^^^^^^(okay this is response to the discrimination post lol) I dont think thats the only reason. Some neighborhoods began to fall apart in the 50's and 60's. Overcrowding, people could move to a suburb and have a house to themselves instead of sharing one with several families. The automobile and highways became a part of the culture. People who lived in lets say Collinwood could now move out further east into a brand new, clean, safe, family filled neighborhood and still drive to work in the same amount of time due to the highway. There were a lot of factors that led to the decline, a lot being the national culture of the time. Now, cities must reinvent themselves. Many of our neighborhoods aren't set up that great in the first place. Its not like we are an urban paradise. Many of our neighborhood within city limits aren't that walkable and the drive to stores can be further then living in a suburb. Neighborhoods in Cleveland such as Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit Shoreway, University Circle, Little Italy, and Shaker square are, and can be great neighborhoods. But many others dont necessarily have the great amenities of an urban neighborhood.

By affordable, I mean Rents don't exceed 30% of 80% of the area median income OR do they accept section 8 vouchers.

I've never understood the complaint against having to walk a few blocks here and there to do things.  I'd be lying if I said I love walking in snow and rain, but I dislike driving in snow and rain even more.

 

To me walking is a great way to stay in shape and is far less stressful than having to put my son in a car seat, put wear/tear on my car and fill up the gas tank at $4/gallon every week.  I know it's a stereotype, but many of the people I know who want to drive everywhere and complain about walking a few blocks tend to be the ones with physiques that put the "sprawl" in urban sprawl.

and by discrimination I don't mean race. I mean any number of factors upon which a person could be discriminated, i.e. race, religion, gender, age, income, class, skin color, sexual orientation, etc.

The suburbs I've been to around here at least have a very diverse population.

 

...

 

When I lived in North Olmsted I saw a lot of diversity as well.

 

Huh?  Diverse?  One black person out of about 70 isn't diverse!

 

I'm pretty sure you live in Middleburg Heights now from some past statements.

 

From Wikipedia:

The racial makeup of the city was 94.63% White, 1.33% African American, 0.15% Native American, 2.26% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 0.28% from other races, and 1.28% from two or more races.

 

And North Olmsted:

The racial makeup of the city was 93.97% White, 1.01% African American, 0.13% Native American, 2.74% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.45% from other races, and 1.68% from two or more races.

 

Sorry, 90%+ white is anything but diverse.  Sadly, there's probably many people from lily white (99%+) suburbs that think having 1 or 2% of a specific minority is "a lot".

That may be the racial divide in HOUSES, but I have spent my life in apartments, and I would be willing to bet that's where the diversity numbers are that you do see. Come spend the evening walking around in my apt complex. Whites are definitely the minority. Sorry, but that is my "neighborhood." There are over 900 units in our complex, it's like a small city. I'm sorry if you don't think that "counts" but to me, it does. I see plenty of minorities shopping in my local Heinen's, a black guy runs my dry cleaner, arabs run the corner food store, etc.

To be fair, several Cleveland neighborhoods aren't diverse either. Look at most east side neighborhoods and those numbers are flipped, 99% Black. So although North Olmstead is not diverse in any means, it is actually more diverse then several Cleveland neighborhoods

and as to age, class, sexual orientation, ok, I don't think we have a whole lot of homosexuals, but I obviously don't know that for sure. I haven't seen any guys that look like "couples" out walking but that doesn't mean they don't live there. I have seen a couple of women I think are gay, they set off my personal gaydar.  We have people from all classes, from what I can tell of the cars and clothing and watching them walk in and out. And lots of elderly people, at least 3 in my 12 building unit.

There are over 900 units in our complex, it's like a small city.

 

Based on the stats, there are 212 African Americans in the entire city of Middleburg Heights.  Even if every single one of them lived in your apartment complex, it'd still be less than 20% black.  Granted, that is still fairly diverse, especially for a suburb.  However, I don't think you can extrapolate your experience then to a discussion on why most suburbanites live in the suburbs.  If your apartment complex really is diverse, that makes the REST of Middleburg Heights all that much less diverse, which furthers the point that most people living there are living amongst almost no diversity.

