I have a serious question, one that goes without trying to sound like a smarta$$.  I am curious what Dan Gilbert has done for Cleveland and downtown Cleveland like he claims?  I mean besides the casino, which is obvious, what else has he done for the city?  I hate when he lumps Cleveland into the same sentence as Detroit; "he loves Midwest cities and how he helps cities like Detroit and Cleveland".  Cleveland has so much more to offer than Detroit, and I feel like as big of a public figure as he is, Cleveland is just downgraded to Detroit's level to many people in the business world.  What he has done in Detroit is great!  I mean it is above and beyond what I would expect anyone to do for a city, but since he is doing great deeds for Detroit in which is most likely America's most distraught city, it's pretty amazing.  He has bought so many vacant downtown buildings, brought over 6,000 people downtown from the suburbs to work, and emphasized living downtown.  He put up a casino in Cleveland and acts like he created an entirely new mixed-use entertainment district.  Has he bought a highrise downtown that I didn't know about?  Besides the casino, is he bringing thousands of professional jobs downtown?  You bought the lot behind Tower City, how long is that going to be a lot?  If this were Detroit we would already see some type of development happening there.  I feel like this guy really has done nothing for Cleveland besides a casino, but puts on a good PR show to make it seem like he is Cleveland's newest investor in its construction boom.

 

Please enlighten me on what this guy has done for Cleveland besides the casino and the promise of an NBA championship....

Quicken Loans moved employees downtown to fill vacant space in the old post office.  He brought Bizdom to Cleveland.  He has invested in the Cavs, spending money on players when it was prudent and made sense to do so.  I believe he also was the driving force behind purchasing a hotel adjacent to the casino and the subsequent upgrades that will now take place.

 

I would say he has done a lot.  Ultimately heis still a businessman and didn't make his fortunes by taking unnecessary risks or spending foolishly.  I think he also has just begun, so give him some time to make more of an impact. Rome was not built in a day.

Between the team and casino phase 1, he is in for, what, $700MM? Tower City land and Quicken office and hotel adds another $100MM..?  I will take being a #2 like that....

 

Plus he is a CLE cheerleader, regardless of how we rate to him vs Detroit... Do we have a local deep pockets guy who has done as much?

I can understand the sentiment. It bugs me about his developments here too. Most of his money here is tied up in entertainment projects.

 

Now I don't view that entirely in a negative light, because there is some spinoff development. But let's be serious. His investments in Detroit are very different in scope and purpose than those in Cleveland.

Because Detroit is where his roots are, and I respect him for that. It's why he bought another five downtown buildings, as reported on Tuesday:

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20121218/BUSINESS/121218067/dan-gilbert-buys-up-5-downtown-detroit-buildings?odyssey=nav%7Chead

 

That brings his total to 2.6 million square feet of space in Detroit, where he grew up, lives and works. Frankly, I'm glad he does anything here in Cleveland. That's a bonus in my book.

 

If you want to be disappointed at anyone, maybe you could be disappointed at the Ratners and Forest City Enterprises. Even so, FCE still owns more than 2 million square feet of buildings in downtown Cleveland. They are a publicly traded company. So just making profits isn't enough. Shareholders demand maximum profits, which sends FCE off to develop in high-growth, high-rent markets.

 

And if you want to argue FCE has fumbled the ball here in Cleveland, I can argue that others have picked it up including Geis, Schochet, Maron and, yes, Gilbert. So have lots of smaller developers and investors. Schochet alone owns more than 2.8 million square feet of buildings in downtown Cleveland -- more than what Gilbert owns in his hometown of Detroit. Not bad for a 26-year-old. And Schochet isn't even from here, although he has fallen in love with the city.

 

After years of stagnation, there is finally some new money in this town. And lots of it. Like I say, Gilbert's money and attention is a bonus. Take it.

He bought the Cavs, when LeBron was here, invested in the former Gund, and in the fan experience. 

From this his popularity soared.  He then established an office for Quicken loans here, also opened one of his Bizdom U here as here as well. 

He cultivated a public persona around here that he was savior/genius.  He used that persona to get the casino passed. 

 

In the 3 years since that has passed, he opened the casino and bought a couple of buildings near the casino.  Some to tear down for parking, the other was the Ritz to keep as a hotel.  Per the casino language he could not build a new casino hotel. 

 

Has he done anything else?

 

Compare him to the Masons who have developed W. 25th, E. 4th, the Clinic area, and Uptown.  Or Michael Symon, or the guy from AmTrust Financial who is moving his entire company to downtown.

 

He is a good businessman who has some very high profile businesses in Cleveland.  He is no villain, but he isn't a saint either. 

You mean the Marons.

Sports franchises and casinos print money. If he didn't get involved somebody else would have. The difference between Gilbert and the other guys in town, like MRN and K&D, is that he has huge businesses to fill the properties he buys. Honestly, it's just sour grapes he won't do something similar here. I won't lie. I'm jealous.

 

To KJP's other point, the Ratners and FCE should be ashamed of themselves.

 

To KJP's other point, the Ratners and FCE should be ashamed of themselves.

 

AMEN!!

Ironically I just read this article last night.  His passion/loyalty for his home (& adopted home) are what really endear him to me.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20121218/dan-gilbert/

i agree with op. i might change my tune if and when he builds out the casino. not holding my breath because i don't see that happening. i always figured once the "temporary" casino was up and running in the higbees space that would be it. gilbert does not have the money. he was only worth like $750M when he bought the cavs, although he is worth well over a B now. well, let me rephrase that, he does have the $, but the loose change will go to downtown detroit. casino projections have come in well under expectations will be the excuse. its a shame and except for unreasonably raising our redevelopment hopes i dont even blame him. that riverfront behind tower city and scranton should always have been forest city's baby. all in all i think gilbert is kind of a wash so far - no savior, no villain.

