July 8, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: I'm reluctantly posting this here. My reluctance is because I fear this will turn into a political debate rather than a discussion of how urban sprawl and its destruction of community have caused some good and bad aspects to fill in the void. On the good side, my wife, son and I go to Ukrainian festivals but they're almost always hosted by churches rather in town squares in walkable urban neighborhoods. We do not follow religions. It's irrelevant to us who hosts them as long as they exist. On the other hand.... It seems as if festivals have been struggling a lot lately. While many are church related, and certainly church attendance nationwide is struggling, there are a number of non-affliated neighborhood festivals that also seem to be dying out or not what they once were. Crowds are down but the bigiger issue is that volunteers are down too and it is becoming more and more difficult to recruit the volunteers to put on such an event. What used to be something that everyone in the community would take part in, it now seems like a shrinking core group of people are involved and others just do not feel like or have the energy to get involved anymore. One thing (anecdotally) I have seen is that the rise of remote work and technology may play a role. Where, in the past, many of these groups planned their events on evenings and weekends, with flexible schedules, people now devote some of that time to work whereas they would have had that time blocked off in the past, thus making it harder to commit to volunteer. Couple that with the fact that there is a lot more burnout going on, people are less apt to volunteer their free time it seems.
July 9, 20231 yr 3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said: One thing (anecdotally) I have seen is that the rise of remote work and technology may play a role. Where, in the past, many of these groups planned their events on evenings and weekends, with flexible schedules, people now devote some of that time to work whereas they would have had that time blocked off in the past, thus making it harder to commit to volunteer. Couple that with the fact that there is a lot more burnout going on, people are less apt to volunteer their free time it seems. I agree with you it comes back to the number of volunteers willing to put together events. They are hard work. I don’t know about the remote work aspect. I work remotely and like to volunteer but find the problem often is the other volunteers are retired and they want to do schedule meetings during the day when I’m working. I have a little flexibility since I don’t commute to an office but I can’t regularly skip out during the workday. And the older volunteers aren’t interested in meeting after hours.
July 9, 20231 yr 17 hours ago, KJP said: I'm reluctantly posting this here. My reluctance is because I fear this will turn into a political debate rather than a discussion of how urban sprawl and its destruction of community have caused some good and bad aspects to fill in the void. On the good side, my wife, son and I go to Ukrainian festivals but they're almost always hosted by churches rather in town squares in walkable urban neighborhoods. We do not follow religions. It's irrelevant to us who hosts them as long as they exist. On the other hand.... I don't see how this tweet has anything to do with suburban sprawl. Losing religion is a worldwide trend, and is if anything faster in our more urbanized European peers. What connection do you see between the crisis of faith described in this unlinked article and suburban sprawl? Historically church attendance has been highest in more rural areas, so I don't see it as plausible that sprawl is causing this drop in attendance.
July 9, 20231 yr 15 hours ago, coneflower said: I agree with you it comes back to the number of volunteers willing to put together events. They are hard work. I don’t know about the remote work aspect. I work remotely and like to volunteer but find the problem often is the other volunteers are retired and they want to do schedule meetings during the day when I’m working. I have a little flexibility since I don’t commute to an office but I can’t regularly skip out during the workday. And the older volunteers aren’t interested in meeting after hours. I dont know the reasons why but it seems as if there has been a large drop off in people willing to volunteer in the last 10-15 years and festivals and events are struggling because of it. Maybe it is less people identify wiht a church or otherwise people just have less time on their hands. Maybe it is the rise of dual income households where both parties work that led to this decline.
July 9, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, Ethan said: I don't see how this tweet has anything to do with suburban sprawl. Losing religion is a worldwide trend, and is if anything faster in our more urbanized European peers. What connection do you see between the crisis of faith described in this unlinked article and suburban sprawl? Historically church attendance has been highest in more rural areas, so I don't see it as plausible that sprawl is causing this drop in attendance. I'm sure that sprawl contributes, because by its very nature spreads people out. But sprawl has been with us for a while (as have air-conditioning and cable or internet TV -- things that encourage people to stay inside). What has changed? Perhaps the expanding ubiquity of internet access and interactive electronic entertainment, combined with the post-COVID hangover of reluctance to regularly join large groups of people on a regular basis (probably encouraged by regular media reports on mass shootings). It's probably not just churches suffering, but any in-person group activity in clubs or civic organizations. People's "community" is an online gaming community, an online gardening forum, online video conferencing, or more people who are happy to be entertained by the internet without the drama of actual human relationships. I suspect that is far easier to "disappear" from a community in a sprawling neighborhood compared to a higher-density neighborhood like Lakewood.
