Yes, finally!!

 

November 15, 2012 at 5:35 pm

Petition asks Obama to give Toledo back to Michigan

 

The Michigan-Ohio War is far from over — and it has nothing to do with college football.

 

Kyle B. of Toledo on Thursday launched a drive at the White House's website for citizen petitions that enjoins President Barack Obama to return Toledo, Ohio, to the state of Michigan.

 

Michigan lost the border city to Ohio in the Toledo War from 1835-36. In exchange, Congress gave Michigan the Upper Peninsula.

 

The petition says the city was "wrongfully taken" and asks Obama to issue an executive order that would also require Ohio to pay Michigan $10 trillion in compensatory and punitive damages "for the illegal occupation that has caused the citizens of the State of Michigan to suffer extreme emotional distress in knowing that their brethren were subjugated by the City of Toledo government."

 

CONTINUED

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121115/METRO/211150449#ixzz2ChINipAq

Yes, finally!!

 

November 15, 2012 at 5:35 pm

Petition asks Obama to give Toledo back to Michigan

 

The Michigan-Ohio War is far from over — and it has nothing to do with college football.

 

Kyle B. of Toledo on Thursday launched a drive at the White House's website for citizen petitions that enjoins President Barack Obama to return Toledo, Ohio, to the state of Michigan.

 

Michigan lost the border city to Ohio in the Toledo War from 1835-36. In exchange, Congress gave Michigan the Upper Peninsula.

 

The petition says the city was "wrongfully taken" and asks Obama to issue an executive order that would also require Ohio to pay Michigan $10 trillion in compensatory and punitive damages "for the illegal occupation that has caused the citizens of the State of Michigan to suffer extreme emotional distress in knowing that their brethren were subjugated by the City of Toledo government."

 

CONTINUED

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121115/METRO/211150449#ixzz2ChINipAq

 

Can I say a gigantic WTF??

The key thing for this silly sh!t is...

 

The petition says the city was "wrongfully taken" and asks Obama to issue an executive order that would also require Ohio to pay Michigan $10 trillion in compensatory and punitive damages "for the illegal occupation that has caused the citizens of the State of Michigan to suffer extreme emotional distress in knowing that their brethren were subjugated by the City of Toledo government."

 

It sounds like Toledo should secede from Toledo.

Clearly the state home to Detroit and Flint among others would have been better.

Wanna re-neg?  TSUN can have Toledo if they give us the upper peninsula.  They can't have their cake and eat it too.

^ We could put the UP in congressional district 9.

Toledo should have never ended up in Ohio. It has always been a satellite of Detroit and has more in common with Southeast Michigan than any region in Ohio. Plus Michigan is serious about protecting the lakes, something Ohio has pussyfooted around for too long considering the toxic algae and open water dredge dumping in Toledo waters. I think the differences in Michigan government would do a lot to bring Toledo back from the brink of destruction. I just signed this petition!

 

Toledo's future lies in tourism, and Michigan has a lot of experience with these Rust Belt to tourism town transformations. With one of the nation's most important biospheres in Oak Openings (I don't think any other big city has that much biodiversity so close to it), one of the world's top bird migration sites, and one of the world's best natural freshwater fisheries (unless pollution kills them all off), Toledo has a potential market it can corner. There is a reason the National Center for Wildlife Photography is in Toledo. Toledo also landed the National Museum of the Great Lakes due to its shipping heritage. Get that damn Marina District built, and I see Toledo as an obvious extension of Michigan's tourism market. Close proximity to Put-in-Bay only seals the deal.

 

*Most signed petitions for this are coming from Michigan, not Ohio. Check out the website:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/give-toledo-ohio-state-michigan/0cvjC4fn

Toledo should have never ended up in Ohio. It has always been a satellite of Detroit and has more in common with Southeast Michigan than any region in Ohio. Plus Michigan is serious about protecting the lakes, something Ohio has pussyfooted around for too long considering the toxic algae and open water dredge dumping in Toledo waters. I think the differences in Michigan government would do a lot to bring Toledo back from the brink of destruction. I just signed this petition!

 

Yes, because the government of Michigan has certainly helped Highland Park, Detroit, Saginaw, Flint, Benton Harbor, Muskegon, Midland, Lansing (oy vey!), Jackson...uhmmm...and uh...

 

Toledo's future lies in tourism, and Michigan has a lot of experience with these Rust Belt to tourism town transformations.

 

It...does?  All the "tourist" towns of Michigan have generally always been nice (Traverse City, Holland/Grand Haven, Mackinaw, etc).

 

And the fact that most of the signed petitions are coming from Michigan should tell you something: Desperation

Toledo should have never ended up in Ohio. It has always been a satellite of Detroit and has more in common with Southeast Michigan than any region in Ohio. Plus Michigan is serious about protecting the lakes, something Ohio has pussyfooted around for too long considering the toxic algae and open water dredge dumping in Toledo waters. I think the differences in Michigan government would do a lot to bring Toledo back from the brink of destruction. I just signed this petition!

 

Toledo's future lies in tourism, and Michigan has a lot of experience with these Rust Belt to tourism town transformations. With one of the nation's most important biospheres in Oak Openings (I don't think any other big city has that much biodiversity so close to it), one of the world's top bird migration sites, and one of the world's best natural freshwater fisheries (unless pollution kills them all off), Toledo has a potential market it can corner. There is a reason the National Center for Wildlife Photography is in Toledo. Toledo also landed the National Museum of the Great Lakes due to its shipping heritage. Get that damn Marina District built, and I see Toledo as an obvious extension of Michigan's tourism market. Close proximity to Put-in-Bay only seals the deal.

 

*Most signed petitions for this are coming from Michigan, not Ohio. Check out the website:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/give-toledo-ohio-state-michigan/0cvjC4fn

 

I don't know whether to take this seriously or not.  Either way, it's hilarious.

^I don't know what other hope Toledo has short of giving away free buildings! At least the Detroit area has a growing tech industry, a massive STEM base, and the downtown is turning around. With every step forward in Toledo, it's two steps backwards. If Detroit gets that light rail on Woodward built, that corridor will transform and spinoff will materialize.

 

A lot of Ohioans talk trash on Michigan, but give it ten years, and Michigan will be having the last laugh. It already has more resources and attractive natural areas, but decline in Detroit has taken half the state's economy with it. There are some key indicators that Detroit it leveling off (downtown residential vacancies are one to look at- the market for urban living in Detroit is a lot deeper than originally thought). There are some big differences in the two state governments right now too.

 

And really, what's the difference between a slum in Toledo or Cleveland and a slum in Detroit? What about Flint compared to Youngstown? Ohio has no room to throw stones.

I don't know whether to take this seriously or not.  Either way, it's hilarious.

 

Actually, it's a bit scary that the Obama administration would even consider such petitions.

It's important to understand this is the American Idol of petitioning the government. Anyone can show up and say whatever they want (although I assume they screen for cursing, racism, sexism, etc). You get X number of "signatures" and you get a response not necessarily consideration.

Youngstown goes to Pittsburgh

Toledo to Michigan

Cincinatti to Kentucky

Northeast Ohio develops it's own state.

 

...is it me or do our cities lack Ohio pride. This certainly isn't Texas.

Cincinatti to Kentucky

 

Uh...

^The problem with that is you will have very few electoral votes. 

^I don't know what other hope Toledo has short of giving away free buildings! At least the Detroit area has a growing tech industry, a massive STEM base, and the downtown is turning around. With every step forward in Toledo, it's two steps backwards. If Detroit gets that light rail on Woodward built, that corridor will transform and spinoff will materialize.

