Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

Time to shift economic activity from the overcrowded coasts to places that need more of it.

Updated by Matthew Yglesias@[email protected]  Dec 9, 2016, 8:30am EST

 

MORE:

http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12/9/13881712/move-government-to-midwest

 

Rep. Tim Ryan suggests relocating federal agencies outside Washington, D.C.

By Sabrina Eaton, cleveland.com

on April 20, 2017 at 6:39 PM, updated April 20, 2017 at 8:41 PM

 

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

 

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

 

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."

 

While the congressman said the nation should be proud of Washington, D.C. and its historic role, he said "the Founding Fathers could not have imagined our current federal government system, with more than 300,000 federal workers in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area in 190 federally-owned buildings and 500 leased buildings."

 

MORE:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/04/rep_tim_ryan_suggests_relocati.html#incart_most-commented_metro_article

Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

Time to shift economic activity from the overcrowded coasts to places that need more of it.

Updated by Matthew Yglesias@[email protected]  Dec 9, 2016, 8:30am EST

 

MORE:

http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12/9/13881712/move-government-to-midwest

 

Rep. Tim Ryan suggests relocating federal agencies outside Washington, D.C.

By Sabrina Eaton, cleveland.com

on April 20, 2017 at 6:39 PM, updated April 20, 2017 at 8:41 PM

 

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

 

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

 

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."

 

While the congressman said the nation should be proud of Washington, D.C. and its historic role, he said "the Founding Fathers could not have imagined our current federal government system, with more than 300,000 federal workers in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area in 190 federally-owned buildings and 500 leased buildings."

 

MORE:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/04/rep_tim_ryan_suggests_relocati.html#incart_most-commented_metro_article

 

Tim Ryan is such a good congressman, the Democrats lost a good opportunity to move more to the center after this last election, When they stuck with Nancy Pelosi instead of going with Tim.

Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

Time to shift economic activity from the overcrowded coasts to places that need more of it.

 

I'd love to see the NIH in Cleveland.  Especially since it's not even in DC proper.  It would match well with the city's large healthcare presence.

Tim Ryan is such a good congressman, the Democrats lost a good opportunity to move more to the center after this last election, When they stuck with Nancy Pelosi instead of going with Tim.

 

Do you mean geographic center?  I think Ryan is great but would not call him a centrist.  He was trying to pull the party leftward against Pelosi's coastal centrist orthodoxy, economically speaking.  His point in running for leader was to refocus the party on economic populism, which goes hand in hand with granting more influence to the rust belt.

 

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

 

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

 

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."

 

 

This is not a new idea. In the Nixon years the Feds came up with the GOWN (Get Out of Washington Now) Program. For various reasons it went nowhere.

 

A better approach for Cleveland would be for area congressmen (and local civic sponsors) to pick something small and new to go after. An example might be the NIH's radiographic data repository. It's not wildly glamorous; it's physical location isn't especially important; and it's a small program. It will, however, be "huge and beautiful", as somebody in DC might say, in the future. Local sponsors would need to offer incentives, but they wouldn't need to be too great. Plus the city with Picker, Hitachi, ViewRay, etc., has "radiology credentials" as good as anybody's.  This approach is how Baltimore ended up with 20,000+ Social Security jobs.   

Don't forget most of the Federal jobs in West Virginia are because of Senator Byrd.

  I see this as a worthwhile direction to explore. Anything NIH related would be a boon to Cleveland.

 

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

 

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

 

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."

 

 

This is not a new idea. In the Nixon years the Feds came up with the GOWN (Get Out of Washington Now) Program. For various reasons it went nowhere.

 

A better approach for Cleveland would be for area congressmen (and local civic sponsors) to pick something small and new to go after. An example might be the NIH's radiographic data repository. It's not wildly glamorous; it's physical location isn't especially important; and it's a small program. It will, however, be "huge and beautiful", as somebody in DC might say, in the future. Local sponsors would need to offer incentives, but they wouldn't need to be too great. Plus the city with Picker, Hitachi, ViewRay, etc., has "radiology credentials" as good as anybody's.  This approach is how Baltimore ended up with 20,000+ Social Security jobs.   

 

Something environmental-related would also be nice. A research facility that can partner up with local universities. We have a fairly important body of water to our immediate north, with lots of room for development. 

Is It Time to Move Federal Agencies Out of Washington?

Ian Smith April 21, 2017

 

Another Congressman wants to explore the possibility of moving federal agencies outside of Washington, DC.

