Dayton = one of the few places that get it

 

Is Dayton adding new overhead wires anywhere? I know Seattle is currently working to electrify a few routes, replacing diesel buses with trolleybuses.

5 hours ago, taestell said:

Is Dayton adding new overhead wires anywhere? I know Seattle is currently working to electrify a few routes, replacing diesel buses with trolleybuses.

Fair point. At least they aren’t tearing them out like MBTA in Cambridge. 

10 hours ago, taestell said:

Is Dayton adding new overhead wires anywhere? I know Seattle is currently working to electrify a few routes, replacing diesel buses with trolleybuses.

They are taking the wires that used to be used for turning loops and using them to extend the lines an extra couple thousand feet. The new buses they have can do 15 miles off wire at 50 mph and recharge while on wire. The RTA is using that to extend some routes a couple miles at each end, the 1 route does about 12 miles off wire every round trip. It's mostly a case of not having the money to be able to fully electrify new routes. Just the engineering costs of figuring out where to put everything over a 20 mile round trip route are going to be pretty massive for an agency the size of the Dayton RTA.

1 hour ago, Henryefry said:

They are taking the wires that used to be used for turning loops and using them to extend the lines an extra couple thousand feet. The new buses they have can do 15 miles off wire at 50 mph and recharge while on wire. The RTA is using that to extend some routes a couple miles at each end, the 1 route does about 12 miles off wire every round trip. It's mostly a case of not having the money to be able to fully electrify new routes. Just the engineering costs of figuring out where to put everything over a 20 mile round trip route are going to be pretty massive for an agency the size of the Dayton RTA.

Philadelphia has buses with off-wire capability, but they "abuse" it.  The power units are not designed for regular lengthy off-wire operation.  This has caused problems with SEPTA's operation.  The off-wire operation is designed for short detours or when short sections of wire are down.  Yes, it can be done, but it shouldn't be part of the regular daily operation.  If this is Dayton's plan for operation, they need to be careful or they will start to suffer the same problems that plague SEPTA.

Gas prices causing an increase in transit usage in some areas. 2 examples: Santa Fe 

 

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/high-gas-prices-force-santa-feans-to-limit-trips-add-riders-to-the-rail-runner/article_582823e8-eb58-11ec-8807-3b1f44feef08.html

 

Sacramento:

 

https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2022/06/14/sacramento-gas-prices-soar-public-transit/

Same with Cleveland, but ridership is still waaaayy down. GCRTA says downtown commuting is it's bread and butter. Time to get a new schtick -- like planning and financing TOD and redesigning your system around multiple TOD nodes, not just downtown.

 

http://www.riderta.com/sites/default/files/events/2022-05RidershipReport.pdf

 

 

 

There was an interesting article in the FT this morning on the future of transit.  The prediction was that center city commuting has been permanently reduced by COVID and will never return to the huge radial pattern of in-in-the-morning-out-in-the-afternoon passengers. It will still be the most important traffic flow in most places, but point-to-point travel throughout the day will be more in demand and present approaches won't fit the future need.

 

Unfortunately, the article had no answers, only questions.

47 minutes ago, Dougal said:

There was an interesting article in the FT this morning on the future of transit.  The prediction was that center city commuting has been permanently reduced by COVID and will never return to the huge radial pattern of in-in-the-morning-out-in-the-afternoon passengers. It will still be the most important traffic flow in most places, but point-to-point travel throughout the day will be more in demand and present approaches won't fit the future need.

 

Unfortunately, the article had no answers, only questions.

It seems increasingly clear that urban planning and transit planning need to work together more.  Cities will likely have multiple "business nodes" that will need to be connected rather than just one huge one downtown (although a downtown core will probably remain the biggest transit destination for many years), and we will need housing and business development along the transit lines or the transit system won't be sustainable (which is the current condition in most cities). 

 

We have too many cities with areas of concentrated poverty and no access to jobs and dispersed businesses who can't find workers because there's no reliable transit to get there; and the transit doesn't go there because there isn't the critical mass of riders going that way to justify more frequent transit.  It's dumb planning. And it's going to take years to fix past mistakes.

