Just before we begin, I know many of you guys are critical about the true urban value of Crocker Park, but I am actually moderately surprised that the RTA is accommodated within their confines and also with the amount of housing. Should have been built around a Rapid station, but it wasn't.

 

Sorry these are so long delayed but I figure now is a better time to post these in light of the "Happy Holidays" banners in all of these pics, unless the Holiday they were referring to was Halloween.

 

 

And no, I'm not just taking a photo of the same street/building from 3-4 different angles. It all just really looks like sameness.

 

And what once was, and still is...behind the parking lot:

fantastic photos, but cp is just another lifestyle mall. no better or worse than any of the other bazillions of them. instead of recreating main street usa, why not just revive all the main street usa's? just think if a lifestyle mall developer put all this $ and effort into reviving a dormant suburban main street with mall shops instead of building one of these? ooh how clever would that be?? sheesh.

 

 

 

fantastic photos, but cp is just another lifestyle mall. no better or worse than any of the other bazillions of them. instead of recreating main street usa, why not just revive all the main street usa's? just think if a lifestyle mall developer put all this $ and effort into reviving a dormant suburban main street with mall shops instead of building one of these? ooh how clever would that be?? sheesh.

 

Think it's called Hudson, not to restart that comparison!

It's just a weird mish-mash of architectural style.

The plaza with the fireplace and kiosks, love it. It's a nice little mini-slice of NYC's Bryant Park.

 

Why this type of warm and inviting setup has not been emulated on Public Square is beyond me.

RTA owns Public Square. Unofficially.

 

And ColDayMan, I believe that architectural style is called "lifestyle center"..for lack of a specific motif or style. ;)

Location, location, location.  Plop this same plan down in Midtown and the reaction would be completely different.  There would still be critics (i.e. those people would criticize anything that is built in the City), but I think most of the hate stems from the developers choice of location.

Location, location, location.  Plop this same plan down in Midtown and the reaction would be completely different.  There would still be critics (i.e. those people would criticize anything that is built in the City), but I think most of the hate stems from the developers choice of location.

 

Agreed. And Crocker Park was done way better than Legacy Village and Eton

Some of you will never get it.  Its pointless to even consider "plopping this down in Midtown" or some other partially developed area with various owners.  No project even remotely close to CP would be done because you'd have to deal with dozens of hold out property owners, contaminated soils issues, various zoning hurdles...

 

The reason Crocker Park and Legacy Village were done where they are is because it was essentially green field development, a single owner (in the case of Legacy Village, not exactly sure about Crocker)

^Eaaaasy there, Trigger.  I can probably name a hundred of reasons why this development would not be feasible in Midtown.  I was just make a general comment about this board's attitude towards the development 

My attitude towards the development has nothing to do with the generic lifestyle center stores or mish-mash architecture.  It's good mixed-use density and I would take it any day over most other lifestyle centers even.  The reason I hate where it is is because it's a tiny island surrounded with 6 lane highways, not part of a larger urban whole.

I agree that Crocker Park is one of the best lifestyle centers I've ever seen. Structured parking (mostly), grocery store, critical mass of housing, interactive highly-programmed green space, iconic features like the roundabout, minimal transit integration, and so on.

 

It's not the best I've ever seen. That would have to be Mockingbird Station, an edgier lifestyle center built up around Dallas's DART Red Line.

 

I can't really begin with how much I dislike Legacy Village. Cedar is a great corridor, and its greatness could extend a lot further east than it already does if only Legacy Village weren't recessed allll the way behind the parking. Eton interacts more with Chagrin, but it's nothing more than an elaborate strip mall.

I agree that Crocker Park is one of the best lifestyle centers I've ever seen. Structured parking (mostly), grocery store, critical mass of housing, interactive highly-programmed green space, iconic features like the roundabout, minimal transit integration, and so on.

 

It's not the best I've ever seen. That would have to be Mockingbird Station, an edgier lifestyle center built up around Dallas's DART Red Line.

 

I can't really begin with how much I dislike Legacy Village. Cedar is a great corridor, and its greatness could extend a lot further east than it already does if only Legacy Village weren't recessed allll the way behind the parking. Eton interacts more with Chagrin, but it's nothing more than an elaborate strip mall.

 

They look EXACTLY alike to me.  Be it Atlantic Center in Atlanta, the Florida Mall in Orlando, The shops at Atlas Park, or Clarendeon Market commons!  Garbage!

How is it garbage? Especially Atlantic Station, which is just five blocks off the Downtown Connector, and Clarendon Garbage which is TOD??