 

A lot of Ohioans talk trash on Michigan, but give it ten years, and Michigan will be having the last laugh. It already has more resources and attractive natural areas, but decline in Detroit has taken half the state's economy with it. There are some key indicators that Detroit it leveling off (downtown residential vacancies are one to look at- the market for urban living in Detroit is a lot deeper than originally thought). There are some big differences in the two state governments right now too.

 

And really, what's the difference between a slum in Toledo or Cleveland and a slum in Detroit? What about Flint compared to Youngstown? Ohio has no room to throw stones.

 

HA.  I laugh now!  Mark this day, Detroit and MI are over!

Youngstown goes to Pittsburgh

Toledo to Michigan

Cincinatti to Kentucky

Northeast Ohio develops it's own state.

 

...is it me or do our cities lack Ohio pride. This certainly isn't Texas.

 

We keep Youngstown and Toledo.  Kentucky can have Cinci!

If Toledo goes to Mi, I say NEO goes back to Connecticut.

^And the Virginia Millitary District goes back to Virginia. For that matter, the southwest 1/3 of the state should go to Virginia. No, wait, all of Ohio and the rest of the Old Northwest should go back to France. Or maybe Spain. Oh, nevermind.

*sings*

 

Ooohhh I don't give a damn about the the whole state of Michigan, the whole state of Michigan, the whole state of Michigan.

 

I don't give a damn about the whole state of Michigan, cuz I'm from O-hi-o.

Toledo should have never ended up in Ohio. It has always been a satellite of Detroit and has more in common with Southeast Michigan than any region in Ohio. Plus Michigan is serious about protecting the lakes, something Ohio has pussyfooted around for too long considering the toxic algae and open water dredge dumping in Toledo waters. I think the differences in Michigan government would do a lot to bring Toledo back from the brink of destruction. I just signed this petition!

 

Toledo's future lies in tourism, and Michigan has a lot of experience with these Rust Belt to tourism town transformations. With one of the nation's most important biospheres in Oak Openings (I don't think any other big city has that much biodiversity so close to it), one of the world's top bird migration sites, and one of the world's best natural freshwater fisheries (unless pollution kills them all off), Toledo has a potential market it can corner. There is a reason the National Center for Wildlife Photography is in Toledo. Toledo also landed the National Museum of the Great Lakes due to its shipping heritage. Get that damn Marina District built, and I see Toledo as an obvious extension of Michigan's tourism market. Close proximity to Put-in-Bay only seals the deal.

 

*Most signed petitions for this are coming from Michigan, not Ohio. Check out the website:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/give-toledo-ohio-state-michigan/0cvjC4fn

 

Detroit is just as guilty of polluting western Lake Erie.  You point fingers at one specific location because you seem to have some vendetta against NW Ohio, but you also seem to refuse to look at other guilty culprits just north of the border.

 

I go to Michigan on a monthly basis.  Michigan is probably the most depressing place I have been to, outside of a few locations down South.  You can literally leave Ohio and enter Michigan and you know it.  Michigan has the worst infrastructure, and Detroit and no where else in the state outside of Grand Rapids seems to be investing in it.  How can you say Detroit (downtown and a plethora of other city neighborhoods at that) are actually improving?  Detroit was is on the verge of bankruptcy.  Remember not too long ago the sign "Enter Detroit at your own risk!".  Detroit has a high murder rate, an economy that revolves almost entirely around cars, and not only is Detroit going down, but so are many other areas like Flint, Saginaw, Jackson, etc.  Even the capital region is depressing.  Detroit is known for the "urban prairie" phenomenon, and once vibrant neighborhoods ALL OVER the city are marked by two houses sitting in a field.  Michigan is hurting, and I highly doubt Michigan will "have the last laugh" because each month Ohio continues to pull further and further away from Michigan in most categories.  I believe in the last jobs report, Michigan lost the most jobs of any state in the nation losing over 16,000 jobs, while Ohio created almost 14,000.

 

You compare Youngstown to Flint.  I live in the Youngstown area.  Youngstown has quite a bit more to offer than the Flint area.  And being in between to large metro areas that have proven turning yourself around takes time, but can pay off, is certainly helping.  Youngstown sits right between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, right along I-80 and a straight shot to NYC.  I am not the biggest fan of the gas industry, but having the Youngstown Incubator, a university with 15,000 students right next to downtown, several new residential conversions taking place downtown along with restaurants and hotels, Youngstown has far more promise than Flint, and more diversity in what makes it function.  From the Youngstown Symphony, Federal Street, the Butler, Millcreek Park which is one of the nation's largest urban park systems, and more.  Flint is a mini Detroit still trying to figure out what their next move is.

 

Michigan doesn't even have a city like Columbus, which is proving to be one of the few cities in the nation that was almost recession proof.  Cincinnati is one of the most unique cities in the Midwest, along with one of the most beautiful.  And Cleveland's economy went from steel and autos, to being a powerful WORLD player in the medical industry.  Cleveland and Cincinnati have neighborhoods that function and prosper that Detroit could only dream of, not to mention Cleveland actually has a light and heavy rail system, and Cincinnati is actually implementing a streetcar at this very moment.  Take a look at the biggest employers in Cincinnati and Cleveland versus Detroit.  They are a range of industries in Cincy and the Cleve versus cars in Detroit.  It shows in a myriad of economic indicators, and shows why Detroit is hurting more than any other city in the nation sans Las Vegas.  So judging by the amount of Michigan cars that I see all over Ohio from Northeast Ohio to Southwest Ohio, and knowing how many former Michiganders are moving to Ohio, I can attest that Ohio is doing much better.  Forget unemployment rates like 6.9% to 9.1%, but look around to the construction happening in the cities.  Detroit can pride itself on a new grocery store in Midtown, but that doesn't even compare to what is happening in Cleveland and Cincinnati.

Toledo should have never ended up in Ohio. It has always been a satellite of Detroit and has more in common with Southeast Michigan than any region in Ohio.

 

 

 

 

this is just not true. toledo is way over 50 miles away from ever shrinking detroit and the two have nothing to do with each other and nothing much in common. even detroit's historic suburbia sprawls away from toledo not toward it. what toledo does have is the former black swamp farmland surrounding it that is directly connected to its rightful place in nw ohio. petition fail. ditto texas secession.

 

 

Michigan desperation is hilarious. It's the only state bleeding population, its former residents move to Ohio in droves, it's home to Detroit and its namesake university rarely beats Ohio State in football, basketball or much of anything else.

 

Of course they want Toledo - it would instantly become Michigan's most promising city.

 

Dream on Michigan and wipe your rusty tears away. Toledo is going nowhere, no matter how many desperate Michiganders sign this silly petition. And if they're serious about claiming Toledo, I suppose they'd also have to agree to give the UP to its rightful owner - Wisconsin.

Youngstown goes to Pittsburgh

Toledo to Michigan

Cincinatti to Kentucky

Northeast Ohio develops it's own state.

 

...is it me or do our cities lack Ohio pride. This certainly isn't Texas.

 

We keep Youngstown and Toledo.  Kentucky can have Cinci!

 

Great idea. Let's give up one of the metros in the state that is actually, you know, growing.

toledo is way over 50 miles away from ever shrinking detroit and the two have nothing to do with each other and nothing much in common.

 

Jeep has nothing to do with Chrysler? Last I checked, Toledo was still an auto industry town.