 

 

To KJP's other point, the Ratners and FCE should be ashamed of themselves.

 

AMEN!!

 

That's not what I said. What I said was that if someone wants to criticize a real estate firm/investor, then the FCE/Ratner is an easier and more vulnerable target than Gilbert. That being said, FCE is a publicly traded company. Just making profits isn't enough at a publicly traded company. You have to maximize profits, and that's difficult to do by investing in Cleveland. So while I don't like it, I do understand why FCE/Ratner isn't spending much if any money here.

To KJP's other point, the Ratners and FCE should be ashamed of themselves.

 

AMEN!!

 

That's not what I said. What I said was that if someone wants to criticize a real estate firm/investor, then the FCE/Ratner is an easier and more vulnerable target than Gilbert. That being said, FCE is a publicly traded company. Just making profits isn't enough at a publicly traded company. You have to maximize profits, and that's difficult to do by investing in Cleveland. So while I don't like it, I do understand why FCE/Ratner isn't spending much if any money here.

 

They haven't tried is the point!  Those cheap apartments they build else could be built here!

and unfortunately we also understand why the city does not call fce out, among others to be fair, and use eminent domain to if need be to give other people a crack at their properties. maybe even gilbert would be interested in some of their properties.

 

They haven't tried is the point!  Those cheap apartments they build else could be built here!

 

Nor will they, except if an apartment building is subsidized like what is proposed atop a publicly funded foundation, otherwise known as the West Side Transit Center.

 

Anyway..... Dan Gilbert doesn't work at FCE. So moving on.

i agree with op. i might change my tune if and when he builds out the casino. not holding my breath because i don't see that happening. i always figured once the "temporary" casino was up and running in the higbees space that would be it. gilbert does not have the money. he was only worth like $750M when he bought the cavs, although he is worth well over a B now. well, let me rephrase that, he does have the $, but the loose change will go to downtown detroit. casino projections have come in well under expectations will be the excuse. its a shame and except for unreasonably raising our redevelopment hopes i dont even blame him. that riverfront behind tower city and scranton should always have been forest city's baby. all in all i think gilbert is kind of a wash so far - no savior, no villain.

 

 

 

IIRC The initial projections for casino revenue were quite high when compared to comperable casinos

i would let Gilbert's involvement play out before judging.  He has a vision and even with his money, visions dont play out in just 5 years.  I heard him on the radio once, and he has a passion for urban development and he loves midwest rust belt cities. He was quoted by saying downtowns need to connect and there cant be spotty areas where people want to be that dont connect.  I think between the Q, Casino, Hotels, he will continue to work at it.  I am anxious to see if and when anything will happen with Tower City.

i would let Gilbert's involvement play out before judging.  He has a vision and even with his money, visions dont play out in just 5 years.  I heard him on the radio once, and he has a passion for urban development and he loves midwest rust belt cities. He was quoted by saying downtowns need to connect and there cant be spotty areas where people want to be that dont connect.  I think between the Q, Casino, Hotels, he will continue to work at it.  I am anxious to see if and when anything will happen with Tower City.

As am I.

 

I'm of the faith, that if anything happens at Tower City it will be reactionary.  FCE will not lead on this project.  They will only upgrade, if and when the Casino 2nd phase goes into construction. 

Ironically I just read this article last night.  His passion/loyalty for his home (& adopted home) are what really endear him to me.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20121218/dan-gilbert/

 

That Sports Illustrated article was awful.  Another "Cleveland is miserable, cloudy, gray, and desperate" article.  The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit.  He just repeated all of the cliches from the last 40 years.  Sloppy and lazy.

Crain's talks to Gilbert's real estate partner about downtown [Detroit] building purchases

 

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20121219/NEWS/121219850

 

How much renovation work needs to be done to get the buildings suitable for what you plan to do with them?

 

Each of them is different. The 1521 Broadway building, we do not have to do much at all — that's the one with Small Plates on the first floor. It has four single-floor residential tenants, and that one is in really good shape, just a couple cleanup-type items. We have to upgrade the elevator and things like that.

 

The buildings over on Woodward, those need a lot of work on the upper floors. They've been neglected for many years and really need a tremendous amount of investment.

Ironically I just read this article last night.  His passion/loyalty for his home (& adopted home) are what really endear him to me.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20121218/dan-gilbert/

 

That Sports Illustrated article was awful.  Another "Cleveland is miserable, cloudy, gray, and desperate" article.  The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit.  He just repeated all of the cliches from the last 40 years.  Sloppy and lazy.

 

I'm going to slightly disagree he stated fact, but it could have been written differently.  However, I will state this, "The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit" is 100% wrong. I'll leave it at that.

  The former Stanley Block

i agree with op. i might change my tune if and when he builds out the casino. not holding my breath because i don't see that happening. i always figured once the "temporary" casino was up and running in the higbees space that would be it. gilbert does not have the money. he was only worth like $750M when he bought the cavs, although he is worth well over a B now. well, let me rephrase that, he does have the $, but the loose change will go to downtown detroit. casino projections have come in well under expectations will be the excuse. its a shame and except for unreasonably raising our redevelopment hopes i dont even blame him. that riverfront behind tower city and scranton should always have been forest city's baby. all in all i think gilbert is kind of a wash so far - no savior, no villain.

 

 

 

 

IIRC The initial projections for casino revenue were quite high when compared to comperable casinos

 

so i have heard - so where new casino??

 

but seriously, yeah we should give it a chance.

 

after all as we see above he is still busy tearing up *useless* old bldgs for parking at the moment.