 

Should all cities like more like Hough or something?

How is it garbage? Especially Atlantic Station, which is just five blocks off the Downtown Connector, and Clarendon Garbage which is TOD??

 

Should all cities like more like Hough or something?

 

Have you been to any of those centers and really looked at what they are?

Been to Atlantic Station. It's a very similar site to Steelyard Commons. Except Atlanta stopped doing strip malls for stuff like this:

 

 

The "station" in the name is admittedly a bit misleading, but the development provides really good shuttle service to the nearby MARTA station. Runs like every 5 minutes or something. I don't see what is wrong with the development.

 

Admittedly haven't been as far south in Arlington as Clarendon, but I already know I don't like Rosslyn because it's too heavy on towers and office buildings and very little street scene. I imagine Clarendon to be a newer, improved version, but I could be wrong. Retail couldn't be awful for that though.

 

I think if your an urbanist who prides yourself on beating up new-urbanism you're probably spending more effort tilting on windmills than actually helping anything.

hts just to back you up - you are correct. i for one whould feel differently if cracker was in midtown. i admit it.

 

however, i would feel a lot better if the city and county got together and redeveloped a large new park across a few blocks of midtown somewhere. its a dream of mine that one day there is a nice fancy mini boston common type park between downtown and university circle to rebuild around. at the very least it would take the heat off what to do with public square and the lakefront.

 

oh sorry...betty crocker park mall yayyy.

 

As a native Clevelander who has lived in Clarendon in Arlington, VA for the past six years let me sing its praises for a minute.  Including it in a discussion of lifestyle centers is a little misplaced because it is a true neighborhood.  It was considered Arlington's downtown a century ago when it was connected to DC by trolleys.  As such it still has many decades-old buildings and storefronts that are directly on the street and are the backbone of a truely walkable neighborhood.  As cars dominated the twentieth century the neighborhood was less urbanized and some blocks were turned into surface lots.  It is on one of these former lots that the Marketplace Commons lifestyle center was built, but I will tell you that it is well integrated into the older parts of the neighborhood.  And considering that the site of Marketplace Commons was previously a parking lot, I consider the development an infinite improvement.  Yes, the stores there are almost entirely national chains (Apple, Pottery Barn, etc.), but they are well appreciated by the young, well educated yuppies that live in the area and they compliment - not compete with - the neighborhood stores.  Overall, Clarendon is a balanced mix of offices, apartments, shopping, and restaurants, with a DC Metro station at its center.  So when you refer to it as garbage I don't know what you're talking about.  I would love to move back to Cleveland some day and a neighborhood such as Clarendon, including the small portion which is a lifestyle center, would be attractive to young urbanites.

Some of you will never get it.  Its pointless to even consider "plopping this down in Midtown" or some other partially developed area with various owners.  No project even remotely close to CP would be done because you'd have to deal with dozens of hold out property owners, contaminated soils issues, various zoning hurdles...

 

The reason Crocker Park and Legacy Village were done where they are is because it was essentially green field development, a single owner (in the case of Legacy Village, not exactly sure about Crocker)

 

And what you don't get is that some of us don't need these things to be built 80 arces all at once. I'd like to see them get built the way most neighborhoods get built, or rebuilt -- one building at a time. Geis built his development one big building at a time. His started with 200,000+ square feet of offices on a contaminated parcel in Midtown.

 

Just west of there, down and across Euclid, is the 14-acre city-owned property that is cleared, cleaned and waiting for development. It was to be a psychiatric hospital. But now it can be something else. Maybe something better? How about a Penn Square development that is has some elements of a small lifestyle center but with a light industrial component to it? Throw in some incubators and subsidized housing so its a mix of stable businesses and those trying to grow and stabilize.

 

And just west of that is another development -- the Agora complex that Geis is redeveloping -- and can grow to be something more.

 

So while this may not be a lifestyle center, perhaps it can be something much better: an organic, naturally evolving, messy, gritty, awesome mix of urbanity.

 

Crocker Park is a sexy model of botox, silicone and plastic surgery. She's nice to look at. But she ain't real. I'll take real.

i don't know how sexy one exit east of a walmart can be...!

 

i don't know how sexy one exit east of a walmart can be...!

 

 

Yeah that whole Ohio City/West Side Market place is terrible! ;)

i don't know how sexy one exit east of a walmart can be...!

 

Soooo.... Ontario to Gateway?

