Walkway construction to begin soon. http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/work-progressing-on-horseshoe-casino-walkway-plans-construction-to-begin-soon

Has this passed landmarks and city planning commissions ?

Walkway construction to begin soon. http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/work-progressing-on-horseshoe-casino-walkway-plans-construction-to-begin-soon

 

Gee there's a surprise.

 

And there's your Phase II.

 

:roll:

 

 

Give it a rest!! Good lord. The Horseshoe is LOSING money without this walkway and that's a fact, whether u like it or not. I also believe the casino industry experts when they say a). Not having a walkway is making the Horseshoe lose business and B). That they will NEED the construction of phase 2 to compete with the new Hard Rock. (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html). Plus, I don't know how many freaking times someone has to say the same thing over and over again before you give the benefit of the doubt or at least take a wait and see approach (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/cleveland_casinos_phase_2_in_d.html), instead of that damn old Cleveland cynicism.

Give it a rest!! Good lord. The Horseshoe is LOSING money without this walkway and that's a fact, whether u like it or not. I also believe the casino industry experts when they say a). Not having a walkway is making the Horseshoe lose business and B). That they will NEED the construction of phase 2 to compete with the new Hard Rock. (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html). Plus, I don't know how many freaking times someone has to say the same thing over and over again before you give the benefit of the doubt or at least take a wait and see approach (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/cleveland_casinos_phase_2_in_d.html), instead of that damn old Cleveland cynicism.

Um, are they losing revenue because of not having a sky walk or because the market is oversaturated?

Give it a rest!! Good lord. The Horseshoe is LOSING money without this walkway and that's a fact, whether u like it or not. I also believe the casino industry experts when they say a). Not having a walkway is making the Horseshoe lose business and B). That they will NEED the construction of phase 2 to compete with the new Hard Rock. (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html). Plus, I don't know how many freaking times someone has to say the same thing over and over again before you give the benefit of the doubt or at least take a wait and see approach (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/cleveland_casinos_phase_2_in_d.html), instead of that damn old Cleveland cynicism.

Um, are they losing revenue because of not having a sky walk or because the market is oversaturated?

 

" Fitch Ratings' Bumazhny said the Cleveland Horseshoe should benefit from a proposed skywalk that Rock Ohio plans to build after buying the Higbee Building from Forest City Enterprises. The skywalk would connect to the casino parking garage and give older customers a stronger sense of security while visiting downtown, Bumazhny said."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html

Give it a rest!! Good lord. The Horseshoe is LOSING money without this walkway and that's a fact, whether u like it or not. I also believe the casino industry experts when they say a). Not having a walkway is making the Horseshoe lose business and B). That they will NEED the construction of phase 2 to compete with the new Hard Rock. (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html). Plus, I don't know how many freaking times someone has to say the same thing over and over again before you give the benefit of the doubt or at least take a wait and see approach (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/cleveland_casinos_phase_2_in_d.html), instead of that damn old Cleveland cynicism.

 

Are they losing money or is it a case of revenue not meeting inflated expectations?  I havent' been to the CLE casino, but what is the product like - what's the experience?  Is it a casino "lite"?  Does it provide the same amenities as other similar casino's?  Food options?  Is it actively marketed to nearby markets?  And yes, the regional market is probably oversaturated.

 

I have no problems with the skywalk.  Yes, it looks shitty, but when I was in CLE a couple of weeks ago there seemed to be plenty of foot traffic not associated with casino patrons. 

Give it a rest!! Good lord. The Horseshoe is LOSING money without this walkway and that's a fact, whether u like it or not. I also believe the casino industry experts when they say a). Not having a walkway is making the Horseshoe lose business and B). That they will NEED the construction of phase 2 to compete with the new Hard Rock. (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html). Plus, I don't know how many freaking times someone has to say the same thing over and over again before you give the benefit of the doubt or at least take a wait and see approach (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/cleveland_casinos_phase_2_in_d.html), instead of that damn old Cleveland cynicism.

 

You're right--I shouldn't be so cynical.  But with their revenues failing to meet expectations (something the skywalk won't solve), my gut instinct tells me we'll be waiting a long time for Phase II, if ever.

