just cancel my credit cards. There I was, with my family, getting mugged on Michigan Avenue, in a heavily populated entertainment/retail district, in the middle of the day.

Chicago is the worst. I can't actually imagine living in urban Chicago.

 

When did you travel there?  The loop is a lot safer than it used to be.

 

Please read this article to better understand Urban Chicago before you make an ill informed comment about it, just because there are like 3 neighborhoods that are practically war zones doesn't make the area I live in a bad neighborhood, in fact its far more livable than anything in Cincinnati (even if the politics are way more corrupt):

 

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130814/BLOGS02/130819920/when-it-comes-to-murder-chicago-is-two-cities

 

See those green areas, that's where I live and have always lived since I moved up here.  Its the dark red areas that get all the news, and its really really bad but highly highly concentrated and distant from anything of interest to people visiting from out of town.

 

I'm not even going to qualify your racist comment about muslims, guess what other places are more diverse than Cincinnati and people are GASP different than what you are used to.  Why would someone who hates america even consider living here (WHY DID YOU BRING UP BEING MUSLIM AS AN INSULT THAT'S TERRIBLE)?!  Again and people wonder why outsiders are chased away by the cultural conservatism of Cincinnati :roll:

 

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on your story in OTR, but after those kind of comments I think you're full of it.

Chicago is the worst. I can't actually imagine living in urban Chicago.

 

Please read this article to better understand Urban Chicago before you make an ill informed comment about it, just because there are like 3 neighborhoods that are practically war zones doesn't make the area I live in a bad neighborhood, in fact its far more livable than anything in Cincinnati (even if the politics are way more corrupt):

 

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130814/BLOGS02/130819920/when-it-comes-to-murder-chicago-is-two-cities

 

See those green areas, that's where I live and have always lived since I moved up here.  Its the dark red areas that get all the news, and its really really bad but highly highly concentrated and distant from anything of interest to people visiting from out of town.

 

I'm not even going to qualify your racist comment about muslims, guess what other places are more diverse than Cincinnati and people are GASP different than what you are used to.  Again and people wonder why outsiders are chased away by the cultural conservatism of Cincinnati :roll:

 

So because  I got mugged in the middle of the day on a heavy touristy area with my family allows me to not have a negative opinion? It was a vacation, and that event soiled all my thoughts from here on out of Chicago. Sorry.

 

Believe what you want mate. I don't get any incentives for telling my stories. I don't have anyone to convert. Whether you believe me or not doesn't matte to me in the slightest.

Chicago is the worst. I can't actually imagine living in urban Chicago.

 

Please read this article to better understand Urban Chicago before you make an ill informed comment about it, just because there are like 3 neighborhoods that are practically war zones doesn't make the area I live in a bad neighborhood, in fact its far more livable than anything in Cincinnati (even if the politics are way more corrupt):

 

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130814/BLOGS02/130819920/when-it-comes-to-murder-chicago-is-two-cities

 

See those green areas, that's where I live and have always lived since I moved up here.  Its the dark red areas that get all the news, and its really really bad but highly highly concentrated and distant from anything of interest to people visiting from out of town.

 

I'm not even going to qualify your racist comment about muslims, guess what other places are more diverse than Cincinnati and people are GASP different than what you are used to.  Again and people wonder why outsiders are chased away by the cultural conservatism of Cincinnati :roll:

 

So because  I got mugged in the middle of the day on a heavy touristy area with my family allows me to not have a negative opinion? It was a vacation, and that event soiled all my thoughts from here on out of Chicago. Sorry.

 

Believe what you want mate. I don't get any incentives for telling my stories. I don't have anyone to convert. Whether you believe me or not doesn't matte to me in the slightest.

 

Still doesn't excuse you being shocked at seeing someone who follows another religion.  That's inexcusable, particularly in a place like Chicago.

Also watch the language y'all.

 

Thanks!

Unlocked...