 

i agree with op. i might change my tune if and when he builds out the casino. not holding my breath because i don't see that happening. i always figured once the "temporary" casino was up and running in the higbees space that would be it. gilbert does not have the money. he was only worth like $750M when he bought the cavs, although he is worth well over a B now. well, let me rephrase that, he does have the $, but the loose change will go to downtown detroit. casino projections have come in well under expectations will be the excuse. its a shame and except for unreasonably raising our redevelopment hopes i dont even blame him. that riverfront behind tower city and scranton should always have been forest city's baby. all in all i think gilbert is kind of a wash so far - no savior, no villain.

 

 

 

 

IIRC The initial projections for casino revenue were quite high when compared to comperable casinos

 

so i have heard - so where new casino??

 

but seriously, yeah we should give it a chance.

 

after all as we see above he is still busy tearing up *useless* old bldgs for parking at the moment.

 

 

Of course it would be high.  As I said, why not wait for a year to see overall attendance.  The Casino opened at the height of summer so more people would be using it.  Now as the novelty has warn off, its up to the Horseshoe to market the casino.

 

Punch, where are these comparisons?

People get hung up about what Gilbert's motives or his reputation is supposed to be.... I could care less about that.  I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth...What's important is that we have one of the (too few) power brokers who's aggressively developing, bringing excitement and entertainment to downtown Cleveland, a long with a few thousand new jobs.  And let's face it, the Cavs were going nowhere fast under Gordon Gund, and Gilbert has took the team and the building and raised them to the level of 1st class even if we don't agree with their every move... Has he been a bit heavy handed (the LeBron letter, the Columbia Building/Stanley block; non-interest in CVSR that could run multi-train car excursions to his casino)?  Sure he has, but the absence of a pair of brass ones wouldn't have propelled him to where he is... And the fact that he is a Detroiter/non-Clevelander is actually refreshing because there's long been and old-school Ratner-esque lethargy among home-grown Cleveland developers --- the Marons, K&D and a few others, excluded.

Because Detroit is where his roots are, and I respect him for that. It's why he bought another five downtown buildings, as reported on Tuesday:

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20121218/BUSINESS/121218067/dan-gilbert-buys-up-5-downtown-detroit-buildings?odyssey=nav%7Chead

 

That brings his total to 2.6 million square feet of space in Detroit, where he grew up, lives and works. Frankly, I'm glad he does anything here in Cleveland. That's a bonus in my book.

 

If you want to be disappointed at anyone, maybe you could be disappointed at the Ratners and Forest City Enterprises. Even so, FCE still owns more than 2 million square feet of buildings in downtown Cleveland. They are a publicly traded company. So just making profits isn't enough. Shareholders demand maximum profits, which sends FCE off to develop in high-growth, high-rent markets.

 

And if you want to argue FCE has fumbled the ball here in Cleveland, I can argue that others have picked it up including Geis, Schochet, Maron and, yes, Gilbert. So have lots of smaller developers and investors. Schochet alone owns more than 2.8 million square feet of buildings in downtown Cleveland -- more than what Gilbert owns in his hometown of Detroit. Not bad for a 26-year-old. And Schochet isn't even from here, although he has fallen in love with the city.

 

After years of stagnation, there is finally some new money in this town. And lots of it. Like I say, Gilbert's money and attention is a bonus. Take it.

 

No doubt about investing in his hometown.  I think what he is doing in Detroit is great.  If I ever had his money, I would at least invest something into downtown Youngstown. 

 

I have followed Gilbert a lot.  The guy is clearly a business man and he didn't make his fortunes by being dumb.  But what I am saying is, don't put Cleveland in the same basket as Detroit and make it seem like you're doing Cleveland all this good.  You built a casino... good for him.  I am not the type of person to gamble away my money, but I do see the casino as a benefit.  But as someone who loves the urban environment like most on here, I want to see a different kind of development take shape in this area of Dan Gilbert's that he promises so much change in.  He just bought five more buildings in downtown Detroit, but in the last couple years he/his company (Rock Ventures) has torn down two historic buildings in Cleveland.  If that happened in Detroit, he would be lighting up a storm and everyone in Detroit would hear about it.  Yes, the Stanley Block was in bad shape, but really with the Columbia building?  That's done and over with, but there is a huge surface lot right in front of the Q and he couldn't build a garage there?  Now we watch the Stanley Block go down (already is gone) and for what?  To watch some open pit form to add in benches so casino-goers can enjoy a smoke?  Maybe add some trees to that and call it a pocket park.  I am sure that would be better than what the casino has planned for it... a bunch of nothing.  I have read several articles in the last few days and Rock Ventures does nothing but praise the demolition, but lists no plans for what they're going to do with the space.  They wanted that all along, just like with the Columbia building.  That's what cities with progressive urban approaches do these days, right?

 

I am not making Gilbert out to be some bad guy.  When it comes to urban-minded people, he certainly will get my praises.  My biggest issue with him is that he shouldn't be acting like he is Cleveland's hero when all he has done was build a casino and add some jobs downtown.  Bizdom is a joint venture in both Detroit and Cleveland, which is fine, but not solely Cleveland.  Also, didn't he build a state of the art practice facility for the Cavs out in the burbs?  If he owned the Pistons, he would be building them a new arena downtown.  I am all for new jobs in the city, but he is all PR at this point.  His company saves buildings in Detroit, and destroys them in Cleveland.  And as far as Forest City goes, they are pathetic.  I can't tell you how many times I get frustrated when I hear they are planning to redevelop Pittsburgh's South Shore and spend billions in other cities.  There are plenty of other people at fault, too.  Just like the owners of the Stanley block, it isn't the casinos fault they are completely incompetent.  But I am talking about Dan Gilbert.  This guy plasters "Detroit and Cleveland this" but in all reality, it's just Detroit.  Until we start seeing some type of mixed-use development behind Tower City (certainly wishful thinking) or I would even be happy with phase two of the casino which I doubt will ever happen... Dan Gilbert can be proud and say he is actively investing in Detroit, but take pride in the fact that you own the Cavaliers and opened a casino downtown... that's about it.  Don't act like Cleveland is now on the same page as Detroit when it comes to his investments.  That is what irks me.  Sorry if I seem a little out of touch with his great efforts to do Cleveland good, but I fail to see his true passion for Cleveland outside of being a business man.  Him being a business man is perfectly fine, but don't paint the same picture for Cleveland as you do with Detroit.