 

Congressman Tim Ryan (D-OH) has introduced the Federal Government Decentralization Commission Act (H.R. 2112), legislation that would establish a commission under the General Services Administration (GSA), headed by the Administrator of the GSA and 10 other members, that would study the relocation of select executive agencies or divisions of agencies outside the Washington metropolitan area.

 

...“Our country should be proud of our capital city, and the role it plays in our history and the running of the federal government. But the Founding Fathers could not have imagined our current federal government system, with more than 300,000 federal workers in the Washington DC metropolitan area in 190 federally-owned buildings and 500 leased buildings,” said Ryan.

 

He added: "Our government belongs to all Americans, and communities across the United States should be able to benefit from the economic boost these employment centers could bring, especially to economically distressed places. The technology available to us today allows for seamless communication and collaboration regardless of geographic location, and is already allowing a web of federal offices and agencies across the US, such as the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta to perform their work without being inside the DC beltway. This is a common sense way to help cities like Cleveland or Detroit share in the economic development that comes from playing host to part of the federal government."

 

Ryan is not the first Congressman to suggest moving agencies outside of Washington. Congressman Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) introduced a resolution earlier this year expressing Congressional support for getting agencies out of DC.

 

- See more at: https://www.fedsmith.com/2017/04/21/time-move-federal-agencies-washington/#sthash.NIUm9deE.dpuf

Here's a Rust Belt revival idea -- cities and their surrounding regions on the south sides of lakes Erie and Ontario leave the USA for Canada. After all, the major cities on the Canadians side of Ontario/Erie are growing. They understand how to grow aging industrial cities. The USA doesn't.....

 

It's Time for Buffalo to Secede, and Join Canada

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-27/it-s-time-for-buffalo-to-secede-and-join-canada

 

Here's a Rust Belt revival idea -- cities and their surrounding regions on the south sides of lakes Erie and Ontario leave the USA for Canada. After all, the major cities on the Canadians side of Ontario/Erie are growing. They understand how to grow aging industrial cities. The USA doesn't.....

 

It's Time for Buffalo to Secede, and Join Canada

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-27/it-s-time-for-buffalo-to-secede-and-join-canada

 

 

???????

 

We had this conversation on another thread, there is virtually nothing on the Canadian Lake Erie shore between Leamington and Niagara Falls.  Everything is well inland.

again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

 

But Cleveland and Buffalo have similar paths that cities like Burlington, Hamilton and Oshawa have been on.  I think it's a macro problem.  Canada is still closer to its European roots, and is prospering as a socialist-lite democracy.  Here in the USA, Wall Street decides who lives and dies, and will sell out the backbone of a city to move to another area for cheaper wages and the resulting 5% stock increase.

again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

 

But that wouldn't explain Windsor and London, both clearly away from Toronto's sphere.  London would be akin to Erie (with an actual skyline); Windsor would be Canada's version of Detroit (auto industry, border, blue-collar, Arab).

again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

 

I completely disagree. It absolutely is a viable comparison. Saying that these Canadian cities are somehow different than their south of the Lake(s) and border American counterparts because they are part of some special region -- whatever -- is a convenient way to make excuses for the deleterious political and social behavior in America that views blue collar cities, and the people that inhabit them, as 'throw away'  leading to cutesy, disgusting monikers like ( 'Rust Belt.'  Much of this attitude is rooted in good old American classism and racism....

 

Canada is far from perfect and isn't totally free of these maladies either, but they are much weaker there and more robust and pervasive here to the point that they are sowed deep into the American fabric. And as heartening as it is to see the partial comebacks of old industrial cities like Cleveland, Buffalo and Detroit, the fact is these comebacks' foundation are rooted in gentrification: that is they can only comeback if they are built exclusively for the professional classes; mainly whites but also Asians and a few black and Hispanic professionals. Canadian cities have not been afflicted by this mindset and thus don't have to comeback the way so many American cities do.

 

Continuing to ignore this fact; to keep lying to ourselves and excuse-make for America indicates we will never honestly address the problem and the negative effects will perpetuate indefinitely.

Canada doesn't have a "Sunbelt", nor does it have the legacy of slavery and segregation that we have in the states. Those two things alone weaken the comparison between Canadian and US cities.

 

Also, Windsor is like a tenth of the size of metro Detroit. Yeah, it might be growing faster and stronger than Detroit, but there's not even a comparison to be had between a metro of 4 million and a metro of 400,000.

^^Good point re: slavery.  Racial issues continue to weaken this country and make us all poorer.

