The Long Road for Broadway Commons

 

Broadway Commons is a site located at the junction of Reading Road and Broadway in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio that was once the site of a proposed baseball stadium. But the proposal from a railroad yard and industrial site to a casino was a decades long process that was anything but easy.

 

In the mid-1800s, the land for Broadway Commons was once home to a Cincinnati, Lebanon and Northern Railway yard and train depot until 1969, and various industries and businesses, including Eagle White Lead Company and Queen City Chevrolet. In the late 1990s, the site was sought after for a potential location for the Cincinnati Bengals stadium, and then for the Cincinnati Reds. Issue 1 in 1996 led to a half-cent county sales tax to build new stadiums. On May 29, 1997, the Bengals and the county signed a lease to build Paul Brown Stadium on the riverfront.

 

A 1994 rendering of a Reds baseball stadium at Broadway Commons.

 

On April 7, 1998, city council offered $20 million to the Reds to build a stadium at Broadway Commons. The county, along with the Reds, preferred a riverfront location. This is a gross simplification of the debates and threats of lawsuits that actually occurred, but that is for another day – and eventually articles for the stadiums.

 

A 1998 proposal, from Atlanta-based Post Properties, was introduced to city council on April 13 that called for 600 housing units and retail. The idea was not well received by some – including then-Councilman Jim Tarbell, who stated that Post’s intent was to lobby for a pro-riverfront baseball stadium. John Schneider, chairman of the pro-riverfront Move Greater Cincinnati Forward campaign, stated that a facility would not physically fit at Broadway Commons. Neighborhood Committee Chairman Charlie Winburn, however, saw that Broadway Commons would be a great way to attract more people to live in downtown. It was also a site that could be redeveloped “immediately,” as a riverfront site was next to Fort Washington Way that was being reconstructed and would be under construction for the next several years.

 

1998 housing proposal for Broadway Commons.

 

On July 1, the county and city signed an agreement to build the Reds stadium along Main and 2nd Street in what was described as “the wedge.” Not satisfied, backers of a Broadway Commons stadium gathered enough signatures by July 24 to have the issue put to ballot that November. Issue 11, which went to voters that November, called for a baseball stadium location to be placed at Broadway Commons over the riverfront. It was ultimately defeated.

 

The first notion for a casino was 2006, when Louis Beck, a hotelier and banker, began an effort to legalize casinos in Ohio. That eventually led to Issue 3 for 2009.

 

On September 18, 2009, Rock Ventures, a group that would own a proposed Cincinnati casino as well as one in Cleveland, released a rendering of the casino if Ohio voters approve Issue 3 at the November polls. Issue 3 would authorize developers to install up to 5,000 slots machines and an unspecified number of table games. In return, the casinos would pay a 33% tax on gambling revenue, traditional business taxes, and for four, one-time $50 million licenses. The proposed Cincinnati development would generate $517 million in gambling revenue during its opening year, attract 6 million visitors a year and employ 1,700.

 

On April 15, 2010, Rock Ventures closed the deal on a 20-acre site in the northeast part of downtown for $35 million, roughly double the market value of $14 million. It was announced at that time that the casino would feature four to six retailers fronting the streets, restaurants, a main entrance at Reading and Broadway and a 4,000-space parking garage.

 

A rendering for Horseshoe Casino Cincinnati showing the front plaza and entrance.

 

Ground was broken on February 4, 2011 for Horseshoe Casino Cincinnati, the seventh nationwide, and heavy construction began within days on the site. Between February and March 2011, 7,700-tons of lead-contaminated soil was removed from the casino site and hauled to a landfill. The lead contamination came from Eagle Picher Lead Company, located near Reading Road and Broadway between 1867 and 1945. The “corroding house” was located near the main casino floor location, and was where acid was poured on sheets of lead to develop paint pigment.

 

On May 11, work was suspended on the casino after a dispute arose between Rock Gaming and the state of Ohio, who had proposed an increase in their tax rate. The Republican-led Ohio House of Representatives had approved a proposed budget the week earlier that included a tax rule that meant a larger bill for the casino developers under the Commercial Activity Tax (CAT). The casinos’ gross receipts, without deductions of winnings and payouts, would have been taxed. The House deal sought to apply the .26% CAT to total betting rather than just the net losses by the gamblers. But just shortly after introducing the bill, the lawmakers stripped out language that would have cost the developers millions of dollars and may have been illegal. The language was revised to define the taxation as to 33% of gross earnings, or total amount wagered minus winnings – as was agreed to in the 2009 constitutional amendment.