 

I am just tired of Cleveland settling.  I feel like Clevelanders just settle and call it a day.  People think Gilbert is some type of hero.  I was in South Florida the night he made the decision, I watched as Floridians from Miami to Gainesville all of the sudden were LeBron James fans.  But Gilbert made himself (and Cleveland) look bad the day he wrote the letter.  He instantly put Cleveland to the forefront of sporting and other obvious jokes.  Somehow he is classified as some savior to Cleveland and I just don't see it.  Call me crazy.  Cleveland is no Oklahoma City or Phoenix; Cleveland brings a lot to the table in plenty of different departments.  I don't want Cleveland to settle for casinos and parking garages that take the place of viable historic buildings which can be turned into residential in a downtown that is looking left and right to development buildings for residents.  I don't want Cleveland to settle for some guy who claims he is doing all this great when the true good guys like Maron don't get the credit they deserve.  They're doing a lot more for the city than Gilbert.  Like I said, I just created this post to figure out Dan Gilbert better.  Be the owner of the Cavs and promote the casino as much as you can, but when you bring a more diverse selection of developments to downtown, then you will have my attention.

Ironically I just read this article last night.  His passion/loyalty for his home (& adopted home) are what really endear him to me.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20121218/dan-gilbert/

 

That Sports Illustrated article was awful.  Another "Cleveland is miserable, cloudy, gray, and desperate" article.  The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit.  He just repeated all of the cliches from the last 40 years.  Sloppy and lazy.

 

I'm going to slightly disagree he stated fact, but it could have been written differently.  However, I will state this, "The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit" is 100% wrong. I'll leave it at that.

 

Do you know the guy who wrote the article?  If he had done his homework, I have a feeling it would have been a very different article.  In all I feel it was lazy writing, taking the easy potshots.

Ironically I just read this article last night.  His passion/loyalty for his home (& adopted home) are what really endear him to me.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20121218/dan-gilbert/

 

That Sports Illustrated article was awful.  Another "Cleveland is miserable, cloudy, gray, and desperate" article.  The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit.  He just repeated all of the cliches from the last 40 years.  Sloppy and lazy.

 

I'm going to slightly disagree he stated fact, but it could have been written differently.  However, I will state this, "The author obviously did no research on the city or came to visit" is 100% wrong. I'll leave it at that.

 

Do you know the guy who wrote the article?  If he had done his homework, I have a feeling it would have been a very different article.  In all I feel it was lazy writing, taking the easy potshots.

 

That article was my inspiration for this thread.  All the negative connotations that is oh so Cleveland really got me thinking...

^I was directing that comment to MTS because he seems to think that my assertion that the author never visited the city or did research is 100% false.  That's why I asked him if he knew the author.  I'm just tired of reading the same old "worn out Rustbelt" cliches.

^I was directing that comment to MTS because he seems to think that my assertion that the author never visited the city or did research is 100% false.  That's why I asked him if he knew the author.  I'm just tired of reading the same old "worn out Rustbelt" cliches.

 

Oh no, you're good.  I just didn't notice someone had posted that article.  That's the exact article that made me want to create this thread.

 

-Dan Gilbert

-Praise for Cleveland just like he does Detroit, but where does it show?

-Put down to the same level as Detroit by the public

-etc

 

I will say, without going into too much detail from the original topic, I think most of Cleveland's bad image comes from its sports teams.  Detroit is well portrayed as some downtrodden city with high crime, abandoned buildings, bad economy, etc.  Meanwhile, Cleveland gets portrayed as some blue collar hard working town that has horrible luck and even worse sports teams.  The most negativity that I see on a national level comes from former Clevelanders who bi*** just to bi***.  But with good ole Danny boy, Cleveland is just seen as another Detroit i.e. the article and it kind of resonates in my first post in this thread about that.

I am not making Gilbert out to be some bad guy.  When it comes to urban-minded people, he certainly will get my praises.  My biggest issue with him is that he shouldn't be acting like he is Cleveland's hero when all he has done was build a casino and add some jobs downtown.

 

When I first read your opening piece, my takeaway was that you were upset that Gilbert was focusing too much on Detroit and not enough on Cleveland. And that we should demand more of his attention and investment here, and thus less of those things for Detroit. So my reaction was that Gilbert is always going to focus more on Detroit than Cleveland because that's his hometown, and that I'm happy that he's chosen Cleveland as one of his places to invest his money.

 

Now, I'm not happy what he did to the Columbia and then to the Stanley (his company bought of it and reportedly blocked others' overtures to buy and rehab it). So the guy doesn't get 100% of my love. But I would argue that he has done more good here than bad. Do I want him to do more? Sure. I want everyone to do more. But I don't expect it from outside investors because Cleveland is not yet in a position to make such demands. We were able to make demands in the past because of our geographic location as a logistics hub for ore, steel, coal, oil and more (although that was in a time of laissez-faire when progressivism was a strange concept). We haven't discovered 21st century resources and goods or positioned ourselves to capitalize on them. Until we do and can get an angle on them, we're just one of many hungry cities that investors can play against each other.

