These guys might be on to something

or maybe just on something

 

A mysterious candidate known as “Citizen Zombie” will file his nomination papers Monday at city hall to push for the construction of a zombie-proof wall around the city.

“We were talking about Edmonton’s growth and our ability to manage our growth in a sustainable way. The ruse was, if they put up a wall around the city, the city could no longer push out — it would have to actually push back in.”

 

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/09/20130922-145304.html

These guys might be on to something

or maybe just on something

 

A mysterious candidate known as “Citizen Zombie” will file his nomination papers Monday at city hall to push for the construction of a zombie-proof wall around the city.

“We were talking about Edmonton’s growth and our ability to manage our growth in a sustainable way. The ruse was, if they put up a wall around the city, the city could no longer push out — it would have to actually push back in.”

 

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/09/20130922-145304.html

 

If Canadian cities are like ours, which way are they trying to contain the zombies?

Undead growth boundaries.  Now I've seen everything.

"@theoverheadwire: Planning expert: Suburban sprawl is the fast food of economic development | http://t.co/jrip490cNi http://t.co/f209T7NCMx"

Anyone know the details of the plan to expand I-271 in Summit County?

Anyone know the details of the plan to expand I-271 in Summit County?

 

Here's the last I saw:

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/oh_cuyahoga/interstate-271-to-be-widened-between-miles-road-and-summit-county-line

 

The thing is, I don't think there's room for another lane on I-271S under the overpass, which is right after the express lanes dump in.  It's really poorly designed.  I'm not sure if they can continue the express lanes to dump in later.

 

One thing they could do to relieve the mess is give SR 175 (Richmond) the "Jennings treatment" south of Miles.  It jogs off to the east almost to Brainard as it goes down to one lane.  Then you have to go right on Cannon, through a really antiquated train bridge, to get back to Richmond.  If they put a four lane road directly between the bend and the continuation it would help a lot.

Anyone know the details of the plan to expand I-271 in Summit County?

 

Google search of "I-271 three lanes, Oakwood" shows:

 

http://www.ohio.com/news/odot-to-add-lanes-to-i-271-in-macedonia-oakwood-bedford-1.412916

Interesting news from Dayton:

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/dayton-leads-in-housing-construction/nbRqj/

 

(sorry it's behind the paywall)

 

Basically it says that more residential building permits were issued within Dayton City Limits than anywhere else in the valley!

 

The housing is a mix of both market rate and and affordable housing, although the affordable housing looks very well done (the largest affordable housing development is Germantown Village: http://www.cr-architects.com/our-work/germantown-village.aspx).

 

And the best part is that it appears this trend may continue. A lot of large developments are coming online in Dayton, from the 200-unit Student Suites project to the 160-unit Water St. project, plus some affordable rate developments like Twin Towers crossings.

 

Exciting stuff! Is the same happening in Ohio's other major cities?

Ditto for cleveland

A lot of you would be hating the trustees race in Sagamore Hills.  It seems like all the candidates are strongly supporting the "one house, one acre" principle (not always historically followed, by any means) and they throw the word "density" around like some here use the word "sprawl".

 

Northfield Village seems to be looking at a different approach.  You might be surprise to find I'm by no means against it.  Route 8 could use some development.

^Ironically, they probably think of themselves as pro-property rights. This issue might be one of the most salient cleaves between conservatives and lbertarians.

Many "libertarians" are just as fine with restrictive suburban zoning as they are with highway subsidies. Probably most, actually. There is some sort of cognitive disconnect when it comes to these issues.

^In fairness, the intellectual flag-bearers of the libertarian movement (Cato) love to hammer away at restrictive suburban zoning and highway subsidies. Of course, they also rail against urban growth boundaries and rail subsidies, but at least they're consistent, FWIW.

I'd argue cities would have been better off with a libertarian mindset.

 

Suburbs couldn't have happened , or at least to the extent they have, if the federal, state and local governments didn't intervene.

 

Think about it. Urban Planners have done far more bad than good. Cities were much better when they grew organically.

I'd argue cities would have been better off with a libertarian mindset.