 

I don't know, I see the same ghetto decline, same urban prairies, same crappy economy, same coney dogs, same factories, same unions, and same politics in Toledo. They have a lot in common. Blue UAW Toledo is an outlier in conservative Northwest Ohio. The saying "As Detroit goes, Toledo goes" didn't come out of thin air.

 

*and let's talk about shrinkage. Toledo is shrinking. Cleveland is shrinking. Youngstown is shrinking. Hell, all the urban areas in the state of Ohio are shrinking (even pre-WW2 Columbus). Ohio has a long way to go in the ghetto cycle before it levels off. So does Detroit. Impoverished neighborhoods, formerly family-oriented neighborhoods, etc. are still emptying out while downtowns and a few other single-friendly neighborhoods are growing. Ohio has a lot of the same urban decline and concentrated poverty found in Detroit. It has a lot of the same architectural strengths too. Ohio's cities are well behind urban areas on the coasts or in Chicago and Minneapolis. Ohioans need to get over the Michigan complex. As someone who has spent more than a fair amount of time in both states, the urban issues are much the same. Detroit gets most of the New York press, but it doesn't deserve to be singled out. Rust Belt is Rust Belt. I don't care if it's northern Ohio, southeastern Michigan, or upstate New York. These cities are still in the same boat despite rosy articles about medical device sales, growing hospitals, and booming college enrollment (that's happening everywhere).

 

Like Ohio's cities, Detroit's downtown is coming back...finally. Don't discount what's happening there and along Woodward. The situation is similar to what Ohio is going through:

 

Today, as often as not, people who work downtown don’t race home to the suburbs for a simple reason that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago: they also live downtown, in buildings that once stood empty.

 

The reverse exodus has become so pronounced that downtown Detroit can now be fairly accused of imitating such desirable New York addresses as Chelsea or TriBeCa. Yes, it’s gotten so bad — or good — that it’s now nearly impossible to find a vacant apartment to rent in downtown Detroit.

 

Mandy Davenport is a recent volunteer in this army of foot soldiers, mostly young people, who have moved into downtown. Many work in high-tech jobs, or they pursue creative careers while supporting themselves with day jobs, or, like Davenport, they’re part of the real estate boom.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/sports/baseball/a-long-awaited-upswing-for-downtown-detroit.html?_r=0

 

Could this article have also been written about Cleveland and Cincinnati? Yes.

 

even detroit's historic suburbia sprawls away from toledo not toward it

 

What does this have to do with anything? Toledo's historic suburbia sprawls towards Indiana, but Toledo's connections to Indiana are pretty much nill. It's a completely different political and cultural sphere.

 

And if anything, Oakland County has nothing to do with Detroit!

Of course they want Toledo - it would instantly become Michigan's most promising city.

 

Grand Rapids would still be Michigan's most promising city.

You point fingers at one specific location because you seem to have some vendetta against NW Ohio, but you also seem to refuse to look at other guilty culprits just north of the border.

 

Michigan is not to blame here. They've done more to save the lakes than any other state and the entire country of Canada (if you wanted to argue Ontario is partially guilty, then I'm with you). The Detroit River is not a major runoff source, nor is the River Raisin.

 

It's not all of Northwest Ohio that has led to this. Toledo and most of its suburbs are not to blame. It's places upriver, hence why state-level action is needed, not local government action (which is already happening in Toledo). And these issues aren't localized to just Toledo area. Runoff, sewer overflows, and closed beaches are statewide problems. But we need a thread dedicated to this stuff. I think I may have started one a long while back, but I don't remember. :|

 

Ohio has the power to fix Ohio-based problems.

Youngstown goes to Pittsburgh

Toledo to Michigan

Cincinatti to Kentucky

Northeast Ohio develops it's own state.

 

...is it me or do our cities lack Ohio pride. This certainly isn't Texas.

 

We keep Youngstown and Toledo.  Kentucky can have Cinci!

 

Great idea. Let's give up one of the metros in the state that is actually, you know, growing.

 

I say Ohio should keep Cincinnati but get rid of the rest of Southwest Ohio! The state can draw a new snake-shaped district along the Ohio River similar to the one along Lake Erie!

 

Cincinnati is a changing city with some good neighborhoods and a great downtown. It's the stuff that surrounds it that's scary...

I'm moving to Absaroka.

toledo is way over 50 miles away from ever shrinking detroit and the two have nothing to do with each other and nothing much in common.

 

Jeep has nothing to do with Chrysler? Last I checked, Toledo was still an auto industry town.

 

I don't know, I see the same ghetto decline, same urban prairies, same crappy economy, same coney dogs, same factories, same unions, and same politics in Toledo. They have a lot in common. Blue UAW Toledo is an outlier in conservative Northwest Ohio. The saying "As Detroit goes, Toledo goes" didn't come out of thin air.

 

*and let's talk about shrinkage. Toledo is shrinking fast. Cleveland is still shrinking. Youngstown is shrinking. Hell, all the urban areas in the state are shrinking (even pre-WW2 Columbus). Ohio has a long way to go in the ghetto cycle before it levels off. So does Detroit. Impoverished neighborhoods are still emptying out while downtowns and a few other neighborhoods are growing. Not many cities are in that boat. Ohio has a lot of the same urban decline and concentrated poverty found in Detroit. The state's cities are well behind urban areas on the coasts or in Chicago and Minneapolis.

 

Like Ohio's cities, Detroit's downtown is coming back...finally. Don't discount what's happening there and along Woodward. The situation is similar to what Ohio is going through:

 

Today, as often as not, people who work downtown don’t race home to the suburbs for a simple reason that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago: they also live downtown, in buildings that once stood empty.

 

The reverse exodus has become so pronounced that downtown Detroit can now be fairly accused of imitating such desirable New York addresses as Chelsea or TriBeCa. Yes, it’s gotten so bad — or good — that it’s now nearly impossible to find a vacant apartment to rent in downtown Detroit.

 

Mandy Davenport is a recent volunteer in this army of foot soldiers, mostly young people, who have moved into downtown. Many work in high-tech jobs, or they pursue creative careers while supporting themselves with day jobs, or, like Davenport, they’re part of the real estate boom.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/sports/baseball/a-long-awaited-upswing-for-downtown-detroit.html?_r=0

 

Could this article have also been written about Cleveland and Cincinnati?

 

I must have missed the fact where people were denying Cleveland or Cincinnati of their problems?  No one did so.  But obviously they're going to call something out when it is clearly exaggerating an issue, this whole thread is a perfect example of that.  Detroit's problems are so much worse than Cleveland's or Cincinnati's.  A trip through that city and to the Cleve and Cincinnati would easily explain this.  You tried to tie Michigan/Detroit as being some haven to Ohio/Cleveland/Cincinnati or whatever else occupies Ohio's border.  The fact of the matter is, Ohio is much healthier than Michigan.  I just got back from Pittsburgh on Wednesday hanging out with family in the North shore, Mount Washington, and Robinson.  I work in Pittsburgh 3 days a week some weeks.  I also saw the same problems in Pittsburgh that I have seen nation wide.  Surface parking lots all over the North shore, urban decay, empty storefronts, areas that were obviously economically depressed.  You're trying to limit these problems to Ohio, and Ohio only.  I have seen areas in North Carolina (Charlotte, Raleigh) in these "booming" areas that were full of empty chain strip plazas, and depressed working-class neighborhoods.  Uptown/Downtown Charlotte which was littered with parking lots.  If you weren't along College or Tyron streets, you were passing some type of large parking lot.  Strange, I thought Charlotte was suppose to be known as this booming city that was investing in all the good things urban, including its rail system. 