MissinOhio, as an urban fan (and an even bigger Cleveland homer-fan) ANYBODY who invests heavily to seriously enhance the urban character of Cleveland is a "hero" -- Gilbert is one of several who I've mentioned.

 

In this holiday season of "it's A Wonderful Life" you may want to look at Gilbert as George Bailey: what would Cleveland be like if Gilbert never lived (or at least, never came here)?  You'd certainly have an empty, hulking former department store on Publis Square (and a dark, largely lifeless Public Sq. around Tower City); many fewer offices in the largely empty buildings around Public Square and, perhaps, the Cavs playing in another city.

MissinOhio, as an urban fan (and an even bigger Cleveland homer-fan) ANYBODY who invests heavily to seriously enhance the urban character of Cleveland is a "hero" -- Gilbert is one of several who I've mentioned.

 

In this holiday season of "it's A Wonderful Life" you may want to look at Gilbert as George Bailey: what would Cleveland be like if Gilbert never lived (or at least, never came here)?  You'd certainly have an empty, hulking former department store on Publis Square (and a dark, largely lifeless Public Sq. around Tower City); many fewer offices in the largely empty buildings around Public Square and, perhaps, the Cavs playing in another city.

 

I think this is the OP's point. People have this view of Gilbert that comes off at times exaggerated. The Cavs were 2 years into a 7 year career with Lebron James. They weren't going anywhere.

 

The casinos were going up regardless. I'll give Gilbert credit for pushing to put the casino downtown.

I disagree.  I'm not talking about immediately, but I believe the Cavs would have been more vulnerable to move.  Remember, Gund/Paxson botched the Boozer deal that robbed us a more viable shot at the title -- we have not yet had a power forward of Boozer's capacity since.  The organization was clearly stagnant, heading downward when Gund decided to sell.  Had he not sold, esp to Gilbert, there's every reaason to believe that LeBron would not have re-upped for the 4 years that he did.  Gilbert came in and fired Paul Silas (and a number of Clevelanders jumped on Gilbert as too brash).  Not only did Silas fail to take LeBron teams to the playoffs twice (I count the 2nd year when he was fired too, because Silas was here for most of that 2nd season and charted its direction), there's also many who believe it was Silas' attitude (toward Boozer) that led him to bolt for Utah.

 

Gilbert brought in the attitude that this franchise would strive for excellence and that money would be no object.  Gilbert lit a fire that got Mike Brown and Danny Ferry; cobbled an elite team that went to the Cavs' first championship. After that, we won 66 and 61 games in consecutive regular seasons.  Few in their right minds blame Gilbert for LeBron's leaving although, reasonably, they could have blamed Gund given the lethargic direction the Gund-owned club was headed in.... Gilbert was (and is) aggressive; that has permeated the organization and this, in itself, has galvanized fan interest -- even to this day, 3 seasons after "The Decision" and with a horrible (record-wise) team.  Gund had a good run in the 80s and 90s, but was running this team into ground.  A 3rd playoff-less LeBron team would have not only turned off fans but LeBron as well and, once again, probably would have led to his leaving earlier than he did.   

 

The team is solidly here now and is highly respected in its operation.  In Gilbert, for once, we have a Cleveland sports owner with goo-gobbs of cash and who is bullish on building a championship team -- all too rare for NEO... Despite the horrible record (which I tend to blame more on Byron Scott than I do either Chris Grant or Gilbert), people are still willing to stick with this team.  And with Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters (the leading scoring backcourt in the NBA), Tyler Zeller and Tristan Thompson (yes, the kid's a work in progres, but he's solid, works very hard and improving considerably lately) there's reason to have faith.

 

I'm not abolutely saying that the Cavs would have left, but it could have been a possibility had Dan Gilbert not bought this team.

The Gund family owned the Cavs, the same family as the Gund foundation.

They would have never sold unless there were an iron clad agreement that they could not move.

 

 

The Gund family owned the Cavs, the same family as the Gund foundation.

They would have never sold unless there were an iron clad agreement that they could not move.

 

Yeah, and I'd like to have seen the out clauses in that agreement.  These were the same Gunds who took Cleveland's only NHL team, the re-constituted Barons, merged them with the old Minnesota North Stars, and moved the team out of Cleveland to the Twin Cities.

^That is a good point.  The barons were before my time (which I rarely get to say anymore).

Dude bought GreekTown

 

Dan Gilbert-owned company to acquire controlling interest in Greektown Casino

by:  J.C. Reindl

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20130116/NEWS01/130116070/Dan-Gilbert-Greektown-casino-detroit?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

 

A Dan Gilbert-owned company announced today its pending deal to buy controlling interest in the corporation that owns the Greektown Casino and hotel in downtown Detroit.

 

The investment by Rock Gaming, still subject to approval from the Michigan Gaming Control Board, would expand the billionaire businessman’s fast-growing gambling empire to Michigan. Greektown Casino is owned by a consortium of investors known as Greektown Superholdings.

 

Gilbert, the founder of Quicken Loans and majority owner of the NBA Cleveland Cavaliers basketball team, already owns three gambling sites in Ohio through Rock Gaming in addition to a horseracing track in Kentucky. The venture plans to open Baltimore’s first casino in 2014.

 

Gilbert has purchased 15 buildings to date in downtown Detroit to further his visions for “Detroit 2.0” – a lively live-work-play district based around entrepreneurial companies in the digital economy.