16 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Cities will likely have multiple "business nodes" that will need to be connected rather than just one huge one downtown (although a downtown core will probably remain the biggest transit destination for many years)

Spot-on.  There will be less commuters and office workers, but more residents and "play" destinations.  The issue is, these places will be marketed towards $200k+ households in nearby suburbia as a destination.  Those households don't "take the bus."  And only in cities where transit is ever-present (basically the East Coast and Chicago), will those people take non-bus transit in any large numbers.

^Columbus is already like this. Jobs got moved out of Downtown to Dublin-Worthington-Westerville-Polaris-Easton (all up north) leaving the rest of town far away from good-paying jobs and retail. If you don't live in the Cool Crescent all you get is supermarkets and big-box stores full of basic essentials. If the household income of the area isn't above $100k you have to go to Kroger for everything. If the household income is below $50k you don't even get that. About half of the square mileage of the built-up areas is like this. No malls, few specialty shops, services all located in the supermarket like pharmacies, coffee shops, liquor stores, banks and nail salons rather than in easy-access standalone locations.

 

If you don't want to have to go to Kroger for everything it is an immediate bump of at least $100K in home value.

 

It was a post-2008 decision for retailers and restaurants to not expand into areas with incomes below $80-100K.

Edited June 27, 20222 yr by GCrites80s

In Cincinnati, we have lots of residential development happening in Downtown/OTR, which is also the largest employment center in the region, and tons of jobs being added to the area around CVG. A smart strategy would be to connect these two nodes with a light rail line.

Ironically, while downtown Cleveland has seen its commuting to 9 to 5 office jobs drop dramatically, it seems just from appearances that commuting to the University Circle area's hospital, research and institutional jobs and classes remains quite strong. In fact, the new Opportunity Corridor Boulevard saw traffic jams in its first week. So some commuting remains strong even if downtown is not.  Since the rail system is static, each one of these rail stations can and should be redesigned as the nuclei around which new 15-minute cities should be built to help address climate change.

 

^There are several articles out about the transit cost research project now. The full report is absolutely worth a read. This team pursued a detailed research project digging into the cost factors of American transit project and compared to best practices in the global leaders of low cost transit development. Also, these experts are some of the best follows on Twitter for learning about global best practices with regards to transit, particularly ChittiMarco. The challenges in addressing the cost problem are, of course, not simple; however, the detail of this report in clearly articulating those challenges gives us the opportunity to work on fixing them. Even minor improvements would result in more transit getting built; major improvements could start to address the political headwinds of these projects.

 

https://transitcosts.com/

 

 

On 3/2/2023 at 5:13 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

particularly ChittiMarco

Ditto. He does a great job showing best practices from Europe, while still showing worst practices from Europe, namely Italy. Lots of good nuance in there.

Interesting (long) article with researched recommendations for ways to improve bus service.  As much as I and others may prefer light rail, we're likely stuck with buses as the primary way to get around in most US cities.  These ideas seem like chicken feed compared to building rail, we just need buy-in from our cities and transit agencies to implement them.

 

https://marcochitti.substack.com/p/getting-bus-priority-right-lessons/comments

Fantastic thread and article:

“And to replace cars, transit agencies must offer fast, frequent, and reliable trips. This should be the core mission of any functional public transportation system, but increasingly, transit leaders are being pushed to focus on distracting priorities like electrifying buses, eliminating fares, and fighting crime. The biggest US transit agencies must be allowed to simply focus on delivering high-quality service. There is no Plan B.”

 

”There is no evidence that fare-free transit can meet the key goal of reducing driving, because those with car access typically care more about trip times and reliability than the cost of a transit trip.”

“Taylor, the UCLA professor, agreed. “When framed as a social service, transit hasn’t done well securing funding,” he said. “But when it’s framed as an environmental benefit or as getting people off the road, that can work.””

 

Another good article from David Zipper here, this one debunking the “transit is a public good so it should be free” argument. 
 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-30/no-transit-is-not-a-public-good-here-s-why?utm_source=website&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=twitter

For conversation and debate 

I've been on half of those systems and that list is all off.  There is no way I'd rank San Francisco over Barcelona, Madrid, or even Montreal.

8 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

I've been on half of those systems and that list is all off.  There is no way I'd rank San Francisco over Barcelona, Madrid, or even Montreal.