July 31, 20231 yr Interesting video about Carmel, Indiana. For those unaware Carmel used to be a typical auto-centric generic burb, but has become a model of transitioning into an urban and walkable area with a sense of place. The mayor does a great job of explaining the advantages and methods used to transform Carmel, and has been in office since the 90's while spearheading this movement. While this kind of thing is typically championed by liberal progressives, the mayor of Carmel is a republican and puts forth these ideas in a manner that is more digestible to the masses than the left-leaning folks tend to. So for all the progressives who want to champion the merits of a more urban lifestyle to "normie" suburbanites - take some notes from this guy.
July 31, 20231 yr This looks almost like crocker park. Greater Cleveland could learn a lot from this! Here's how I see the conversation between the westside and eastside going over the years: 2004: EAST: hey we are building this new cool lifestyle center called Legacy Village, its gonna dominate the eastside shopping scene. Take that Beachwood Mall and La Place! WEST: Hey we are building this new lifestyle center too, but it has apartments above the storefronts like a traditional main street USA. We are going to call it Crocker Park. EAST: Haha! People live above businesses? Good luck with that! Eastside is so much cooler. 2006: EAST: Hey we are rebranding Eton and rehabbing the mall! It's going to dominate the eastside shopping scene! WEST: Yea we are going to start Crocker Phase II; there's going to be more stores, but we are going to add even more apartments and offices above the storefronts. What are you guys doing? EAST: Nothing beyond updating facades. No apartments, no new offices, just lipstick on a pig. WEST: So, what we are doing with our failed mall, Westgate? At best we hope it treads water. It's in a stable community that hopefully will support it. How about you failed mall? EAST: Yea about Randall Park Mall. Hopefully a massive online delivery company comes along. Maybe Sears Catalogue? 2014: EAST: Well Sushi Rock and just about everything else has closed at La Place, out-competed by Legacy Village and Eton, let's paint the facade and say it's ready for new tenants! WEST: So, no adding offices, residential, or any other uses? EAST: NO! We have The Container Store on the line, that will make us dominate the eastside shopping scene. WEST: Cool, American Greetings is moving their HQ out here to Crocker, its a massive influx of office workers that will make Crocker a true mixed use lifestyle center. Things have been good, but are only getting better. We are adding even more housing and a community center! EAST: Yea, we are putting a hotel on an outlot at Legacy village. That should fix things! We are working on this Van Aiken thing too. Some silly nonsense about a rapid stop and apartments. Put that on the back burner. 2018: EAST: Hey Westside! Guess What! We have a new, premier shopping destination opening called Pinecrest! We learned from you guys and put a hotel AND an office building in it! It's going to be JUST LIKE Crocker Park. WEST: But from looking at the plans, 90% of it is one floor, fancy strip malls? EAST: BUT IT HAS AN REI, AND A WHOLE FOODS! ITS GOING TO DOMINATE THE EASTSIDE SHOPPING SCENE! WEST: Yea, we added more hotels and offices around Crocker. Now we are expanding across Crocker rd to the other side of the street with even more office buildings. It's doing great. Thank you for asking! How's the expansion of Beachwood Mall coming along? EAST: Um.... We had some incidents? 2020: EAST: Covid, dammit! WEST: Covid, dammit! 2022: EAST: Well, about the first wave of businesses at Pinecrest, several have failed and we are tearing down and rebuilding for new tennants! We are actively trying to poach businesses from Eton and Legacy to dominate the eastside shopping scene. WEST: Any further mixed use development? EAST: LOL no. Just a curfew. That should fix things.