 

But for now, I'll keep my fingers crossed with everyone else and await the news.

Give it a rest!! Good lord. The Horseshoe is LOSING money without this walkway and that's a fact, whether u like it or not. I also believe the casino industry experts when they say a). Not having a walkway is making the Horseshoe lose business and B). That they will NEED the construction of phase 2 to compete with the new Hard Rock. (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/07/casino_revenue_falls_in_number.html). Plus, I don't know how many freaking times someone has to say the same thing over and over again before you give the benefit of the doubt or at least take a wait and see approach (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/cleveland_casinos_phase_2_in_d.html), instead of that damn old Cleveland cynicism.

 

You're right--I shouldn't be so cynical.  But with their revenues failing to meet expectations (something the skywalk won't solve), my gut instinct tells me we'll be waiting a long time for Phase II, if ever.

 

But for now, I'll keep my fingers crossed with everyone else and await the news.

 

Take solace in the fact that they may have to build phase 2 just to compete and keep up with the Hard Rock. The stores and restaurants that are planned for phase 2 is needed to diversify their income. They're gonna HAVE to build it, because even taking into consideration whatever they add on different floors, the Higbee is only so big and they need income diversification

I don't understand why the hell they converted Thistledown to the Racino.  That has to be draining a ton of business from the downtown location as the Racino parking lot is always full.  Free parking too.

Purely theoretical here, but how would forumers feel if "phase 2" morphed into something different...that instead of a new build on the land behind TC they used the entire Higbee building for expanded gaming / entertainment options (performance venue, sky lounge / club on top floor) and a hotel on other floors...then purchased TC mall and made major upgrades to the facility (addressing mall upkeep and attracting more upscale retailers in line with a gaming facility).  They'd end up with several hundred rooms between the Ritz and Higbee hotel rooms, plush the shopping and entertainment amenities expected in phase 2. 

 

I'm not saying this is what they'll do, or being a doubter of phase 2, I'm just thinking of what could be possible since Rock Gaming seems to also be pursuing a strategy of owning the existing facilities at TC (Higbee, Ritz, Fergurson Plaza).  This would also be in line with Forest City's stated objective of focusing efforts in their core markets.  They could always retain historic TT but sell other TC facilities...which they've begun to do.

 

I was excited by the plazas in the rendering for the new casino, but I'd be happy if things developed in this manner, keeping the action closer to public square, east 4th and the warehouse district.  Plus this may make more economic sense given the engineering challenges behind TC and the lower than anticipated revenue the casino is generating.  Just thinking out loud here...

It's from page 22 of planning commission 2011 report - http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/grouplan/assets/FINALGroupPlanCommissionReport052311.pdf

 

 

Purely theoretical here, but how would forumers feel if "phase 2" morphed into something different...that instead of a new build on the land behind TC they used the entire Higbee building for expanded gaming / entertainment options (performance venue, sky lounge / club on top floor) and a hotel on other floors...then purchased TC mall and made major upgrades to the facility (addressing mall upkeep and attracting more upscale retailers in line with a gaming facility).  They'd end up with several hundred rooms between the Ritz and Higbee hotel rooms, plush the shopping and entertainment amenities expected in phase 2. 

 

I'm not saying this is what they'll do, or being a doubter of phase 2, I'm just thinking of what could be possible since Rock Gaming seems to also be pursuing a strategy of owning the existing facilities at TC (Higbee, Ritz, Fergurson Plaza).  This would also be in line with Forest City's stated objective of focusing efforts in their core markets.  They could always retain historic TT but sell other TC facilities...which they've begun to do.

 

I was excited by the plazas in the rendering for the new casino, but I'd be happy if things developed in this manner, keeping the action closer to public square, east 4th and the warehouse district.  Plus this may make more economic sense given the engineering challenges behind TC and the lower than anticipated revenue the casino is generating.  Just thinking out loud here...

 

I'm not opposed to anything that repurposes any building in downtown and brings it back to life.  What I don't like about the potential is the way the voters of the state of Ohio were sold on this with the new development, and now it seems to be open to interpretation. 

 

So at the end of the day, I have no problem with them taking the rest of the Higbee.  But I do want to see the riverfront site developed.