 

Also, I'm surprised that Copenhagen is not on the list.

Or half of Asia.  No Osaka?  Taipei?  Almost all of China?  Sao Paulo?  MEXICO CITY?  Especially since they include relatively weak transit cities like Dublin, Rio, and Dubai in comparison.  I adore the S-Bahn in Zurich (been many times) but it's not above Japan, China, or SE Asia.  Mexico City annihilates every city on this continent if we're talking about rail and BRT except NYC and yet it's below...*checks notes* Los Angeles? And the lack of African cities (Cairo, Cape Town, Joburg) is glaring.

 

*Lord, this list is making my blood boil by the minute!*

Perfectly succinct. Thank about how dead-on this description fits the RTA Red Line.

 

^Somewhat ironically, given LA's broad sprawl, the existing red line subway and u/c purple line beneath Wilshire Blvd fulfill those three points. 

 

Its light rail lines do not, since they typically operate at moderate speed on available freight railroad rights-of-ways.  The Green Line has very fast light rail trains but they operate in the center of the Century Freeway, meaning the station locations are hostile to pedestrians.  

For those clamoring for battery-buses: they just aren’t there yet. The reliability isn’t good and the range sucks. Forcing systems to migrate to them degrades service, which undermines the most important factor, specially, getting people to switch from cars to the bus. 

 

On 4/15/2023 at 11:35 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

For those clamoring for battery-buses: they just aren’t there yet. The reliability isn’t good and the range sucks. Forcing systems to migrate to them degrades service, which undermines the most important factor, specially, getting people to switch from cars to the bus. 

I saw this thread too. There were a lot of comments asking for trolley busses. They of course cost a lot of money to install, and is much more politically difficult to install especially when a transit authority doesn't own the RoW. Made in America standards also make them more expensive as there is not enough demand for local production of them.

 

It sounds like VTA may have put themselves in a corner here.

The scrapping of electric trolleybus systems was a disaster.  It was done in part because the for-profit bus companies could issue a special dividend for the scrap proceeds.  

On 4/15/2023 at 11:35 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

For those clamoring for battery-buses: they just aren’t there yet. The reliability isn’t good and the range sucks. Forcing systems to migrate to them degrades service, which undermines the most important factor, specially, getting people to switch from cars to the bus. 

 

I don't get the generalization that electric buses aren't there yet.  There are plenty of transit authorities integrating electric buses properly, including LakeTran here in Northeast Ohio.  PDF of recent LakeTran presentation to NOACA

 

Antelope Valley Transit Authority, just outside of LA, has an entirely electric bus system.  Wireless or wired fast-charging at transit centers can boost range throughout the day and will only continue to improve.

 

I understand the need to get people to switch from cars to buses, but there's also no future in which diesel buses can continue operating.  Electric buses aren't going to be "there yet" unless transit agencies start using them.  They just can't do so halfheartedly.  They have to add dedicated charging infrastructure and understand the daily charging needs for each bus route.

On 4/15/2023 at 11:35 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

For those clamoring for battery-buses: they just aren’t there yet. The reliability isn’t good and the range sucks. Forcing systems to migrate to them degrades service, which undermines the most important factor, specially, getting people to switch from cars to the bus.

 

It seems like there is still a place for electric buses even with current shortcomings.  School buses, for example, which run for a limited time and are idle much of the time, seem to be doing quite well and have been for some time. 

https://stnonline.com/news/calif-district-adds-to-largest-fleet-of-electric-school-buses/

 

They're only going to get better over time and better school buses could lead to better electric transit buses.  For now, maybe electric transit buses make sense for similar situations -- a short run with lots of idle time to recharge -- special events perhaps.

So are Canadians 

 

 

I really enjoyed this video from RM Transit. He compares the transportation systems of Hong Kong and Houston. The main point is that even for drivers Hong Kong is better, because of the quality of the transportation system. For example, driving from downtown Hong Kong to the airport is often faster than in Houston even with the airports being similar distances, and a big part of that is that most other people are taking the train or bus. Excellent comparison video.

 

 

Anatomy of an ‘American Transit Disaster’
In his new book, historian Nicholas Dagen Bloom chronicles the collapse of public transportation in US cities — and explains who really deserves the blame. 

