3 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

Sprawl doesn't help.  But let's not lay all this at the feet of sprawl.  Some of this is the downside of good things that we're not about to change, including social and economic mobility.  I might have one or two more close friends if I'd stayed in Kirkersville (though honestly doubtful, because they all headed for the city limit signs after HS graduation and didn't look back, same as I did), but I probably wouldn't have a job as good as the one I have now, not to mention that I wouldn't have met my wife.  But I moved to this town when I was 27, and it's just harder to form new close friendships at that age, let alone in your 40s.

 

There's a list way upthread of the reasons sprawl was a cultural perfect storm after WWII.   And again, I would use the word "asocial" or even the phrase "selectively social" rather than anti-social, though there's certainly plenty of the latter in places which condone it.....both real and virtual.

 

The 'net has allowed people to be selectively social, and to keep this somewhat on topic has reduced the consequences of moving away.   But the main thing is it was developed largely by people who aren't comfortable with random, extraneous interactions, and they built it to suit themselves.

Back in the day to interact with anyone it was on the phone(and they stayed at home)or we had to meet them. The nature of interactions was by necessity more by the means we had to communicate with one another. Yesterday I was texting and talking to multiple people and exchanging all kinds of information and I never left the house. It just wasn't that way. We spend way more time online communicating with people we really don't know on our devices as well.

 

And I don't think it was sprawl-communities still had neighbors who knew each other, kids ran in groups, people did things together more in their neighborhoods.  Has sprawl changed since 1990 as communication has? Is there something about 50's-80's sprawl that is different from 90's -now sprawl?

12 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

The data KJP quoted began in 1990.

 

I agree that that was two decades ago, because 2000 was one decade ago.  But there are people who firmly maintain alternative facts on that front.

Hahahahaha. Sorry three. Where has the time gone. I guess the point I'm making is 1990 was a year that did not have any of these things that I mentioned (except internet), whereas 2021 did. We can all pretty much agree that sprawl has been going on since atleast the 70s if not longer. 

Sprawl was well established in the 1990's and based off a very quick skim of this paper, ~1990 seems to have been peak sprawl. 

 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1504033112

 

(I might go back to this paper when I have more time, looks interesting). 

 

But yeah, it looks like the only correlation this data could have with sprawl is negative. Lots of other trends it likely maps onto better, and it certainly isn't just one thing. The rise of the Internet is one possibility, and I'd probably give it the largest share. Parents are much more tied to their kids, which reduces free time for both kids and parents. The decline of religion takes away a big community center in a lot of people's lives. We could probably find lots of factors. 

42 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Hahahahaha. Sorry three. Where has the time gone. I guess the point I'm making is 1990 was a year that did not have any of these things that I mentioned (except internet), whereas 2021 did. We can all pretty much agree that sprawl has been going on since atleast the 70s if not longer. 

 

The 'net was around in 1990, but not at all in common use until 1994 or so.  Sprawl began right after WWII ended.

I don't know if sprawl has had much effect on people's close personal friendship connections, but it is becoming well known that sprawl had a much worse effect on the "weak" social connections- the neighbor a block over you see walking the dog, the waitress at the neighborhood diner, the guy who runs the corner store.  You are much less likely to see those people on a regular basis in the suburbs and get familiar with them.  Most people don't go outside their houses without a car in the suburbs, the server at the diner and the person at the register of the grocery store that you have to drive 5 miles to are a rotating cast and they're bigger and busier places anyway. 

 

Recent studies show that these weak social connections have a huge role in people's happiness.

Right every store has to be ridiculously busy most of the time to make money unless it's super boutique. Yet there are fewer and fewer people working in them. They have to serve such a large geographic area.

Also, new suburbia in the 1950's was so much different than new suburbia in the 1990's-2020's

Services and other businesses weren't nearly as far away from the residential. Most residential was focused around a nearby node.

I don't think that sprawl has anything at all to do with people being shy, lonely, or whatever.  People choose to engage with the world or they don't.  

 

Every floor of every college dormitory had the loner guy whose door was never open.  They were more a rumor than a going concern.  They'd slip in and out of the bathroom and grab their mail and apparently sustain themselves with food despite never going to the cafeteria.  

 

12 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I don't think that sprawl has anything at all to do with people being shy, lonely, or whatever.  People choose to engage with the world or they don't.  

 

Every floor of every college dormitory had the loner guy whose door was never open.  They were more a rumor than a going concern.  They'd slip in and out of the bathroom and grab their mail and apparently sustain themselves with food despite never going to the cafeteria.  