July 31, 20231 yr The development of Carmel has been piecemeal and blends into surrounding neighborhoods, with an emphasis on non-auto travel and traffic calming. Not a lifestyle center like Pinecrest or Crocker. It would be like if Brunswick decided to build an urban downtown with adjacent multifamily housing.
July 31, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Rustbelter said: The development of Carmel has been piecemeal and blends into surrounding neighborhoods, with an emphasis on non-auto travel and traffic calming. Not a lifestyle center like Pinecrest or Crocker. It would be like if Brunswick decided to build an urban downtown with adjacent multifamily housing. Carmel, despite being immediately adjacent to Indianapolis, does not have public transportation, so its emphasis on non-auto travel is questionable.
July 31, 20231 yr Non-auto travel in regards to creating a walkable and bikable community. I doubt Carmel has much say if Indianapolis or the state build public transit to their town. Of course, there is this https://www.youarecurrent.com/2019/02/21/carmel-to-study-public-transportation-options/
July 31, 20231 yr 21 minutes ago, Vincent_G said: Carmel, despite being immediately adjacent to Indianapolis, does not have public transportation, so its emphasis on non-auto travel is questionable. If I'm not mistaken, Crocker has very limited RTA service, more or less by their design.
July 31, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: If I'm not mistaken, Crocker has very limited RTA service, more or less by their design. It would be more accurate to say that they have RTA service, by their design. It's very limited, by dint of the fact that it is extremely difficult to effectively serve outer ring suburbs with public transit.
August 1, 20231 yr 18 hours ago, E Rocc said: If I'm not mistaken, Crocker has very limited RTA service, more or less by their design. Yes, like the entire city of Carmel, Crocker is car-oriented--a simulacrum of urban life.
August 1, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Vincent_G said: Yes, like the entire city of Carmel, Crocker is car-oriented--a simulacrum of urban life. I have to laugh every time I go to Crocker and even more of the meter spaces are bagged for "so and so pickup zone" etc. They tried to imitate an old fashioned "main street USA", but of course suburbanites want to be able to pull up and park in front of their store or restaurant whenever they feel like it....
August 1, 20231 yr 20 minutes ago, Cleburger said: I have to laugh every time I go to Crocker and even more of the meter spaces are bagged for "so and so pickup zone" etc. They tried to imitate an old fashioned "main street USA", but of course suburbanites want to be able to pull up and park in front of their store or restaurant whenever they feel like it.... Which is another reason indoor malls have become largely passe.
August 1, 20231 yr Considering that the capacity of the on-street parking in these developments is miniscule as compared to the lots and garages on site it is more of a visual panacea than a statistical amount. Edited August 1, 20231 yr by GCrites
August 1, 20231 yr I don't usually bother with trying to use those spaces since there's too much chance of them being full. Then I have to drive back outside into a lot when I could have just parked and been inside by now. Good place for restaurant valets to park Lamborghinis tho
August 1, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, GCrites said: Good place for restaurant valets to park Lamborghinis tho In Cincinnati, *the owner* of a restaurant will park his Ferrari in front of his own restaurant, to make it look like someone famous is eating there.
August 1, 20231 yr 1 minute ago, Lazarus said: In Cincinnati, *the owner* of a restaurant will park his Ferrari in front of his own restaurant, to make it look like someone famous is eating there. The owner of the old Mining Company (Parma-Cleveland border) used to do similar, I forget what he drove.
August 1, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, E Rocc said: The owner of the old Mining Company (Parma-Cleveland border) used to do similar, I forget what he drove. The valet guys always seem to think that they're some sort of mini-superstar. You run into the same sort of guy who works the lot at a higher-end car dealership, like Infiniti or Lexus. These guys think they made it since they get to vacuum cars that they can't possibly afford.
August 1, 20231 yr 50 minutes ago, Lazarus said: In Cincinnati, *the owner* of a restaurant will park his Ferrari in front of his own restaurant, to make it look like someone famous is eating there. Ha! That's honestly a good idea.
August 1, 20231 yr 47 minutes ago, coneflower said: Ha! That's honestly a good idea. Sure! The same reason a club owner holds people at the door to make a big line happen!
