With the decision to keep Thistledown where it is, I very much doubt Phase 2 happens anytime soon.

 

Really!?  Thistledown IS staying put?  I missed that one.  The last I read (PD) was that, though the Thistledown racino was financially doing well, Gilbert/Rock was mum on a possible relocation to Akron/Canton.  I'm thrilled if the racetrack/casino is staying, the Warrensville Hts/N. Randall area really needs it. Do you have a link?

 

Here's the link to an article in the PD confirming that Thistledown will remain where it is:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/06/thistledown_racino_will_stay_i.html

^Thanks.  You put a smile on my face.

^Because that's what WE voted on.

 

Do we subject each and every decision on consensual business or personal relationships to a general vote?

Unfortunately the game changed when JohnnyK decided to flood the state of Ohio with Racino's. Without a vote of the people. We the citizens voted to approve 4 Casino's. But the governor decided he had a better idea and diluted the market. Which is why we wait on Phase2.

 

You're blaming the wrong guy and have a bad timeline. They had been debated in Columbus for months to fill a budget hole before Gilbert even started gathering signatures. Harrah's (the corporate predecessor to Caesars and Horseshoe operator) bought Thistledown in 2008 in anticipation of racinos being passed in Cbus.Ted Strickland and the Ohio legislature passed racinos back in July 2009. Gilbert's casino proposal was passed afterwards in November. The only reasons the racinos took so long to launch were because of court challenges. Anyone who voted in November already knew that racinos were likely on the way barring legal issues

 

As part of Thistledown staying put, Rock must invest $60 mil as required by the state. Unlike other tracks, they were originally exempted from construction requirements because of a possible move.

He had the ability to put it up for a vote.  From a guy who publicly opposed the casino ballot he had a lot more to do with it than you think.

Here are three articles outlining his involvement.

 

http://www.horseplop.com/index.php?topic=21007.0;wap2

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/gambling-Ohio-Kasich/2011/10/24/id/415455/

http://wosu.org/2012/news/2012/05/25/legislature-halts-new-internet-cafes-skips-columbus-in-racino/

phase II just got funded....    ;-)

 

Blomberg states cavs gone from a value of 500 million to 1 billion today... 

 

http://b5vod-vh.akamaihd.net/i/m/NjA4NjIyNQ/CZsQ4wXwCS.olksOuu3_cLMkBN9KBzqFFoUJAkILXI5iNWMy/2cd5d002-4400-4dbc-b2ba-6ea727c99063_,24,15,44,0.mp4.csmil/master.m3u8?hdcore=1

phase II just got funded....    ;-)

 

Blomberg states cavs gone from a value of 500 million to 1 billion today... 

 

http://b5vod-vh.akamaihd.net/i/m/NjA4NjIyNQ/CZsQ4wXwCS.olksOuu3_cLMkBN9KBzqFFoUJAkILXI5iNWMy/2cd5d002-4400-4dbc-b2ba-6ea727c99063_,24,15,44,0.mp4.csmil/master.m3u8?hdcore=1

 

Can you please check your link.  What is it, its requesting itunes.

link is fine using android, try this....  value of cavs at around 1:30

 

link is fine using android, try this....  value of cavs at around 1:30

 

I wasn't on a mobile, I was on a desktop.  The youtube link worked fine.

Nice video. 

But Phase II is a different consideration and pot of money than the Cav's.  I hope Phase II happens, but I would not bet on it.

hey sky....  I put that up half joking and I see your point....  however both business are owned by Dan Gilbert....  you have an international mega star that has committed to one of your businesses and will draw people from all over....  I would think that you use that synergy to attract more people...

 

phase II does not have to be only about gambling and I think they have stated that...

Yeah, but by the time he would get approvals and finished with construction, LeBron would be retired( Mostly kidding).

LeBron being here will help the casino in the same way that anything that brings people downtown will help the casino (and other businesses).  Now, whether LeBron is the tipping point between Phase 2 not being built and Phase 2 being built, I can't say.  But I don't see how it can hurt. 

 

The current phase of the casino feels cramped.  I'm sure all the execs there would love to have the chance at building something brand new from the ground up.  I just hope the land becomes more mixed use with residential and not just the casino.  And I think that's possible, given Dan Gilbert's history in Detroit.

The current phase of the casino feels cramped.  I'm sure all the execs there would love to have the chance at building something brand new from the ground up.  I just hope the land becomes more mixed use with residential and not just the casino.  And I think that's possible, given Dan Gilbert's history in Detroit.

 

Agree. And sincerely hoping "mixed use" takes into account the riverfront. I'd hate for that narrow yet important corridor doesn't get relegated to parking use.

the beacon journal says lebron means an extra $500M per year for the city, so hopefully that helps justify pressure to get something going on phase II. aside from the fact that there never really was going to be phase II, that is.

the beacon journal says lebron means an extra $500M per year for the city, so hopefully that helps justify pressure to get something going on phase II. aside from the fact that there never really was going to be phase II, that is.