 

But empirical evidence is showing that it is getting worse. Maybe this is the wrong thread for this phenomenon? It is easy to blame sprawl, but what is the real main cause? With sprawl, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. What do studies show is causing this almost epidemic of loneliness? 

I don't know how much I'd blame sprawl on increasing isolation. After all, how many people live in dense condos and apartments but only know a few, if any, neighbors at best.

 

I'm sure increasing loneliness is caused by many conflating issues - the Internet, overreliance on online dating, absurd costs of living affecting relationships and childbearing, unresolved national traumas stemming from 9/11, Iraq, the 2008 economic collapse, and COVID... it goes on and on. Sprawl is the least of our problems.

 

 

 

On 4/21/2023 at 1:28 PM, KJP said:

 

 

There are a lot of sources of social isolation/selective socialization (TV, Internet, Air Conditioning, Auto-mobility) that also contributed to sprawling development and Acres O'Parking.  The Freedom Party loves it and doesn't want it to change. 

 

But sprawl is f*ing expensive! $1.07 B for Indy to maintain its infrastructure is a huge problem.  They're still building further and further out and that bill is rising and the infrastructure is aging.  Add in politicians' disdain for "maintenance" over ribbon-cutting and it's a recipe for infrastructure problems -- collapsing bridges, potholes, water main breaks, etc. 

 

Fiscal Conservatives need to educate the freedom-loving Republicans about ways to better balance their ability to have their own space without bankrupting the community.  They're certainly not going to listen to "liberals" on the subject (and are there any liberals in Indiana?)

31 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I don't think that sprawl has anything at all to do with people being shy, lonely, or whatever.  People choose to engage with the world or they don't.  

 

Every floor of every college dormitory had the loner guy whose door was never open.  They were more a rumor than a going concern.  They'd slip in and out of the bathroom and grab their mail and apparently sustain themselves with food despite never going to the cafeteria.  

 

 

Every meal was in a bowl out of the mini fridge. If you wanted to talk movies that was your guy. Back in high school he was in every activity and sport. Take whipcracking parents out of the situation and the overworked kids lock up once they have agency.

 

I will disagree with the sprawl comment regarding people being shy due to my personal experience. In elementary school I lived in a small town where most people could easily walk or bike to see their school friends. The only kids that were separate were a few that lived in the township and ones that lived in a big apartment complex north of town. Of course those kids in the apartments could all visit each other. There was diversity of thought and backgrounds that was tolerated and even celebrated. I can remember every single kid's personality because they all had strong ones, were assertive and most importantly spoke with each other often. Then for middle school we moved one district over to a semi-rural district where people sought and enforced monoculture. But there were multiple archetypes at this school.

 

1. Kids who lived in town. They were the most like the suburban kids from elementary. Not much diversity, but had personalities. Well spoken. Confident. Had bikes and could walk to things like stores and restaurants.

 

2. Trailer park kids. Lots of trailer parks in this district. Mostly like the kids who lived in town but could only walk and ride bikes to other residential. More likely to deal with poverty. Very outgoing. Strong personalities. Some struggled with confidence likely due to poverty and bad home situations. Lots more heavy accents, mostly Appalachian and Southern. More familiar with the big city due to constant travel back and forth to it because of family/services on the South and West Sides.

 

3. Farmers. Farmers usually live on isolated plots but still develop strong personalities and have to be well-spoken to deal with outside stakeholders and services. This is a job that will give you a strong personality and sense of humor whether you want it or not.

 

Now the big problem 4: The kids who lived on 1-5 acres on high speed roads. There were a ton of these. Almost all of them had to sit on the bus 1-2 hours a day. Half the time it was just them and 1-2 other kids on the bus that were years older or years younger than them so they had nothing to talk about. They had zero mobility until after 6pm and maybe not even that if their folks worked bad hours. All they did was go to school, do their homework and watch TV. They did not talk. Ever. They looked at the ground all the time. When forced to speak in school by the teacher they whispered while looking down at their paper the entire time. You never heard anything about them after graduation. There were literally zero of these kind of kids at the suburban school I went to for elementary.

You do have to make an effort. Before Covid(and I live near West Jefferson-(hell for a liberal)I had only spoken to 3 of my neighbors, but  not very much. I made an effort and now I have had conversations with all of them(8) and five have been in my home-I have been in some of their homes too. 

 

I was isolated and I chose to do something about it. You reach out, if someone does not respond, reach out to someone else.