Canada doesn't have a "Sunbelt", nor do they have the legacy of slavery and segregation that we have in the states. Those two things alone weaken the comparison between Canadian and US cities. Also, Windsor is like a tenth of the size of metro Detroit. Yeah, it might be growing faster and stronger than Detroit, but it's not even a comparison between a metro of 4 million and a metro of 400,000.

 

Canada's oppressed people in the north, the First Nations people, but they were far more spatially segregated than the close segregation of the South, then North with Whites and Blacks. Canadian cities also didnt have large numbers of their oppressed folks moving into Great Lakes cities in the 1950s and 1960s, and avoided their White folks fleeing those same cities. More and more I am convinced that Great Lakes cities collapsed because of desegregation, which fueled deindustrialization of central cities. Cities like Toledo and Buffalo were 95%+ white until the early 1950s.

More and more I am convinced that Great Lakes cities collapsed because of desegregation, which fueled deindustrialization of central cities.

 

There is no question that school bussing triggered the white flight that destroyed Cleveland. I'm totally in favor of integration, but not the way it was done. 

It should also be noted there is very little violent crime in Canadian cities. Hamilton, which has more people in its city proper than Cleveland, had 15 murders last year which was more than double the previous 10-year average of 7 murders per year (BTW drug overdoses are considered murder by the RCMP). So they convened a task force to investigate the situation.

 

Cleveland had 136 murders last year (not including the 200+ drug overdose deaths).

yeah canada actually has national gun laws. and they are pretty straightforward and canadian-sensible. a long waiting period, mandatory training and most importantly of all a background check.

 

that would bring usa gun deaths down to nearly canadian levels if it were implemented down here. and it would still allow our people to have "muh guns." 

 

too bad it will never happen here.

again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

 

I completely disagree. It absolutely is a viable comparison. Saying that these Canadian cities are somehow different than their south of the Lake(s) and border American counterparts because they are part of some special region -- whatever -- is a convenient way to make excuses for the deleterious political and social behavior in America that views blue collar cities, and the people that inhabit them, as 'throw away'  leading to cutesy, disgusting monikers like ( 'Rust Belt.'  Much of this attitude is rooted in good old American classism and racism....

 

Canada is far from perfect and isn't totally free of these maladies either, but they are much weaker there and more robust and pervasive here to the point that they are sowed deep into the American fabric. And as heartening as it is to see the partial comebacks of old industrial cities like Cleveland, Buffalo and Detroit, the fact is these comebacks' foundation are rooted in gentrification: that is they can only comeback if they are built exclusively for the professional classes; mainly whites but also Asians and a few black and Hispanic professionals. Canadian cities have not been afflicted by this mindset and thus don't have to comeback the way so many American cities do.

 

Continuing to ignore this fact; to keep lying to ourselves and excuse-make for America indicates we will never honestly address the problem and the negative effects will perpetuate indefinitely.

it's amazing that regardless of how many times I've made the same point about Toronto in previous exchanges nobody seems to "get it." Yes, there are factors (like pervasive and deeply entrenched racism) that are unique to American cities like Cleveland and Buffalo that led to their downfall. But Toronto is the economic and cultural hub of Canada, and therefore yes, very different from American cities in the Great Lakes region. It's like a magnet that attracts people from around Canada and the world, and extends to the surrounding regional cities in Ontario. Cleveland and Buffalo are never, ever, going to be like that!

^Agree...no comparison.

Toronto becoming the economic and cultural hub of a Canada is only a recent occurrence. Montreal was the economic hub and Quebec City the cultural hub. And just as the USA was the economic giant of the Americas for 250 years, its corruption, citizen violence, militarism, social inequalities, religious fanaticism, insulated, hyperbolic nationalism and political dysfunction will allow the clean, largely crime-free, social democracy of Canada to overtake the USA, whom Canadians refer to as their "nosy neighbor to the south." I'd love for Northeast Ohio to join Canada before the anti-urban policies of Ohio and the USA finish destroying it.

^Agree...no comparison.

Not to Republicans.

Nice article. Glad to hear UA, Kent and Case are pooling their resources.

 

Can the Rust Belt become the 'Brain Belt'?

SEARCH FOR SOLUTIONS: Former ‘Rubber City’ Akron, Ohio, is among a growing number of Midwest cities trying to write themselves a new high-tech future.