By David Zipper
April 27, 2023 at 8:00 AM EDT

American transit agencies are standing on the brink of a devastating fiscal cliff. Covid-era emergency dollars are dwindling, and revenues remain well below pre-pandemic levels. Without new funding, transit leaders could be forced to close budget gaps by cutting service or raising fares – and likely both.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-27/chronicling-of-the-collapse-of-public-transit-in-the-us

Here's the announcement of the federal program that is funding the RTA and other agency rail car replacements.

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-more-700-million-grants-replace-aging-passenger

 

Biden-Harris Administration Announces More Than $700 Million in Grants to Replace Aging Passenger Railcars in Six Transit Systems

Friday, May 5, 2023

Grants largely invest in medium-sized transit agencies that often lack the resources needed to make long-overdue improvements

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation's Federal Transit Administration (FTA) today announced the selection of six projects in six states to replace aging passenger railcars, improving reliability, safety, and accessibility on the nation's rail transit systems. Funded by the President's Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the approximately $703 million in project selections represents first-time funding from the new Rail Vehicle Replacement Program, which was created to improve safety, service, and the customer experience on subways, commuter rail, and light rail systems. 

"Every day, millions of Americans rely on subways, commuter rail, and light rail to get to work or school, buy groceries, and see loved ones, but many railcars still in service are decades old and in need of replacement," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. "These grants will help bring riders faster, safer, more reliable service on America’s rails."

Older railcars contribute to service delays and increased costs and lack newer amenities, such as digital signage and audio tools that improve the riding experience. They may also lack accessibility features – such as direct access into the railcar – for people with disabilities or anyone pushing a stroller. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law will invest a total of $1.5 billion in new funding through 2026 for FTA's Rail Vehicle Replacement Program.

"One-third of our nation’s subway and commuter rail vehicles are more than 25 years old," said FTA Administrator Nuria Fernandez. "This program focuses on transit agencies that lack the funding they need to address overdue railcar replacements. We are proud to select these projects to improve passenger rail service for riders across the nation."

The selected Rail Vehicle Replacement projects are:  

The Sacramento Regional Transit District in Sacramento, California, will receive $45.1 million to buy 16 light rail vehicles, which will replace older vehicles that have exceeded their useful life. This investment will improve the agency’s state of good repair needs and improve service and reliability for the region’s 1.7 million residents.
 

The South Florida Regional Transportation Authority, which operates the Tri-Rail commuter rail service in Miami and along the 72-mile South Florida Rail Corridor, will receive $71.7 million to replace 24 rail vehicles (32% of its fleet). The funding will support new locomotives and passenger cars to replace older vehicles that have exceeded or are near the end of their useful life. This project will ensure safe, reliable, and efficient transportation for Tri-Rail’s 12,500 daily riders.
 

The Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) will receive $200 million to buy up to 300 new electric propulsion passenger railcars to replace railcars that have been operating since the 1980s. This project will improve CTA’s state of good repair needs in a fleet where the average age of its railcars is nearly 40 years.
 

The Bi-State Development Agency of the Missouri-Illinois Metropolitan District, the operator of the Metro public transportation system serving the St. Louis metropolitan region, will receive $196.3 million to replace 48 light rail vehicles that have exceeded or are near the end of their useful life. The project will improve service and reliability as it addresses state of good repair needs.
 

The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA) will receive $130 million to buy 60 new light rail and heavy rail vehicles to replace older vehicles that can operate on both systems, eliminating the need for GCRTA to run two separate fleets. This project will improve system reliability and safety and enhance the agency’s operational flexibility.
 

The Utah Transit Authority will receive $60 million to buy 20 light rail vehicles to replace older railcars. The project will improve service, reliability, and safety and significantly improve accessibility for riders by allowing direct access and reducing the use of boarding devices.

Projects were selected for funding based on criteria described in the Notice of Funding Opportunity. In response to the Notice of Funding of Opportunity, FTA received more than $3.5 billion dollars in funding requests.

Kansas City's streetcar set new record ridership days during the NFL draft.  It also continues to have much stronger ridership than any of the other new streetcar systems. 

 

 

Great messaging!

12 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Great messaging!