I'm just saying it's not like people moved here BECAUSE it's exclusionary or to "get away from" any particular class. I just think that is reverse discrimimatory talk perpetuated by people who live in urban areas, based on 60s/70s "white flight" which is just no longer applicable. Whether or not there are 212, 2112 or 10,000 black people in middleburg heights is not why I chose or did not choose to go there, nor had anything to do with why I chose the other burbs I have lived in (westlake, N Olmsted, Lakewood, and Cleveland/w side). I chose them because of the street layout, the quick access to downtown, to the stores I want to visit (proximity to great northern for example), to the bus or train line I was taking at the time, to the mix of restaurants and shops I want to visit, because they had the type of apartments I like (carpeted, heat included, with a lot of amenities like a workout room, playground, basketball court, covered parking/parking lot), etc. 

 

I have no desire to live on the E side but it has NOTHING to do with race. I hate the way the streets are laid out. I hate how far away most things are that I would want to go to/do. I hate, hate, hate Beachwood mall and the snooty-ness of the people who shop there, the overpriced, snooty shops and the horrible traffic. 

And what about people who are HERE every day but maybe don't live here. Are those who work here or who visit shops here, they don't count? The black guy that runs my dry cleaner, does he not count? the arabs who run the corner food store, do they not count in presenting a "diverse" city to someone visiting?

bfwissel - It's accounts like yours that make me confident that I could raise a family in downtown or OTR Cincinnati. My girlfriend and I are moving to OTR in July, and I'm slowly but surely convincing her we could have a family in the 'hood.

Fantastic!  XUMelanie and I will see you at the Neon's outdoor patio this summer.  We'll be the couple with only one kid (boy), but with no dogs :-) .

bfwissel - It's accounts like yours that make me confident that I could raise a family in downtown or OTR Cincinnati. My girlfriend and I are moving to OTR in July, and I'm slowly but surely convincing her we could have a family in the 'hood.

Fantastic!  XUMelanie and I will see you at the Neon's outdoor patio this summer.  We'll be the couple with only one kid (boy), but with no dogs :-) .

 

Sounds good! We're moving in above Park&Vine, so we'll be at Neon's A LOT! lol

I'm just saying it's not like people moved here BECAUSE it's exclusionary or to "get away from" any particular class. I just think that is reverse discrimimatory talk perpetuated by people who live in urban areas, based on 60s/70s "white flight" which is just no longer applicable.

 

Or it could just be the truth.

 

Whether or not there are 212, 2112 or 10,000 black people in middleburg heights is not why I chose or did not choose to go there, nor had anything to do with why I chose the other burbs I have lived in (westlake, N Olmsted, Lakewood, and Cleveland/w side). I chose them because of the street layout, the quick access to downtown, to the stores I want to visit (proximity to great northern for example), to the bus or train line I was taking at the time, to the mix of restaurants and shops I want to visit, because they had the type of apartments I like (carpeted, heat included, with a lot of amenities like a workout room, playground, basketball court, covered parking/parking lot), etc.

 

Again, I think you're mistaking your preferences for every suburbanites.  First of all, you post on Urban Ohio, so you're not an average suburbanite.  I work with a bunch of people that think I'm a whackjob just for reading this forum.  One of them recently said something about how there are nice neighborhoods in the Heights but he'd be afraid "they might invade" (no lie, exact words) since it's "too close to the bad areas".  Now tell me his choices in where to live aren't in at least some part racially (or at the very least socioeconomically) motivated.

I have no idea of where to post this question, but since it is a 'sprawl' thread..

 

Why is it that everywhere I look, Columbus is listed as being about 210 or 212 square miles, but the city itself ( http://development.columbus.gov/demographics.aspx ) lists the corporate boundary as approximately 227 square miles with an increase of 4.6 percent since 2000?  Not sure if this belongs here, but this is a very knowledgeable group here and thought maybe someone ( like ColDayMan, who knows just about anything) could answer this?

 

Thanks. I just like to keep track of the statistics for the city and all, so this bugs, ya know?

 

*also, how many posts does it take to get off of the 'surface lot' lol?

bfwissel - It's accounts like yours that make me confident that I could raise a family in downtown or OTR Cincinnati. My girlfriend and I are moving to OTR in July, and I'm slowly but surely convincing her we could have a family in the 'hood.

Fantastic!  XUMelanie and I will see you at the Neon's outdoor patio this summer.  We'll be the couple with only one kid (boy), but with no dogs :-) .

 

Sounds good! We're moving in above Park&Vine, so we'll be at Neon's A LOT! lol

 

I didn't read up-thread at first, and thought this was about Columbus.  Apparently we don't have a monopoly on corners of Park Streets and Vine Streets (with residential developments on such corners, to boot ... the Battleship Building in Columbus is by the corner of Park & Vine, though technically it's Front & Vine, since on the south side of Vine, Park becomes Front, and the Battleship Building is on the southeast corner of that intersection).

