Flats terminal project getting new leaders

Wednesday, January 25, 2006

Grant Segall

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The International Community Council is getting a new director, a new president, and maybe new helpers and goals for the B&O Railroad Terminal.

 

Leaders are trying to book a meeting sometime next month for the council, the Cleveland Metroparks and the Western Reserve Historical Society. The topic: possible roles for those two groups in the council's drive to turn the 1897 Flats terminal into an international center....

 

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Flats terminal project getting new leaders

Here are two pics of the building - it's such a cool building, hopefully they get going on its restoration:

 

 

Imagine how beautiful that shot would be if this building is rehabbed and the surrounding area is cleaned up.

The old station also had a cupola on top (see 1922 pic below). Any word on whether that's going to be restored?

 

 

The B&O Station also had a train shed. This 1927 view is looking south from the area of the Erie Railroad station. You can see the new supports for the Cleveland Union Terminal (and future RTA) viaduct over the Cuyahoga Valley.

 

 

Below, you can see more of the B&O Station's train shed and its cupola at right, as well as the Erie Station to the left (later Diamond Jim's restaurant and then Shorty's), and of course, Cleveland Union Terminal in all its glory in 1930, three months before train service to it was inaugurated.

 

Glad to hear they've stabilized it.

What will the impact of the decision over where to locate the Convention Center have on this project? 

I'd be curious for input from those of you more familiar with the Flats;  a friend of mine is involved in this B&O terminal project and I mentioned to him that it is a timely development since the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad is also pursuing extending their tourist trains into the Flats.  Can any of you tell me how close the CVSR's proposed line comes to the former B&O terminal?  Just thinking this might be a possible destination point once the CVSR's extended service starts running. 

 

BTW: the CVSR is working with the Ohio Rail Development Commission and other entities to make this service extension happen.  It might not be for a while yet, but all involved see it as an attractive project.

Here is a link to google map of this area (bottom right near the "canal road" label)

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=cleveland,+oh&ll=41.495536,-81.691933&spn=0.003038,0.009795&t=h

 

from walking this area and from the photos, it looks like the tracks for the CVSR currently stop at the tower city ampitheater and maybe a little further - the reason for having the initial connection below tower city.  i don't think the tracks get close to the old B&O building any more.   the tracks look they stop completely before SW:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=cleveland,+oh&t=h&ll=41.495948,-81.692432&spn=0.000759,0.002449&t=h

 

is this correct?  are there still ROWs in this area that have been paved over?

It almost looks as if the tracks could be pushed through around the curve in the Riverfront.... but I don't know if that would get trains close to the B&O terminal.  Worth exploring though.  I would bet there are old rails that either got ripped uyp or were paved over as you suggest urbanlife.

I know several government agencies participated in a "Memo of Understanding" supporting the concept of a downtown terminus for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad ("CVSR").  One of the proposals from several years ago had the railroad following the north bank of the Cuyahoga river into downtown with either a depot in the Tower City complex or alternative location. The old B&O station further west along the riverbank past Sherwin Williams facilities would make a spectacular depot and would be a great way to link to the Towpath Trail, Lake Link, and other renovation efforts.  Does anyone know how the current casino site plan behind Tower City would impact the plan to bring the CVSR into downtown Cleveland?  Have they included the CVSR memo of understanding in the design plans? 

 

 

Hi mb11, in the CVSR thread (in the transportation section), there is a discussion of the two alternative routes into downtown. One is difficult: the existing CSX-owned right of way below the RTA tracks and Ontario Street. The other is more difficult: a collection of long-abandoned (for 30 years) rail corridors from the area below I-490 and Tremont, over Scranton Peninsula, and to the area between the B&O Depot and Settlers Landing (the general area of Canal Basin Park). The second option, while avoiding much of active CSX track, requires restablishing long-gone or inoperable bridges, including the mothballed (er, heavily decayed) ex-Conrail life bridge next to the Carter Road lift bridge and the B&O station. My guesstimate of restoring the more difficult line? Perhaps $100 million. The less difficult (CSX) option MAY cost half that. And extending that past the casino site to the B&O station may not be on anyone's radar.