 

“Our plans are in the early phases, however, we envision significant investment in the Greektown Casino-Hotel as well as the enhancement and growth of the existing entertainment district,” Gilbert said in a statement. “We see this unique area extending to Campus Martius and along Woodward Avenue building on the positive momentum already occurring in the heart of downtown Detroit.”

 

For Gilbert, the Greektown opportunity is “the perfect intersection of our focus on investment in downtown and our gaming business,” said Jennifer Kulczycki, a Rock Gaming spokeswoman

 

 

From what I have heard Cleveland's casino is real lackluster compared to most other casinos in Great Lakes region.  Has the casino even started any spin-off development yet.... you know, besides tearing down the Stanley?  Do we know what is going to go in there?  Or is that just going to sit empty for years.  Phase 2 of the casino???? 

 

Last news about that was 8 months ago:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dan_gilberts_plans_for_a_casin.html

 

Guess that will be a parking lot for a few more decades.

 

This whole casino thing is becoming more and more of a joke.  And now the guy buys a casino in Detroit.  How many more buildings are you going to rehab in that sh**hole of Deriot, yet let your joke of a company in Rock Ventures destroy the Gateway District.  I am all for saving buildings and history, but it seems like there is the opposite idea of change versus Detroit and Cleveland with this company.  I am sorry, but this guy is a fool who is just playing Cleveland, and any investment Clevelanders laud and praise it like it is a godsend.  I am too passionate about Cleveland, and I certainly think Cleveland DESERVES so much better.

With that said, I live closer to Pittsburgh than Cleveland and I have heard people much prefer Pittsburgh's casino to Cleveland's, and avid gamblers in the Youngstown area haven't spoken highly of the Horseshoe.  I know a couple who went to Cleveland's casino once, and now continue heading down to Wheeling.

From what I have heard Cleveland's casino is real lackluster compared to most other casinos in Great Lakes region.  Has the casino even started any spin-off development yet.... you know, besides tearing down the Stanley?  Do we know what is going to go in there?  Or is that just going to sit empty for years.  Phase 2 of the casino? :? 

 

Last news about that was 8 months ago:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dan_gilberts_plans_for_a_casin.html

 

Guess that will be a parking lot for a few more decades.

 

This whole casino thing is becoming more and more of a joke.  And now the guy buys a casino in Detroit.  How many more buildings are you going to rehab in that sh**hole of Deriot, yet let your joke of a company in Rock Ventures destroy the Gateway District.  I am all for saving buildings and history, but it seems like there is the opposite idea of change versus Detroit and Cleveland with this company.  I am sorry, but this guy is a fool who is just playing Cleveland, and any investment Clevelanders laud and praise it like it is a godsend.  I am too passionate about Cleveland, and I certainly think Cleveland DESERVES so much better.

 

The article posted above was written before phase one of the CLE casino even opened!  I'm disappointed the historic block was demolished, but is that really Gilbert and his company's fault, considering how long those building deteriorated, or is he just the convenient scapegoat?  Why not be upset with those that let the buildings rot and with CLE/Cuyahoga County for not enforcing redevelopment of those buildings?

 

Spin off development?  What spin off development was mention or listed? Has the Casino being opened help pump money and non monetary spending?

 

Anyone who is upset about Cleveland and prefers Wheeling or Pittsburgh isn't the target audience for Cleveland.

 

Have you been to our casino?

I fail to understand how Gilbert is a "fool" who is just playing Cleveland, MissinOhio.  No question he has been heavy-handed in his approach at times and has destroyed a couple landmark buildings and (imho) foolishly continues to fight for that defacing skybridge over Prospect Ontario.  But I don't see the big deal in his investing in the Greektown Casino and hotel.  Greektown has been open for over a decade, and the hotel has been up for 4-5 years.  Detroit is Gilbert's hometown.  I've heard criticism of the Horseshoe (ie, the table minimums are high) but lackluster isn't one of them. 

 

Besides, if you been following the development, the Horseshoe is unique in the nation in that is the only casino developed in the heart of a major city and was designed to interact with its surroundings (restaurant, retail and live entertaiment) rather than exist as the island the way most casinos do.  I really don't get your anger here.

From what I have heard Cleveland's casino is real lackluster compared to most other casinos in Great Lakes region.  Has the casino even started any spin-off development yet.... you know, besides tearing down the Stanley?  Do we know what is going to go in there?  Or is that just going to sit empty for years.  Phase 2 of the casino? :? 

 

Last news about that was 8 months ago:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dan_gilberts_plans_for_a_casin.html

 

Guess that will be a parking lot for a few more decades.

 

This whole casino thing is becoming more and more of a joke.  And now the guy buys a casino in Detroit.  How many more buildings are you going to rehab in that sh**hole of Deriot, yet let your joke of a company in Rock Ventures destroy the Gateway District.  I am all for saving buildings and history, but it seems like there is the opposite idea of change versus Detroit and Cleveland with this company.  I am sorry, but this guy is a fool who is just playing Cleveland, and any investment Clevelanders laud and praise it like it is a godsend.  I am too passionate about Cleveland, and I certainly think Cleveland DESERVES so much better.

 

The article posted above was written before phase one of the CLE casino even opened!  I'm disappointed the historic block was demolished, but is that really Gilbert and his company's fault, considering how long those building deteriorated, or is he just the convenient scapegoat?  Why not be upset with those that let the buildings rot and with CLE/Cuyahoga County for not enforcing redevelopment of those buildings?

 

Spin off development?  What spin off development was mention or listed? Has the Casino being opened help pump money and non monetary spending?

 

Anyone who is upset about Cleveland and prefers Wheeling or Pittsburgh isn't the target audience for Cleveland.

 

Have you been to our casino?