 

After a stoppage of 31 days, work began on the casino after the developers and the state came to an agreement.

 

On January 11, 2012, the city sold a half-acre, 450-foot portion of Broadway between Reading Road and Court Street to Rock Gaming in exchange for 1.4 acres of land along the edge of the casino property for a Reading Road realignment between Eggleston Avenue and Liberty Street. The county had previously agreed to sell a three-sided, nearly 1-acre, 160-space parking lot bordered by Broadway, Eggleston Avenue and Reading Road in exchange for 300 parking spaces in the casino’s 2,500-space garage.

 

On January 27, part of the casino’s second floor collapsed, injuring more than a dozen workers and halting construction at the development for one week. The incident occurred when workers were pouring concrete for a floor onto sheet metal that was supported by a steel beam that broke. On April 9, six construction firms, Messer Construction, J&B Steel Erectors Inc., Pendleton Construction Group LLC, D.A.G. Construction Company, TriVersity Construction Company and Jostin Construction Inc. were issued $108,220 in citations.

 

The two-level, 350,000 square-foot Horseshoe Casino is expected to open in spring 2013, and is expected to cost $400 million to complete.

 

Below are photographs taken in mid-May of the casino construction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further Reading

Broadway Commons: http://urbanup.net/cities/ohio/cincinnati-ohio/downtown/broadway-commons/

Nice shots.  Would've loved to have the ballpark there but the buffet will do.

What an informative post. Thank you, Sherman Cahal. This is why UrbanOhio is a great website.

Great write up.

Had no idea Post was ever looking at this site! They have a HUGE presence in Atlanta in terms of rental housing....if you're looking to rent anywhere in ATL you'll probably look at their units.

 

I wonder if they'd ever consider looking at Cincinnati again as more people start to move into the city? They have a good reputation and take care of their properties, use good materials and are generally a professional company.

I would have rather seen the housing go in, given that it would have activated the Gilbert Avenue corridor and provided at least some presence along that desolate stretch of road. Preferred that over a blank parking garage and out-of-the-way bus station.

^would housing been profitable enough to cover the remediation costs?

Not sure. How many buildings were left back then? If some of these places closed down only in the mid-1990s, and they had to remove 7,700 tons of soil, then you'd be looking at some serious subsidies. Using a Clean Ohio grant today (dating to just 2001? http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/122.65) would help, maybe even a Superfund.

This is a well-researched post.Thanks for taking the time.

 

For about 30 years, the industry has been trying to get casino gambling in Ohio. It seems that the indiana casinos have finally influenced Ohio voters.

 

What I find interesting is that a previous proposal that failed in Ohio was to allow riverboat gambling. Riverboat gambling passed in Indiana; however, after a few years, the requirement that the boat had to be moving on the water was eliminated, and now they operate dockside. The current Ohio law does not specify riverboats at all, and the casino is being built on land. This just shows how much our inftrastructure can be influenced by cultural effects, and it can take DECADES to get a law changed. 

 

The other interesting thing is that all of the excuses why we couldn't have baseball on Broadway Commons were overcome by the casino developer. Marge Schott said that baseball on Broadway Commons wouldn't work because people wouldn't be able to find the ballpark! She also said that the riverfront was historically the home for baseball. Did she not know about Crosely Field, the Deer Creek Commons, the Palace of the Fans, etc.?

How badly was Issue 11 defeated in 1998?  I was away at college at the time and don't remember the details.

It was beaten pretty handily, unfortunately - maybe somewhere in the 58%-42% range.  I do recall the only neighborhoods it won in were Clifton, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, and Oakley.  I helped get signatures to get this one on the ballot and remember there being a nice network of people who really wanted to get this done.  It was hard convincing some people though - there seemed to be a metality that it just had to be on the river.  Anyway, I have always thought that someone paid the developer to throw together a new proposal just to sway voters (which I think worked), but it was clear the housing was never going to happen.

^To your point (and I'd love to hear the professional opinions on the board since mine is decidedly not) it seemed to me the riverfront option was even less conducive but it served to drive other projects.

 

The original FWW precluded any building of GABP where it sits and building it in the same footprint of Riverfront/Cinergy was not an option.  The realignment of FWW was on and I wonder if the two were symbiotic/dependent in a political will sense.