They are going to add more things to the Higbee building but they will still need to build phase 2 because the Higbee building alone is not big enough to hold ALL of the things they will need to fully diversify its income.

 

I agree on the comment about Thistledown, by the way. If it was structurally feasible concerning the footprint, I would've much rather preferred it if they would've merged Thistledown with phase 2 and moved Thistledpwn downtown

Purely theoretical here, but how would forumers feel if "phase 2" morphed into something different...that instead of a new build on the land behind TC they used the entire Higbee building for expanded gaming / entertainment options (performance venue, sky lounge / club on top floor) and a hotel on other floors...then purchased TC mall and made major upgrades to the facility (addressing mall upkeep and attracting more upscale retailers in line with a gaming facility).  They'd end up with several hundred rooms between the Ritz and Higbee hotel rooms, plush the shopping and entertainment amenities expected in phase 2. 

 

 

That idea doesn't appear to be so theoretical in Rock Ohio's mind....

 

"The casino occupies the first four floors of the 13-story Higbee’s Department Store. The purchase frees up remaining floors for potential gaming, entertainment or hospitality use. Rock Ohio Caesars at this point is exploring those possibilities."

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/work-progressing-on-horseshoe-casino-walkway-plans-construction-to-begin-soon

 

Purely theoretical here, but how would forumers feel if "phase 2" morphed into something different...that instead of a new build on the land behind TC they used the entire Higbee building for expanded gaming / entertainment options (performance venue, sky lounge / club on top floor) and a hotel on other floors...then purchased TC mall and made major upgrades to the facility (addressing mall upkeep and attracting more upscale retailers in line with a gaming facility).  They'd end up with several hundred rooms between the Ritz and Higbee hotel rooms, plush the shopping and entertainment amenities expected in phase 2. 

 

 

That idea doesn't appear to be so theoretical in Rock Ohio's mind....

 

"The casino occupies the first four floors of the 13-story Higbee’s Department Store. The purchase frees up remaining floors for potential gaming, entertainment or hospitality use. Rock Ohio Caesars at this point is exploring those possibilities."

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/work-progressing-on-horseshoe-casino-walkway-plans-construction-to-begin-soon

 

 

In my head, I would think a Harrah's hotel/resort would be the first option for the higbees's upper floors.  then again this is all speculation.

Does the Cleveland casino have a space for concerts or events?  I've only been to the casino in Cincinnati to gamble a couple times, but they have done a really good job of bringing concerts to the outside plaza in front of the casino, and big name comedians to the inside space.  IMO, this has been the best aspect of having the new casino.

Rock Ohio has already invested over $300 mil in the Higbee building. I find it amazing that even more mony could be invested in it which could bring even more folks in. And I agree- Thistledown is definitely dragging on downtown's numbers. 

 

Since Gilbert bought the land behind Tower City for $85 mil, I think we can all agree that something someday will get built there. But it will be great to see what they come up with for the remaining floor space available in the Higbee.

Does the Cleveland casino have a space for concerts or events?  I've only been to the casino in Cincinnati to gamble a couple times, but they have done a really good job of bringing concerts to the outside plaza in front of the casino, and big name comedians to the inside space.  IMO, this has been the best aspect of having the new casino.

 

IIRC, that would be apart of our phase 2

The purchase frees up remaining floors for potential gaming, entertainment or hospitality use.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/work-progressing-on-horseshoe-casino-walkway-plans-construction-to-begin-soon

 

 

What about the 4 floors Key Bank leases?  When does that end?

I agree on the comment about Thistledown, by the way. If it was structurally feasible concerning the footprint, I would've much rather preferred it if they would've merged Thistledown with phase 2 and moved Thistledpwn downtown

 

Just Hypothetical here - The Norfolk Southern parcel south of Progressive Field where 20 years ago they considered this parcel for the Cleveland Browns Stadium,  Then Bart Wolstein considered this site for a Major League Soccer Stadium ( which he did not get any city support )  and then considered Northfield before he died.  Is this parcel Big Enough to move Thistedown racetrack to and THUS incorporating it into PHASE 2 