 

edit: ahh darn, CO beat me to it.. never let a good Steelyard Commons bashing moment go to waste!  :whip:

Does anyone actually know any residents out there?  I just wonder what it's like to give your friends directions to your place:  "Yeah like just park behind the Cheesecake Factory so you don't have to pay a meter then I'm across the street, right above the Gap.  Apartment 214.  We'll totally have a great time!"

 

Grady Sizemore lived above some of the stores a few years back, above the old Z-Gallery, my friend lived down the hall.  Scott Fujita bought a free standing condo in the back of the development

Been to Atlantic Station. It's a very similar site to Steelyard Commons. Except Atlanta stopped doing strip malls for stuff like this:

 

 

The "station" in the name is admittedly a bit misleading, but the development provides really good shuttle service to the nearby MARTA station. Runs like every 5 minutes or something. I don't see what is wrong with the development.

 

Admittedly haven't been as far south in Arlington as Clarendon, but I already know I don't like Rosslyn because it's too heavy on towers and office buildings and very little street scene. I imagine Clarendon to be a newer, improved version, but I could be wrong. Retail couldn't be awful for that though.

 

I think if your an urbanist who prides yourself on beating up new-urbanism you're probably spending more effort tilting on windmills than actually helping anything.

 

 

Honey, AS is a strip mall built, like cracker park and legacy village, to EMULATE an urban experience.  It's crap.  Instead of bringing business to Peachtree, or trying to fix Underground ATL, they've decided to let them further deteriorate. 

 

Also just so were clear not all the buildings shown in that picture are apart of AS, they are adjacent properties.  Also three of those building are half empty and the poor quality housing built in AS wont last long.  People in Atanta even know the housing is crap.  It's been public panned in the papers.

 

My Shaker Square was built to last, will any of these "lifestyle centers" be around 90 years after construction?

As a native Clevelander who has lived in Clarendon in Arlington, VA for the past six years let me sing its praises for a minute.  Including it in a discussion of lifestyle centers is a little misplaced because it is a true neighborhood.  It was considered Arlington's downtown a century ago when it was connected to DC by trolleys.  As such it still has many decades-old buildings and storefronts that are directly on the street and are the backbone of a truely walkable neighborhood.  As cars dominated the twentieth century the neighborhood was less urbanized and some blocks were turned into surface lots.  It is on one of these former lots that the Marketplace Commons lifestyle center was built, but I will tell you that it is well integrated into the older parts of the neighborhood.  And considering that the site of Marketplace Commons was previously a parking lot, I consider the development an infinite improvement.  Yes, the stores there are almost entirely national chains (Apple, Pottery Barn, etc.), but they are well appreciated by the young, well educated yuppies that live in the area and they compliment - not compete with - the neighborhood stores.  Overall, Clarendon is a balanced mix of offices, apartments, shopping, and restaurants, with a DC Metro station at its center.  So when you refer to it as garbage I don't know what you're talking about.  I would love to move back to Cleveland some day and a neighborhood such as Clarendon, including the small portion which is a lifestyle center, would be attractive to young urbanites.

 

I have a question, how old are you?  Most people in their 20s and in some case early 30s have no clue what urban shopping is.  They see it on TV, but have never experienced it.

 

I'll give you that Clarendon is a bit better than other centers as it's not surrounded by parking, but that wasn't the case when built.

 

Other than that, its still a center surrounded by cheap housing trying to emulate an urban experience.

As a native Clevelander who has lived in Clarendon in Arlington, VA for the past six years let me sing its praises for a minute.  Including it in a discussion of lifestyle centers is a little misplaced because it is a true neighborhood.  It was considered Arlington's downtown a century ago when it was connected to DC by trolleys.  As such it still has many decades-old buildings and storefronts that are directly on the street and are the backbone of a truely walkable neighborhood.  As cars dominated the twentieth century the neighborhood was less urbanized and some blocks were turned into surface lots.  It is on one of these former lots that the Marketplace Commons lifestyle center was built, but I will tell you that it is well integrated into the older parts of the neighborhood.  And considering that the site of Marketplace Commons was previously a parking lot, I consider the development an infinite improvement.  Yes, the stores there are almost entirely national chains (Apple, Pottery Barn, etc.), but they are well appreciated by the young, well educated yuppies that live in the area and they compliment - not compete with - the neighborhood stores.  Overall, Clarendon is a balanced mix of offices, apartments, shopping, and restaurants, with a DC Metro station at its center.  So when you refer to it as garbage I don't know what you're talking about.  I would love to move back to Cleveland some day and a neighborhood such as Clarendon, including the small portion which is a lifestyle center, would be attractive to young urbanites.