August 1, 20231 yr On 7/31/2023 at 2:10 AM, originaljbw said: This looks almost like crocker park. Greater Cleveland could learn a lot from this! Here's how I see the conversation between the westside and eastside going over the years: 2004: EAST: hey we are building this new cool lifestyle center called Legacy Village, its gonna dominate the eastside shopping scene. Take that Beachwood Mall and La Place! WEST: Hey we are building this new lifestyle center too, but it has apartments above the storefronts like a traditional main street USA. We are going to call it Crocker Park. EAST: Haha! People live above businesses? Good luck with that! Eastside is so much cooler. 2006: EAST: Hey we are rebranding Eton and rehabbing the mall! It's going to dominate the eastside shopping scene! WEST: Yea we are going to start Crocker Phase II; there's going to be more stores, but we are going to add even more apartments and offices above the storefronts. What are you guys doing? EAST: Nothing beyond updating facades. No apartments, no new offices, just lipstick on a pig. WEST: So, what we are doing with our failed mall, Westgate? At best we hope it treads water. It's in a stable community that hopefully will support it. How about you failed mall? EAST: Yea about Randall Park Mall. Hopefully a massive online delivery company comes along. Maybe Sears Catalogue? 2014: EAST: Well Sushi Rock and just about everything else has closed at La Place, out-competed by Legacy Village and Eton, let's paint the facade and say it's ready for new tenants! WEST: So, no adding offices, residential, or any other uses? EAST: NO! We have The Container Store on the line, that will make us dominate the eastside shopping scene. WEST: Cool, American Greetings is moving their HQ out here to Crocker, its a massive influx of office workers that will make Crocker a true mixed use lifestyle center. Things have been good, but are only getting better. We are adding even more housing and a community center! EAST: Yea, we are putting a hotel on an outlot at Legacy village. That should fix things! We are working on this Van Aiken thing too. Some silly nonsense about a rapid stop and apartments. Put that on the back burner. 2018: EAST: Hey Westside! Guess What! We have a new, premier shopping destination opening called Pinecrest! We learned from you guys and put a hotel AND an office building in it! It's going to be JUST LIKE Crocker Park. WEST: But from looking at the plans, 90% of it is one floor, fancy strip malls? EAST: BUT IT HAS AN REI, AND A WHOLE FOODS! ITS GOING TO DOMINATE THE EASTSIDE SHOPPING SCENE! WEST: Yea, we added more hotels and offices around Crocker. Now we are expanding across Crocker rd to the other side of the street with even more office buildings. It's doing great. Thank you for asking! How's the expansion of Beachwood Mall coming along? EAST: Um.... We had some incidents? 2020: EAST: Covid, dammit! WEST: Covid, dammit! 2022: EAST: Well, about the first wave of businesses at Pinecrest, several have failed and we are tearing down and rebuilding for new tennants! We are actively trying to poach businesses from Eton and Legacy to dominate the eastside shopping scene. WEST: Any further mixed use development? EAST: LOL no. Just a curfew. That should fix things. Typical westsider comment. Here's how every conversation actually goes: WEST: Hey Eastside, you guys think you're so great, but we're so much better! EAST: Nobody ever said that, Mister Strawman. Why so defensive? WEST: We're the best, you just can't admit it! EAST: We got no beef. You do you. We like the eastside, but we like coming to the westside, too. WEST: You sound stuck up, always thinking you're the best. We're the best! EAST: Whatevs. Carry on. Edited August 1, 20231 yr by jam40jeff
August 1, 20231 yr We could use a Side Rivalry in Columbus like you all in Cleveland and Cincinnati have. Instead it's: Cool Crescent: "I never think about you, Uncool Crescent, because you're all warehouses and auto repair." Uncool Crescent: "Sure is nice up there in the Cool Crescent. Too bad you cost so much to live in."
August 2, 20231 yr 6 hours ago, Lazarus said: In Cincinnati, *the owner* of a restaurant will park his Ferrari in front of his own restaurant, to make it look like someone famous is eating there. Yes, they definitely do that to make people think there is a celebrity there, and not to impress the 19 year old hostess they just hired.
