"Are there an additional 3 million visitors per year "out there" to get to the 8 million visitor expectation for the two casinos combined?"

 

If you put the Caesars name on phase 2, I think there are...

If they want to get more visitors then the state should amend its law prohibiting complimentary alcoholic beverages at the casino. I'm not a gambler or a drinker, but those I've spoken to say comp drinks are that important to them in deciding whether to pay extra to go to Vegas or keep their spending local.

^Are you saying we should have special alcohol laws for the four casinos or this should be the case for the thousands of other drinking establishments and restaurants in the state of Ohio.  If not, I cannot understand how you can favor one type of business over another in this regard (either ethically, economically or legally).

Htsguy, I get what you're saying, but I don't think allowing other restaurants and bars in Ohio to give away alcohol for free means they will.  They have no incentive to do so.  Will Tilted Kilt say, "Oh, the casino is giving out free beer?  So will we!"  Bars and restaurants make all their money on alcohol.  The casino does not.  (although judging by the lines I've seen at the casino bars, they're definitely making SOME money on it)

 

I worry what free booze at the casino would do for surrounding businesses.

^Maybe I'm not doing it right, but I've never been comped more than one or two drinks (very watered down drinks, I might add) whenever I've gambled in Vegas. Plus, I'd point out that the drinks aren't technically 'free'. You're paying for them by losing money at the Casino.

 

^Entertain dollars are scarce.  This would just give the casinos one more advantage in chasing after those dollars.  I can guarantee you that the tavern and restaurant industry lobby will howl long and hard if this were proposed (not to mention the Carrie Nation lobby which would oppose any weakening of Ohio's liquor laws)

If they want to get more visitors then the state should amend its law prohibiting complimentary alcoholic beverages at the casino. I'm not a gambler or a drinker, but those I've spoken to say comp drinks are that important to them in deciding whether to pay extra to go to Vegas or keep their spending local.

 

It might make sense if it was packaged in a way that also allowed beer and wine producers to offer free samples as well, including samples in stores.  The Ohio law is a bit restrictive in this sense, and although there are ways around it - by charging a quarter, giving credit for a tasting toward purchase, or just looking the other way - it may make sense to amend.

 

I could see a very targeted amendment that allowed grocery stores, wine and beer producers, and the casinos to offer alcoholic beverages without fee.  Or a new category of liquor permit, or add on, that would permit this activity.

If they want to get more visitors then the state should amend its law prohibiting complimentary alcoholic beverages at the casino. I'm not a gambler or a drinker, but those I've spoken to say comp drinks are that important to them in deciding whether to pay extra to go to Vegas or keep their spending local.

 

Between this and smoking, it certainly drags down the Horseshoe. Another problem is that the Horseshoe's payout is somewhat low - 88 percent. Most casinos run above 90 percent. If word gets around that the slots are tight, that could be an issue in drawing in new gamblers.

 

Interestingly, Erie's Presque Isle Downs and the Horseshoe pretty much tied in slots revenue for the month of June. The difference was that PI paid out better and the Horseshoe is killing them at the tables - at $25 a table and triple the number of tables, that certainly helps too. The June PA table numbers aren't out yet but there's no way PI will come close. The Shoe had over $7 million. PI will be lucky to hit $2 million. (http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012307119897)

 

Adding amenities will help draw new gamblers too.  I'm still curious to see what happens to the Shoe once local racinos pop up. That may factor into just how large and elaborate they decide to do Phase 2.

I don't understand why they don't lower their drink prices to like $2 for a beer, $2.50 for a mixed drink. I would have no problem paying that. Also would incentive people to come to the casino and they are within the law. Maybe once the Hype dies down, the slots will loosen up, min. bets will come down on table games, and drink prices will lower. But if they are filling the place up, they aren't going to make any changes yet.

I'm used to paying $5-$8 for a beer and $8-$12 for a mixed drink when out to eat... and get multiples...  This $3-$5 pricing I've heard about would seem to be a steal, in comparison. And airfare to Las Vegas to get free drinks would seem a lot more expensive than paying for a few drinks.