 

Exactly!  It was written before the first casino even opened, and yet here we sit 8 months into this "temporary" casino being opened and haven't heard a word about the second phase.  I don't care if you drop the casino plan and stick with the Higbee, at least let us know you still have plans with the property.

 

I am just as upset with the former owners of the building, but there was no effort at all to save it from Rock Ventures.  Tear it down and add nothing.  So much for adding vitality to downtown.  He's no scapegoat, but the whole reason this thread was created was because the guy praises that he is helping Cleveland just as much as Detroit.  That's just not the case, and now Cleveland is seen as some dead rust belt city just like Detroit every time this guy opens his mouth.  Sorry, I'm not buying into this guys' hype that he is trying to do Cleveland good.

 

Spin-off development in more restaurants and retail...  Is the Mayfield building (name?) on Prospect still completely empty on that side?  How about those buildings next to the new garage by Harry Buffalo's.  Those still empty or home to shoe shops?  Guess the casino is living up to what casinos do... keep people inside, get in their cars, and go back to Westlake.  Am I not remembering correctly, but wasn't this casino suppose to bring some sort of life to this section of downtown that didn't exist before?

 

Cleveland should fight for as many dollars as they can.  Youngstown is a metro area of over 500,000, and like always, people are preferring Pittsburgh to Cleveland here in almost every category.  I grew up trying to defend Cleveland in a predominately Pittsburgh supporting area.  There was so much hype down here for the Horseshoe, and many are disappointed with it.  I would hope Cleveland would fight for as much of an "audience" as possible.

 

I do not go to casinos.  I work too hard to blow my money away at casinos.  But I have been outside the new casino, and Pittsburgh's as well.  At least Pittsburgh's is connected to the trails and parks along the North Shore....

 

 

I fail to understand how Gilbert is a "fool" who is just playing Cleveland, MissinOhio.  No question he has been heavy-handed in his approach at times and has destroyed a couple landmark buildings and (imho) foolishly continues to fight for that defacing skybridge over Prospect Ontario.  But I don't see the big deal in his investing in the Greektown Casino and hotel.  Greektown has been open for over a decade, and the hotel has been up for 4-5 years.  Detroit is Gilbert's hometown.  I've heard criticism of the Horseshoe (ie, the table minimums are high) but lackluster isn't one of them. 

 

Besides, if you been following the development, the Horseshoe is unique in the nation in that is the only casino developed in the heart of a major city and was designed to interact with its surroundings (restaurant, retail and live entertaiment) rather than exist as the island the way most casinos do.  I really don't get your anger here.

 

I am not making a big deal of him investing in Detroit.  I think it is great, it's his hometown.  That in itself is a great story, especially considering Detroit's problems at current.  I don't know, but I was in Little Italy this past Saturday, and I didn't hear a lot of good reviews on the casino.

 

That is what I want to know.  How well is it interacting with its surroundings?  I was on East 4th back in October on a Friday and didn't notice any difference in street activity from my time at CSU.  That is a serious question:  Is it making a big difference in activity in the area?

 

I am not angry.  I am disappointed.  Cleveland shouldn't have to settle just because there is new development coming along.  I feel there was so much hype about this casino, and it just isn't paying off like it was advertised.  It was this new "savior" for downtown, instead of just another piece to the puzzle.  In Cincinnati they are praising the streetcar, OTR, Washington Park, Fountain Square, The Banks, etc.  Cleveland... a new convention center and the casino.  In the general picture, I just think Cleveland settles too much.  That's just my opinion, though. 

I feel, and this is just from my perspective, that there are noticeably more people using downtown for entertainment than I remember.  There actually are some restaurants going in down there, though it is hard to tell if this is casino spinoff or e4th spinoff or just a stronger downtown in general. but Red, chipotle, gumbo place, soulfood place, other stuff that I probably am missing are due in the area soon.

 

I do think, however, that there should be more transparency with the plans for phase II.  It isn't just a business; it is a business which was voted on by the people and heavily regulated by the state government.  There should be a level of public discourse that wouldn't necessarily exist with a normal company.

^MTS is correct, you can't blame Gilbert for the money-grubbing shenanigans of the Stanley Block's owners who let it deteriorate.  Also, the building was shoe-horned in a dead zone of downtown even before Horseshoe came to be -- which is probably why the owners let it sit there and rot for decades.  I hate to lose history, but this was a small building who's impact, had it survived, would have been minimal. 

 

Again, I'm wondering what you're reading.  In case you hadn't noticed, Horseshoe just added 24 new gaming tables due to demand -- Cleveland's is one of the few casinos that generates more money from tables as opposed to slots... I've been in Pittsburgh's casino.  It's pretty run-of-the-mill if you ask me, and it has generated very little if any development around it.  It sits off at the far edge of Northside downtown.  Temporary, Phase I, permanent, whatever you want to call the Higbees casino, I'll take it over 3-Rivers anyday in terms of the vitality and impact it is giving downtown Cleveland over the latter's in Pittsburgh.

^^^ Dude, chill.  8 month is NOT a long time when it comes to the complex, expensive world of development.  I wouldn't have expected either large amounts of spin off or phase II to have happened yet.  I'm also not sure how you account for the new restaurants that have opened, or are opening in the surrounding area.  Are they direct spin off?

I dont think the Casino is hurting surrounding business though. It also brought life to a dead building. Public Square looks much nicer at night with all the lights on the building. Even if it brings no spin off, I still think its a great plus for the city. Its an another amenity to residents and tourists. I have gone in there several times and all but once walked out above. Nothing major, usually $10 to $20 and I end up spending my winnings at a restaurant for lunch.