 

But it isn't easy when you are a naturally shy person. 

 

People need to push themselves more than ever now to connect with other people.  If they flip out, bow out and stay away from them and try someone else. Covid definitely is part of the problem-I did not realize how bad the isolation would be.

 

And it is not sprawl out here, it is downright isolation! 

9 minutes ago, TBideon said:

 

 

I'm sure increasing loneliness is caused by many conflating issues - the Internet, overreliance on online dating, absurd costs of living affecting relationships and childbearing, unresolved national traumas stemming from 9/11, Iraq, the 2008 economic collapse, and COVID... it goes on and on. Sprawl is the least of our problems.

 

 

 

 

There are an enormous amount of older people that have no idea that the social structure that they used in the '50s, '60s and '70s to meet mates has been completely dismantled starting with the AIDS epidemic on through online dating. Columbus still had some singles bars as late as the late '90s.

1 minute ago, GCrites80s said:

 

There are an enormous amount of older people that have no idea that the social structure that they used in the '50s, '60s and '70s to meet mates has been completely dismantled starting with the AIDS epidemic on through online dating. Columbus still had some singles bars as late as the late '90s.

Older people are the epicenter of the loneliness epidemic.  

Oh very true. Could be divorce, loss or a personal network that has slowly disappeared. 

33 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

But empirical evidence is showing that it is getting worse. Maybe this is the wrong thread for this phenomenon? It is easy to blame sprawl, but what is the real main cause? With sprawl, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. What do studies show is causing this almost epidemic of loneliness? 

Even more than that, the article I linked argues that, empirically speaking, sprawl hasn't gotten worse since 1990, the basis point against we are seeing this uptick in loneliness. Indeed, it looks like trends are going in the opposite direction. (Which is good).

 

This looks to me like an urbanist forum having a hammer and insisting that every problem must be a nail.

 

And no, I'm not arguing sprawl is good, or even that it isn't a contributing factor to societal loneliness, only that it can't reasonably be attributed to this particular trend over the last 30 years. 

47 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Every meal was in a bowl out of the mini fridge. If you wanted to talk movies that was your guy. Back in high school he was in every activity and sport. 

 

 

 

Yeah, movie guys were the worst sort of people who lived in the dorms.  When I was at school, few people had TVs in their dorm rooms, but there was one low-quality projection TV in the lounge.  People would bring their own VCR down and we'd have to watch whatever movie they brought.  

 

There was this guy whose name I can't remember who lorded over that damn TV with his collection of 200+ VHS tapes.  He was one of those guys who would sneakily start telling you about a movie, you'd show polite interest, and then he'd mention that HE HAS THE TAPE and insist that you WATCH IT THIS VERY INSTANT. 

 

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Columbus still had some singles bars as late as the late '90s.

 

Have the meat markets disappeared?  Brother's, Miani's, Panini's, Ugly Tuna, whatever that other crap was in the Arena District?  

14 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

 

Yeah, movie guys were the worst sort of people who lived in the dorms.  When I was at school, few people had TVs in their dorm rooms, but there was one low-quality projection TV in the lounge.  People would bring their own VCR down and we'd have to watch whatever movie they brought.  

 

There was this guy whose name I can't remember who lorded over that damn TV with his collection of 200+ VHS tapes.  He was one of those guys who would sneakily start telling you about a movie, you'd show polite interest, and then he'd mention that HE HAS THE TAPE and insist that you WATCH IT THIS VERY INSTANT. 

 

 

 

 

Where I went to school all the dorms were converted apartment complexes which was also conductive to everyone having a TV in their room plus it had killer cable with over 80 channels. I'm sure that attracted a different kind of student in considering what most other schools had in the '90s. The school really struggled to attract suburban students (except from Cincinnati) and that was one of the hooks trying to get them in. They did much better with small town and rural kids at the time. 

25 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

There was this guy whose name I can't remember who lorded over that damn TV with his collection of 200+ VHS tapes.  He was one of those guys who would sneakily start telling you about a movie, you'd show polite interest, and then he'd mention that HE HAS THE TAPE and insist that you WATCH IT THIS VERY INSTANT. 

I think every school has one of these guys. lol. They dont leave their dorm room and spend their entire time (when they are not in class) playing video games and watching bad movies from what seems like their ever endless collection. Eventually, when people were in a bind for a movie they would use this person as their personal video store. 

2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think every school has one of these guys. lol. 