 

Originality fail. :-)

^Park and Vine is not a corner location in Cincinnati.  It's a green/organic...uh...general store?  Hard to describe it.  It's a very cool place, with some food, plenty of merchandise, etc.  But it's not an intersection.  (It used to be on Vine Street, but now it's on Main Street in OTR.)

Which is to say, Park and Vine is not discussing an intersection, but is rather just the name of the store. 

It was formerly located feet from the intersection of Central PARKway and VINE St, which is where it got its name. It recently move 2 blocks East and about 2 blocks North to have a larger store.

Ah, I'd never picked up on the Central Parkway piece. 

 

Didn't it also move because the new place is a LEED certified building, fitting in with their mission?

I have no idea of where to post this question, but since it is a 'sprawl' thread..

 

Why is it that everywhere I look, Columbus is listed as being about 210 or 212 square miles, but the city itself ( http://development.columbus.gov/demographics.aspx ) lists the corporate boundary as approximately 227 square miles with an increase of 4.6 percent since 2000?  Not sure if this belongs here, but this is a very knowledgeable group here and thought maybe someone ( like ColDayMan, who knows just about anything) could answer this?

 

Thanks. I just like to keep track of the statistics for the city and all, so this bugs, ya know?

 

*also, how many posts does it take to get off of the 'surface lot' lol?

 

Those original listings you cite (210-212) could be legacy numbers from as far back as 1990.

 

...visualizing sprawl by census block (as fine grained as you can get), population change... 2000-2010 census....Cincinnati/Dayton area.

 

Image from the excellent Datapoint.net growth rings gallery

 

(they have Cleveland/Akron and Columbus too).

 

 

From this one can see how Cincinnati is exploding outward, with big growth zones in Northern KY and the Warren/Butler County region..including a nice growth node WEST of the Great Miami in Trenton,  a place we dont hear much about.

 

Even declining, weak market Dayton is sprawling south and east mostly, in localized pockets, but some expansion northward into Miami County (the map cuts off north, so we miss the developments out around Tipp City). 

^Thanks for the link. The Cleveland/Akron/Canton map is here.

 

There was a lot of growth along the Lorain/Cuyahoga county line, Mentor, and in the Twinsburg/Aurora/Solon area. No surprise there. I think it's interesting to see the suburbs of Lorain and Cleveland merge, and the same with Akron and Canton.

 

The other interesting thing was seeing how little growth there is in Northwestern Geauga County. Considering the proximity to all the jobs along 271, one would expect more growth there. I think the lack of growth there helps illustrates the point that people choose to live near transportation options.

Those maps are awesome!

Saw this on the front page of the USA Today yesterday; thought I would share:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-05-20-chicago-blacks-exodus_n.htm

 

It's all about lifestyle.  Reality is people, regardless of race, don't want to deal with other people who can't manage themselves.  It adds challenges to their already challenging lives.  So you move to places where there are less challenges and things are structured to meet your needs...and you live among other people with similar needs.  Some neighborhoods in Cleveland are great, but they cater to more specific lifestyles...not to mention you have to deal with the City of Cleveland leaders, tax codes, and other general incompetence.

Some neighborhoods in Cleveland are great, but they cater to more specific lifestyles...not to mention you have to deal with the City of Cleveland leaders, tax codes, and other general incompetence.

 

What tax codes are you talking about (I wish my property taxes and local income taxes were as low as the city of Cleveland's)?  What City of Cleveland leaders are incompetent or corrupt or whatever you're hinting at?

If you live in Cleveland but work in another city, the city of Cleveland only credits 1% of your local income tax.  So if you pay 2% local tax to the city you work in, you then have to pay an additional 1% to Cleveland.  Most other cities give you full credit.  Not to mention the process for filing and paying is not very well managed.  I have had issues each year ensuring they are collecting the correct amount - they routinely try to tag you with fees/penalties even if they have no basis for it.

 

As far as incompetence, I have yet to deal with an efficient department frankly.  I've made countless calls, sent pictures - I even put together a powerpoint deck once - about various issues like trash pick up, street signage, street lighting, snow removal, leaf removal, and other rather basic services and only once (after I sent the powerpoint) was anything actually done about it.  And this would be over a 4 year period.  Although I kind of gave up on some of it and started doing some things on my own (if you ever see some guy with a shovel and a trash bag clearing drains on the street, that's me).