 

Even the realignment didn't make enough room.  I have always thought that "the Gap" was a marketing ploy to cover structural/space restraints.  Sold as a unique feature of the stadium when really it was necessitated by the tight quarters.  "It's not "the wedge" site it's "Baseball on Main"  A way to architecturally move the left grandstand closer to the field and fit the park in.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I'm not sold on either stadium site in particular, but I'm okay with the way things turned out. Having the stadium by the river has helped enable the Banks to be what it is/is becoming. I think businesses like TBKILTBAG and Johnny Rockets are appropriate for the riverfront, but much less so for Pendleton, and attempting to draw the stadium crowds has largely set the tone for businesses opening at the Banks: offerings for a less urban-oriented crowd.

 

Having two stadiums, one which is only used 10 nights a year, is absurd IMO. A new arena and/or more mixed-use Banks and/or park development where PBS is would have been preferable. A casino could have fit as well. But that has little to do with BWC.

 

We'll see what happens with the casino. I'm not at all happy with its front lawn. I'm not convinced it will bring patrons to the nearby neighborhood. I do think people will choose it over the riverboat casinos.

 

I think this site for the casino is a gamble (whoa, just realized the punniness...not intended) for the city. It's a corner of the basin that has very little going on and I could easily see it serving as an island. I'll definitely be watching intently to see what happens with the surrounding area. It will likely make a good case study for people interested in the potential impact of a casino, because it could be very transformative or it could sit in a relative bubble while OTR development branches north to Findlay Market instead of east to the casino site.

Well my view at the time was that the stadium could have begun construction at Broadway much sooner, the view opening to Mt. Adams would have been truly unique, and this would have solidified the Main Street bar district while expediting the development of a housing component in that area.  This was the heyday of Main Street, and many thought we could develop an area similar to Wrigleyville or more likely LoDo in Denver, which had recently gone through a major transformation once Coors Field was built.  In fact there were many buyers just waiting on the location to be decided.

 

Broadway would have been a ballpark much more integrated into a neighborhood/city grid setting, and the fact that GABP (and PBS) sat as an island, detached from the city by freeways and empty lots for so many years solidified my view that we made the wrong choice.  I am happy to see the Banks (especially with a housing component and Lager House) underway and the initial phases of greenspace are great so that as well as the simple passage of time have tempered my initial disdain for the choice, though.  Well that and the fact that the streetcar can be the glue that holds everything together and the driver of more OTR housing.

Would have been interesting to see how the riots would have interacted with the stadium and surrounding development, had it been built at BWC. It could have been very bad, or the stadium's presence could have prevented OTR from taking as big a hit as it did.

 

I don't think we can state with any confidence that things would be better if the stadium had been built there. Maybe we'd be a few years ahead in downtown development, but there could have been a butterfly effect which would have kept us from getting where we are today.

 

If the neighborhood had not been allowed to go through "the seven stages of grief" after the death of Timothy Thomas, if these were stifled by the momentum of the stadium, OTR's progress may have been stunted. 3CDC may not have gotten the fire in its belly, and longtime residents may not have been as receptive to the neighborhood clean-up which is almost universally understood as positive at this point.

natininja, you make an excellent point...one that I was thinking about myself. I actually think having the stadium there could have hurt the city's image more. I can just imagine pictures in national newspapers and on ESPN of the Red's stadium on fire, people protesting outside. At the end of the day, our baseball team is part of the "brand" of the city -- it's oftentime what people from other cities and countires associate with Cincinnati first and foremost. 

I highly doubt there was enough of a disturbance to set a stadium on fire, and it would have been secured.  Anyway, some have argued had Broadway been built, it would have been a different neighborhood and there probably would not have even been the broken windows at some of the Main Street bars.  We are where we are now, and I realize this cannot be changed, but I still wonder what OTR would be today with ballpark at Broadway.

 

With that said, there are some really good, sustainable things going on today, and as mentioned we might not have 3CDC driving so much new development had history played out differently.

Building the ballpark at BC could have caused Downtown and OTR to flourish like LoDo in Denver, but I kind of doubt it would.  I think a more likely scenario would be that the ballpark would have had the same impact that Jacobs Field had on Downtown Cleveland...which is to say minimal.  OTR might have seen a bit of a boom, but Fountain Square and the surroundings probably would have felt very little imapact due to the jail and surrounding dead zone in the NE portion of the CBD.  Traffic would have been a complete mess before and after big games, fireworks would be much more complicated (particularly due to 71 being right there), and the parking situation would have been terrible.  I can imagine slum lords in OTR and Pendleton razing their buildings to create parking lots for the stadium.