 

I don't believe that.  You dont spend that type of money for no reason.

the beacon journal says lebron means an extra $500M per year for the city, so hopefully that helps justify pressure to get something going on phase II. aside from the fact that there never really was going to be phase II, that is.

 

I don't believe that.  You dont spend that type of money for no reason.

 

Well you were wrong on Lebron's decision to come home.  I suppose you could go 2 for 2.  ;)

 

I actually believe Gilbert would spend the $85 million for that land to make the casino happen, without every planning on building there.  There was an enormous amount of political pressure at the time and he had to act like he meant business.    It doesn't take a Harvard MBA to figure out that $85 million invested in vacant land is well worth it if the other site reaps $500 million in profits in the first 10-20 years?

Does anyone know who actually owns Tower City Mall?  I've been told it no longer is owned by the Ratners and now belongs to Gilbert.  Is it possible to find out who now controls the mall?

Does anyone know who actually owns Tower City Mall?  I've been told it no longer is owned by the Ratners and now belongs to Gilbert.  Is it possible to find out who now controls the mall?

 

Welcome p28curry!

 

A Google search reveals The Avenue at Tower City Center is owned by Forest City Enterprises.....

 

Tower City Center's retail area, called “The Avenue,” includes 360,000 square feet of selling space, according to Forest City, and is part of a complex that includes three Forest City-owned office buildings downtown and on the edge of the Cuyahoga River. Also for sale besides The Avenue are Skylight Office Tower and Post Office Plaza. The landmark Terminal Tower is not for sale.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20131105/FREE/131109905&template=mobile#ATHS

Thanks KJP.  You should watch this closely...my understanding is that not the case. 

Well you were wrong on Lebron's decision to come home.  I suppose you could go 2 for 2.  ;)

 

You mean 3 for 3.  MTS was also wrong about the RNC coming to Cleveland.  We must keep reminding him of this.  (Although I hope he's not wrong here.)

Thanks KJP.  You should watch this closely...my understanding is that not the case. 

 

I just checked county records. If a sale has taken place it has yet to be recorded by the county's Fiscal Officer. But I'll keep checking.

the beacon journal says lebron means an extra $500M per year for the city, so hopefully that helps justify pressure to get something going on phase II. aside from the fact that there never really was going to be phase II, that is.

 

I don't believe that.  You dont spend that type of money for no reason.

 

Well you were wrong on Lebron's decision to come home.  I suppose you could go 2 for 2.  ;)

 

I actually believe Gilbert would spend the $85 million for that land to make the casino happen, without every planning on building there.  There was an enormous amount of political pressure at the time and he had to act like he meant business.    It doesn't take a Harvard MBA to figure out that $85 million invested in vacant land is well worth it if the other site reaps $500 million in profits in the first 10-20 years?

Well you were wrong on Lebron's decision to come home.  I suppose you could go 2 for 2.  ;)

 

You mean 3 for 3.  MTS was also wrong about the RNC coming to Cleveland.  We must keep reminding him of this.  (Although I hope he's not wrong here.)

 

Nope only wrong about one.  I had info about the other and trolled.  :P

 

Nobody wants the 2nd phase more than me, as I remember when it was going to be a hotel, Needless Markup and residential.  The casino, hotel and high end retail would be right up my alley!

Just some speculation.

 

Will Horseshoe Casino Cleveland play all its cards?

Revenue numbers have some questioning possibility of riverfront operation

By JAY MILLER

September 14, 2014 4:30 AM

 

...The ever-looming question, though, is whether or not the casino can be successful enough to justify building a new casino building along the riverfront.

 

The initial plan of casino developer Dan Gilbert was to build a casino atop a parking garage overlooking the Cuyahoga River behind the Terminal Tower. The complications and likely slowness of building on a riverbank moved the casino to what came to be called “Phase I” in the Higbee Building. Phase II would come later.

 

That was before racinos were legalized, however, and certainly didn't take into account a planned, full-service casino in New Castle, Pa., near the Ohio border. The Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board has a license for a casino there, but has yet to approve a development plan.

 

While Gilbert has continued to say the new casino, which could offer the kind of amenities now available at the racinos, is in the offing, no timetable is being offered. Last week, Mortland would only say that nothing has changed in those plans.

 

But Meczka isn't so sure.

 

“I don't think they can generate enough revenue to justify a new facility,” he said. “It's an unnecessary investment.”

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140914/SUB1/309149974/will-horseshoe-casino-cleveland-play-all-its-cards

Larkin had an op-ed piece in the PD a few days ago that was pretty harsh on Gilbert and speculated the phase 2 would probably never happen.  Casinos just aren't producing enough revenue. 