 

It gives visitors from out of town one more thing to do. Who knows, maybe traveling sports fans will be more likely to choose a Cleveland game so they can gamble a little. Traveling businessmen might stop in. Instead of hanging out in the hotel, maybe parents leave their children in the room and go to the Casino at night for a few hours. I know of professional sport players hanging out there in the high stakes area.

 

And I dont think most view it a savior. We have the Casino yes, but we also have the new med-mart/convention center like you mentioned, which im mostly excited to see how the mall surface turns out. Flats East Bank is a major project and phase 2 should certainly add a lot of life downtown, and the waterfront line will reopen with the opening of phase 1. Several large apartment building conversions, Uptown in University Circle, with phase 1 finishing up and phase 2 starting up. Cleveland State residential expansion, and other housing projects throughout the city such as Hazel8. New hotel developments, West 25th street, etc. These things are all working to change Cleveland for the better. So just because the Casino is not the cure for all, there is no reason to hate it. Its one more piece to the puzzle as you stated before.

From what I have heard Cleveland's casino is real lackluster compared to most other casinos in Great Lakes region.  Has the casino even started any spin-off development yet.... you know, besides tearing down the Stanley?  Do we know what is going to go in there?  Or is that just going to sit empty for years.  Phase 2 of the casino? :? 

 

Last news about that was 8 months ago:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dan_gilberts_plans_for_a_casin.html

 

Guess that will be a parking lot for a few more decades.

 

This whole casino thing is becoming more and more of a joke.  And now the guy buys a casino in Detroit.  How many more buildings are you going to rehab in that sh**hole of Deriot, yet let your joke of a company in Rock Ventures destroy the Gateway District.  I am all for saving buildings and history, but it seems like there is the opposite idea of change versus Detroit and Cleveland with this company.  I am sorry, but this guy is a fool who is just playing Cleveland, and any investment Clevelanders laud and praise it like it is a godsend.  I am too passionate about Cleveland, and I certainly think Cleveland DESERVES so much better.

 

The article posted above was written before phase one of the CLE casino even opened!  I'm disappointed the historic block was demolished, but is that really Gilbert and his company's fault, considering how long those building deteriorated, or is he just the convenient scapegoat?  Why not be upset with those that let the buildings rot and with CLE/Cuyahoga County for not enforcing redevelopment of those buildings?

 

Spin off development?  What spin off development was mention or listed? Has the Casino being opened help pump money and non monetary spending?

 

Anyone who is upset about Cleveland and prefers Wheeling or Pittsburgh isn't the target audience for Cleveland.

 

Have you been to our casino?

 

Exactly!  It was written before the first casino even opened, and yet here we sit 8 months into this "temporary" casino being opened and haven't heard a word about the second phase.  I don't care if you drop the casino plan and stick with the Higbee, at least let us know you still have plans with the property.

 

I am just as upset with the former owners of the building, but there was no effort at all to save it from Rock Ventures.  Tear it down and add nothing.  So much for adding vitality to downtown.  He's no scapegoat, but the whole reason this thread was created was because the guy praises that he is helping Cleveland just as much as Detroit.  That's just not the case, and now Cleveland is seen as some dead rust belt city just like Detroit every time this guy opens his mouth.  Sorry, I'm not buying into this guys' hype that he is trying to do Cleveland good.

 

Spin-off development in more restaurants and retail...  Is the Mayfield building (name?) on Prospect still completely empty on that side?  How about those buildings next to the new garage by Harry Buffalo's.  Those still empty or home to shoe shops?  Guess the casino is living up to what casinos do... keep people inside, get in their cars, and go back to Westlake.  Am I not remembering correctly, but wasn't this casino suppose to bring some sort of life to this section of downtown that didn't exist before?

 

Cleveland should fight for as many dollars as they can.  Youngstown is a metro area of over 500,000, and like always, people are preferring Pittsburgh to Cleveland here in almost every category.  I grew up trying to defend Cleveland in a predominately Pittsburgh supporting area.  There was so much hype down here for the Horseshoe, and many are disappointed with it.  I would hope Cleveland would fight for as much of an "audience" as possible.

 

I do not go to casinos.  I work too hard to blow my money away at casinos.  But I have been outside the new casino, and Pittsburgh's as well.  At least Pittsburgh's is connected to the trails and parks along the North Shore....

 

 

 

Honey, you need to step away from the monitor.  Phase 1 is not a "temporary" casino. So with that said, you're already wrong.  What have you seen or read to indicate that phase two would not happen??  SHOW ME!!  Just because we hear or see nothing, that doesn't mean there isn't work being done. In a lot of these negotiations confidentiality agreements are in place, since things are being bid on, so people cannot public speak.  Honesty, if I was him I would have saved the faced and done something different, most likely a hotel.  I know this isn't popular but I feel Gilbert's company had no obligation to save those buildings.

 

Spin off development?  Twisted Kilt for one, in addition it's been reported (in the PD) that hotel rooms and restaurant booking are up with many being booked by the casino. The fill in of East 4th continues.  The casino hasn't been open a year so there is limited market research. How much do you realistically expect to change in 8 months?

 

You don't go to casinos, but you're using others word as gospel on UrbanOhio?  You know that's a dangerous thing to do.  You don't have spend money to visit the casino.  And Cleveland's casino is the Heart of Downtown Cleveland connect to more than just trails and parks, there is no comparison.  These are two different types of casino's with two different audiences, so do not make this a direct comparison.

Blaming/chastising Gilbert for the lack of spin off development by Public Square is like blaming Cosgrove for the lack of retail development by the Clinic or blamimg the Gunds and Jacobs for the Gateway District being pretty dull. Frankly, I think there is far less a correlation between jobs/major projects and spin off development than we'd like to think. Otherwise, we'd have the Magnificent Mile on Euclid by the hospitals.