I'm used to paying $5-$8 for a beer and $8-$12 for a mixed drink when out to eat... and get multiples...  This $3-$5 pricing I've heard about would seem to be a steal, in comparison. And airfare to Las Vegas to get free drinks would seem a lot more expensive than paying for a few drinks.

 

You'd have to be one hell of an alcoholic to recoup that money spent on flying and a hotel.

Is it also against state law to distribute tokens or coupons for cut-rate drinks, or do they already do this?  I haven't stepped foot in a casino in years, and even then I never gambled, and that was before I could drink anyways.  Not sure how it works in Vegas vs. other places.

I'm used to paying $5-$8 for a beer and $8-$12 for a mixed drink when out to eat... and get multiples...  This $3-$5 pricing I've heard about would seem to be a steal, in comparison. And airfare to Las Vegas to get free drinks would seem a lot more expensive than paying for a few drinks.

 

You'd have to be one hell of an alcoholic to recoup that money spent on flying and a hotel.

 

challenge accepted!

I don't understand why they don't lower their drink prices to like $2 for a beer, $2.50 for a mixed drink.

 

I do.  Because people are willing to pay the higher costs.  I'm sure they've done cost analysis to determine what would bring them the most profit.  If they were hurting, they might lower drink prices, but they're not.

This project is in engineering. The Parking deck/pedastal to elevate the casino to be level with Huron should be under construction in 9-18 months. The actual Phase II of the Casino will take an additional 2 years to build. So in about 4 years the project will be complete.

This should be fascinating to watch... Much more so than phase one will this effect several aspects of the city... The river, tower city food court, theater, walkway to gateway, rapid track entrance, and most of all building an entire side to Huron where there is now nothing. It will eliminate many problems and eyesores with something that will hopefully be great looking. Can't wait to see some activity.

This project is in engineering. The Parking deck/pedastal to elevate the casino to be level with Huron should be under construction in 9-18 months. The actual Phase II of the Casino will take an additional 2 years to build. So in about 4 years the project will be complete.

 

Wow. So will we be seeing any renderings soon? I'm concerned that the parking deck won't leave enough room to develop along the river.

This information is in sharp contrast to a statement made by the general manger of the casino last week (I would imagine I read the article some place on this board but maybe not) where he stated (to paraphase) when asked directly about Phase 2 that they were still evaluating Phase 2 based on the performance of Phase 1.

 

If what is stated above is true he is either out of the loop (doubt this) or was purposely trying to hold back information from the reporter when asked a direct question.  Given this I would like to know where Mov2Ohio obtained his information.

I got this info from Joe Marinucci President and CEO of the Downtown Cleveland Alliance, who got his info from the casino operators.

 

There was no mention of when renderings will be publicly released.

I'm concerned that the parking deck won't leave enough room to develop along the river.

 

Do you expect the footprint to extend beyond Canal Road?

I'd like to see a 25-foot overhead clearance on the existing, open-air Tower City parking lot between Huron and Canal roads be preserved for a station for Amtrak, commuter rail, Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad and future high-speed rail. Without this clearance below all structures built in this footprint, none of those railroad services will ever be able to return to the former Cleveland Union Terminal again.

 

See pictures and discussion here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11674.0.html

 

Like these......

 

 

^Talk about important to the city!

 

Is the CVSR at the table regarding engineering or the future use of rail to the casino?  Or Amtrak for that matter?  They NEED to be...

Is the CVSR at the table regarding engineering or the future use of rail to the casino?  Or Amtrak for that matter?  They NEED to be...

 

Very good point, especially after the MM/CC debacle.  "What train tracks?  Oh the ones right there.  Oops.  We'll put up some bushes to hide them."

^Talk about important to the city!

 

Is the CVSR at the table regarding engineering or the future use of rail to the casino?  Or Amtrak for that matter?  They NEED to be...

 

I'll ask Joe from DCA if he knows anything about that aspect. That would be a huge missed opportunity if he new building couldn't accommodate future rail lines.

I'm concerned that the parking deck won't leave enough room to develop along the river.

 

Do you expect the footprint to extend beyond Canal Road?