KJP:  Thanks for the update and you have a done a great job in providing information on the various routes, obstacles, and cost estimates!!! 

 

It seems like the CSX route is the more reasonable alternative.  However, I do think there would be significant spin-off benefits of extending the tracks to the B&O station.  This location could provide the key link to all of the key projects currently underway including the Towpath, Canal Basin, Flats East Bank, Lake Link Trails, as well as a links to Tower City, Casinos, Warehouse District and Public Square.  This would be a truly unique historic redevelopment project that would leverage benefits for multiple projects.  Unfortunately, Cleveland has had a history of projects that "cannibalize" rather than “complement” existing projects. 

 

The Forest City Convention Center/Casino draft drawings appear to provide access for CVSR tracks further east near “Collision Bend”.  Do you know if it would be possible to "move" the B&O station further east to this location?  I know that several buildings were moved in Detroit to make way for Comerica Park and Ford Field (e.g., The Gem Theater).  There are obviously some significant drawbacks with this alternative (e.g., cost of moving the building, leaving an "empty" site at the current location, etc.), but re-use of this station into a functioning railroad depot could provide Cleveland with a very significant redevelopment opportunity that has the potential to become one of Ohio’s top tourist attractions. 

 

If you can find a really rich guy, like the one who moved London Bridge to Arizona, then anything is possible. But at this point I wouldn't bank on moving the B&O station -- especially to a casino site that is so space-constrained that the developers want to narrow the river channel. It would almost certainly cost less to extend CVSR through to the B&O station -- for now. After the casino is built, I couldn't say.

This photo is a little old (1979?) but it shows that it would be possible to site a Red Line station with stair/escalator/elevator access from a rehabbed and re-utilized B&O station:

Look at how many rapid trains are there!

There's a one-car Airporter train at far left and a six-car Bluebird train inbound. The ridership today on the Red Line is one-third of what it was in the 1960s, but higher than what it was in the 1990s.

 

It could be a decent station site for the Red Line if CVSR came into the B&O depot (that puts this message back on topic!) and if the Waterfront Line ran daily, as the Settlers Landing station is below the Red Line.

are there any pictures of the interior of this building

I don't think I've ever seen one.

d@mn it would be cool to see. Who owns it?

Here's a rendering from about 8-10 years ago, when they were going to turn it into the Cleveland International Heritage Center.

 

Can you imagine the marketing potential of depot like this for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad?  A picture perfect postcard image for the "new" and "old" Cleveland!!!  A renovated B&O terminal would provide passengers with a “destination” station rather than the current “passenger loading" platform off Rockside Road.  This would truly be unique one-of-kind asset for entire metropolitan region and the only National Park in the US with a direct transit link to 2 central business districts (i.e., Downtown Cleveland and Downtown Akron). 

 

This would open up an opportunity to significantly expand ridership in the metropolitan area as a downtown station would be much more accessible for city and suburban residents on the East and West sides of Cleveland.  In addition, a downtown station could provide the opportunity to expand the current tour schedules.  How about a sample of the following….

 

•  Expanded Polar Express and Winter tours

•  Expanded Wine, Beer, and Whiskey Tasting tours

•  Expanded Fall Foliage, Halloween and Thanksgiving tours

•  Summer Tour:  Cuyahoga Valley Baseball Double Header (Aeros in the afternoon, Indians in the evening)

•  Cleveland History Tours (nature, industrial, transportation, and architectural)

•  Fall Tour:  Browns Town Sundays

•  Downtown Shopping tours linked with Tower City

•  Dinner Tours linked to the Casinos

 

Hopefully the current obstacles can be overcome and a dream of a downtown station can become a reality in the near future. 

That is a beautiful rendering.

 

mb11 your post makes way way too much sense!