I agree on the comment about Thistledown, by the way. If it was structurally feasible concerning the footprint, I would've much rather preferred it if they would've merged Thistledown with phase 2 and moved Thistledpwn downtown

 

Just Hypothetical here - The Norfolk Southern parcel south of Progressive Field where 20 years ago they considered this parcel for the Cleveland Browns Stadium,  Then Bart Wolstein considered this site for a Major League Soccer Stadium ( which he did not get any city support )  and then considered Northfield before he died.  Is this parcel Big Enough to move Thistedown racetrack to and THUS incorporating it into PHASE 2

 

Hmm. I don't know but if it is, that would be freaking genius. Can tie it into Gateway AND have tons of machines and table games PLUS the stores and restaurants you were going to put into phase 2 anyway. I LOVE the idea. Someone get the idea to Horseshoe like ASAP

I heard the Browns will be using the space for a new stadium.

I heard the Browns will be using the space for a new stadium.

 

You might be right about that.  The current stadium is approaching 15 years.  It seems that the newer stadiums have a life of 20-30 years.  that's why I'm kind of surprised that Haslam is investing $100MM in the existing stadium.  If he used those funds and combined them with a new Refunding and Revenue Bond issue that would be used to pay off the '95 Bonds and a new stadium. I don't think a new stadium would be out of the question.  I'm sure the rates on the 1995 Bonds are considerably higher than the rates today.  I own muni bonds with 30-40 year maturities that are only paying 4% (recent issues).  Most Bond issues from the '90's have been refunded at lower long term rates available today.

I heard the Browns will be using the space for a new stadium.

 

Really?! Intriguing. Can u reveal where u heard that from?

I heard the Browns will be using the space for a new stadium.

 

Makes sense. If true, so much for the Browns involvement with Lakefront development. Maybe simply getting out of the way is the best thing they could do anyhow.

 

Having the Tribe, Cavs AND Browns adjacent to PhaseII would be a huge windfall for the casino.

I heard the Browns will be using the space for a new stadium.

 

Well I am not sure where you got that info but the land you speak of looks different than it did twenty years ago. With the new E9th extension and the second inner belt bridge that parcel will be much smaller very soon.

I agree on the comment about Thistledown, by the way. If it was structurally feasible concerning the footprint, I would've much rather preferred it if they would've merged Thistledown with phase 2 and moved Thistledpwn downtown

 

Just Hypothetical here - The Norfolk Southern parcel south of Progressive Field where 20 years ago they considered this parcel for the Cleveland Browns Stadium,  Then Bart Wolstein considered this site for a Major League Soccer Stadium ( which he did not get any city support )  and then considered Northfield before he died.  Is this parcel Big Enough to move Thistedown racetrack to and THUS incorporating it into PHASE 2

 

 

Gilbert would need state approval to move Thistledown (as a Racino) to Cleveland. He already has approval to move it to the Green area.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/03/thistledown_slots_to_begin_new_era.html

I heard the Browns will be using the space for a new stadium.

 

You might be right about that.  The current stadium is approaching 15 years.  It seems that the newer stadiums have a life of 20-30 years.  that's why I'm kind of surprised that Haslam is investing $100MM in the existing stadium.  If he used those funds and combined them with a new Refunding and Revenue Bond issue that would be used to pay off the '95 Bonds and a new stadium. I don't think a new stadium would be out of the question.  I'm sure the rates on the 1995 Bonds are considerably higher than the rates today.  I own muni bonds with 30-40 year maturities that are only paying 4% (recent issues).  Most Bond issues from the '90's have been refunded at lower long term rates available today.

 

Wow. Are we seriously discussing a new Browns Stadium? I can assure you that this conversation can be tabled for at least 15-20 years. Keep dreaming, but it most certainly is not happening anytime soon.

^ Yeah I'm guessing that was sarcasm from ClevelandOhio?  Haslam would not be considering adding 100mm worth of improvements if that was the case.

Anyways, this is the wrong thread for that discussion.

They Finally Get It.  This should help with some of the erosion to Thistledown and their free parking.http://fox8.com/2013/08/14/free-parking-at-horseshoe-casino-cleveland/

"This should help with some of the erosion to Thistledown and their free parking "     

 

The Horseshoe and Thistledown are the same ownership. This has more to do with a preemptive strike with Northfield. That is when the real erosion will take place.