 

I suppose I don't know what to expect really.  We could really use some coastal development regs that ensure public access to (and along) the river/lake. Only then I'd stop worrying. I've said it before regarding our well-being, we put way too much faith in the hands of developers in this town.

This city would take a HUGE setback IF the CVSR or high-speed rail would not be able to enter Tower City.  That needs to be able to happen, and should be a priority for not only the casino, but the residents of Cleveland and the entire region as well.  There shouldn't be a question about if they should be at the table- they NEED to be.

So we will likely know something for sure this time next year. Start the timer.

This city would take a HUGE setback IF the CVSR or high-speed rail would not be able to enter Tower City.  That needs to be able to happen, and should be a priority for not only the casino, but the residents of Cleveland and the entire region as well.  There shouldn't be a question about if they should be at the table- they NEED to be.

 

So is anyone with authority making sure this is brought to the forefront of discussion? I have a feeling this aspect will be totally ignored.

This project is in engineering. The Parking deck/pedastal to elevate the casino to be level with Huron should be under construction in 9-18 months. The actual Phase II of the Casino will take an additional 2 years to build. So in about 4 years the project will be complete.

 

I think we are all hoping that the "pedestal" creates room for tracks underneath the casino's Phase II.  The devil is in the details

^Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Mov2Ohio is using the term "pedestal" more  as descriptive word for the base of the actual casino building (which will be the parking garage not an actual pedestal as you may be imagining it).  I am pretty sure the parking garage will be built to the ground and be massive.

Preserving the potential for a restoration of the “rights of way” (“ROW”) for rail (e.g., Amtrak, CVSRR, regional rail, and high speed rail) should be a primary consideration in any development plans and zoning approvals for Phase II of the casino operations.  Preservation of the ROW’s is not mutually exclusive or incompatible with developing the site.  This not an “either/or” proposition. 

 

The Van Swearingen’s original plans for the Terminal Tower complex envisioned further development of all of the “air rights” in the immediate area.  Unfortunately, only a fraction of their plans were fully realized (e.g., Higbees, the Landmark Office complex, Post Office, and Stouffers Hotel).  Two key sites (e.g., the corner of Huron Road and Ontario, and the triangular site at the corner of Superior and Huron) have awaited development for years. 

 

KJP has done some excellent research and numerous posts on the topic……

 

Gilbert has done some great work in Detroit and is one of the key leaders driving many of the development efforts, including the plans for a light rail rapid transit line on Woodward Avenue between downtown and Mid-town Cultural District and New Center areas. 

 

Maximizing the potential of all transportation links at Tower City (e.g., parking, rapid transit, direct rail link to the airport, potential  Amtrak-regional rail hub, links to a National Park via the CVSRR, riverside docks, etc.) would be in the best interest of both the casino and the city. 

 

As I have indicated in previous posts, Tower City is one of Cleveland’s most underappreciated and underutilized assets.  Let’s hope all of the key stakeholders can work together to make sure the ROW’s can be maintained and the development potential of downtown Cleveland can be finally realized. 

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26665.msg597584/topicseen.html#msg597584

 

^Talk about important to the city!

 

Is the CVSR at the table regarding engineering or the future use of rail to the casino?  Or Amtrak for that matter?  They NEED to be...

 

Amtrak is a reactive organization. They respond to requests for service. There is a very early stage of planning for the expansion of Chicago-East Coast services, but it is only very early. And what is being considered (service level-wise) can be handled at the city's proposed expansion of the lakefront station for the next 5-15 years. CVSR was very interested in service expansion to Cleveland, but now with federal funding cuts to the National Park Service they are worried that they will not be able to continue all the services they are currently offering south of Independence. But some philanthropic support could change all that. There are also some opportunities for regional rail (West Shore Corridor Transportation Project, Red Line/HealthLine extension alternatives analysis, etc).

 

Separately, each of these is not significant in terms of train movements and passenger counts. Collectively, that is a very different story. Combined these could amount to 30+ trains per day and nearly 2 million passengers per year. That is before we're even considering high-speed rail.