 

At least the casino will see year round action, so there will be activity on the site at all times, instead of just the seasonal effect the stadium would have had.  I honestly don't see the casino having a huge spillover effect for the rest of downtown or OTR, but I do think it could cause more people and conventions to visit the city who otherwise might not, which will obviously positively impact downtown.

 

Great post, Sherman!

I didn't mean to suggest the stadium might have burned during the riots, more that attendance might have been affected and spillover to the neighborhood may have ceased to be as strong.

Building the ballpark at BC could have caused Downtown and OTR to flourish like LoDo in Denver, but I kind of doubt it would.  I think a more likely scenario would be that the ballpark would have had the same impact that Jacobs Field had on Downtown Cleveland...which is to say minimal.  OTR might have seen a bit of a boom, but Fountain Square and the surroundings probably would have felt very little imapact due to the jail and surrounding dead zone in the NE portion of the CBD.  Traffic would have been a complete mess before and after big games, fireworks would be much more complicated (particularly due to 71 being right there), and the parking situation would have been terrible.  I can imagine slum lords in OTR and Pendleton razing their buildings to create parking lots for the stadium.

 

At least the casino will see year round action, so there will be activity on the site at all times, instead of just the seasonal effect the stadium would have had.  I honestly don't see the casino having a huge spillover effect for the rest of downtown or OTR, but I do think it could cause more people and conventions to visit the city who otherwise might not, which will obviously positively impact downtown.

 

Great post, Sherman!

 

I don't see a huge spillover like what is happening in downtown cleveland and their casino (because its in their CBD). But i do see increased activity downtown as whole. Where people will make a night of it. Go down and get dinner then go to the casino. But you may not notice a whole bunch of people walking around the immediate area of the casino.

 

EDIT: I meant less lazy, not more.  Replaced with ambitious.  That's what I get for writing while tuning out drone-like colleagues.

 

The more there is to do downtown, the more ambitious Cincinnatians will be at pursuing entertainment.  I can see patrons walking (or taking transit) from Broadway Commons to OTR or from the riverfront to Broadway Commons.  Downtown Cincinnati is no one-trick pony, and it´s only becoming more complex and entertaining.

 

I maintain that an NBA-ready arena was the best use of the Broadway Commons site.  An arena would have provided foot traffic for OTR before and after games & concerts and would´ve been a strong bet to undercut nearby metros from hosting sports tournaments (Dayton, Indianapolis) and major concert dates (Cleveland).  It would have stimulated the downtown housing market in a major way by proximity alone, not to mention all of the new establishments to feed demand.  I could have even seen the NBA becoming interested in a market with such a dynamic downtown and 3.2 million in the immediate region.

The more there is to do downtown, the lazier Cincinnatians will be.

 

This must be a typo.... It doesn't even make sense, especially that you follow it with saying more people will be walking around.

 

 

I could have even seen the NBA becoming interested in a market with such a dynamic downtown and 3.2 million in the immediate region.

 

Just to be clear, the entire Cincy metro is 2.2 million, not 3.2 (that's about minneapolis's size)

The more there is to do downtown, the lazier Cincinnatians will be.

 

This must be a typo.... It doesn't even make sense, especially that you follow it with saying more people will be walking around.

 

 

I could have even seen the NBA becoming interested in a market with such a dynamic downtown and 3.2 million in the immediate region.

 

Just to be clear, the entire Cincy metro is 2.2 million, not 3.2 (that's about minneapolis's size)

 

Corrected that major typo, read above.  As for the Cinti metro, it says in my post that the "immediate region" is 3.2 million.  Dayton is part of the immediate SW Ohio region even if the Census Bureau is confused.

^ Gotcha.  ya, counting Dayton adds about another 850,000 to the region's population.

Great photos and update, Sherman.

 

I hope I live to see the day that the Broadway Commons space is replaced with a new Reds stadium that will replace the (at some point in the future) outdated Great American Ballpark.