I apologize for overreacting earlier.  Hope to see more good discussion here :)

To give a little perspective on how "hot" OTR, and the Cincinnati metro is generally, compared to the big boys:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/01/25/flip-this-condo-seaport-choicest-new-address-already-sees-units-resold/6fnXmTeGN6Wm0rcuNlWquJ/story.html?s_campaign=email_BG_TodaysHeadline&s_campaign=

 

Unfortunately many of the gentrification alarmists, not unlike the suburban streetcar-haters who are upset about high OTR prices, have seemingly no concept of what the crushing housing costs are like in bigger cities.  Even Nashville and Charlotte, for a 3-mile radius in all directions from their respective downtowns, are at least 2X more expensive than Over-the-Rhine. 

But, those evil hipster-yuppies are fueling an unsustainable bubble.  I'm a lifelong Cincinnatian and all I know is that neighborhoods never last forever!  This is todays news, not tomorrows! I also hate the streetcar and anything new and different.  Bubble!  Bubble!  I don't travel anywhere and even if I did we are different!

 

:evil:

 

Seriously though, it really baffles me how many Cincinnnatians have an almost unique talent for making anything positive a negative its not healthy.

I don't get how with the popularity with all the flipping and home improvement shows in all sorts of markets around the country and world that people from Cincinnati don't get that they're a) enjoying one of the cheapest real estate markets in the developed world and b) prices are so cheap in the city and in the suburbs because the suburbs are so vastly overbuilt. 

 

People are complaining about paying $600k for a 1500 sq foot single family home in OTR when people are routinely paying that much in mediocre cities like Nashville, for homes that are 3-5 miles from downtown, not within walking (or streetcar!) distance of it.  There are still a lot of 2-bedroom condos selling in DT Cincinnati priced between $200k and $300k.  There's basically nowhere else in the United States where that is possible. 

But the people complaining about prices in OTR are generally people that would never buy in OTR anyway. The people who are buying or renting in OTR generally understand why it's worth that price. So just tune out the complainers.

What's really weird is that people don't get upset when they hear about expensive, relatively small homes in Mt. Adams.  There was never a racial/welfare/Buddy Gray/riot narrative in Mt. Adams, so all of the hatred toward OTR is based mostly around issues from 20-30 years ago, plus the streetcar. 

I really think its a matter of the Status Quo being disrupted to the point where Cincinnatians can't wrap their head around it.  Mallory and co did things vastly different than what was the norm in Cincinnati politics for nearly 50 years.  I'm almost positive OTR wouldn't have been done by 3CDC if it wasn't for Mallory's leadership (he focused them away from the Banks).

 

As a result people just don't know what to expect.  They don't understand how things work elsewhere because they don't care or refuse to acknowlege elsewhere.  Its a giant cultural problem of Cincinnati that permeates deep into the city, I'll cite a few examples from when I was showing friends from Chicago around the city:

 

One of my friends has odd interests, she loves cemeteries and libraries (she's a librarian herself) so I know that Cincinnati has excellent and unusual libraries and one utterly fantastic cemetery.

 

Because I never got a chance to check it out I go to Spring Grove's website and see if there is a walking/driving tour we can take.  They have a sheet, but when we go to print it out its printed at a ridiculously small size, and we can't figure out how to fix it without making the guide look bad.  The assumption here IMO is if you are visiting this site you are a local so no need to accommodate out of towers even though we talk about how unusual this cemetary is...

 

The second instance was finding the mercantile library again an odd interest - we had a heck of a time finding it and signage was terrible for it.  Made me think well you know the mentality is its only something locals would be interested in even though its unique so you know everyone should already know about it - its not like people from out of town would actually want to go there.

 

Going to a more general interest - there is nothing but a very expensive once a year trip down to the subway tunnels.  Most people out of town that I tell there is abandoned subway to think its cool.  However its only open once a year, nothings even been considered to expand this or take advantage of this even though there are other quirky attractions like this around the country that have done it even ones that are more dubious in quality like the Portland Underground that understand an interest in quirky local history or oddities.

 

Even more general, why the *(&*( is the freaken megabus stop in a parking lot in Queensgate instead of somewhere that you know would be accommodating to out of town tourists particularly those of us who are from Chicago are okay with transit and may not know that the downtown stop is in such a terrible location.

 

Also why aren't the city steps promoted more?  Pittsburgh, Seattle and San Fran do way more with their public steps than Cincinnati does?  Again I think its the same terrible mentality.