 

I have a question, how old are you?  Most people in their 20s and in some case early 30s have no clue what urban shopping is.  They see it on TV, but have never experienced it.

 

I'll give you that Clarendon is a bit better than other centers as it's not surrounded by parking, but that wasn't the case when built.

 

Other than that, its still a center surrounded by cheap housing trying to emulate an urban experience.

 

You don't have to look far in DC to find urban shopping...Georgetown.

As a native Clevelander who has lived in Clarendon in Arlington, VA for the past six years let me sing its praises for a minute.  Including it in a discussion of lifestyle centers is a little misplaced because it is a true neighborhood.  It was considered Arlington's downtown a century ago when it was connected to DC by trolleys.  As such it still has many decades-old buildings and storefronts that are directly on the street and are the backbone of a truely walkable neighborhood.  As cars dominated the twentieth century the neighborhood was less urbanized and some blocks were turned into surface lots.  It is on one of these former lots that the Marketplace Commons lifestyle center was built, but I will tell you that it is well integrated into the older parts of the neighborhood.  And considering that the site of Marketplace Commons was previously a parking lot, I consider the development an infinite improvement.  Yes, the stores there are almost entirely national chains (Apple, Pottery Barn, etc.), but they are well appreciated by the young, well educated yuppies that live in the area and they compliment - not compete with - the neighborhood stores.  Overall, Clarendon is a balanced mix of offices, apartments, shopping, and restaurants, with a DC Metro station at its center.  So when you refer to it as garbage I don't know what you're talking about.  I would love to move back to Cleveland some day and a neighborhood such as Clarendon, including the small portion which is a lifestyle center, would be attractive to young urbanites.

 

I have a question, how old are you?  Most people in their 20s and in some case early 30s have no clue what urban shopping is.  They see it on TV, but have never experienced it.

 

I'll give you that Clarendon is a bit better than other centers as it's not surrounded by parking, but that wasn't the case when built.

 

Other than that, its still a center surrounded by cheap housing trying to emulate an urban experience.

 

You don't have to look far in DC to find urban shopping...Georgetown.

Georgetown wasn't always like this.  Remember only Wisconsin was the only street to shop mid 90s., then M street going east was developed.  However, it is DC best use of urban shopping.

^MTS, go back another 10-12 years as far as M is concerned.  I lived in DC in the '84 and M was already a shopping street including the Georgetown mall.

^MTS, go back another 10-12 years as far as M is concerned.  I lived in DC in the '84 and M was already a shopping street including the Georgetown mall.

 

I dont remember that.  M street was a hot mess.    I just remember you could walk from dupont to Georgetown and see NOTHING until you got to Wisconsin. Yes there were small local stores etc. Georgetown mall didn't open all at one, I remember it opened in little sections.  IIRC it big name to fame was it held the first Abercrombie store, when AF ere doing the FIRST rebranding.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't remember M street being all that.

i don't know how sexy one exit east of a walmart can be...!

 

Soooo.... Ontario to Gateway?

 

edit: ahh darn, CO beat me to it.. never let a good Steelyard Commons bashing moment go to waste!  :whip:

 

i was hoping to leave steelyard out of this altogether -- fail lol!

 

Been to Atlantic Station. It's a very similar site to Steelyard Commons. Except Atlanta stopped doing strip malls for stuff like this:

 

 

The "station" in the name is admittedly a bit misleading, but the development provides really good shuttle service to the nearby MARTA station. Runs like every 5 minutes or something. I don't see what is wrong with the development.

 

Admittedly haven't been as far south in Arlington as Clarendon, but I already know I don't like Rosslyn because it's too heavy on towers and office buildings and very little street scene. I imagine Clarendon to be a newer, improved version, but I could be wrong. Retail couldn't be awful for that though.

 

I think if your an urbanist who prides yourself on beating up new-urbanism you're probably spending more effort tilting on windmills than actually helping anything.

 

 

Honey, AS is a strip mall built, like cracker park and legacy village, to EMULATE an urban experience.  It's crap.  Instead of bringing business to Peachtree, or trying to fix Underground ATL, they've decided to let them further deteriorate. 

 

Also just so were clear not all the buildings shown in that picture are apart of AS, they are adjacent properties.  Also three of those building are half empty and the poor quality housing built in AS wont last long.  People in Atanta even know the housing is crap.  It's been public panned in the papers.

 

My Shaker Square was built to last, will any of these "lifestyle centers" be around 90 years after construction?

 

I agree on Legacy, but I disagree on Crocker.

 

I also can't tell if your argument is on urban design or construction durability. Or if Atlantic Station looked at yo man the wrong way.