 

Building the ballpark at BC could have caused Downtown and OTR to flourish like LoDo in Denver, but I kind of doubt it would.  I think a more likely scenario would be that the ballpark would have had the same impact that Jacobs Field had on Downtown Cleveland...which is to say minimal.

 

Really cannot add much to this discussion as, being from up north, I really don't know the area that well (although I have at least been in the general vicinity in the past) or the history of building the ball park on the site (as well as no real knowledge of other developments proposed there) except for some "cocktail party" chat with friends from Cincy when the ballpark was first proposed years ago.

 

That said I was much amazed by gem of a quote above.  Clearly the poster does not have a clue what Prospect, Huron or East 4th Streets were like pre Jacobs Field (in the 1980's or early 90's) and what the construction of Jacobs Field and The Gund (still cannot call them Progressive Field or Quicken Loans Area) did to the area.  Basically blocks of abandoned or semi abandoned buildings (first floors in use but upper floors vacant) and streets you would not want to walk down.  Not the case from the late 90's onward. 

 

 

It's this simple, people: The stadiums and The Banks happened to improve the value of the 4th and 3rd St. properties owned by Western-Southern and Carl Lindner.  They were the force behind Fort Washington Way and everything else.  I think people here are a little naive as to how much control over local affairs a handful of wealthy people have over use of government resources to improve their poperty values. 

 

The housing proposal from the Atlanta company was not a real proposal.  It was the big money getting a favor from that developer to distract the public from what they were doing.  The jail business was a scare tactic --  it made going to a stadium dangerous 3 or 4 times a year, but it somehow wasn't dangerous for residents of this condo complex who lived there year round. 

 

I believe Jim Tarbell was earnest in his attempt to have the stadium built at Broadway, but at the same time he is quite smooth in how he uses issues to benefit his political career.  I don't think that he really thought he could beat the big money, but he knew that the protracted fight would be good for strengthening his name recognition in the area. 

 

 

 

There was a post a while back where John Schneider had some great inside on how the stadium deal (GABP) went down.  In the streetcar thread it think. 

It's this simple, people: The stadiums and The Banks happened to improve the value of the 4th and 3rd St. properties owned by Western-Southern and Carl Lindner.  They were the force behind Fort Washington Way and everything else.  I think people here are a little naive as to how much control over local affairs a handful of wealthy people have over use of government resources to improve their poperty values. 

 

The housing proposal from the Atlanta company was not a real proposal.  It was the big money getting a favor from that developer to distract the public from what they were doing.  The jail business was a scare tactic --  it made going to a stadium dangerous 3 or 4 times a year, but it somehow wasn't dangerous for residents of this condo complex who lived there year round. 

 

I believe Jim Tarbell was earnest in his attempt to have the stadium built at Broadway, but at the same time he is quite smooth in how he uses issues to benefit his political career.  I don't think that he really thought he could beat the big money, but he knew that the protracted fight would be good for strengthening his name recognition in the area.

 

Same could be said about the streetcar...

There was a post a while back where John Schneider had some great inside on how the stadium deal (GABP) went down.  In the streetcar thread it think.

 

haha of course it was in the streetcar thread...

 

I have to agree with edale that if Broadway Commons was used as the site of the Reds ballpark, there would have been significant demolitions in Pendleton and OTR for surface parking lots.

 

I think the way this all turned out is positive for the city (regardless of the involvement of W&S or others who stood to profit). If the Reds were at Broadway Commons, the Banks would hardly be a desireable place. The way it stands now there is momentum along Vine Street, Washington Park, Broadway Commons, The Banks, and Fountain Square/CBD as well as the stability in Main Street. Not to mention that the skyline shots of Cincinnati look phenomenal when both stadiums are lit up on the river at night. Just watch the Sunday Night Football game when we host the Steelers (October 21).

Meanwhile, Pittsburgh also built two new stadiums practically side-by-side. I think their baseball stadium is much nicer than ours but I don't like the football stadium as much. 

PNC Park is phenomenol. What they have done with the North Shore is remarkable too. The view from PNC Park is second to none. You look directly at Downtown Pittsburgh, something that would be very difficult in Cincinnati short of building it across the river. You would think Cincinnati is in some podunk town like (no offense) Portsmouth based on the view from home plate at GABP. I like GABP, but the view from it is nothing special.