 

There's also emotional "guitar guy" who plays his acoustic guitar near the entrance to the dorm.  It's a dominance display.  

 

We had a guy who was a sophomore (you always had to look out for the sophomores in the dorm) who smoked seemingly all day and all night outside the door.  The guy held court four nine months straight.  

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

Oh very true. Could be divorce, loss or a personal network that has slowly disappeared. 

I feel like with older people they have become increasingly scared of the world and prefer to lock themselves up at home for safety. 

Can't really blame them. Things are bad, bleak, getting worse. It really does feel like the country is falling apart.

7 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Can't really blame them. Things are bad, bleak, getting worse. It really does feel like the country is falling apart.

It might be better without a very loud orange maniac braying about how bad things are. My parents in their 70s now say "they're too old for this world" and have shut themselves up a bit. Might be best to pass the torch to Gen X now, and let some younger people with more confidence about the future take the helm. 

23 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Can't really blame them. Things are bad, bleak, getting worse. It really does feel like the country is falling apart.

I mean outside of a rise in hate groups and morons waving nazi flags, violent crime is still nowhere near its highest. People are so focused on bad news all the time, they think if they leave their house they are going to get shot anywhere. 

2 hours ago, Foraker said:

Fiscal Conservatives need to educate the freedom-loving Republicans about ways to better balance their ability to have their own space without bankrupting the community.  They're certainly not going to listen to "liberals" on the subject (and are there any liberals in Indiana?)

 

There are!  And they all live in Indianapolis, and all define sprawl the same way their conservative neighbors do: "all autocentric, single-use (except for big box retail on the main drags), single-family housing developments further out than the one I live in." 😜

 

2 hours ago, Foraker said:

Fiscal Conservatives need to educate the freedom-loving Republicans about ways to better balance their ability to have their own space without bankrupting the community.  They're certainly not going to listen to "liberals" on the subject (and are there any liberals in Indiana?)

 

Don't look at me!  I'm on record as stating that if someone actually wanted to build a 60-unit 5-over-1 in the middle of Hunting Valley and could solve the water/sewer/trash issue, zoning shouldn't stand in the way.

 

2 hours ago, TBideon said:

I'm sure increasing loneliness is caused by many conflating issues - the Internet, overreliance on online dating ...

 

I think that's more hookup culture generally rather than online dating specifically; there's plenty of loneliness to be found in modern in-person dating, too.  The online aspect is a red herring.  I met my wife through online dating.  As people are well aware from my long history on these boards, I excel at winning friends and influencing people through anonymous online writing.

 

(I can't believe she actually married me.)

 

(Sometimes she can't, either.)

 

(But I digress.)

 

Now I'm married into an Indian family and, as of Saturday when her parents arrive for the summer from Chennai, I'll have eight people living under my roof until the weather turns cold here again.  Of all the problems I got from online dating, loneliness ain't one.

 

That said, when we were just getting to know each other, it didn't hurt that we both lived in or near downtown Akron.  Who knows how those early days would have gone if I'd lived out in the sprawlburbs of Medina or Streetsboro?

 

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

I don't think that sprawl has anything at all to do with people being shy, lonely, or whatever.  People choose to engage with the world or they don't.  

 

People choose to engage with the world that they can access.  The online world is easy to access and access is pretty close to universal (which is in most ways a good thing).  The real world is not so even, and "transaction costs" (difficulty of access or the "ante" of time and money, particularly time, necessary to do any given form of engagement) matter.

 

Exurban and rural living increases those transaction costs.

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

There was this guy whose name I can't remember who lorded over that damn TV with his collection of 200+ VHS tapes.  He was one of those guys who would sneakily start telling you about a movie, you'd show polite interest, and then he'd mention that HE HAS THE TAPE and insist that you WATCH IT THIS VERY INSTANT. 

 

Oh, our obligatory token movie guy was worse than that.  My first quarter at OSU, I roomed in a quad with a journalism student who took advantage of the fact that the dorms had HBO back then (or some other commercial-free movie service, but I'm pretty sure it was HBO) and had a giant stockpile of blank VHS tapes and was constantly using them to record full-length movies.  Like all of us were with our audio cassette recorders back in the 1990s waiting for our favorite song to come on the radio so we could insta-press "record," except he did it all day and had the schedule in advance (and of course prominently tacked to his corkboard).  Rather than fight him for the TV, the other three of us in the quad all made friends with others on the floor who were more likely to be watching the things we wanted to watch anyway (i.e., sports).