 

Yes, give Toledo to Michigan, at least they can boost their population above 10 million again.  But really, how long would that last?  Maybe a little desperate now that it is estimated Georgia has passed them up?

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2012/10/georgia-is-soon-to-become-eighth-state.html?page=all

 

Michigan is hurting, bad.  It's quite obvious that Ohio is having problems, just like what I saw living elsewhere.  These problems are not limited to just one state, no matter how much you want to try and portray that.  I can drive through certain areas of Cleveland and say "oh wow, this really looks like Detroit."  But the thing is, Cleveland is a lot healthier than Detroit in several areas.  Yes, Cleveland has the urban prairie aspect going on in areas like Hough, but Detroit is ravaged by it.  Even the Woodward corridor you can see this from downtown to Midtown.  It's great to see what is happening in Midtown or downtown Detroit, but just about every city in the country can sit there and say their downtown is doing great and that there are waiting lists to move into the newest most hip place in a new or renovated highrise.  So those articles and quotes you posted about Detroit, yeah, I could probably find the same thing about Boise, Idaho. Dan Gilbert has done great things for Detroit, but it still has a long way to go.  Cleveland, a much smaller city, has more than twice the population living downtown versus Detroit.  Downtown Cleveland is also connected to all areas of the city by rail.  Outside of Cleveland's Warehouse District, Cleveland actually has a nicely dense core over by the financial district up through Euclid.  Downtown Detroit is bombarded with surface lots all over the CBD, and looming in the distance are downtrodden art deco towers.  Cleveland has healthy neighborhoods that you can find on the east side or the west side.  In Detroit it is limited to a few areas, or concentrated in one area.

 

I remember being in Detroit just recently.  I had never seen so many people hate on the city so much.  So the few small percentages of people who actually call downtown Detroit home over the rest of the metro is not saying much.  It was almost a point of pride to say you had not been downtown and that you went to Somerset instead... pretty sad.  Detroit vs. suburbs is still a real thing, and only getting worse.  It is like being in two different regions.  Detroit is on the verge of bankruptcy and already has more murders this year than it did last year.  As they continue to to cut back departments, police officers post signs warning suburbanites to enter the city at their own risk, and more houses get torn down to make way for a field of weeds.... Detroit's problems certainly are not getting any better.  Like I said before, it's great to see what is happening in Midtown and downtown, but these are very small areas of the city that are getting much of the development dollars.  In say Cleveland or Cincinnati, it's a lot more spread out.  In 2012 alone I have been more excited about the projects happening in Tremont or Ohio city versus downtown.  Same goes with with Over The Rhine, which is probably one of the most successful stories of gentrification from the last 10 years.  Now, after several years of positive developments, they are moving on to bigger and better things in those neighborhoods; more prolific developments that have even that much more of an impact on the neighborhoods themselves.

 

Yes, Cleveland and Cincinnati, and even Columbus have their problems.  I drive to campus every day here in Youngstown and I can see them on South Ave.  You're not telling me things I do not already know.  But overall, Ohio's cities have more to offer than Michigan's.  I know I mentioned just Detroit, but drive through Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, or other mid-sized cities in Michigan and you see this.  Even Michigan's only shinning star Grand Rapids has its problems.  Ann Arbor is a college town, not really dependent on other aspects of what makes a big, diverse economy.  But yet, Columbus is not only proving itself as one of the most healthy cities in the nation, but Cleveland and Cincinnati are packing a punch on the national level as well.  Yes, Cleveland has a declining population that needs to be reversed, but it is certainly doing a lot of great things on a city-wide level.  Could they do more?  Certainly.  But overall, what it has had to work with, I think Cleveland has done a pretty damn good job, and I am more excited about Cleveland's future than most.  Cincinnati is truly a unique city, not only to Ohio, but the nation.  You just don't find Cincinnati's architecture anywhere else in the country.  And a lot of the this beautiful architecture is being turned into vibrant city neighborhoods where people want to live.

 

So good, let Michigan have the last laugh, because I see that as a falsity.  Ohio's economy is much more diverse, growing much faster than Michigan's, and Ohio's cities have a brighter future.  Cleveland realized it needed to diversify its economy a while ago, and it is paying off.  Detroit and Michigan were holding its breath to find out what was going to happen with the auto industry.  Chicago?  Yeah, it's nice in certain areas, but a lot it is no different than Detroit.  Last laugh?  Nah, maybe to Massachusetts.  I will give Boston credit for being an awesome city that does "urban" things right.  Certainly nothing in Michigan.  That's a good laugh, though.

If Toledo goes to Mi, I say NEO goes back to Connecticut.

 

NEO needs to be its own state too, but with all the Clevelanders who moved to Columbus, it makes sense to stay in Ohio. I think John Husted can get onboard this!

 

 

You point fingers at one specific location because you seem to have some vendetta against NW Ohio, but you also seem to refuse to look at other guilty culprits just north of the border.

 

Michigan is not to blame here. They've done more to save the lakes than any other state and the entire country of Canada (if you wanted to argue Ontario is partially guilty, then I'm with you). The Detroit River is not a major runoff source, nor is the River Raisin.

 

It's not all of Northwest Ohio that has led to this. Toledo and most of its suburbs are not to blame. It's places upriver, hence why state-level action is needed, not local government action (which is already happening in Toledo). And these issues aren't localized to just Toledo area. Runoff, sewer overflows, and closed beaches are statewide problems. But we need a thread dedicated to this stuff. I think I may have started one a long while back, but I don't remember. :|

 

Ohio has the power to fix Ohio-based problems.

 

No.  Detroit and SE Michigan affect Lake Erie too as far as pollution goes, especially in the western and more shallow portion of the lake.  It is also well known that the Great Lakes are a comprehensive system that works as one.  Flowing from the higher elevated lakes in the west to the lower lakes of Erie and Ontario to the east.  In fact, this is very evident around the hilly areas of Hamilton and Grimsby, Ontario and Niagara Falls.

Michigan is hurting, bad.  It's quite obvious that Ohio is having problems, just like what I saw living elsewhere.  These problems are not limited to just one state, no matter how much you want to try and portray that.

 

Where am I protraying that? I think I made it clear that Michigan has severe urban decline problems. This whole "Ohio is doing so much better" stuff is what gets me and is quite subjective (show me the hard numbers!). It is throwing stones at Michigan. Ohio is doing better in Ohio City, or Over-the-Rhine, or Mt. Adams, or German Village, etc. It's doing just as bad in East Cleveland, East/North Toledo, West Cincinnati, East Columbus, etc. Contrary to your belief, there are still a good number of cities in America where almost every single neighborhood is growing and healthy. Not every place has Ohio's problems. Not every city has widespread abandonment or ghetto issues. That is a pronounced problem in the Rust Belt, no point in denying it. Many places don't have the equivalent of East Cleveland or North Toledo. In fact, outside Ohio, I've only seen it in Buffalo, St. Louis, Rochester, Southside Chicago, West Virginia, Western PA, Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, and of course Detroit. Hence why I'm saying Ohio has more similar problems with Michigan than anywhere else. I found most Toledoans fundamentally understood this. I just don't understand the Michigan hate. Maybe it's because I was born north of the old state line! I've seen the whole state. I know what it has to offer. Detroit is ghetto as all hell. I know that. I never said it was better. I said it has a lot of the same problems. It doesn't deserve to be singled out all the time. Michigan is changing. That part of the story should not be overlooked.