 

Suburbs couldn't have happened , or at least to the extent they have, if the federal, state and local governments didn't intervene.

 

Think about it. Urban Planners have done far more bad than good. Cities were much better when they grew organically.

 

I'm not so sure about that.  There's a number of nongovernmental factors (listed upthread) that made suburbs, or at least low density housing on the "fringes" inevitable.  Eventually, these communities would wish to secede from the cities when interests diverged.

I'd argue cities would have been better off with a libertarian mindset.

 

Agreed, but it would also have taken a more libertarian mindset at the state and federal levels.  Remember, some cities definitely self-inflicted wounds upon themselves when it came to land use planning, both others simply didn't have the leverage to fight being gashed by superhighways straight through the heart of some of their neighborhoods ...

 

Suburbs couldn't have happened , or at least to the extent they have, if the federal, state and local governments didn't intervene.

 

... which, if I'd been reading ahead, I might have supposed that that was what you meant by this.

I'd argue cities would have been better off with a libertarian mindset.

 

Suburbs couldn't have happened , or at least to the extent they have, if the federal, state and local governments didn't intervene.

 

Think about it. Urban Planners have done far more bad than good. Cities were much better when they grew organically.

A lot of the great cities did not really grow organically. Manhattan's grid was established over 200 years ago. Chicago's orderly urban growth was plotted after the 1871 fire. The boulevards of Paris were probably the world's biggest urban renewal project. Even the City Beautiful movement, which made some non-organic beautiful cities, was preceded by some significant planning.

 

That said, you make some very good points in that the dense, mixed-use nature that was so great in so many early American cities grew not out of some master plan, but out of economic convenience.

I'd argue cities would have been better off with a libertarian mindset.

 

Suburbs couldn't have happened , or at least to the extent they have, if the federal, state and local governments didn't intervene.

 

Think about it. Urban Planners have done far more bad than good. Cities were much better when they grew organically.

A lot of the great cities did not really grow organically. Manhattan's grid was established over 200 years ago. Chicago's orderly urban growth was plotted after the 1871 fire. The boulevards of Paris were probably the world's biggest urban renewal project. Even the City Beautiful movement, which made some non-organic beautiful cities, was preceded by some significant planning.

 

That said, you make some very good points in that the dense, mixed-use nature that was so great in so many early American cities grew not out of some master plan, but out of economic convenience.

 

It doesn't seem to me that any of Cleveland's more "urbanist" neighborhoods were planned, even though most have sprung up during the past thirty years or so.  It seemed like they just came together and grew.  Little Italy being the exception, but in the sense that there's some historical continuity there.

 

This is why I say urbanism is not incompatable with libertarianism, when it grows "block by block".  The demonization of suburbs is what's incompatable with liberty.

Is the demonization of cities also incompatible with liberty? There;s a long history of demonizing cities, and it's still common practice.

This is weird. Turner Field was built (way way back) in 97.

 

Braves planning new suburban stadium in 2017

Nov. 11, 2013

 

ATLANTA — The Braves announced Monday they are leaving Turner Field and moving into a new 42,000-seat, $672 million stadium about 10 miles from downtown Atlanta in 2017. It’s not clear how much it will cost taxpayers.

 

Braves executives John Schuerholz, Mike Plant and Derek Schiller said the team decided not to seek another lease at 17-year-old Turner Field and began talks with the Cobb Marietta Coliseum and Exhibit Hall Authority in July.

 

Plant, the executive vice president of business operations, said the team has not signed a contract with Cobb County, but he’s “100 percent certain it will happen.” He said talks broke down with the Atlanta Fulton County Recreational Authority earlier this year over an extension of the team’s 20-year lease, which expires after the 2016 season.

 

The stunning news came as the NFL’s Atlanta Falcons finalize plans for a new $1.2 billion retractable roof stadium near downtown, which is also scheduled to open in 2017.

 

“We started looking at our future way back in 2005,” Plant said. “We recognized some of the challenges the current site held for us and we recognized some of the opportunities that we were going to pursue to enhance those.”