 

28 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Can't really blame them. Things are bad, bleak, getting worse. It really does feel like the country is falling apart.

 

The 1990s between the dissolution of the USSR and 9/11 were something of a charmed decade, but let's not overdo it.

^Yeah, violent crime is down 50% or more since the 1990s, as is teenage pregnancy, motor vehicle deaths, cigarette smoking, and all sorts of other societal ills.  

 

MRIs, CT Scans, blood tests, and all sorts of medical magic ensures that we get much faster and better health care than was imaginable until recently.  

 

But no matter how easy and effortless their life is, a certain sort of person always wants to believe that things are always getting worse.   If you nudge them some happy facts to the contrary, they won't allow them to enter their math.  

Speaking of commuting to/from the suburbs - there were more motor vehicle deaths back in the 1950s than now - back when the U.S. population was half its current size, and people drove much, much less:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

 

Here is more proof that things keep getting much better, no matter what downer people think:

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 20232 yr by Lazarus

There are more metrics than just violent crime that indicate things have fallen off the cliff, in particular the rapid escalating costs of childcare, education, healthcare and real estate. THOSE are my biggest factors why things have downturned.

 

The 2020 riots and 2021 insurrection also opened my eyes how close the country is completely falling apart. Both events were closer to destabilizing the entire country than the "it's only property damage" and "we were just touring DC" loudmouths would believe.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

There's also emotional "guitar guy" who plays his acoustic guitar near the entrance to the dorm.  It's a dominance display.  

 

We had a guy who was a sophomore (you always had to look out for the sophomores in the dorm) who smoked seemingly all day and all night outside the door.  The guy held court four nine months straight.  

 

I had that guy dominated by cranking my amp up and playing Slayer. At least in my mind. He's playing G, C and D... that's beginner stuff!

25 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

OK, I really like this meme.

48 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Same vibe as this satirical article.

 

Quote

Fighting Gentrification: This White Family Refuses To Live In Any Neighborhood That Isn’t 100% White

 

https://clickhole.com/fighting-gentrification-this-white-family-refuses-to-l-1825121378/

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

There are more metrics than just violent crime that indicate things have fallen off the cliff, in particular the rapid escalating costs of childcare, education, healthcare and real estate. THOSE are my biggest factors why things have downturned.

 

Healthcare is the most egregious, since we as the "consumer" have no idea when the problems and the bills are going to strike.  A worst-case scenario - a prolonged disabling illness - is really bad for our finances.  There is a greater element of control with the others, and people are in the bad habit of making their lives more complicated than they need to be in order to present an affluent image.  

 

 

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

The 2020 riots and 2021 insurrection also opened my eyes how close the country is completely falling apart. Both events were closer to destabilizing the entire country than the "it's only property damage" and "we were just touring DC" loudmouths would believe.

 

IDK, I would have hardly known those things happened if I didn't occasionally log into websites like this one.  If you don't watch TV and aren't on social media, you come recognize how much all of this fear that people express online is literally the result of them exaggerating the danger of things they experience online.  It's not he result of in-person observations, but unfortunately, these same people can be easily convinced that they are seeing something other than what is actually happening.  

 

 

 

I'm making an in-person observation on the riots. It was terrifying.

24 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Healthcare is the most egregious, since we as the "consumer" have no idea when the problems and the bills are going to strike.  A worst-case scenario - a prolonged disabling illness - is really bad for our finances.  There is a greater element of control with the others, and people are in the bad habit of making their lives more complicated than they need to be in order to present an affluent image.  

 

 

 

IDK, I would have hardly known those things happened if I didn't occasionally log into websites like this one.  If you don't watch TV and aren't on social media, you come recognize how much all of this fear that people express online is literally the result of them exaggerating the danger of things they experience online.  It's not he result of in-person observations, but unfortunately, these same people can be easily convinced that they are seeing something other than what is actually happening.  

 

 

 

Yeah that’s why so many people still believe downtowns are destroyed from 2021, they don’t actually go anywhere to see that none of that is true and just regurgitate what they hear on tv. 
 

Here's a related find, from one of my teachers at Maple Heights who ended up on the school board and now runs the alumni group (he went there too).   Remember, the initial "sprawl" was places like Maple, Euclid, Lakewood, and Parma.

 

 

On 2/21/2023 at 3:42 PM, GCrites80s said:

OSU enrollment: 60K Population 900K = 6.7% students 

 

UC enrollment: 40K Population 300K = 13.3% students 

Without an adjustment for land area of each city, I'm not sure what these numbers mean.