 

I work in Pittsburgh 3 days a week some weeks.  I also saw the same problems in Pittsburgh that I have seen nation wide.  Surface parking lots all over the North shore, urban decay, empty storefronts, areas that were obviously economically depressed...

 

It's best not to go down this path...

 

Maybe you're looking at places similar to Ohio and ignoring places that are much different. Pittsburgh is not a gold standard, and Charlotte is one of the worst cities in the country! North Carolina (which is loaded with ex-Ohioans) is one of the last places you'll find good urbanity. Of course Ohio seems like urban paradise compared to that. Almost everyone I know in North Carolina is trying to figure out a way to move back to Ohio! People moved there for jobs, not quality of life. Most people don't desire to leave behind their family and get a job in southern-fried suburbia. It's just North Carolina was loaded with opportunity for Ohioans. Those days are done. It's not due to Ohio doing better than it was in 2005 or 1999 (the state still hasn't recovered to pre-2000 job levels), it's North Carolina doing a whole lot worse. Pittsburgh is a very beautiful city with a lot of great people, but it's still shrinking and is in regional decline.

 

Pick Seattle, Boston, DC, Denver, Minneapolis, etc. and the argument goes to much different ground (I'm not listing San Francisco, New York, or Chicago since that has never been a fair fight). There are some decently urban second tier American cities that largely avoided recessions and have been growing non-stop through them (even because of them). I think it's fair to compare Ohio cities to those, but many Ohioans do not. Maybe it's natural to compare Cleveland/Cincinnati/Columbus/Toledo/etc. to places like Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Grand Rapids, but I don't think that's the real competition...

 

Outside of Cleveland's Warehouse District, Cleveland actually has a nicely dense core over by the financial district up through Euclid.  Downtown Detroit is bombarded with surface lots all over the CBD, and looming in the distance are downtrodden art deco towers.  Cleveland has healthy neighborhoods that you can find on the east side or the west side.  In Detroit it is limited to a few areas, or concentrated in one area.

 

Percentage-wise, only Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo have lost as many people as Cleveland. As a result of this large exodus, the carnage is widespread (it also doesn't help that the metro is shrinking). It's likely to take just as long for Cleveland to come back as it will for Detroit. This is demographic reality. I agree Cleveland is currently one of the best cities in the Rust Belt, but it still has a lot of similarities with Detroit. I'm not pulling the poverty stats or aerial photos 1950-2010, because I suspect you already know about them. :wink: Cleveland's clear ace in the deck is its transit system. I think that could lead to it pulling away from the rest of Ohio.

 

Defend Cleveland and Ohio. Lord knows it needs a perception change across the country. I just don't find attacks on Detroit or Michigan to be fair. When I look at Michigan, I see a lot of negatives with a few areas of positives. I feel the same way about Ohio. Ohio is just more scattered since it's a multi-nodal state with six (formerly) major cities. Michigan's positives are concentrated on its Great Lakes coast while its negatives are centered in southeastern Michigan slums.

 

Even Michigan's only shinning star Grand Rapids has its problems.

 

It does, but they're on a lower scale than Ohio's competition in Toledo, Akron, and Dayton. Akron is not nearly as ghetto as Toledo, but it also doesn't exactly have the downtown of Grand Rapids. Lansing is weak, and Detroit has gotten really bad, but Michigan has its strong urban places too. Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor, Marquette, etc.

 

I'll give you the downtown Cleveland and downtown Cincinnati argument (though not downtown Columbus), and a few other gentrified neighborhoods, but as a whole, Ohio does not have anywhere near the functional urbanity it should have considering its large population and history of functional urbanity. That's a problem it shares with Michigan. You've got two states that were hit the hardest in 1982, 2001, and 2008, and their cities suffered severely due to it. However, that's only half of the story. Sprawl is the other half...what makes Ohio and Michigan unique is the level of sprawl seen in metro areas with population loss. They're dealing with the same urban problems, ones largely unique to the Rust Belt and other regions of the world in demographic decline.

 

Michigan doesn't deserve to be attacked!

 

*BTW, you're doing a good job selling Cleveland and especially Youngstown. You don't see many people playing up Youngstown's strengths these days.

If Toledo goes to Mi, I say NEO goes back to Connecticut.

 

NEO needs to be its own state too, but with all the Clevelanders who moved to Columbus, it makes sense to stay in Ohio. I think John Husted can get onboard this!

 

 

 

New Ohio keeps Ottawa County and it's a deal. Also, I don't think those borders fully deal with your agriculture runoff complaint that you believe Michigan would address. Would need to pick up several more counties further south.

Let them vote on it...and I'm only half-kidding when I say that.  I think that people should be able to associate and be governed by whom they want to be governed.  If Toledo wants to be part of Michigan, then let them leave.  Likewise, if Texas/Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi really want to secede, why not have a conversation about it?  In many ways, the country they leave behind may end up being better off.

 

Heck look at Europe, where nations such as Scotland, Catalonia, and Flanders may be making serious moves towards independence in the coming few years.  I understand why it's nice to have stability, but I also don't know that these lines on the map, which are often based on arbitrary decisions made many centuries ago, need to be set in stone and beyond even a discussion.

Michigan is hurting, bad.  It's quite obvious that Ohio is having problems, just like what I saw living elsewhere.  These problems are not limited to just one state, no matter how much you want to try and portray that.

 

Where am I protraying that? I think I made it clear that Michigan has severe urban decline problems. This whole "Ohio is doing so much better" stuff is what gets me and is quite subjective (show me the hard numbers!). It is throwing stones at Michigan. Ohio is doing better in Ohio City, or Over-the-Rhine, or Mt. Adams, or German Village, etc. It's doing just as bad in East Cleveland, East/North Toledo, West Cincinnati, East Columbus, etc. Contrary to your belief, there are still a good number of cities in America where almost every single neighborhood is growing and healthy. Not every place has Ohio's problems. Not every city has widespread abandonment or ghetto issues. That is a pronounced problem in the Rust Belt, no point in denying it. Many places don't have the equivalent of East Cleveland or North Toledo. In fact, outside Ohio, I've only seen it in Buffalo, St. Louis, Rochester, Southside Chicago, West Virginia, Western PA, Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, and of course Detroit. Hence why I'm saying Ohio has more similar problems with Michigan than anywhere else. I found most Toledoans fundamentally understood this. I just don't understand the Michigan hate. Maybe it's because I was born north of the old state line! I've seen the whole state. I know what it has to offer. Detroit is ghetto as all hell. I know that. I never said it was better. I said it has a lot of the same problems. It doesn't deserve to be singled out all the time. Michigan is changing. That part of the story should not be overlooked.

 

I work in Pittsburgh 3 days a week some weeks.  I also saw the same problems in Pittsburgh that I have seen nation wide.  Surface parking lots all over the North shore, urban decay, empty storefronts, areas that were obviously economically depressed...

 

It's best not to go down this path...

 

Maybe you're looking at places similar to Ohio and ignoring places that are much different. Pittsburgh is not a gold standard, and Charlotte is one of the worst cities in the country! North Carolina (which is loaded with ex-Ohioans) is one of the last places you'll find good urbanity. Of course Ohio seems like urban paradise compared to that. Almost everyone I know in North Carolina is trying to figure out a way to move back to Ohio! People moved there for jobs, not quality of life. Most people don't desire to leave behind their family and get a job in southern-fried suburbia. It's just North Carolina was loaded with opportunity for Ohioans. Those days are done. It's not due to Ohio doing better than it was in 2005 or 1999 (the state still hasn't recovered to pre-2000 job levels), it's North Carolina doing a whole lot worse. Pittsburgh is a very beautiful city with a lot of great people, but it's still shrinking and is in regional decline.