 

So, the short answer is that these are all short-term issues. The long-term, structural, socio-economic trends are pointing toward the need for a more significant expansion of regional and intercity transit. The lakefront is incapable of accommodating that capacity due to the presence of rail freight traffic, the Cuyahoga River lift bridge, and a lack of supportive land uses nearby (ie: too much civic-recreational). There's a reason why the forward-thinking Van Sweringen brothers spent $1.7 billion in today's dollars to move this transportation activity off the lakefront and into a transportation hub on Public Square.

 

The design solution for the casino is potentially simple: preserve a 25-foot-high clearance on the lowest level (ie: former Cleveland Union Terminal track level). For the time being it could be used as a climate-protected area for the boarding/layover of charter buses (and some of this large area for maneuvering and docking of delivery trucks and other large vehicles). Above this 25-foot-high clearance could be a passenger waiting and queuing area for the charter buses and also for ferry boats (Jet Express to Lorain, Islands etc) on the river. So that if/when rail is added, the supportive infrastructure is already there. I don't want to propose anything that doesn't have an intervening use and just sits there unused for a decade or more. And fortunately it doesn't need to. It can serve an immediate transportation need today.

I've said it before regarding our well-being, we put way too much faith in the hands of developers in this town.

 

Absolutely.  I call it Cleveland's low self esteem/beggars-can't-be-choosy mentality.  Yes, Dan Gilbert has rescued a hulking, empty gem in Higbee's Building and brought it to life with future development in Phase II, which is great.  But because he's writing the checks, it seems like we're ceding, on some levels, what's a key component to the City's future health and viability - mainly regional, perhaps national, rail connectivity to this compact, high-density central urban space, to the whims of a developer, who either has no clue or doesn't give a damn about it.  And that's selling your city's soul in the worst possible way.

 

Though it's prime purpose is to shuttle sightseers through our local national park, CVSR is the lone working regional, intercity passenger railroad of any kind that exists in the State.  And even though CVSR is doggedly not a commuter railroad, I'm reading and hearing of more and more Cleveland area people using its trains (even in it's stunted form) as an auto-altermaitve to get to places (or, in other words, NOT to sight-see).  The recent moves to upgrade its equipment and infrastructure should scream to local officials that they should be moving heaven and earth to make the 8-mile extension into Tower City a reality.  And even if CVSR isn't ready to build now due to, mainly, money issues, at the very least, local officials should absolutely not let Gilbert kill off any future rail expansion into the area by blocking future station and  ROW paths with his casino development.  We know Ohio is simultaneously backward and indifferent to rail passenger and transit development or John (Amtrak-Killer) Kasich wouldn’t be sitting in the Statehouse. But Cleveland's the one (reasonably) shining light in this state when it comes to transit.  To not stick a bug in Frank Jackson's or Ed FitzGerald’s (or heck, even hopefully reelected Sherrod Brown's) ear on this would be a civic crime.

 

It's great to have developers like MRN who “get it” regarding maximizing the local urban landscape, in terms of such facets and mixed-use development, density, TOD and walk-ability.  But we really just got lucky with MRN; we know that, in Cleveland's developers sphere, Air Maron tends to be the exception and not the rule.  But it shouldn't just be about hit-or-miss luck ... We've got to start drafting carefully thought-out plans for developers to fit within the needs of our urban framework, and not the other way around.  We can start by making Gilbert make provisions in Horseshoe's Phase II for passenger rail to feed it.

 

^All great points, and not to play into the "low-self esteem" bit, but on the other hand you don't want to wind up as the 40 year-old virgin because the prom queen refused to sleep with you in high school

Nor do I. Preserving a 25-foot clearance (and even having an interim use for it--as I noted above) isn't an either-or proposition. It doesn't preclude anything -- quite the opposite. Nor is it a prom queen metaphor. Regional transit isn't the perfect nor a luxury. It's a basic necessity for all cities that care about the future of their economy and their citizens. For a casino to be built in such a way that denies this possibility is akin to a luxury blocking the necessity.