 

I guess the point I'm getting at is this, there is a very deep cultural distrust/ignorance of the outside world in Cincinnati.  It doesn't apply to everyone who lives there but its deep and it ruins what should be rational conclusions about many many things.  Its a wonder that Cincinnati got someone like Mallory who had foresight and perspective two things that traditional leadership wasn't interested in even if they knew better.

As a result people just don't know what to expect.  They don't understand how things work elsewhere because they don't care or refuse to acknowlege elsewhere.  Its a giant cultural problem of Cincinnati that permeates deep into the city, I'll cite a few examples from when I was showing friends from Chicago around the city:

 

One of my friends has odd interests, she loves cemeteries and libraries (she's a librarian herself) so I know that Cincinnati has excellent and unusual libraries and one utterly fantastic cemetery.

 

Because I never got a chance to check it out I go to Spring Grove's website and see if there is a walking/driving tour we can take.  They have a sheet, but when we go to print it out its printed at a ridiculously small size, and we can't figure out how to fix it without making the guide look bad.  The assumption here IMO is if you are visiting this site you are a local so no need to accommodate out of towers even though we talk about how unusual this cemetary is...

 

 

I think this is all a little reaching.  Spring Grove has numerous pdf maps for walking/running/driving. While cincinnati most certainly has an issued with being close minded I don't think a reasonable person can think that there is mindset of the staff of spring grove to keep it a locals only attraction.  I mean as  a local I use the maps all the time to not get lost there.

 

http://www.springgrove.org/maps.aspx?mID=36

Try printing that map out. Lol.  I'll admit that's a bit of a stretch.

 

It does remind me of visiting Saint Louis which has a lot in common with Cincy, but they seem to be much more interested in talking about their past achievements with others.  The Missouri History museum is superior in every way to the Cicninnati one that spends way too much time talking about WWII (though at least Cincy's does have that really cool scale model of the city circa 1940) and not enough time on its heyday from 1800-1890.  In STL There was an exhibit that talked about how STL was at its peak year of 1875 and lots of facts were discussed that were weirdly similar to Cincinnatis (for instance the small footprint of the city - 64 mi for STL 78 for Cincy).  Its kind of driven theses thoughts I've had home...

I really think its a matter of the Status Quo being disrupted to the point where Cincinnatians can't wrap their head around it.  Mallory and co did things vastly different than what was the norm in Cincinnati politics for nearly 50 years.  I'm almost positive OTR wouldn't have been done by 3CDC if it wasn't for Mallory's leadership (he focused them away from the Banks).

 

As a result people just don't know what to expect.  They don't understand how things work elsewhere because they don't care or refuse to acknowlege elsewhere.  Its a giant cultural problem of Cincinnati that permeates deep into the city, I'll cite a few examples from when I was showing friends from Chicago around the city:

 

One of my friends has odd interests, she loves cemeteries and libraries (she's a librarian herself) so I know that Cincinnati has excellent and unusual libraries and one utterly fantastic cemetery.

 

Because I never got a chance to check it out I go to Spring Grove's website and see if there is a walking/driving tour we can take.  They have a sheet, but when we go to print it out its printed at a ridiculously small size, and we can't figure out how to fix it without making the guide look bad.  The assumption here IMO is if you are visiting this site you are a local so no need to accommodate out of towers even though we talk about how unusual this cemetary is...

 

The second instance was finding the mercantile library again an odd interest - we had a heck of a time finding it and signage was terrible for it.  Made me think well you know the mentality is its only something locals would be interested in even though its unique so you know everyone should already know about it - its not like people from out of town would actually want to go there.

 

Going to a more general interest - there is nothing but a very expensive once a year trip down to the subway tunnels.  Most people out of town that I tell there is abandoned subway to think its cool.  However its only open once a year, nothings even been considered to expand this or take advantage of this even though there are other quirky attractions like this around the country that have done it even ones that are more dubious in quality like the Portland Underground that understand an interest in quirky local history or oddities.

 

Even more general, why the *(&*( is the freaken megabus stop in a parking lot in Queensgate instead of somewhere that you know would be accommodating to out of town tourists particularly those of us who are from Chicago are okay with transit and may not know that the downtown stop is in such a terrible location.