August 13, 20231 yr On 8/1/2023 at 8:17 PM, X said: Yes, they definitely do that to make people think there is a celebrity there, and not to impress the 19 year old hostess they just hired. Oh, it's a combination thereof. Edited August 13, 20231 yr by E Rocc
August 13, 20231 yr On 7/9/2023 at 1:58 PM, Foraker said: . I suspect that is far easier to "disappear" from a community in a sprawling neighborhood compared to a higher-density neighborhood like Lakewood. That's a positive because the flip side is it's far easier to re-appear. The same is true with online communities.
August 14, 20231 yr On 8/1/2023 at 1:48 PM, E Rocc said: The owner of the old Mining Company (Parma-Cleveland border) used to do similar, I forget what he drove. whoa the mining company lol —
August 15, 20231 yr On 8/13/2023 at 11:48 AM, E Rocc said: That's a positive because the flip side is it's far easier to re-appear. The same is true with online communities. An online community, where you instantly connect with everyone, is probably the easiest to appear in and disappear from. I don't see the same circumstances in a low-density sprawl, which I always thought had a much looser connection to any sort of "community" than a small town. YMMV
October 10, 20231 yr Greater Detroit. Same metro population. Several times more public infrastructure, services and taxes... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 10, 20231 yr We always talk past each other on this topic. I don’t think anyone is questioning that sprawl is increasing and I don’t think anyone is doubting that it is less socially efficient than density. The point is, the majority of people value elbow room more than social efficiency and are willing to pay the cost of sprawl. If it’s weighed by tax payments that preference is even stronger. Infrastructure is a popular way for governments to spend money, people who oppose other forms of government spending (defense and police on the left, social spending on the right) can agree on it. No one is talking about spending less if there is less sprawl, just about spending it differently. No one believes government will shink. There’s plenty of density already for people who want it, and plenty of room for more.
October 10, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: There’s plenty of density already for people who want it, and plenty of room for more. There isn't or places with density wouldn't be worth so much more than sprawl per acre. Sprawl is actually a symptom of low land value. Density is a function of high land value. If there was enough density land value in dense areas would decrease and land value in sprawl would increase. And if "elbow room" was more popular than access to amenities and jobs, Appalachia's real estate values wouldn't be so depressed.
October 11, 20231 yr Another cost of sprawl More hurdles for beginning farmers as farmland prices rise across Ohio WYSO | By Alejandro Figueroa Published October 6, 2023 Quote In August, the U.S.Department of Agriculture reported the average price of cropland in Ohio rose 8.6% from last year with an average price per acre at about $8,200. Some advocates say that’s making it increasingly hard for beginning farmers to enter the market. ... Adding to the pressure is increasing input prices with a projected decrease in farm revenue at the end of 2023, according to the USDA. ... Long said inflation and investors buying land for development is driving farmland prices higher. Because of those barriers, she’s seen more beginning farmers use creative approaches to enter into the market like growing wheat or hops and using their crop insurance as collateral. https://www.ideastream.org/2023-10-06/more-hurdles-for-beginning-farmers-as-farmland-prices-rise-across-ohio
October 11, 20231 yr I can't believe average people still get into farming. Of course the situation article is actually more of a family succession issue but there really are people out there wanting to get in from scratch. I would have never gotten into any of the businesses that I have actually done if situations didn't force my hand though.
October 11, 20231 yr 7 minutes ago, GCrites said: I can't believe average people still get into farming. Of course the situation article is actually more of a family succession issue but there really are people out there wanting to get in from scratch. I would have never gotten into any of the businesses that I have actually done if situations didn't force my hand though. Interestingly enough, I was talking to a family friend that runs a farm stand on the weekends near their front yard in an inner ring suburb. They grow about 1.1 acres of crops a year and supplement their family income by about $15-$25k depending on the year just from their crops. They also sell things from local gardens and take 20%.