^All great points, and not to play into the "low-self esteem" bit, but on the other hand you don't want to wind up as the 40 year-old virgin because the prom queen refused to sleep with you in high school

 

Interesting metaphor.  :-D

Dan Gilbert tweeted this out yesterday, just in case there was any doubt:

 

Dan Gilbert‏@cavsdan

 

"@sdav08: @cavsdan You never respond when asked if phase 2 of the casino will actually happen." I have stated publicly many times: "Yes"

 

 

well the issue was passed over three years ago now and we haven't even seen a real drawing.  I'm not saying that it won't happen, but c'mon

^ And FEB was announced in 2004, and the CC started serious talks about the same year. The Breuer Tower/Rotunda conversion was up for proposals in 2008, the Schofield has had scaffolding on it for about 4 years... I could go on. Unfortunately things take time. I'm gonna trust Gilbert on this one.

This isn't an issue of funding.  It is being delayed for different reasons than those projects.  I realize there are geographic hurdles, but I had expected them to come out with something more substantial than, "we wouldn't spend all that money and not build," by now.  They have released no timetable, no renderings.  Gilbert's tweet was the first time he's even mentioned it in some time. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I do believe he will build it and I do trust Gilbert, but I wonder why he hasn't engaged in some kind of dialogue about this.  It gives the dubious a platform to stand on.

According to Joe Marinucci's latest (two Fridays ago): they will be doing engineering/environmental studies of raising everything up over there for the next 18 months, then 12 months of actual construction to stabilize slope and raise something for the casino to stand on, then another 18 months for actual casino build out.  It will be a process but it'll get done.

Well, that explains why they wanted to do a phase 1! So four years before the doors open. It's a big project on a very complicated piece of land (topography, various users on adjoining properties, and infrastructure -- some of it with federal oversight like the river, roads, communications, railroad and rapid transit lines -- and some of that infrastructure was built/buried 200+ years ago). So four years is a bargain.

 

Now, if they wanted to build it on a farm out in the middle of Geauga County, maybe they could do it in four months! It's why lazy people with no "development morals" love sprawl.

^Love your optimism!  Almost wish there was a "like" button.  Now let's hope with all that time they address all these problems and come up with the best solutions, not the easiest solutions.  I want to be able to take a walk down the boardwalk that stretches from FEB through the "Metropark" along the casino to hop on board the Cuyahoga Valley RR and get some Swensons!  :-D

I apologize in advance for asking the question without reading through the entire thread, but has any mention been made to upgrading the Tower City garage as part of the casino project? The garage is currently pretty raw (lots of rust, standing water, poor wayfinding) and any improvement would certainly be a positive for Tower City itself.

^Love your optimism!  Almost wish there was a "like" button.  Now let's hope with all that time they address all these problems and come up with the best solutions, not the easiest solutions.  I want to be able to take a walk down the boardwalk that stretches from FEB through the "Metropark" along the casino to hop on board the Cuyahoga Valley RR and get some Swensons!  :-D

 

Sorry. No choo-choos. I didn't mean to suggest that was in the picture.

I apologize in advance for asking the question without reading through the entire thread, but has any mention been made to upgrading the Tower City garage as part of the casino project? The garage is currently pretty raw (lots of rust, standing water, poor wayfinding) and any improvement would certainly be a positive for Tower City itself.

 

Actually I don't know if that's been mentioned but I agree, it could use some spiffying up.

Maybe I'm confusing this with the concepts floated for the CC/MM behind TC, but I thought there was talk of using (or even a need to use) the space occupied by the garage as part of the structural buildout.

It's Official. Higbees sold to Rock Ohio. The skywalk debate begins. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130801/FREE/130809978

Channel 19 story on Rock Ohio purchase. http://www.19actionnews.com/story/23021216/higbee-building-now-owned-by-casino-developer

http://www.wkyc.com/news/politics_government/article/308835/130/Cleveland-Casino-developer-acquires-Higbee-building

 

Ownership of the building provides ROC the flexibility to expand Horseshoe Casino's gaming and hospitality amenities.  Expansion options are in the development phase and remain subject to Ohio Casino Control Commission review. 

 

What exactly are hospitality amenities? Is it possible that Rock Ohio convert some of the units into hotel suites?