 

continued:

 

http://www.app.com/viewart/20131111/NJSPORTS0330/311110051/Braves-planning-new-suburban-stadium-2017

Also posted in the MLB thread in the sports section.

I suppose if you live in Atlanta you're used to this sort of thing. Buildings only lasting 20 years make me think they want to demolish me too if I get too old. Too bad people can't leave because there's double digit unemployment for hundreds of miles in each direction. These "new" cities with unemployment surrounding them on all sides really hold their citizens hostage.

The rural poverty down there is quite shocking. Only the cities and their suburbs offer any real hope of a decent job. Check out this map from the US Census.....

 

Also posted in the MLB thread in the sports section.

 

Oops!

The rural poverty down there is quite shocking. Only the cities and their suburbs offer any real hope of a decent job. Check out this map from the US Census.....

 

 

That map actually makes it look like the Great Lakes/Midwest pretty much the best region in the nation on this metric. 

Man WV and KY are just hit!

 

 

Man WV and KY are just hit!

 

The Mississippi River doesn't seem to be promoting development either...

You'd think Michigan would be worse considering its reputation.

I guess you'd need to make the map show population by extruding the counties in proper proportion.  There's a couple 3D examples from the 2004 presidential election here: http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/  So while the rural areas of Mississippi, West Virginia, and eastern Kentucky are certainly red, they'd be very low on the scale due to being mostly rural.  On the other hand, Wayne County (Detroit) would be a very tall spike of medium-bad unemployment, showing up much more than it does now.  At the moment much of the midwest looks pretty good, but going in a bit closer you can see that the central counties of the Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland metro areas are a level worse than their surrounding counties, while also having the highest populations. 

I guess you'd need to make the map show population by extruding the counties in proper proportion.  There's a couple 3D examples from the 2004 presidential election here: http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/  So while the rural areas of Mississippi, West Virginia, and eastern Kentucky are certainly red, they'd be very low on the scale due to being mostly rural.  On the other hand, Wayne County (Detroit) would be a very tall spike of medium-bad unemployment, showing up much more than it does now.  At the moment much of the midwest looks pretty good, but going in a bit closer you can see that the central counties of the Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland metro areas are a level worse than their surrounding counties, while also having the highest populations. 

 

One also has to wonder if the fact that many rural people can partially or completely feed themselves is taken into account.

Maybe of it was the '60s and before.

Though this is not about Cleveland's sprawl, I think it very well could have been written about us if we had more people and the confluence of bad weather and being ill-prepared to deal with it that ATL has faced. I thought this was a good read.

 

The Day We Lost Atlanta

 

How 2 lousy inches of snow paralyzed a metro area of 6 million.

 

By REBECCA BURNS

 

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/atlanta-snow-storm-102839.html#ixzz2rtKZLCz3

 

I think that's a great analysis of what happened. It was the unfortunate culmination of weather, a lack of coordination and poor long term planning. Still, absolutely amazing how badly the region was shut down.

I saw a different article that I also found very illuminating, and I should have posted it here (though maybe someone else already did on a thread that I haven't followed).  It was also about slow response times from public officials and first responders who were simply not used to dealing with snow.  I noted in that article that the city thought it had become more "prepared" for snow emergencies after a snowfall in 2011 by purchasing 40 snowplows.  My first thought was, forty for Atlanta?!  We've probably got that many for Akron.  (Though of course the point about the difference between Atlanta proper and Atlanta metro is well-taken.)  Then I read that the plows and salt/sand trucks (often the same vehicle, of course) actually weren't sent out onto the roads in advance of the snowfall because it didn't look like it was going to be that bad until it was already on them.  Here in Northeast Ohio, of course, we've got this down to such a science that our drivers are practically minutemen.

 

Add to that the fact that schools decided to let out early, which meant a sudden rush of people leaving work early and jamming the roads to get to their kids on short notice, which then prompted many businesses (who were probably already inclined to do so) to shut down early and let everyone go, and you had tons of cars swarming out onto streets that road crews had not had a chance to salt or sand yet.  The warmth and friction of cars driving over the early snowfall melted some of it; then, when traffic began to slow down, it re-froze, creating sheets of ice underneath traffic jams that prevented the plow drivers from actually moving.  A salt truck/plow that can't move is just a really heavy paperweight.