 

Pick Seattle, Boston, DC, Denver, Minneapolis, etc. and the argument goes to much different ground (I'm not listing San Francisco, New York, or Chicago since that has never been a fair fight). There are some decently urban second tier American cities that largely avoided recessions and have been growing non-stop through them (even because of them). I think it's fair to compare Ohio cities to those, but many Ohioans do not. Maybe it's natural to compare Cleveland/Cincinnati/Columbus/Toledo/etc. to places like Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Grand Rapids, but I don't think that's the real competition...

 

Outside of Cleveland's Warehouse District, Cleveland actually has a nicely dense core over by the financial district up through Euclid.  Downtown Detroit is bombarded with surface lots all over the CBD, and looming in the distance are downtrodden art deco towers.  Cleveland has healthy neighborhoods that you can find on the east side or the west side.  In Detroit it is limited to a few areas, or concentrated in one area.

 

Percentage-wise, only Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo have lost as many people as Cleveland. As a result of this large exodus, the carnage is widespread (it also doesn't help that the metro is shrinking). It's likely to take just as long for Cleveland to come back as it will for Detroit. This is demographic reality. I agree Cleveland is currently one of the best cities in the Rust Belt, but it still has a lot of similarities with Detroit. I'm not pulling the poverty stats or aerial photos 1950-2010, because I suspect you already know about them. :wink: Cleveland's clear ace in the deck is its transit system. I think that could lead to it pulling away from the rest of Ohio.

 

Defend Cleveland and Ohio. Lord knows it needs a perception change across the country. I just don't find attacks on Detroit or Michigan to be fair. When I look at Michigan, I see a lot of negatives with a few areas of positives. I feel the same way about Ohio. Ohio is just more scattered since it's a multi-nodal state with six (formerly) major cities. Michigan's positives are concentrated on its Great Lakes coast while its negatives are centered in southeastern Michigan slums.

 

Even Michigan's only shinning star Grand Rapids has its problems.

 

It does, but they're on a lower scale than Ohio's competition in Toledo, Akron, and Dayton. Akron is not nearly as ghetto as Toledo, but it also doesn't exactly have the downtown of Grand Rapids. Lansing is weak, and Detroit has gotten really bad, but Michigan has its strong urban places too. Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor, Marquette, etc.

 

I'll give you the downtown Cleveland and downtown Cincinnati argument (though not downtown Columbus), and a few other gentrified neighborhoods, but as a whole, Ohio does not have anywhere near the functional urbanity it should have considering its large population and history of functional urbanity. That's a problem it shares with Michigan. You've got two states that were hit the hardest in 1982, 2001, and 2008, and their cities suffered severely due to it. However, that's only half of the story. Sprawl is the other half...what makes Ohio and Michigan unique is the level of sprawl seen in metro areas with population loss. They're dealing with the same urban problems, ones largely unique to the Rust Belt and other regions of the world in demographic decline.

 

Michigan doesn't deserve to be attacked!

 

*BTW, you're doing a good job selling Cleveland and especially Youngstown. You don't see many people playing up Youngstown's strengths these days.

 

Child, sometimes I think you type, just so you can read what you've written and believe it.

This has turned into yet another call to design a state with few Republicans.

If Toledo goes to Mi, I say NEO goes back to Connecticut.

 

NEO needs to be its own state too, but with all the Clevelanders who moved to Columbus, it makes sense to stay in Ohio. I think John Husted can get onboard this!

 

 

 

I just want to point out in this ridiculous thread that Dayton would never join Indiana for anything and is fully Ohio. It's about as Ohio State Country as Cleveland or Columbus.

Child, sometimes I think you type, just so you can read what you've written and believe it.

 

I've always wondered the same about you! :wink:

Toledo should have never ended up in Ohio. It has always been a satellite of Detroit and has more in common with Southeast Michigan than any region in Ohio. Plus Michigan is serious about protecting the lakes, something Ohio has pussyfooted around for too long considering the toxic algae and open water dredge dumping in Toledo waters. I think the differences in Michigan government would do a lot to bring Toledo back from the brink of destruction. I just signed this petition!

 

Yes, because the government of Michigan has certainly helped Highland Park, Detroit, Saginaw, Flint, Benton Harbor, Muskegon, Midland, Lansing (oy vey!), Jackson...uhmmm...and uh...

 

Toledo's future lies in tourism, and Michigan has a lot of experience with these Rust Belt to tourism town transformations.

 

It...does?  All the "tourist" towns of Michigan have generally always been nice (Traverse City, Holland/Grand Haven, Mackinaw, etc).

 

And the fact that most of the signed petitions are coming from Michigan should tell you something: Desperation

 

Ohio's tourism industry makes more than twice what Michigan does annually.  It's not even close.  Apparently, Michigan doesn't know wtf its doing despite the nonsensical "Pure Michigan" ads.

^I don't know what other hope Toledo has short of giving away free buildings! At least the Detroit area has a growing tech industry, a massive STEM base, and the downtown is turning around. With every step forward in Toledo, it's two steps backwards. If Detroit gets that light rail on Woodward built, that corridor will transform and spinoff will materialize.

 

A lot of Ohioans talk trash on Michigan, but give it ten years, and Michigan will be having the last laugh. It already has more resources and attractive natural areas, but decline in Detroit has taken half the state's economy with it. There are some key indicators that Detroit it leveling off (downtown residential vacancies are one to look at- the market for urban living in Detroit is a lot deeper than originally thought). There are some big differences in the two state governments right now too.

 

And really, what's the difference between a slum in Toledo or Cleveland and a slum in Detroit? What about Flint compared to Youngstown? Ohio has no room to throw stones.

 

I know it's fashionable to pick on Detroit, but saying any city should emulate it may be the strangest comment ever made.

 

More resources in what, exactly?  Ohio has the Great Lakes access too, it has a sh*tload of natural gas and coal, and Ohio adds more to the national GDP than Michigan does.  Michigan's biggest exports for a long time now have been terrible news and Forbes 10 Worst lists.  You're just way off base here.

[i'll give you the downtown Cleveland and downtown Cincinnati argument (though not downtown Columbus), and a few other gentrified neighborhoods, but as a whole, Ohio does not have anywhere near the functional urbanity it should have considering its large population and history of functional urbanity. That's a problem it shares with Michigan. You've got two states that were hit the hardest in 1982, 2001, and 2008, and their cities suffered severely due to it. However, that's only half of the story. Sprawl is the other half...what makes Ohio and Michigan unique is the level of sprawl seen in metro areas with population loss. They're dealing with the same urban problems, ones largely unique to the Rust Belt and other regions of the world in demographic decline.

 

Michigan doesn't deserve to be attacked!

 

 

Ohio does not have a sprawl problem, at least not in the way that could be defined as runaway, large-scale sprawl.  I've seen maps and %'s and Ohio cities have nothing on the Sun Belt or West.  Cleveland actually had the lowest level in the state.  Perhaps you have a very different definition of sprawl. 

 

The "Rust Belt" refers to an ever-shrinking set of specific metros and doesn't even encompass whole regions, nor is it reserved for Great Lakes cities.  Population loss really doesn't have anything to do with the term, anyway.