 

Also why aren't the city steps promoted more?  Pittsburgh, Seattle and San Fran do way more with their public steps than Cincinnati does?  Again I think its the same terrible mentality.

 

I guess the point I'm getting at is this, there is a very deep cultural distrust/ignorance of the outside world in Cincinnati.  It doesn't apply to everyone who lives there but its deep and it ruins what should be rational conclusions about many many things.  Its a wonder that Cincinnati got someone like Mallory who had foresight and perspective two things that traditional leadership wasn't interested in even if they knew better.

 

I agree with your point, but complaining that the massive Spring Grove doesn't have a map that is usable when printed out at home is bit off base. Spring Grove is simply too large, with too many features. If you want to zoom into a particular area and print out a custom map, have at it! But if you want a map of the full cemetery, you need something bigger.

 

I'll admit I'm grasping at straws with some details here, still posting food for thought ;)

I really think its a matter of the Status Quo being disrupted to the point where Cincinnatians can't wrap their head around it.  Mallory and co did things vastly different than what was the norm in Cincinnati politics for nearly 50 years.  I'm almost positive OTR wouldn't have been done by 3CDC if it wasn't for Mallory's leadership (he focused them away from the Banks).

 

As a result people just don't know what to expect.  They don't understand how things work elsewhere because they don't care or refuse to acknowlege elsewhere.  Its a giant cultural problem of Cincinnati that permeates deep into the city, I'll cite a few examples from when I was showing friends from Chicago around the city:

 

One of my friends has odd interests, she loves cemeteries and libraries (she's a librarian herself) so I know that Cincinnati has excellent and unusual libraries and one utterly fantastic cemetery.

 

Because I never got a chance to check it out I go to Spring Grove's website and see if there is a walking/driving tour we can take.  They have a sheet, but when we go to print it out its printed at a ridiculously small size, and we can't figure out how to fix it without making the guide look bad.  The assumption here IMO is if you are visiting this site you are a local so no need to accommodate out of towers even though we talk about how unusual this cemetary is...

 

The second instance was finding the mercantile library again an odd interest - we had a heck of a time finding it and signage was terrible for it.  Made me think well you know the mentality is its only something locals would be interested in even though its unique so you know everyone should already know about it - its not like people from out of town would actually want to go there.

 

Going to a more general interest - there is nothing but a very expensive once a year trip down to the subway tunnels.  Most people out of town that I tell there is abandoned subway to think its cool.  However its only open once a year, nothings even been considered to expand this or take advantage of this even though there are other quirky attractions like this around the country that have done it even ones that are more dubious in quality like the Portland Underground that understand an interest in quirky local history or oddities.

 

Even more general, why the *(&*( is the freaken megabus stop in a parking lot in Queensgate instead of somewhere that you know would be accommodating to out of town tourists particularly those of us who are from Chicago are okay with transit and may not know that the downtown stop is in such a terrible location.

 

Also why aren't the city steps promoted more?  Pittsburgh, Seattle and San Fran do way more with their public steps than Cincinnati does?  Again I think its the same terrible mentality.

 

I guess the point I'm getting at is this, there is a very deep cultural distrust/ignorance of the outside world in Cincinnati.  It doesn't apply to everyone who lives there but its deep and it ruins what should be rational conclusions about many many things.  Its a wonder that Cincinnati got someone like Mallory who had foresight and perspective two things that traditional leadership wasn't interested in even if they knew better.

 

I think you are grossly over-exaggerating Cincinnati's tribalism. It seems like every comment you put on here is blasting the people of Cincinnati for small-mindedness. Those same people exist in Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Cleveland, etc. This isn't an anomaly. I'm guessing you just follow Cincinnati more and read more comments on the Enquirer than you would the St. Louis equivalent.

 

Also, you have to be a member of the Mercantile Library, they don't want a bunch of tourists wandering around taking pictures. I've never seen any of those cities promote their public steps you mentioned. That Spring Grove complaint is strange. How would you make the map fit an 8.5x11 sheet of paper and provide any useful info? They have maps there and you can just look at it on your phone. The city probably doesn't want a bunch of people always in the subway tunnels. There's an active water main. I'm sure temporary insurance for the museum center is pretty big for that event. The Megabus stop does suck and I've tried emailing city council members to get that changed. I even offered solutions. I heard back, but then no more follow ups. Thanks for reminding me. I'll shoot off an email now and see if they have even thought about it.