 

Police can be hit or miss depending on who you get a hold of.  I've had cars illegally parked blocking garages and sometimes they are ticketed/towed promptly and other times I've ended up being blocked in for hours.

 

The Cleveland Court System is notoriously slow. 

 

I don't know - or am accusing - of any corruption in any office, although Earle Turner certainly hasn't helped the court systems reputation.

The RITA system for filing and paying taxes is AWFUL. I actually scanned and sent forms and instructions to 3 different friends who work in accounting and finance but who live out of state (one is a statistician in goverment) and all said they were completely ridiculous, confusing and largely indecipherable. I had to actually call their help line this year and have a woman walk me through doing the form online, question by question, for over a half hour this year, and even with that there were 2 things that didn't work the way they were supposed to and we had to back up several questions and figure out what was wrong. Seriously, it is a total screw up.

welcome to the preposterousness of 59 municipalities in 1 county. "regional" income taxes are awful, ask people from other parts of the country about them and they look at you like you have 9 heads. Our overabundance of invisible lines never ceases to complicate matters or make them more difficult. RITA and CCA are equally awful, but neither is really a "Cleveland" program. They are organizations that serve a multitude of municipalities.

"serve." Yeah, not so much. Everyone I talked to about this was like huh, what are you talking about, you have to pay CITY tax? it did make me wish I lived elsewhere.

That Cincinnati-Dayton map is just depressing, getting pretty close to Charlotte's level. Columbus is much worse than a decade ago. There was a major sprawl explosion there, probably bigger than the one in the 1990's.

in reality its a multiple municipality tax not a city tax... and yes "serve" is quite a stretch.

If you live in Cleveland but work in another city, the city of Cleveland only credits 1% of your local income tax.  So if you pay 2% local tax to the city you work in, you then have to pay an additional 1% to Cleveland.

 

I would say only about half of the cities in RITA give you a full credit.  The city I live in only gives me a 1% credit....on a 2.5% tax rate.  So I end up paying a grand total of 3.5%.  At least in Cleveland, you have a larger base of employment opportunities than any of the suburbs.

 

As far as the rest of your arguments go, I didn't see anything all that different than the "grass is greener" talk I see on almost any cleveland.com suburban municipality forum.  I think those are mostly common complaints anywhere.

it did make me wish I lived elsewhere.

 

Until you realize they have to pay a property tax on their vehicle.  Or they have a crappy library system.  Or they have to pay for their own trash pickup, etc., etc.

What I find interesting is the somewhat lopsided growth of Cincinnati to the northeast and southwest, which of course basically follows the I-71 and I-75 corridors.  What puzzles me though is how little development there is in Dayton's southwest quadrant.  That's not unlike the lack of development on Indianapolis' southeast and southwest sides compared to the other directions.  Still, you only have to go about four miles southwest of downtown Dayton to get to corn fields, so poor highway connections don't seem like an impediment.  Is it a lack of sewers or something?   

Some of Cincinnati's growth toward Dayton can be attributed to the lack of sewers in Western Hamilton County. There are some new subdivisions and condo complexes west of the West Side with their own sewage treatment facilities, but the scale of development can never match what's going on along 71 and 75.  As a result a significant number of people looking for that type of product have moved out of the west side of the county to West Chester, Loveland, etc. 

 

There was also at one time a plan for something called the "Queen City Expressway", which would have cut due west from the Western Hills Viaduct to Cleves.  This would have made a big difference, since access to jobs north or east of downtown, UC, and the Spring Grove area is naturally difficult for the west side.  Getting out toward the Indiana border, the commute to ANY job in central Hamilton County is circuitous.  That said, there are some very high end developments on the bluffs of the Ohio River getting out toward Cleves. 

 

Even though Cincy is spreading out, it is still along a rather narrow corridor. The basically rural nature of Western Hamilton Cty contributes mightily to the fact that Cincinnati feels so urban and generally encourages denser development (even at this late date of sprawl). Franklin County has a lot of wasted space and pure sprawl because the only real limitations are a couple of flood plains.

From what I can tell, development on the west side of the city is at a standstill.  I haven't taken a drive looking for it, but I haven't seen any new subdivisions, condos, or strip malls being built since the collapse. 

Still, you only have to go about four miles southwest of downtown Dayton to get to corn fields, so poor highway connections don't seem like an impediment.  Is it a lack of sewers or something?