Ohio does not have a sprawl problem, at least not in the way that could be defined as runaway, large-scale sprawl. 

 

It does if you compare a metro's sprawl with overall its population gain (or lack of). But we have threads more appropriate for this discussion.

Ohio does not have a sprawl problem, at least not in the way that could be defined as runaway, large-scale sprawl. 

 

It does if you compare a metro's sprawl with overall its population gain (or lack of). But we have threads more appropriate for this discussion.

 

Well, that gets into subjective areas.  What constitutes sprawl?  How is it measured?  Any development outside city limits?  Population density measurements?  Type of buildings?  The numbers I saw measured by exurban development and population, so generally outside of city limits.  For those, Ohio's cities, even Columbus, had relatively low sprawl levels compared to many areas of the country.  Different measurements may find different results.  It's an interesting discussion, but you're right, probably better reserved for other threads.

Child, sometimes I think you type, just so you can read what you've written and believe it.

 

I've always wondered the same about you! ;)

 

Pro's - we diminish our border with Indiana

 

Con's - we lose the Mud Hens to Meatchicken

 

Oh, I don't know... let me think about it, will ya Charlie?

 

this is the silliest idea I've seen. First, I don't think its overexaggerating to say that I want to see the medication of anyone who thinks that Michigan (especially DETROIT of all places) is in a better position than Cleveland, Columbus, Cinci, or, hell, the whole state of Ohio. Lay down the pipe. I mean, seriously. First, Detroit is facing bankruptcy, like now, like RIGHT now, like they may not make it through January 2013 without going bankrupt. Follow them? What an absurd thing to say.

 

Headline: Detroit seen as bankruptcy-bound

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2012/11/29/Detroit-seen-as-bankruptcy-bound/UPI-74011354220958/

 

Headline: Detroit on the Verge of Insolvency, Again

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324020804578149591181529974.html

 

Headline: Detroit's bond status downgraded even more by Moody's

http://www.freep.com/article/20121129/NEWS01/121129054/Detroit-junk-status-bond-rating-Moody-s-Investors-Service?odyssey=nav%7Chead

 

And this was just this week! Detroit is facing bankruptcy for the THIRD YEAR IN A ROW. And it looks like they may actually go bankrupt for real this time. (If it happens, they will be the largest American city to go bankrupt EVER. In the history of the American Republic.) So following Michigan's lead, especially Detroit, is so ridiculous that I don't know if there's a response that gives it justice. And I (only half-jokingly) question my sanity and the sanity of my fellow commenters who decided to engage in this foolishness.

I need to make that long planned road trip to Toledo to see if its as sucky as Dayton.

 

I suspect suburban Dayton is probably pretty affluent compared to Toodle-ee-do because of all that defense spending, but  I want to see if the "old city" is equally sucky.  I WAS in Toledo once years ago, and noted there was no "Oregon", but Dayton didnt have anything like Lagrange Avenue either (which was still somewhat Polish then) or that Barrio on S. Broadway.

 

Time for a return trip....

 

 

On edit..speaking of Detroit....just got this book...at the library and its next to the keyboard waiting to be checked out:

 

Detroit City is the Place to Be

...subtitled..."The Afterlife of the American Metropolis"

 

 

Michigan is hurting, bad.  It's quite obvious that Ohio is having problems, just like what I saw living elsewhere.  These problems are not limited to just one state, no matter how much you want to try and portray that.

 

Where am I protraying that? I think I made it clear that Michigan has severe urban decline problems. This whole "Ohio is doing so much better" stuff is what gets me and is quite subjective (show me the hard numbers!). It is throwing stones at Michigan. Ohio is doing better in Ohio City, or Over-the-Rhine, or Mt. Adams, or German Village, etc. It's doing just as bad in East Cleveland, East/North Toledo, West Cincinnati, East Columbus, etc. Contrary to your belief, there are still a good number of cities in America where almost every single neighborhood is growing and healthy. Not every place has Ohio's problems. Not every city has widespread abandonment or ghetto issues. That is a pronounced problem in the Rust Belt, no point in denying it. Many places don't have the equivalent of East Cleveland or North Toledo. In fact, outside Ohio, I've only seen it in Buffalo, St. Louis, Rochester, Southside Chicago, West Virginia, Western PA, Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, and of course Detroit. Hence why I'm saying Ohio has more similar problems with Michigan than anywhere else. I found most Toledoans fundamentally understood this. I just don't understand the Michigan hate. Maybe it's because I was born north of the old state line! I've seen the whole state. I know what it has to offer. Detroit is ghetto as all hell. I know that. I never said it was better. I said it has a lot of the same problems. It doesn't deserve to be singled out all the time. Michigan is changing. That part of the story should not be overlooked.

 

I work in Pittsburgh 3 days a week some weeks.  I also saw the same problems in Pittsburgh that I have seen nation wide.  Surface parking lots all over the North shore, urban decay, empty storefronts, areas that were obviously economically depressed...

 

It's best not to go down this path...

 

Maybe you're looking at places similar to Ohio and ignoring places that are much different. Pittsburgh is not a gold standard, and Charlotte is one of the worst cities in the country! North Carolina (which is loaded with ex-Ohioans) is one of the last places you'll find good urbanity. Of course Ohio seems like urban paradise compared to that. Almost everyone I know in North Carolina is trying to figure out a way to move back to Ohio! People moved there for jobs, not quality of life. Most people don't desire to leave behind their family and get a job in southern-fried suburbia. It's just North Carolina was loaded with opportunity for Ohioans. Those days are done. It's not due to Ohio doing better than it was in 2005 or 1999 (the state still hasn't recovered to pre-2000 job levels), it's North Carolina doing a whole lot worse. Pittsburgh is a very beautiful city with a lot of great people, but it's still shrinking and is in regional decline.

 

Pick Seattle, Boston, DC, Denver, Minneapolis, etc. and the argument goes to much different ground (I'm not listing San Francisco, New York, or Chicago since that has never been a fair fight). There are some decently urban second tier American cities that largely avoided recessions and have been growing non-stop through them (even because of them). I think it's fair to compare Ohio cities to those, but many Ohioans do not. Maybe it's natural to compare Cleveland/Cincinnati/Columbus/Toledo/etc. to places like Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Grand Rapids, but I don't think that's the real competition...

 

Outside of Cleveland's Warehouse District, Cleveland actually has a nicely dense core over by the financial district up through Euclid.  Downtown Detroit is bombarded with surface lots all over the CBD, and looming in the distance are downtrodden art deco towers.  Cleveland has healthy neighborhoods that you can find on the east side or the west side.  In Detroit it is limited to a few areas, or concentrated in one area.

 

Percentage-wise, only Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo have lost as many people as Cleveland. As a result of this large exodus, the carnage is widespread (it also doesn't help that the metro is shrinking). It's likely to take just as long for Cleveland to come back as it will for Detroit. This is demographic reality. I agree Cleveland is currently one of the best cities in the Rust Belt, but it still has a lot of similarities with Detroit. I'm not pulling the poverty stats or aerial photos 1950-2010, because I suspect you already know about them. :wink: Cleveland's clear ace in the deck is its transit system. I think that could lead to it pulling away from the rest of Ohio.

 

Defend Cleveland and Ohio. Lord knows it needs a perception change across the country. I just don't find attacks on Detroit or Michigan to be fair. When I look at Michigan, I see a lot of negatives with a few areas of positives. I feel the same way about Ohio. Ohio is just more scattered since it's a multi-nodal state with six (formerly) major cities. Michigan's positives are concentrated on its Great Lakes coast while its negatives are centered in southeastern Michigan slums.