You could pair that with a picture of actual traffic with "ghost" car graphics inserted to show how much worse traffic would be without the current transit riders -- "If even more drivers chose transit, driving would be less stressful."

One of the all-time greats

 

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

One of the all-time greats

 

 

I'm not surprised.  The underground stations in central London are really close to one another.  I find that I can usually walk anywhere in central London in about half an hour -- or take the underground and "save" five minutes.

On 3/2/2023 at 5:13 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

^There are several articles out about the transit cost research project now. The full report is absolutely worth a read. This team pursued a detailed research project digging into the cost factors of American transit project and compared to best practices in the global leaders of low cost transit development. Also, these experts are some of the best follows on Twitter for learning about global best practices with regards to transit, particularly ChittiMarco. The challenges in addressing the cost problem are, of course, not simple; however, the detail of this report in clearly articulating those challenges gives us the opportunity to work on fixing them. Even minor improvements would result in more transit getting built; major improvements could start to address the political headwinds of these projects.

 

https://transitcosts.com/

 

 

The Transit Costs Project was an extremely important effort and I encourage everyone who supports investing in transit to review their findings. Here’s a webinar with project lead Prof Eric Goldwyn hosted by the High Speed Rail Alliance

 

 

 

Worth reading 

 

The US sure does make it harder to climb the ladder of success

 

The transit system in Brampton, a suburb of Toronto with 600,000 people, is so frequent and comprehensive that its ridership last year was larger than all of Dallas's and was equal to Miami's. Even suburbs with less than ideal land use can utilize good transit.

^while the use of public transportation in the Toronto area generally is far greater than in just about any American city, and that Brampton's growth has been extraordinary over the past few decades to say the least, perhaps part of the reason the transit system is so widely used there may be due to the fact that the city is so heavily South Asian (and you can see from this chart how incredibly diverse the city is overall). I'm guessing that many of the immigrants from these countries are just accustomed to using public transit and enthusiastically embrace it

There may be an element of the immigrants used to buses thing but I think it's more that Canada prioritizes and doesn't stigmatize public transit like the US does.  If it were generally the immigrant-thing, then Miami and Houston would be beating almost every Canadian city in public transit.  Or North-Central New Jersey (with its large South Asian population) on par with Brampton but it's not.  America still has a while to go to fully embrace public transit like Canada does.

1 hour ago, eastvillagedon said:

^while the use of public transportation in the Toronto area generally is far greater than in just about any American city, and that Brampton's growth has been extraordinary over the past few decades to say the least, perhaps part of the reason the transit system is so widely used there may be due to the fact that the city is so heavily South Asian (and you can see from this chart how incredibly diverse the city is overall). I'm guessing that many of the immigrants from these countries are just accustomed to using public transit and enthusiastically embrace it

 

Many of the South Asian countries are quite conservative politically so the whole idea of being anti-transit because you are conservative is a product of English-speaking countries but especially the U.S. U.S. conservatives who are against transit are told to be against it or they aren't conservative. Many would otherwise have no opinion on the matter at all.

21 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

There may be an element of the immigrants used to buses thing but I think it's more that Canada prioritizes and doesn't stigmatize public transit like the US does.  If it were generally the immigrant-thing, then Miami and Houston would be beating almost every Canadian city in public transit.  Or North-Central New Jersey (with its large South Asian population) on par with Brampton but it's not.  America still has a while to go to fully embrace public transit like Canada does.

 

you're right, but I was just speculating as to why transit is so popular in Brampton. I knew there's a huge Indian and Pakistani population there, having visited that area over the years, and thought maybe there were reasons these groups use public transit more.  But according to this article ridership in Brampton exceeds even that in other Canadian cities, and the reasons seem to be simply by making major improvements in service, primarily in buses

 

https://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/how-brampton-s-transit-system-grew-to-serve-more-riders-than-many-major-north-american/article_63e97c19-5bca-5ba2-a995-cea6eac2d7da.html

Oh, I'm with ya and it definitely makes logical sense that folks from South Asia are a little more transit-friendly.

Ridership on fixed route Ohio transit systems compared to pre-pandemic levels.

 

 

All data FTA NTA 12/23 raw monthly ridership release-https://t.co/yzMfglekTj

Go Trolleybuses!!!