 

They should have brought back the Underground Atlanta? First of all, Five Points is bombed out, second of all underground development is great urban design...not to mention the developers didn't do anything to Underground to make it go downhill, it just did on its own. As for Peachtree, there is no available land on Peachtree for a development the size of Atlantic Station (especially with in IKEA) and Peachtree already has an incredible amount of retail including Lennox Square. There's no way that IKEA would pay the premium on land for Buckhead, so it's Atlantic Station in brownfield redevelopment or outside the Perimeter.

 

You're talking to a southerner here, and I know my Atlanta new urbanist developments.

 

And please, how is this a strip mall?

 

It's just in Westlake, not Cleveland. That's all there is to this.

It's just in Westlake, not Cleveland. That's all there is to this.

 

It's more than that.  It's that it is surrounded by woods and wide highways.  There is no tie in to any further urban infrastructure (like First and Main in Hudson).

It's just in Westlake, not Cleveland. That's all there is to this.

 

It's more than that.  It's that it is surrounded by woods and wide highways.  There is no tie in to any further urban infrastructure (like First and Main in Hudson).

 

I do wish First and Main interacted better with the old downtown. Its separated and feels like its own entity, not a part of the older section.

I do wish First and Main interacted better with the old downtown. Its separated and feels like its own entity, not a part of the older section.

 

It's more connected than Crocker Park or Legacy Village is. At least First and Main is an extension of the existing street grid. Any attempts to incorporate it better would probably have required the demolition of a store to cut a new street through to SR91.

 

CP or LV are like new urbanist campgrounds set up off the main roads where strip mall developers Stark and Schneider set up shop like cult leaders to experiment in this strange new world of neo-traditionalist design. Stark even calls himself the "poet developer" and called CP his "new urbanist experiment" for the big bite he wanted to take downtown. Sadly, he over-bit and cut off his own tongue. I haven't heard much from the guy since.

As a native Clevelander who has lived in Clarendon in Arlington, VA for the past six years let me sing its praises for a minute.  Including it in a discussion of lifestyle centers is a little misplaced because it is a true neighborhood.  It was considered Arlington's downtown a century ago when it was connected to DC by trolleys.  As such it still has many decades-old buildings and storefronts that are directly on the street and are the backbone of a truely walkable neighborhood.  As cars dominated the twentieth century the neighborhood was less urbanized and some blocks were turned into surface lots.  It is on one of these former lots that the Marketplace Commons lifestyle center was built, but I will tell you that it is well integrated into the older parts of the neighborhood.  And considering that the site of Marketplace Commons was previously a parking lot, I consider the development an infinite improvement.  Yes, the stores there are almost entirely national chains (Apple, Pottery Barn, etc.), but they are well appreciated by the young, well educated yuppies that live in the area and they compliment - not compete with - the neighborhood stores.  Overall, Clarendon is a balanced mix of offices, apartments, shopping, and restaurants, with a DC Metro station at its center.  So when you refer to it as garbage I don't know what you're talking about.  I would love to move back to Cleveland some day and a neighborhood such as Clarendon, including the small portion which is a lifestyle center, would be attractive to young urbanites.

 

I have a question, how old are you?  Most people in their 20s and in some case early 30s have no clue what urban shopping is.  They see it on TV, but have never experienced it.

 

I'll give you that Clarendon is a bit better than other centers as it's not surrounded by parking, but that wasn't the case when built.

 

Other than that, its still a center surrounded by cheap housing trying to emulate an urban experience.

 

MTS, to answer your question, I'm in my 30's, but I don't know what that has to do with the merits of Clarendon as a neighborhood.  And yes, I have a clue what urban shopping is, I do it on a daily basis.

 

I have to disagree with you on your statement that housing in the area is cheap.  It's neither cheap in quality nor cost.  The apartment building that is part of the Market Commons development has studios starting at $1750, which I don't consider cheap.

http://themarketcommonclarendon.com/

Many other buildings in the area are comparably priced.  Part of the cost is due to being in the DC area, but there is a premium over normal prices for living in mixed use, transit oriented neighborhoods like Clarendon.  This reflects the demand to live in such neighborhoods, indicating that more should be constructed with such attributes.

 

I don't know what your personal experience with Clarendon is, but perhaps a reassessment of your opinion is in order.  I think there's an interesting debate to be had as to whether stand-alone neighborhoods like Crocker Park that are built in suburbs are good urbanism, but relating that to Clarendon Market Common is inapplicable because it was built into a century-old street grid in a dense, multi-use neighborhood.