 

I can't speak for Heinz Field since I haven't been there, but I think the inside of PBS is abysmal. It looks amazing in a skyline shot, but the inside is drab and shows almost no pride for Cincinnati or the Bengals. It appears as though they simply ran out of money and refuse to put any into decorating. Take a look at Ford Field (Lions) or Lucas Oil Stadium (Colts) to see how to decorate the insdide of a football stadium (I realize both examples are indoor stadiums, but they do an excellent job).  A few lonely banners hang on the lower level letting you know where you are but aside from that it is overly crowded and boring. GABP feels very open while walking through campared to PBS. I realize that PBS was celebrated for its design (70+% of seats are along the sideline, which is high compared to most stadiums), but I think it does nothing for the fans attending the games.

 

Lucas Oil:

http://d6673sr63mbv7.cloudfront.net/archive/x647574512/Super-Bowl-Hallway-jpg/g000000000000000000e49b86545172b2cbd5ac23c0fadd54c3fc8ac29f.jpg[/img]

 

Ford Field:

 

I was going to include photos of PBS's interior for comparison, but it is so unremarkable I don't think there is a single image of it on the internet. Let me know if you find one.

^I think this was gone over at some point on this forum, but apparently MLB dictates which direction the baseball diamond must face.  Something to do with having the batters not staring into the sun at certain points during the game, I think.  If that's the case, there isn't much that could have been done about the view from GABP, short of moving its location entirely.

^I think this was gone over at some point on this forum, but apparently MLB dictates which direction the baseball diamond must face.  Something to do with having the batters not staring into the sun at certain points during the game, I think.  If that's the case, there isn't much that could have been done about the view from GABP, short of moving its location entirely.

 

This is not correct.  MLB stadiums face a variety of directions and MLB does not prohibit any particular orientation.

 

Personally, I would have designed GABP so the batter faces Mt. Adams.  Imagine a night game in which the view beyond the outfield wall was of Mt. Adams and the Immaculata lit up high above the stadium.

^Hmmm... well, that's what someone on this board said.  Maybe in another Broadway Commons thread or a GABP thread.  Not worth searching for though if it is incorrect.  I wonder why they picked the current orientation then. 

 

//EDIT: Thanks to the posters below.  Great info!

I don't know whether it is required still or not per the above comment, but baseball diamonds did all used to face more or less the same way with the pitcher facing west toward home plate due to the sun (I thought I recalled GABP was under some guidelines for orientation when it was designed).  This is also the genesis of the term "southpaw", a left-handed pitcher because his arm was always to the south (as he was facing west).

^ "It is desirable that the line from home base through the pitchers plate to second base shall run East Northeast." - Official Baseball Rules, section 1.04.

 

This website has diagrams of the orientation of all thirty MLB ballparks.

Cool find!

I didn't mean to suggest the stadium might have burned during the riots, more that attendance might have been affected and spillover to the neighborhood may have ceased to be as strong.

 

I think you see will Reds fans from the tristate region coming to more Reds games, more often, and staying longer so they can venture over to the Casino.

(mixing in a Reds weekend and gaming)

 

I was 100% on board with GABP @Broadway Commons. I thought that would have been a great location for a ball park. And with 81 home games a

season it would have jump started a ton of new construction and renovation in OTR and Pendleton.

 

Nice that the banks seems to be very popular and I do like GABP.

 

Back around 1993, a baseball field was painted on the ground. I wonder how much green paint it took to cover all of that asphalt! It looked really strange on the ground because it was sloped, but it showed up in aerial photos and looked really nice. They also constructed an entrance gate. Jim Tarbell led the effort. It would be neat to see photos of that.

 

 

I may have one somewhere, Tarbell even had a mock entrance to the park constructed as well.  There was actually a photo in the Enquirer taken of it with me talking with Jim Tarbell when the shot was taken.  I will see if I can find it.

 

I definitely have shots from one of his rallies at Broadway Commons.  I'll scan them sometime. 

There used to be a bunch of broadway commons pictures memorabilia lying around upstairs at grammars when it first reopened. Not sure what happened to it though.

PNC Park is phenomenol. What they have done with the North Shore is remarkable too. The view from PNC Park is second to none. You look directly at Downtown Pittsburgh, something that would be very difficult in Cincinnati short of building it across the river. You would think Cincinnati is in some podunk town like (no offense) Portsmouth based on the view from home plate at GABP. I like GABP, but the view from it is nothing special.