 

Even Michigan's only shinning star Grand Rapids has its problems.

 

It does, but they're on a lower scale than Ohio's competition in Toledo, Akron, and Dayton. Akron is not nearly as ghetto as Toledo, but it also doesn't exactly have the downtown of Grand Rapids. Lansing is weak, and Detroit has gotten really bad, but Michigan has its strong urban places too. Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor, Marquette, etc.

 

I'll give you the downtown Cleveland and downtown Cincinnati argument (though not downtown Columbus), and a few other gentrified neighborhoods, but as a whole, Ohio does not have anywhere near the functional urbanity it should have considering its large population and history of functional urbanity. That's a problem it shares with Michigan. You've got two states that were hit the hardest in 1982, 2001, and 2008, and their cities suffered severely due to it. However, that's only half of the story. Sprawl is the other half...what makes Ohio and Michigan unique is the level of sprawl seen in metro areas with population loss. They're dealing with the same urban problems, ones largely unique to the Rust Belt and other regions of the world in demographic decline.

 

Michigan doesn't deserve to be attacked!

 

*BTW, you're doing a good job selling Cleveland and especially Youngstown. You don't see many people playing up Youngstown's strengths these days.

 

It's not hard, all the numbers are there.  From unemployment rates, job growth, diversification in the economy... not to mention financial stability.  Ohio a few years ago was almost as bad as Michigan, but Ohio's credit rating is leaps and bounds ahead of Michigan's.  There's no Michigan hate.  You're completely misinterpreting what I am trying to say.  If there is any hate, it's your hate for Ohio that you consistently show.  That is exactly what you portray post after post.  If Michigan is "changing", then Ohio has changed for the past two decades when it diversified its economy.  Michigan is dependent off the auto industry.  Read the Detroit Free Press, if they're not talking about MSU or UofM, they are talking about something auto related.  No one is denying Ohio of its problems, you just seem to paint Ohio with this horribly negative brush.  I lived down South for a couple years, I will take what we have here in Ohio over the South any day.  When it comes to surrounding states, there's only one I would consider moving to, and actually plan to some day, and that's Pennsylvania.  Kentucky was one of the most backward states I have ever been to, and the poverty level was like walking into some trailer park wasteland.  Leaving Ohio and entering Michigan was like night and day with how bad their roads are and infrastructure were.  It's not just a Detroit problem, but it exists all over the Detroit metro, Lansing, Flint, and all over the eastern and central parts of the state.  I will be one of the last ones to support major expansions on the interstate system when perfectly good transit options exist, but driving on Michigan roads are like driving in Paraguay.  When I first went to Michigan, I couldn't even comprehend how bad their roads were, you would turn from one road to the next and it was just as bad as the last.

 

I know good urbanity when it comes to other cities.  I wasn't talking about Pittsburgh and Charlotte for the end all be all of good urban dynamics.  Although, your praises for Pittsburgh certainly show you don't know the city as well as some of us who are around it weekly.  In my opinion, I would take Portland, Denver, or Seattle over anything in overrated California any day.  Hell, I would even go back to Florida before I go back to California, and that's saying something.  I am not comparing Cleveland or Cincinnati to any local cities.  I think Cleveland can fair pretty damn well against other cities around the country.  Didn't know we were suppose to do that.  Locally, I think the only city that Cleveland competes with is Pittsburgh.  It blows Detroit and Indianapolis out of the water in plenty of aspects.... mass transit could be one of them.  Viable neighborhoods, hell yes.  I will go down that path, bring it on.  Let's talk about good urban cities.  Oh wait, YOU created this thread about TOLEDO in OHIO going back to MICHIGAN, and want to act like you weren't trying to boost Michigan like you always do?  No one said anything bad about Michigan, or gives it the time of day on here, except you. This thread is a good example of that. But don't expect people to just sit back while you spew your opinion as if it is suppose to be reality.

 

Cleveland is much healthier than Detroit.  Population declines and poverty?  Take a ride through Detroit's urban prairies and then drive through the east side of Cleveland.  There are areas of Cleveland that are desolate, but not nearly as bad as Detroit.  You can literally look on for blocks in Detroit and see nothing but fields of weeds.  At least update yourself on that much.  Cleveland doesn't need to recover like Detroit.  Detroit is trying to invest in downtown and Midtown while the rest of the city goes to war with itself.  Meanwhile, eastern neighborhoods of Cleveland are seeing intense development, and development from other key areas that spill into eastern neighborhoods.  League Park and Upper Chester are good examples of this.  Plus, it also helps to have one of the world's best medical based economies and institutions like the Cleveland Clinic and Universities Hospitals in University Circle which is probably the best neighborhood in the Midwest outside of Chicago.

 

Defend Michigan, because that state's image is much worse off than Ohio's.  You find the perceptions against Michigan to be unfair?  I certainly find them to be unfair against Ohio, especially with the attitude you have.  But yet, I can think of plenty of states around the country who have horrible image problems, but once again, to you, Ohio is the worst of the worst.  Kentucky, West Virginia, every state in the South outside of NC, GA, and FL.  The Great Plains.... I just finished watching a special on NBC tonight about Detroit's decline.  I just saw that Detroit had almost 400 murders this year.  They also mentioned how Flint and Grand Rapids saw their murder rates increase.  Flint, percentage wise, saw more murders than Detroit.  Meanwhile, Cincinnati saw its murders drop to 53, a 20% decrease from last year.  In fact, Flint, a city much smaller than Cincinnati had a higher raw number murder rate! Michigan's economy is in shambles, and their entire hope rides on that of the auto industry.  At least Cincinnati can go to bed tonight being home to one of the top 10 cities for fortune 500 based companies and a below average unemployment rate, as well as home to a wide variety of companies.  Columbus is a leader in research, one of the lowest unemployment rates of major cities, and several fortune 500 companies.  Cleveland is a leader in the medical field, and is home to several banking and insurance companies, and a lower than average unemployment rate.

 

Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo are decent, but they are nothing to write home about.  Give them praise and bash anything in Ohio is typical of you, so I am really not expecting anything different.  Ann Arbor is a college town.  I can find a plethora of awesome college towns around the country.  Lincoln, Nebraska isn't half bad.... who would have thought.

 

Once again, no one is denying the sprawl aspect or other problems that we face in this state.  But huge swaths of neighborhoods in Detroit are vacant... meanwhile, you can find very viable neighborhoods in Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Columbus.  Outside of a few already trendy cities, I think Ohio cities have shown some of the biggest comebacks in urbanity in the country... sans your opinion, of course.  :wink:

 

"Michigan doesn't deserve to be attacked!"  Ok, but I have no problem calling out the "reality" of what you're trying to say.  I have no problem continuing.  You want stats, facts, etc?  That's fine.  I don't throw out my opinion and expect it to be interpreted as fact.  I go to Michigan all the time, it is very depressing and needs a lot of help.  In Ohio, I have seen changes that were needed from severe decline.  I see that a diversifying economy is paying off.  In Michigan, they praise a new auto plant bringing in a few hundred jobs.  Meanwhile, Cleveland is building a medical mart and expanding its convention center to promote medical technologies. 

 

BTW, I guess I did something I wasn't intending to do.... "sell" Cleveland and Youngstown.  I wasn't trying to boost Youngstown's strengths, just saying how much better off it is then Flint.  Keep "selling" Michigan, it needs it.