 

Bottom line: Sprawl certainly hurt this, as a train is much less likely to be seriously hampered by two inches of snow (does anyone know if the MARTA trains were in fact paralyzed?), but this was preventable even with the lay of Atlanta as it is today.

Though this is not about Cleveland's sprawl, I think it very well could have been written about us if we had more people and the confluence of bad weather and being ill-prepared to deal with it that ATL has faced. I thought this was a good read.

 

The Day We Lost Atlanta

 

How 2 lousy inches of snow paralyzed a metro area of 6 million.

 

By REBECCA BURNS

 

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/atlanta-snow-storm-102839.html#ixzz2rtKZLCz3

 

What I’m reading here is a case of “never let a crisis go to waste”, blaming an adverse situation on a condition one does not approve of.

 

I think this had more to do with overconfidence and assumptions than anything else.  The Atlanta area is full of northern expatriates, indeed their “sprawl” is more due to people move into their suburbs from outside the region than from the city itself.

 

Northerners “know how to drive in snow”  and certainly it’s not that big of a deal to them.  What they forget is the biggest problem when one is driving in these conditions is the other drivers, especially when they do unpredictable things.  Nevertheless, they make the assumption that it’s no big deal, forgetting that the infrastructure to deal with it does not exist.

 

So decision makers, public and private, did not do what areas used to snow do:  shut things down in advance when the snow is expected to overwhelm their ability to deal with it.  Cleveland can’t do that for 2” of snow.  It happens too frequently.  Atlanta can, because it happens so rarely.  The objective is to make the decision while people are still home, and therefore much less determined to head out.  Atlanta government and business leaders underestimated the impact of the weather and overestimated their ability to handle it. 

 

The good news is, this is the kind of mistake that usually happens only once. 

 

 

 

Bottom line: Sprawl certainly hurt this, as a train is much less likely to be seriously hampered by two inches of snow (does anyone know if the MARTA trains were in fact paralyzed?), but this was preventable even with the lay of Atlanta as it is today.

Yes they were. The workers were stuck in the jams too.

 

 

Bottom line: Sprawl certainly hurt this, as a train is much less likely to be seriously hampered by two inches of snow (does anyone know if the MARTA trains were in fact paralyzed?), but this was preventable even with the lay of Atlanta as it is today.

Yes they were. The workers were stuck in the jams too.

 

Certainly the RTA trains are not immune to the weather, either.

What Im reading here is a case of never let a crisis go to waste, blaming an adverse situation on a condition one does not approve of.

 

Since you do it routinely, it probably seems more plausible to you.

Let's don't argue, guys, shall we?

Let's don't argue, guys, shall we?

 

I don't argue.  I debate.  :-)

What Im reading here is a case of never let a crisis go to waste, blaming an adverse situation on a condition one does not approve of.

I think I agree with you. Certainly having the city less car dependant and having more commuters on rail or living within walking distance of work would have helped, but the problem was primarily caused by shutting down the city causing everyone to try and get onto the road at once. A few years ago Cleveland told everyone to evacuate due to snow and having everyone on the road at once shut down downtown. (I left work at 3:30 that day and didn't get home till 8.)

 

 

What I’m reading here is a case of “never let a crisis go to waste”, blaming an adverse situation on a condition one does not approve of.

I think I agree with you. Certainly having the city less car dependant and having more commuters on rail or living within walking distance of work would have helped, but the problem was primarily caused by shutting down the city causing everyone to try and get onto the road at once. A few years ago Cleveland told everyone to evacuate due to snow and having everyone on the road at once shut down downtown. (I left work at 3:30 that day and didn't get home till 8.)

 

I remember hearing about that one.  I'm sure some downtown residents found it amusing and maybe a few more people moved down after that fiasco.  But it was treated as a failure of planning. Especially since a lot of other choke points didn't pile up as badly.