 

MAY 1, 2017  AKRON, OHIO—Inside a clear plastic box the size of a rabbit hutch, a 12-inch drum turns slowly on its axis. At each turn the drum is coated with polymer threads, 100 times as thin as a human hair, fired from a needle-and-syringe electrospinner, just as Spider-Man shoots his webs. It takes 20 minutes to produce an adhesive film.

 

What exactly that film – which mimics the feet of the wall-scaling gecko – could do, and in which industries, is still being determined. But the promise of a dry adhesive – a binding material that uses no glue and can be applied and removed as needed, like invisible thumbtacks – has sparked commercial interest in Akron Ascent Innovations (AAI), the start-up that runs this lab in a refurbished red-brick tire factory.

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2017/0501/Can-the-Rust-Belt-become-the-Brain-Belt

Toronto becoming the economic and cultural hub of a Canada is only a recent occurrence. Montreal was the economic hub and Quebec City the cultural hub. And just as the USA was the economic giant of the Americas for 250 years, its corruption, citizen violence, militarism, social inequalities, religious fanaticism, insulated, hyperbolic nationalism and political dysfunction will allow the clean, largely crime-free, social democracy of Canada to overtake the USA, whom Canadians refer to as their "nosy neighbor to the south." I'd love for Northeast Ohio to join Canada before the anti-urban policies of Ohio and the USA finish destroying it.

 

Quebec City was nobodies cultural hub. I love QC- truly one of my favorite cities in the world. But it's not a hotbed of art, culture, or entertainment. Montreal was Canada's global city until Toronto and Vancouver grew up.

An article last week in the PD hints at a "gamechanger".  Doing a smidgen of research on this, it could be that they have found the holy grail in that they use a plasma charge with a microwave zap to maximize the fuel in the the cylinder. They give no official numbers but they seem to want to scale up fast for production. Literature suggests a magnitude of improvement at least. That essentially would mean doubling gas mileage.  Depending how efficient they could be it could also make catalytic converters irrelevant. There would be a lot of global changes from this. Even if it only gets to 20% improvement there will still be international ramifications.  All business advisors are in Cleveland for this so it would make sense it will likely end up at Ford engine plant no. 2.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2017/04/cle_chatter_bridge_to_nowhere.html

 

Eyeing idle Ford plant: Cleveland-based American Plasma Energy Group (APEG) is a company that hopes to change the world, or at least how the combustion engine works. The company recently announced an exclusive licensing deal with Plasma Igniter, LLC, to make the Coaxial Cavity Resonator Ignition System (CCRIS). The CCRIS is a fancy title for some pretty cool technology that replaces the traditional spark plug in car engines. The company's technology uses two signals, a microwave radio frequency and direct current, to ignite a new spark plug that uses much less fuel.

 

 

Redirected from a Cleveland development thread....

 

When I page through the Cleveland buildings on there, it's interesting to note the large quantity of buildings put up between 1965 and 1975, while the city began it's decline. 

 

Downtown was kept alive by people in the suburbs. The neighborhoods of Cleveland and many other Rust Belt cities were destroyed to the benefit of the suburbs due to a whole range of local, state, national and world trends, policies and emotions, and business activities. I contend now that the biggest thing holding back Cleveland is Cleveland. The sooner we can hit the reset button on many of our institutions and embrace new ideas, the better.

A lot of Cincinnati's apartment complexes were built in that same 1960s-1970s time frame too.  They were a good thing in that they increased density either by building on formerly unsuitable lots, or replaced scattered rundown older houses with pretty affordable units.  Unfortunately the construction quality is not good, and the architecture is terrible.  Their parking lots are also quite hideous.  I think zoning regulations were tightened significantly in this period specifically to stop the construction of such buildings.  You don't really see any from the 1980s, and anything more recently has generally been a PUD. 

I kind of like the orange-brick 1960s multifamilies around Cincinnati.  Some of them have a vague LA-look to them thanks to funny railings and patterned cinder block.  The 500 block of Lowell in Clifton is a comical collection of 6 and 8-unit buildings from that era, each with a slightly different design.  My guess is that maintaining one of them over time is WAY cheaper than buying an older narrow multifamily like those that comprise Clifton Heights.     

Lowell is interesting as a transition between the 1930s and 1940s art deco 4-plexes and the larger plain-Jane boxes of the 1960s and 1970s (like nearby Clifton Colony).  There's a lot of 1950s detailing on those Lowell buildings which is pretty rare around here, but it's everywhere around the fringes of the Chicago city limits and first ring suburbs like Skokie, Niles, and Lincolnwood.  There you see mostly single story houses fit on narrow city lots, a sort of midcentury bungalow/ranch hybrid. 