October 11, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, YABO713 said: They grow about 1.1 acres of crops a year and supplement their family income by about $15-$25k depending on the year just from their crops. They also sell things from local gardens and take 20%. Unfortunately, it's really tough to make it as a farmer, it's a lot easier to manage as a second income. You never know how much you're going to make, year-to-year, but a big farm requires a big up-front investment so if you have a bad year you start the next year in debt. It really is a boom-bust business. Few family-size farms are hugely profitable. And it's hard work, physically. How many family farms are there in Cuyahoga County? Are we willing to subsidize some number of farms to keep the family farm from disappearing? Or are we ok with Walmart parking lots taking over more farmland? Or maybe we just need to find more ways to encourage 1-10 acre hobby farms. 20 hours ago, E Rocc said: The point is, the majority of people value elbow room more than social efficiency and are willing to pay the cost of sprawl. If it’s weighed by tax payments that preference is even stronger. Infrastructure is a popular way for governments to spend money, people who oppose other forms of government spending (defense and police on the left, social spending on the right) can agree on it. No one is talking about spending less if there is less sprawl, just about spending it differently. No one believes government will shink. There’s plenty of density already for people who want it, and plenty of room for more. I think this misses the point of discussions on the cost of sprawl. In a moderately-dense neighborhood, it might cost $X to build and (more importantly) maintain all the infrastructure. But as that same population spreads out further and further the cost increase exponentially -- and the people spreading out to get "elbow room" are not paying exponentially more than the people still living in moderately-dense core of our cities. This is what we mean when we say that sprawl is being subsidized. And the exponentially increased maintenance costs are unsustainable. You say that people are willing to spend for their elbow room, and yet it's the sprawling suburbs that support the politicians seeking to cut taxes -- they don't want to pay for it. The system sort of works now, while the sprawl infrastructure is fairly new and doesn't need much maintenance. But eventually that maintenance cost is going to be a real problem for low-density communities. (See Appalachia -- @GCrites )
October 11, 20231 yr On 10/10/2023 at 2:05 PM, E Rocc said: We always talk past each other on this topic. I don’t think anyone is questioning that sprawl is increasing and I don’t think anyone is doubting that it is less socially efficient than density. The point is, the majority of people value elbow room more than social efficiency and are willing to pay the cost of sprawl. If it’s weighed by tax payments that preference is even stronger. Infrastructure is a popular way for governments to spend money, people who oppose other forms of government spending (defense and police on the left, social spending on the right) can agree on it. No one is talking about spending less if there is less sprawl, just about spending it differently. No one believes government will shink. There’s plenty of density already for people who want it, and plenty of room for more. The people who value elbow room should pay for the costs associated with it, then. But they don't. If they did, we would start seeing what the true level of demand for it really is. I know plenty of people who "settled" out in the suburbs because they couldn't find a house in the city within their price range.
October 11, 20231 yr One way they pay if they are far enough out is having to deal with wells, septic tanks and drain-to-creek situations. All of these increase risk and have their own costs to them that don't make them "free". Septic tanks require maintenance and that's a cost that comes as one big bill rather than a periodic one as seen with city sewer. Wells can go dry or get dirty, the electric water pump adds to the electric bill (no water when the power's out), electric water pumps love to get hit by lightning (we replaced 4 due to this). And of course drain-to-creek is problematic unless it's just roof runoff. All of these things reduce home values as compared to city services.
October 12, 20231 yr On 10/10/2023 at 6:49 PM, GCrites said: There isn't or places with density wouldn't be worth so much more than sprawl per acre. Sprawl is actually a symptom of low land value. Density is a function of high land value. If there was enough density land value in dense areas would decrease and land value in sprawl would increase. And if "elbow room" was more popular than access to amenities and jobs, Appalachia's real estate values wouldn't be so depressed. Sprawl plus freeways leads to both elbow room and access. Sprawl after the war was largely driven by formerly rural people accustomed to the former who also got accustomed to the latter.
October 12, 20231 yr 11 hours ago, jonoh81 said: The people who value elbow room should pay for the costs associated with it, then. But they don't. If they did, we would start seeing what the true level of demand for it really is. I know plenty of people who "settled" out in the suburbs because they couldn't find a house in the city within their price range. They do pay for it. The bulk of the taxes that do come from them.