 

This was a once in a decade (+) event and isn't really a good reason to completely re-do a region's approach to development.

It's not a once in a decade event. If the temps get to around 32 degrees and there is precipitation. There is always a chance of snow.  Florida freezes at some point every year.

What Im reading here is a case of never let a crisis go to waste, blaming an adverse situation on a condition one does not approve of.

I think I agree with you. Certainly having the city less car dependant and having more commuters on rail or living within walking distance of work would have helped, but the problem was primarily caused by shutting down the city causing everyone to try and get onto the road at once. A few years ago Cleveland told everyone to evacuate due to snow and having everyone on the road at once shut down downtown. (I left work at 3:30 that day and didn't get home till 8.)

 

 

 

This was a pure lake effect event too.  So downtown and the snowbelt areas got hit particularly hard, while the west side barely got 1-2 inches of snow.  During all this the rapid was running, and I was able to get home at a the standard time.  So I felt justified, although I have had reverse situations occur as well.

 

Is there really a good way to empty out a regions major employment center? 

No, it's a lot better if it doesn't have to empty out in the first place.

It's a good question, how to empty out a region quickly, and I'm glad I don't have to figure it out. I do think it's related to the "suburban sprawl" topic because so many people are trying to get out in ways that involve cars for the large, large majority. It leads you to wonder what lessons have been learned about the problems of mass evacuations. I seem to recall a big mess down south during Hurricane Rita if I'm remembering right, and surely some kind of emergency plans exist as to how to do this more quickly and efficiently in the case of any type of disaster. I think one of the big, big problems is the lack of police presence at as many intersections as possible, because people who are trying to get out very quickly almost always seem to end up breaking the traffic laws about entering into the intersection before it's clear, which very quickly results in gridlock because nobody can move going the other way either. Instant backups, all directions, and then spreads quickly to other intersections. One would think emergency evacuation of a city where a lot of people are trying to get to the suburbs all at once would necessitate as much police presence in intersections as possible and coordinated reminders of not blocking the intersections via radio and social media.

It's a good question, how to empty out a region quickly, and I'm glad I don't have to figure it out. I do think it's related to the "suburban sprawl" topic because so many people are trying to get out in ways that involve cars for the large, large majority. It leads you to wonder what lessons have been learned about the problems of mass evacuations. I seem to recall a big mess down south during Hurricane Rita if I'm remembering right, and surely some kind of emergency plans exist as to how to do this more quickly and efficiently in the case of any type of disaster. I think one of the big, big problems is the lack of police presence at as many intersections as possible, because people who are trying to get out very quickly almost always seem to end up breaking the traffic laws about entering into the intersection before it's clear, which very quickly results in gridlock because nobody can move going the other way either. Instant backups, all directions, and then spreads quickly to other intersections. One would think emergency evacuation of a city where a lot of people are trying to get to the suburbs all at once would necessitate as much police presence in intersections as possible and coordinated reminders of not blocking the intersections via radio and social media.

 

I'm not sure that situations where people would need to evacuate an entire urban area are in any way equivalent to those where people havve (want, really) to get home to the suburbs.

 

Had that snowstorm hit overnight, or the area powers that be been proactive, this situation would never have happened.

^ But it didn't. It hit in the middle of the afternoon on a workday. And it was enough of an emergency that the region as a whole to elected to close schools early, and for employers to send their employees home. All at the same time. So to the extent the entire region reacted like it was an emergency, then it was.  RNR's point that Atlanta needs to brush up on its emergency evac protocols is a legitimate point. The region's leaders can't just look at what happened and shrug. People shouldn't be stuck on the roads for 10 hours and kids shouldn't be sleeping on gym floors because of 2 inches of snow.

Canadians are having a field day with this.

To bring the discussion local, I think it should be brushed up on here as well. I remember the trouble everyone had getting out of downtown when 9/11 happened, for example, and there have been annual examples of bad, hours-long gridlock (though nothing like what ATL experienced) because of snowstorms here, and there will be other emergencies. It's related to sprawl, at least in my mind, and part of the problems that sprawl causes.