Yeah, there was a brief period of time when Cincinnati developers were going wild building multifamilies on previously undeveloped hillsides.  That's how we ended up with all the crazy buildings down in ravines with bridges leading to a top-floor front door.  One of the weirdest is the 3060 Marshall building, which is about 30 units, and located down in a pit.  There are several ground-level entrances, but also a weird bridge form the third floor up to the Marshall switchback:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1382821,-84.5272486,3a,75y,68.3h,63.72t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sGAgtJkVRjHeJTXfbmBWF4w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DGAgtJkVRjHeJTXfbmBWF4w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D9.27347%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glen+Parker+Ave,+Cincinnati,+OH+45223/@39.170716,-84.5404333,3a,75y,167.02h,81.17t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s72dcVK7_zFmxmLKGYmo56g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D72dcVK7_zFmxmLKGYmo56g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D27.885937%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b49524c7b015:0x61926aa34c6170d5!8m2!3d39.1708074!4d-84.5420761

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glen+Parker+Ave,+Cincinnati,+OH+45223/@39.171517,-84.5443191,3a,75y,37.97h,91.33t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s7DOhbrWFjUphIRxOVu2ppg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D7DOhbrWFjUphIRxOVu2ppg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D39.400837%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b49524c7b015:0x61926aa34c6170d5!8m2!3d39.1708074!4d-84.5420761

 

 

These buildings are all going to be around for another 100+ years.  It's hard to imagine them becoming retro cool, but they aren't being built anymore, so who knows. 

 

 

Interesting to note how many years passed between construction starts of the over 500 feet high towers

Looking back historically, we are due for another over 500 feet high tower -

It did take 37 years after the start of the Terminal Tower construction for Erieview Tower to begin rising- but then only 19 years until 200 Public Square started and only 6 more years to the start of the Key Tower.  Now, we're at 29 years and counting since the last over 500 footer - seems like Nucleus is our best hope for the next big    I'd  love to see another 80's like phase where we add Nucleus and that Jacobs lot tower within a decade.

I'm down with that, but would also take a dozen 20 story apartment/condo towers as well.

Interesting to note how many years passed between construction starts of the over 500 feet high towers

Looking back historically, we are due for another over 500 feet high tower -

It did take 37 years after the start of the Terminal Tower construction for Erieview Tower to begin rising- but then only 19 years until 200 Public Square started and only 6 more years to the start of the Key Tower.  Now, we're at 29 years and counting since the last over 500 footer - seems like Nucleus is our best hope for the next big    I'd  love to see another 80's like phase where we add Nucleus and that Jacobs lot tower within a decade.

 

If all the uses of a new Justice Center are stacked on top of each other, it would easily eclipse 500 feet and perhaps by a lot.

Interesting to note how many years passed between construction starts of the over 500 feet high towers

Looking back historically, we are due for another over 500 feet high tower -

It did take 37 years after the start of the Terminal Tower construction for Erieview Tower to begin rising- but then only 19 years until 200 Public Square started and only 6 more years to the start of the Key Tower.  Now, we're at 29 years and counting since the last over 500 footer - seems like Nucleus is our best hope for the next big    I'd  love to see another 80's like phase where we add Nucleus and that Jacobs lot tower within a decade.

 

Tall implies assertiveness and drive.

 

I recently saw a comparative discussion of the skylines of the three Cs, some tried to claim C-bus and Cincy were as good or better.  I pointed out that the tallest in those two would only be about 20 feet away from being 4th tallest in Cleveland.

Interesting to note how many years passed between construction starts of the over 500 feet high towers

Looking back historically, we are due for another over 500 feet high tower -

It did take 37 years after the start of the Terminal Tower construction for Erieview Tower to begin rising- but then only 19 years until 200 Public Square started and only 6 more years to the start of the Key Tower.  Now, we're at 29 years and counting since the last over 500 footer - seems like Nucleus is our best hope for the next big    I'd  love to see another 80's like phase where we add Nucleus and that Jacobs lot tower within a decade.

 

Tall implies assertiveness and drive.

 

I recently saw a comparative discussion of the skylines of the three Cs, some tried to claim C-bus and Cincy were as good or better.  I pointed out that the tallest in those two would only be about 20 feet away from being 4th tallest in Cleveland.

 

If we're using that silly logic, one would say Dubai has a better skyline than Chicago or Hong Kong.  Clearly, that isn't a favored opinion.  Not saying Cleveland is a better or worse skyline than Cincinnati or Columbus but height is only part of the equation for skyline aesthetics.