 

Something callded "black suburbia".  A poor school district and a big landfill dont help much either.  I think I posted on this a few years ago, the "empty quarter", but more in relation to Trotwood. 

 

Beyond that empty quarter, AKA Jefferson Township, are Germantown and Farmersville, country villages which are adding population, but at a slower clip than Trenton, at least according to the map.  But yeah, the Great Miami valley does act as a bit of  barrier to development, even further south toward Hamilton and beyond.

 

As for Cicny the I-75 corridor south is really noticeable on the map as a growth axis.  This was something you can see on the ground , too.  I've mentione before that I always look on in wonder at new housing popping up as far south as the I-71/I-75split.

 

 

There was a major sprawl explosion there, probably bigger than the one in the 1990's

 

This is all over.  Im in Louisville right now on family business, and it was the Louisville map on a local urbanist website that led my to the Ohio maps.  This place is experiencing the same phenonenon of sprawl on steroids.  So I think this is or was perhaps a national issue. 

 

Whats funny is that sprawl was sort of "on the agenda" in the 1990s, at least in planning and environmentalist ciricles but as you can see by these maps nothing was really done about the issue and sprawl became WORSE in the 2000s, even in weak market areas.

 

Just for grins, here is the Louisville population change map.  Some of the big red areas out in "suburbia" were due to removals caused by airport expansion.  Otherewise you can see the same thing happening in "Kentuckiana" that happend in "Daytonnati"

 

 

 

Don't be so surprised about sprawl in "weak markets."  In fact, you can even expect sprawl to be worse in those places.  In a region that's not growing appreciably, the sprawl machine is the only thing keeping the construction industry going.  All they can do is build cheap stuff in the cheapest fringe locations to try to lure existing residents out there with promise of "teh new shiny!"  Sprawl is still bad in growing areas no doubt, but they're not poaching the already developed core areas in the process. 

^

Hmm...so the trade-off is blue collar jobs in the construction trades + white collar jobs in real estate & land development (engineers, surveyors, brokers, finance) = some aggregate income number heping maintain a modicum of prosperity in a weak market economy;  the "sprawl industry" is sort of like eds & meds, but with land and buildings.

 

The situation is made more complex since development..or a local real estate market, would be responding to new household formation vs raw population growth or decline as well as people attempting to escape declining or changing areas...there is perhaps a push factor, too.

 

Interesting stuff.

That Cincinnati-Dayton map is just depressing, getting pretty close to Charlotte's level. Columbus is much worse than a decade ago. There was a major sprawl explosion there, probably bigger than the one in the 1990's.

 

No way was it worse than the 1990s.  The 2000s featured 2 recessions and a significant scaleback of annexation from the city.  Also, on the West Side, past Hilliard, you are going to be seeing a lot less growth simply because builders are going to be running out of room before they reach the Big Darby Creek watershed, which is highly protected.  Delaware County easily saw the most sprawl and is still one of the fastest growing counties in the state and country. 

^Also, people don't like driving in the far western parts of Franklin County because of the crazy diagonal roads that force you to take a million jogs if you want to go directly north south east or west. It's limited development in the area severely.

I would guess in you'll see continued growth in Delco especially if/when they put in the new highway exit off 71 north of Polaris. The other spot that will seriously boom is 161 corridor toward Newark. With all of the jobs headed to New Albany even in the midst of the Great Recession, I'd expect total suburban sprawl all the way to Granville by 2025. The NW side probably has another decade or so of sprawling development left in it w/ Jerome village and the like.

Hmm, Delco. I'll have to add that to my vocab.

I stole that from the Philadelphia area (the main near urban county next to Philly is also Delaware County or Delco). Not sure I've seen it used in the Cbus area.

I often call Hamilton County HamCo...but only when typing. HamCo also kinda goes along with the Porkopolis theme.

 

The other two C's may wish to avoid the formula: FrankCo sounds like a dictator, and CuyCo sounds like a slur.

I would guess in you'll see continued growth in Delco especially if/when they put in the new highway exit off 71 north of Polaris. The other spot that will seriously boom is 161 corridor toward Newark. With all of the jobs headed to New Albany even in the midst of the Great Recession, I'd expect total suburban sprawl all the way to Granville by 2025. The NW side probably has another decade or so of sprawling development left in it w/ Jerome village and the like.

Actually, Delco is a real name -- it's the name of the customer-owned, non-profit water company that allows all the rural sprawl to occur.

^

Utility districts & infrastructure...the secret history of sprawl!