 

EDIT:  Here it is:  http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/09/how_dan_gilbert_and_allied_cas.html

 

"Part of the bait used to attract support from voters was Gilbert’s promise to build a glittering, $600 million casino along Huron Road with breathtaking views of the Cuyahoga River.  Plans the Gilbert group shared with Plain Dealer architecture critic Steve Litt showed what Litt described as a “contemporary building with large areas of glass at two main entrances” and “large, street-level plazas flanking the entries off Huron, where the public will be able to stroll and enjoy gardens, fountains and views of the Cuyahoga River.”

 

That’s what voters were promised. What they got was a cramped casino, shoehorned into four floors of a former department store. It’s tastefully done, but located in a building designed to sell things to customers, not soak them.  Asked about the promised, $600 million casino, Jennifer Kulczycki, spokeswoman for Gilbert’s Rock Ventures gaming company, replied in an email, “I don’t have an update at this time.”

 

But the dirty little secret here is that the market for casino gambling has cratered, especially in northern states east of the Mississippi River."

To make the numbers work, it seems that the final build-out would have to incorporate more residential/mixed use space than originally planned.  Ultimately, I think that is a much better use for the space than just a casino.

To make the numbers work, it seems that the final build-out would have to incorporate more residential/mixed use space than originally planned.  Ultimately, I think that is a much better use for the space than just a casino.

 

Living above a casino?  Sounds risky.  Not sure I'd be willing to take that sort of gamble...

 

BA-doop-tish!

It's not going to be residential but some sort of mixed use was always the plan, with higher end stores and restaurants as part of the complex. I actually think these articles are missing the point. I think the racinos actually make it MORE likely that phase 2 gets built in order to stay competitive

It's not going to be residential but some sort of mixed use was always the plan, with higher end stores and restaurants as part of the complex. I actually think these articles are missing the point. I think the racinos actually make it MORE likely that phase 2 gets built in order to stay competitive

 

The gambling dollars are just spread too thin now.  Look how many gambling venues are within a 2 hr drive...  we're not drawing the out-of-town gambler like was promised and there's even more competition for the stay-at-home gambler. 

So close Higbee's and move everything over to the river....after all Higbee's was originally suppose to be "temporary" (although I do like having the casino right on Public Square).  Then to finish my unrealistic vision turn the 4 lower floors of Higbee's back into a department store (OK now I will wake up).

So close Higbee's and move everything over to the river....after all Higbee's was originally suppose to be "temporary" (although I do like having the casino right on Public Square).  Then to finish my unrealistic vision turn the 4 lower floors of Higbee's back into a department store (OK now I will wake up).

 

would make a great location for an urban TARGET store, right in the midst of all the apartment conversions...    if they started on the Phase 2 Casino tomorrow, it'd be 2 years till completion before they could empty out the Higbee space.  Quite a few new apartments downtown by then

The casino continues to be the top producing casino in the state. Off expectations? Sure... Tops in revenue, yes....

 

Again, I say you slap "Caesar's" on the expansion - and that would be a game changer...

It's not going to be residential but some sort of mixed use was always the plan, with higher end stores and restaurants as part of the complex. I actually think these articles are missing the point. I think the racinos actually make it MORE likely that phase 2 gets built in order to stay competitive

 

The gambling dollars are just spread too thin now.  Look how many gambling venues are within a 2 hr drive...  we're not drawing the out-of-town gambler like was promised and there's even more competition for the stay-at-home gambler.

 

That's not necessarily true. There was an article posted in Crain's a while ago quoting industry insiders who say that there is still room for growth. The market can handle it. It's the experience that is the most important, so making this mixed use with retail and restaurants is vital.

The casino continues to be the top producing casino in the state. Off expectations? Sure... Tops in revenue, yes....

 

Again, I say you slap "Caesar's" on the expansion - and that would be a game changer...

 

I strongly agree with this. If Caesar's is the new expansion (which I think it will be), that IS a game changer

There are only a few Caesar Properties in the world, years back I was told they will only use the brand in terms of future expansion in major international destinations. Put simply Cincinnati, Cleveland and now with a new 400 million dollar Horseshoe Baltimore is not a correct fit for a Caesars which I have visited and command much higher tbl bets and so on. I think them changing that formula for Cleveland is unlikely but you never know. I'm just happy that Cleveland and Cincinnati didn't get stuck with the Lame Low end Harrahs Brand.

Via Tom Beres on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/TomBeres/status/527491162395795456/photo/1

 

 

 

Dan Gilbert renews pledge second casino will be built, but no firm date, 1 license 2 casinos. # wkyc

Here too:

 

WKSU ‏@WKSU  4m4 minutes ago Cleveland, OH

Cavs owner Dan Gilbert say he will build a larger Cleveland casino as promised.

Well, isn't that nice?