October 12, 20231 yr 12 hours ago, jonoh81 said: I know plenty of people who "settled" out in the suburbs because they couldn't find a house in the city within their price range. This shows a misalignment between supply and demand to me. I see negative comments online all the time about suburbanites who chose to live outside the city. But the housing available in Cleveland may not match their needs. A lot of Cleveland’s housing is old and deteriorated, lacking amenities like central air or not sized/laid out based on modern needs. Hardly anyone wants to move into a house that needs gutted or completely renovated… unless you are wealthy and the house is in a location that makes it worth it.
October 12, 20231 yr All of Ohio really suffers from an oversupply of now-unpopular prewar SFH. 15-20 years ago people were more willing to rehab or put up with the houses' tantrums to save money or be in a hot neighborhood. Now it seems the patience for that is drying up and people either want a full high-quality rehab performed already by someone else or postwar. Or they don't want/can't do SFH at all. This is reflected in the values of survivor prewar SFH and evenmoreso in non-move-in-ready.
October 12, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, coneflower said: This shows a misalignment between supply and demand to me. I see negative comments online all the time about suburbanites who chose to live outside the city. But the housing available in Cleveland may not match their needs. A lot of Cleveland’s housing is old and deteriorated, lacking amenities like central air or not sized/laid out based on modern needs. Hardly anyone wants to move into a house that needs gutted or completely renovated… unless you are wealthy and the house is in a location that makes it worth it. Nobody has mentioned school systems. Where I live, many people (who can't or won't use private schools) move out of DC to the burbs to avoid the near-worthless DC secondary schools. I can see that being a driver in Cleveland, too. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
October 12, 20231 yr In Ohio if you get just a little too far out the schools start sucking again badly. If everyone is originally from there and all the kids' parents do the same thing for a living it's a bad school.
October 12, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, GCrites said: All of Ohio really suffers from an oversupply of now-unpopular prewar SFH. 15-20 years ago people were more willing to rehab or put up with the houses' tantrums to save money or be in a hot neighborhood... 20 years ago those houses may have been in better condition, too. Before I bought a house a couple years ago, I might think people have a lack of creativity or vision. But now having bought a house, I'm a lot more understanding why people don't want to deal with renovating. It's really expensive and hard work finding and managing contractors. In another thread, someone mentioned a historic house in Cleveland could not be demolished even though all the repairs and renovations needed to make it livable would total $400K, which is theoretically cheaper than a new house. People have jobs and families and don't have the money or time to deal with that.
October 12, 20231 yr 7 hours ago, E Rocc said: They do pay for it. The bulk of the taxes that do come from them. And yet people who move out of the city frequently cite the high taxes as reasons to leave. That suggests that the sprawlers are actually paying lower taxes, and not paying their fair share for the extra infrastructure needed to reach them.
October 12, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Foraker said: And yet people who move out of the city frequently cite the high taxes as reasons to leave. That suggests that the sprawlers are actually paying lower taxes, and not paying their fair share for the extra infrastructure needed to reach them. Most of that is done by the state or feds. Perhaps the county.
October 13, 20231 yr 9 hours ago, GCrites said: All of Ohio really suffers from an oversupply of now-unpopular prewar SFH. 15-20 years ago people were more willing to rehab or put up with the houses' tantrums to save money or be in a hot neighborhood. Now it seems the patience for that is drying up and people either want a full high-quality rehab performed already by someone else or postwar. Or they don't want/can't do SFH at all. This is reflected in the values of survivor prewar SFH and evenmoreso in non-move-in-ready. I love pre-war homes, 1920s and earlier. 1950s-1970s are my least favorite by far.
October 13, 20231 yr A lot of people still do, it's just not enough to keep the values afloat as compared to the seemingly endless supply.
October 13, 20231 yr On 10/12/2023 at 3:57 AM, E Rocc said: They do pay for it. The bulk of the taxes that do come from them. It's well-known at this point that sprawl is subsidized by urban areas, though. https://grist.org/cities/starving-the-cities-to-feed-the-suburbs/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046202000339 Edited October 13, 20231 yr by jonoh81
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