 

Point being: All of these complaints are things you could probably complain about in other cities. You likely only see the good in cities you don't closely follow, and you see it all in cities you do follow closely.

In terms of perception, I think you are exaggerating the problem. Every city has its share of people who hate downtown, think their city is boring or dangerous, and don't think tourists would ever visit their city. Cincinnati is not unique in that regard.

 

What is unique about Cincinnati is how the current administration has harnessed these anti-downtown feelings to gain power. But that tactic will not work forever.

 

Think of it this way -- UC students now come to OTR to hang out. (Despite their parents telling them, "Don't you ever go to OTR! You'll get shot!") For the rest of their lives those students are going to have memories of OTR as a good place to go for cool bars and restaurants. And maybe they'll even be into the architecture, the streetcar, etc. When out-of-town friends come to town, OTR is where they'll hang out, and the word will continue to spread.

 

Additionally, I overhear older people all the time in OTR having conversations like, "Wow, this neighborhood didn't use to be like this. I never would've come here 10 years ago."

 

That is why I am confident that OTR is going to continue to grow and its perception will continue to improve. As more and more people in the region discover what Downtown and OTR have to offer, it will become harder for politicians to gain power by $#!++ing on the urban core.

Keep up the good fight on the Megabus stop :)

 

Before I strayed too far from the original point, I guess what bothers me is the sheer negativity towards revitalization. I just don't see it at that level elsewhere unless there is a genuine crisis like in San Francisco.  (Yes in Chicago it does exist too again not quite at as strong a level).  I'm grasping at straws to find an answer and I'm not fully sure I completely understand it myself.

 

EDIT: I think taestell[/member] had pretty good points about it being a political tool which in turn has really enhanced the mentality.

 

Comments sections in newspapers everywhere are awful I might add lol.

A lot of the opposition to redevelopment is due to the bizarre, irrational hatred of "yuppies". Seriously, every time there is a new development announced, UrbanCincy gets a ton of comments about how it's "more condos for yuppies" or "a new yuppie grocery store."

 

I struggle to understand why there is so much hatred of young people who went through college, got a decent-paying job, and now want a nice place to live (and maybe even a nice grocery store nearby).

 

Where does the hatred originate? Is it from other young people who who are jealous of their peers who have secured better-paying jobs? Is it the belief that anyone with money "belongs" in the suburbs and shouldn't live in the city? Is it old people who are angry that young people are now gaining influence? I really don't know. It's mind-boggling.

People are underestimating the stranglehold talk radio has over this city's perception of itself.  I've lived in 7 different cities and none of them had anywhere close to the talk radio culture that Cincinnati has, and most of that is due to Bill Cunningham.  I work at a company with 150 employees...I'd be surprised if 5 have to downtown or OTR for any reason other than a court appearance or athletic event in the past 10 years.  Meanwhile, 30-50 of them listen to 700 WLW for at least 30-60 minutes per day, some of them much more. 

 

Big crowds in OTR on Fridays and Saturdays give the illusion that "everyone" is there, when in fact well under 10% of the metro's population has been there since the revitalization began ten years ago. 

A lot of the opposition to redevelopment is due to the bizarre, irrational hatred of "yuppies". Seriously, every time there is a new development announced, UrbanCincy gets a ton of comments about how it's "more condos for yuppies" or "a new yuppie grocery store."

 

The hatred of Yuppies is puzzling because Cincinnati doesn't have too much of the kind of douchey yuppie culture that makes people hate them, stuff like this:

 

http://chicagoist.com/2016/01/12/finally_live_in_a_building_stuffed.php

 

And that doesn't even come close to what you'll find on the coasts as many posts from C-Dawg reveal...

 

Someone like Bill Cunningham who travels to NYC regularly might understand this is a thing, then sell it to a Cincinnati audience who lives in the suburbs (or outer neighborhoods of the city).

We'll win in the end. All of us love the city, and it's easier to love than hate. The hate will burn off.