Now, let's get some actual design stuff. Words are great...but these same words have been used for years.

Jason Lloyd @JasonLloydABJ    ·  1h  1 hour ago 

 

Phase 2 of casino is in design phase, Gilbert says. No timeline for when it will open, but he's committed to building it.

 

 

Here's an idea. If Mr. Gilbert wants to have his second casino built, why does he not only move his Quicken Loans HQ to the CLE, but work to help bring other corporate HQ's to the CLE. By doing this, it would not only bring thousands of jobs to Cleveland, but provide potential business for the 2nd phase casino.

 

Oh wait, I just woke up from my dream.

 

I believe if a study was done on where Dan Gilbert reinvest the money he is making off of the people of NE Ohio, it would probably prove my own theory that the majority  of those profits are going back to Detroit. So the people of NE Ohio are helping Mr. Gilbert revitalize Detroit, while Mr. Gilbert destroys our cherished history; first by demolishing the Columbia Building to put up a glorified parking structure for his guest, then he alters the Higbee Building with a walkway that also blocks the view looking north toward PS from Ontario St, and finally demolishes the Stanley Building, one of Cleveland oldest buildings.

Dan Gilbert tweeted this out yesterday, just in case there was any doubt:

 

Dan Gilbert‏@cavsdan

 

"@sdav08: @cavsdan You never respond when asked if phase 2 of the casino will actually happen." I have stated publicly many times: "Yes"

 

 

Here's an idea. If Mr. Gilbert wants to have his second casino built, why does he not only move his Quicken Loans HQ to the CLE, but work to help bring other corporate HQ's to the CLE. By doing this, it would not only bring thousands of jobs to Cleveland, but provide potential business for the 2nd phase casino.

 

Oh wait, I just woke up from my dream.

 

I believe if a study was done on where Dan Gilbert reinvest the money he is making off of the people of NE Ohio, it would probably prove my own theory that the majority  of those profits are going back to Detroit. So the people of NE Ohio are helping Mr. Gilbert revitalize Detroit, while Mr. Gilbert destroys our cherished history; first by demolishing the Columbia Building to put up a glorified parking structure for his guest, then he alters the Higbee Building with a walkway that also blocks the view looking north toward PS from Ontario St, and finally demolishes the Stanley Building, one of Cleveland oldest buildings.

 

smh

I never get the "where do the profits go" argument or why it matters... Lots of Cleveland HQd businesses do business all over the country and world (DDR, AG, etc..) - and reap the benefits - just as out of state businesses do business here. It's the way of the world -  Whether or not some like that the casino exists at all (gambling!),  razed local buildings, or that Rock is HQd in Detroit, it has put tons of people to work and brought tons more of them downtown - plus revitalized a mostly vacant building.

 

I am a full supporter of Gilbert and what he's done for this town.. - though understand why some aren't. That's your choice.  And believe (hope) phase 2 will be built. But also think he is doing a great disservice to himself/his business by not head-on addressing the Phase 2 situation and setting a date...  Causes too much doubt and dissent...

 

The only thing Gilbert owes cleveland is phase 2 of the casino and he hasn't delivered.

Here's an idea. If Mr. Gilbert wants to have his second casino built, why does he not only move his Quicken Loans HQ to the CLE, but work to help bring other corporate HQ's to the CLE. By doing this, it would not only bring thousands of jobs to Cleveland, but provide potential business for the 2nd phase casino.

 

Oh wait, I just woke up from my dream.

 

I believe if a study was done on where Dan Gilbert reinvest the money he is making off of the people of NE Ohio, it would probably prove my own theory that the majority  of those profits are going back to Detroit. So the people of NE Ohio are helping Mr. Gilbert revitalize Detroit, while Mr. Gilbert destroys our cherished history; first by demolishing the Columbia Building to put up a glorified parking structure for his guest, then he alters the Higbee Building with a walkway that also blocks the view looking north toward PS from Ontario St, and finally demolishes the Stanley Building, one of Cleveland oldest buildings.

?

The only thing Gilbert owes cleveland is phase 2 of the casino and he hasn't delivered.

 

Because's there's no timeline for him to do so.

Gilbert came to Cleveland to buy the Cavs.  Then he moved a Quicken office to Cleveland.  Then he got legislation passed to open up gaming in Ohio, then built a Casino in Cleveland.  10 years ago, I thought he was just buying the Cavs.  I think we need to ease up a bit.

Gilbert came to Cleveland to buy the Cavs.  Then he moved a Quicken office to Cleveland.  Then he got legislation passed to open up gaming in Ohio, then built a Casino in Cleveland.  10 years ago, I thought he was just buying the Cavs.  I think we need to ease up a bit.

 

What he said.  Love him or hate him Dan Gilbert's done more in the past 10 years than some lifelong well heeled residents who do lots in other locations and neglect their hometown.