I think Cincinnati's skyline is better than Cleveland's. The buildings aren't as tall but it's much more dense. Columbus' skyline is a little weaker than Cleveland's.

I think Cincinnati's skyline is better than Cleveland's. The buildings aren't as tall but it's much more dense. Columbus' skyline is a little weaker than Cleveland's.

 

It depends on the angle which you're viewing the skyline, in my opinion. Each skyline has its' advantages and disadvantages. Cleveland's skyline from Edgewater or from a Clinic garage on the east side is way more impressive than the typical "magazine view" from the Flats or the Innerbelt Bridge or Voinovich Park, and Cincy's best angle IMO is from Mount Echo. Personally, my favorite views of Cincinnati delegate the downtown skyline to the background and instead focus on the rooftops and steeples of OTR and the basin. Columbus' skyline looks the most substantial and impressive when you're heading east on I-70. At any rate, "tallness" in my mind doesn't equal "best". Philip Johnson put it best when he compared the growth of ever-taller skyscrapers to a measuring contest of the phallic variety.

Yeah, I was basically taking all angles into consideration. It's a shame that (imo) the best view of the Cleveland skyline is from lake Erie, directly north of Downtown. Not many people get to see it often unless they're out catching Pokemon down by the Rock Hall/Marina.

One other thing that makes Cincinnati unique among Ohio's cities is that it has a distinctive-enough skyline to avoid being a Houston or a San Diego, but even if the skyline was awful, there are enough showpiece buildings that the city could still have a strong national visual brand. No one raves about New Orleans' or San Antonio's skylines, but one photo of Jackson Square or the Alamo and you already have a vision of the city in your mind. Cincy could easily have had that same image with Music Hall or Union Terminal if its skyline was really crappy.

Skylines, like cities, benefit from natural limits. Cities with a river, coastline, hills or even political boundaries to hem them in, and you'll usually find a denser skyline, which in part benefits from the concentration of transportation and development.

 

Chicago, New York, Seattle, San Francisco, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Detroit are all limited by natural features.

 

Houston, Dallas, Indianapolis, Columbus, Minneapolis, Denver, Atlanta, have few if any limits to their spread.

Right. That's why Pittsburgh is one of my favorites. It's one of the best case scenarios for that. It's especially cool if you're a fan of bridges. I almost look at Downtown Pittsburgh like it's a micro-Manhattan. 

 

Downtown Columbus looks like good from afar but up close it looks far from good  :-o Tragic.

Cincinnati's skyline is compact because postwar zoning only permitted skyscrapers on blocks owned by the city's wealthiest families.  A few of the 1980s skyscrapers stand upon land that is still family-owned and fuels decadent country club lifestyles and funds the political campaigns of the Lukens, Cranley, etc. 

I love JMecks random facts. They sound bizarre and questionable at first, then you realize that it explains so, so much.

I love JMecks random facts. They sound bizarre and questionable at first, then you realize that it explains so, so much.

 

They have also used cultural institutions to remove potential rival skyscraper locations.  The CAC, the Aronoff Center, and most recently the new SCPA were all put where they were put to remove those prime parcels from competing with land that they themselves own. 

I highly recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Downtown-Its-Rise-Fall-1880-1950/dp/0300090625/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495220718&sr=8-1&keywords=downtown+its+rise+and+fall+1880-1950

 

Discusses the rust belt downtowns individually as well as the bigger cities.  Spends a lot of time talking about how so much that goes on behind closed doors does so with either the aim of moving the center of a downtown or preventing that from happening.  This is a big reason why so many subway plans were scuttled before they broke ground, and of course why Cincinnati's was shut down after construction began. 

I wonder what all happened behind closed doors to cause the short north to be Columbus' new downtown. I bet there's a lot we don't know about.

I wonder what all happened behind closed doors to cause the short north to be Columbus' new downtown. I bet there's a lot we don't know about.

 

Good point. Are there any books or in-depth articles about how the Short North came about?

 

There are a number of factors here. Actually, it's probably far fetched to see any other stretch in the state of Ohio duplicate the same level of success...

 

-proximity to downtown

-proximity to ridiculously large state university

-proximity to gentrified Victorian Village

-High St. is the major thoroughfare

-existing infrastructure

-cheap space available for eclectic pioneers

-walkable streets

 

Also, a lot of absentee landlords Downtown uninterested in renting out first-floor retail spaces.