People insist that OSU is the only reason for Columbus' success and density while ignoring how much of an influence on Cincinnati UC has.

8 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

People insist that OSU is the only reason for Columbus' success and density while ignoring how much of an influence on Cincinnati UC has.

 

What's weird is that you really can't tell much of a difference when UC is in session or out of session.  In the fall, traffic is bad for the first week of fall semester, but then it evens out.  

 

 

39 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

Without an adjustment for land area of each city, I'm not sure what these numbers mean.

 

28 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

People insist that OSU is the only reason for Columbus' success and density while ignoring how much of an influence on Cincinnati UC has.

Those numbers are not really apples to apples comparisons. Maybe if you use Hamilton County vs Franklin county, but you still do not get a good representation of the numbers that way.  

 

Ohio State has played a bigger role in Columbus success than UC has for Cincinnati. Ohio State was always the flagship state school and drew the top research dollars out of the state universities.  UC was much more akin to Cleveland State. Both were city schools and originally not part of the state system. They were there primarily to serve the city and commuting population of their areas and not originally intended as a top research centers. UC has changed and adapted much better than CSU has (mostly because Cleveland already had Case). However, both schools served different missions.

 

Until the early 2000's Ohio State was always an importer of students from the rest of the state whereas UC pretty much served as a commuter school and a solely Cincinnati concentration of students. Yes, students came from everywhere to UC but not as much as they do today. 

 

As the economy has changed in the last 40 years, Columbus has been able to leverage the heft of Ohio State to help fuel its growth whereas Cincinnati being a more diverse city relied on a concentration of its large businesses and less on the university for this. UC was later to the game on the innovation front because of the larger business community in the area than in Columbus say in the early 80s and 90s.

 

UC is playing a bigger role today, but Ohio State had a much more outsized influence in Columbus than UC had in Cincinnati. 

20 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

 

UC is playing a bigger role today, but Ohio State had a much more outsized influence in Columbus than UC had in Cincinnati. 

That influence extends over the entire namesake state.

 

To relate this to sprawl, it's the same reason many newer sports franchises aren't named for the city they're loacted in. A larger base of identity does wonders for the appeal. It adds to the base not only by association, but also disassociation with a more specific place someone may not like.

 

 

On 5/6/2023 at 11:39 AM, TheCOV said:

That influence extends over the entire namesake state.

 

To relate this to sprawl, it's the same reason many newer sports franchises aren't named for the city they're loacted in. A larger base of identity does wonders for the appeal. It adds to the base not only by association, but also disassociation with a more specific place someone may not like.

g

 

I think that really is only true when you have one primary city in a state. It really would not happen in Ohio where you have a diverse state and have many regional teams like the Reds that pull from OH,KY, IN, WV and TN. 

 

To be honest, I see it becoming less frequent in the last 20 years than in the 80s and 90s. Even teams that had the state name have changed to the city name. 

In Baseball you had the Florida Marlins in the 90s and California Angels. Now you have the Miami Marlins and Los-Angeles Angels of Anaheim. 

in Hockey, the 2 newest NHL teams carry the name of the cities (Las Vegas and Seattle). The last one to take a state name was Minnesota Wild and that is likely to do with the co-equal twin cities in many circumstances. 

NBA teams to relocate in the last 20 years (Memphis, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Charlotte) all carry the city name.
MLS Teams - St Louis, Cincinnati, Nashville, Charlotte, Miami - all have city names. 

 

 

A lot of it comes down to who is footing the bill for the stadium, as well.

 

Bless. 
 

https://www.cleveland.com/community/2023/06/online-group-says-brunswick-residents-are-getting-angry-about-i-71-interchange.html

 

Not gonna lie, this made me laugh;

 

She added she does not understand how the interchange mandate was passed without input from municipalities surrounding Strongsville or why a solution for Strongsville traffic congestion could not be found in Strongsville itself.

 

Some of these folks really do live in a self-defined, unctuous and rigid bubble and see everything outside of it as ‘not my problem’. 

I'm reluctantly posting this here. My reluctance is because I fear this will turn into a political debate rather than a discussion of how urban sprawl and its destruction of community have caused some good and bad aspects to fill in the void. On the good side, my wife, son and I go to Ukrainian festivals but they're almost always hosted by churches rather in town squares in walkable urban neighborhoods. We do not follow religions. It's irrelevant to us who hosts them as long as they exist.

 

On the other hand....