 

I can't speak for Heinz Field since I haven't been there, but I think the inside of PBS is abysmal. It looks amazing in a skyline shot, but the inside is drab and shows almost no pride for Cincinnati or the Bengals. It appears as though they simply ran out of money and refuse to put any into decorating. Take a look at Ford Field (Lions) or Lucas Oil Stadium (Colts) to see how to decorate the insdide of a football stadium (I realize both examples are indoor stadiums, but they do an excellent job).  A few lonely banners hang on the lower level letting you know where you are but aside from that it is overly crowded and boring. GABP feels very open while walking through campared to PBS. I realize that PBS was celebrated for its design (70+% of seats are along the sideline, which is high compared to most stadiums), but I think it does nothing for the fans attending the games.

 

Lucas Oil:

http://d6673sr63mbv7.cloudfront.net/archive/x647574512/Super-Bowl-Hallway-jpg/g000000000000000000e49b86545172b2cbd5ac23c0fadd54c3fc8ac29f.jpg[/img]

 

Ford Field:

 

I was going to include photos of PBS's interior for comparison, but it is so unremarkable I don't think there is a single image of it on the internet. Let me know if you find one.

 

Apples and oranges.  You are comparing the interior space of Ford Field and Lucus Oil (both domes) to PBS, which is an open air stadium.  The concourses in a dome are fully enclosed and finished.  Open air concourses are essentially exposed to the elements.  They are always going to look more stark. 

 

If you go to other new open air stadiums in the NFL, their concourses look more like PBS than like the pictures you posted.  I have been to Cleveland, NY and Denver's new stadiums and they are much more like PBS. 

 

PBS could do a little more to upgrade the concourses, but there isn't anything terribly wrong with the way they are now.  They are more or less in line with what you will find at other open air stadiums of the same vintage.

Heinz Field (outdoor):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/GreatHallEntrance.jpg[/img]

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6102/6255229487_cb38e25b38_b.jpg[/img]

 

"In 2007, the Great Hall (at Heinz Field pictured above) was named the best concourse at an NFL stadium by writer Bill Evans, in an article for ESPN.com." - Wikipedia

 

This opened one year after PBS. It's as if they actually have pride in their team or something. Heinz Field was also much cheaper than PBS ($281 M vs $455 M), though that number may be skewed because some claim that FWW work was paid for with PBS, though I'm sure both stadiums had to elevate out of the flood plain being right along the river. (We (I) might be getting a little off-topic, though)

Does Heinz Field also include several acres of practice fields?  My guess is the land acquisition for PBS was higher and there wasn't all the overtime.  The failed effort to repeal the county sales tax in 1996 acted to delay land acquisition and grounbreaking, which forced thousands of hours of overtime to be paid. 

That does look cool, but PBS is more typical of NFL open-air concourses than Heinz.  Keep in mind that Heinz Field is home to not only the Steelers (maybe the most popular team in the NFL), but also Pitt football.  So it isnt surprising that more is invested in Heinz.

That does look cool, but PBS is more typical of NFL open-air concourses than Heinz.  Keep in mind that Heinz Field is home to not only the Steelers (maybe the most popular team in the NFL), but also Pitt football.  So it isnt surprising that more is invested in Heinz.

 

I would guess the Packers have the highest net favorability

Is that great hall exposed much to the elements?

^^Agreed though Steelers are probably second.

 

^I believe the Great Hall is covered (by the seats above), but not enclosed. Correct me if I am wrong though.

 

I don't know exactly what the cost of the respective stadiums included. I doubt that delaying several months added upwards of $200 Million to the cost. For instance, I don't know if PBS funds paid for the parking lot adjacent to it, street widening, streetscape improvements, etc. Likewise, I don't know if Heinz Field paid for these improvements with their associated costs either. I also don't know what the land value is for Heinz Field's location or PBS. I also don't know who owned the land on both sites or what the property values were that the parties had to pay to take the land.

 

What I do know is that Heinz Field cost significantly less to build and IMHO they got a much better product out of it. We constructed one of the most expensive open-air NFL stadiums in history (after Met Life Stadium: NYG, NYJ and Lincoln Financial Field: Eagles) and it is an "average" facility with no flair. Unfortunately it is very difficult to actually pin down construction costs because numbers range from $330 M to $1 B depending on who you ask*. Officially it is recognized as $455 Million.

 

*The low estimate of $800 by Bob Bedinghaus and $62 Trillion by Tom Luken have been eliminated as anomalies.