 

 

Skywalk work to start in October. http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/Work-begins-on-Horseshoe-Casino-Cleveland-walkway-over-Ontario--Prospect-road-closures-to-come

Skywalk work to start in October. http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/Work-begins-on-Horseshoe-Casino-Cleveland-walkway-over-Ontario--Prospect-road-closures-to-come

 

That's part of the Phase 1 casino.....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20680.msg673367.html#msg673367

The only phase of the casino... Phase II is not happening any time soon. Casino revenue continues to nosedive in Ohio.

The only phase of the casino... Phase II is not happening any time soon. Casino revenue continues to nosedive in Ohio.

 

Is "nose dive" really the best way to put it? From what I remember/ heard, the potential revenue suggested for the casino were always criticized as likely inflated. It still has a pretty big revenue stream, but should we be worried? I feel like we'd need phase two just to stay competitive with northfield.

I was walking past the may company building and was trying to figure out what the heck they were building using a large crane in front of the building... Then it hit me... They are assembling what's going to be the new sky walk for the casino.

I wasn't aware this was through all the design review/planning processes.  I can't believe this thing has been allowed to be built...

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Assembly of the Horseshoe Casino skywalk outside the Prospect Avenue entrance of the former downtown May Co. store is hampering efforts to market the mostly vacant building, says a lawsuit that seeks to halt the work.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/10/suit_seeks_to_move_assembly_of.html#incart_river_default

I wasn't aware this was through all the design review/planning processes.  I can't believe this thing has been allowed to be built...

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Assembly of the Horseshoe Casino skywalk outside the Prospect Avenue entrance of the former downtown May Co. store is hampering efforts to market the mostly vacant building, says a lawsuit that seeks to halt the work.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/10/suit_seeks_to_move_assembly_of.html#incart_river_default

 

If they're not careful, Gilbert will just buy it for Phase II.

I would kinda be pissed about this as well if I owned property and somebody didn't get imput from me about this monster being built at my doorstep...the response of the city official was pretty BS.  Boy they really bend over backwards for Gilbert.

 

That said, I really cannot see how this is hampering the marketing of the building...sounds kinda disingenous to extort some $$$ out of Gilbert.

I wasn't aware this was through all the design review/planning processes.  I can't believe this thing has been allowed to be built...

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Assembly of the Horseshoe Casino skywalk outside the Prospect Avenue entrance of the former downtown May Co. store is hampering efforts to market the mostly vacant building, says a lawsuit that seeks to halt the work.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/10/suit_seeks_to_move_assembly_of.html#incart_river_default

 

It was approved on first submittal, a long time ago. 

I think my opinion on this is well documented.

Skywalk to close streets this week-end.http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/ontario-and-prospect-intersection-to-be-closed-for-weekend-walkway-construction

Was just talking with one of my co-workers who's in the Higbee building. She was telling me today that now that the casino bought they whole building, they've terminated the lease with Key.  Im not sure exactly how many people work there, but theres at least a few hundred that are now in the process of moving to the building on Tiedeman in Brooklyn...

I hate the casino more and more every day

^well of course that raises a whole host of questions, the primary one being do they have plans for the rest of the building....why kick out a large tenant such as Key if you do not (or maybe Key actually had plans to consolidate in Brooklyn and the purchase and move are not related).

Call me overly-cynical, but I stand by my equation:

 

Skywalk + Entire Building = Phase II * 0

 

 

 

I dont think it was in Keys plans to consolidate in Brooklyn. There was just a big restructuring that resulted in consolidation to Higbee this year, not to mention recent interior remodeling. This look like it was all the casinos choice. No matter what they have planned, I hope its not "phase two".

Call me overly-cynical, but I stand by my equation:

 

Skywalk + Entire Building = Phase II * 0

 

You forgot to factor the $80 million (to purchase the air rights) in your equation

FWIW, My roommate works for the casino and a few months ago the tone was "definitely moving forward" and now it's more "might be moving forward". Obviously just heresay, so taken with a grain of salt.

^Hearsay.  As in "I heard someone say"  :speech: