It was also reported that the cost for this would be closer to $60k... not $130k. I say do it.

 

 

Where was it reported, at the meeting? I took some flak for saying the $130,000 was way too high and that this should cost closer to $60,000 on the previous page here.

http://www.wvxu.org/post/cincinnati-council-delays-public-restroom-vote

It was also reported that the cost for this would be closer to $60k... not $130k. I say do it.

 

 

Where was it reported, at the meeting? I took some flak for saying the $130,000 was way too high and that this should cost closer to $60,000 on the previous page here.

 

You have been vindicated! Seelbach was also discussing this on WLW today. He stated that he never wanted a $130,000 toilet and is looking for the most cost effective option. He also discussed the inadequacy of Findlay's current bathroom situation.

Just caught the meeting. The current estimate is $70k installed but the committee sent it back to the administration for lower prices & more options. The Windbag somehow turned it into a civil rights issue but he also talked about there being no public restrooms at Washington Park. I thought 3CDC promised some homeless advocates that there would be public restrooms there.

Young & Quinlivan did not single out DAAP, they just suggested local design & engineering students.

Not sure what Winburn was talking about as Washington Park does have public restrooms. I'm not familiar with it's hours though.

Not sure what Winburn was talking about as Washington Park does have public restrooms. I'm not familiar with it's hours though.

 

The park is closed from 11 p.m. to 6 a.m., so I could only assume the restrooms are closed as well.

Perhaps because you might learn something in the process. But I guess that is not why you are in school?

 

There are plenty more effective ways for me to learn how to be an architect than to design a glorified Port-o-Let, especially when I'm spending tens of thousands of dollars for the opportunity.

 

A typical graduate elective studio for M.Arch. students at DAAP -- one I took last year -- involved helping design a health clinic in rural Tanzania, on a site with no electricity, sanitation, or running water, using materials that could be sourced locally and assembled by locals with very little training in building construction. And then one or two students from our group had the opportunity to spend their co-op on site in Tanzania to help supervise construction. IMO, such a studio has far more educational value than anything offered by this project.

 

Society has far more important design-related challenges to address than to redesign a modular public toilet that can simply be ordered from a catalog. The suggestion to use DAAP students for this particular project seems to have very little to do with any inherent educational value, and more to do with trying to skim a few dollars off the price by using unpaid labor. I'm a firm believer in learning design by taking on real-world projects that have a clear humanitarian focus, but your attitude seems to be more along the lines of, "Wow, this project is too expensive. Let's just get some DAAP kids to design it for free." Such an attitude is demeaning and insulting to the real issues that get addressed within the various DAAP programs, and it's insulting to practicing architects and designers who expect to get fairly compensated for their work.

 

 

 

While I agree that it can seem demeaning to design a toilet, and it pales in comparison to some other design opportunities, I will admit that one of my most enjoyable studio experiences at DAAP was a kiosk design studio.  Spending so much time in the macro scale, I personally gained a lot working at the micro for that project.  I get your frustration to the "let the DAAP students solve the problem" phrase that gets thrown around a lot on this board, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this project as a design studio, if it were to happen.

CincyInTheKnow...

 

Glad you have some spunk as the lead character on the Mary Tyler Moore show said and dispute my opinion. But being overly defensive on the compenstion point tells me you are still green behind the ears. Compensation is earned, plain and simple. The example you cited of the project in Tanzania likely would not have existed without US government financial aid. A good project yes, but not something which stood on its own.

 

This particular subject happens to be concerned whether the citizens of Cincinnati should be availed of a nice, sanitary, and clean public toilet. I happen to believe they should be. At the same time I believe they are being ripped off in price. You say there are many available from catalogs.

 

So instead of being indignant when I suggest a new, more economical design, as a project for DAAP, then please come forth with your already available catalog designs and present them. I am sure the citizens of Cincinnati would appreciate that information.

 

 

^You called out the wrong user.

CincyInTheKnow...

 

I'm guessing you meant me, and not CincyInTheKnow. Sort of hurts your credibility when you can't even call out the right person, bub.

 

Compensation is earned, plain and simple.

 

Guess that explains why the Kardashians have more money than God, while teachers make peanuts and soldiers have to use food stamps to feed their families.

 

The example you cited of the project in Tanzania likely would not have existed without US government financial aid. A good project yes, but not something which stood on its own.

 

The project in Tanzania is supported mostly by private donations, grants, and the efforts of volunteers. Who says it needs to "stand on its own" (whatever that means), besides sociopaths who jerk off to Ayn Rand novels in their mothers' suburban basements?

 

This particular subject happens to be concerned whether the citizens of Cincinnati should be availed of a nice, sanitary, and clean public toilet. I happen to believe they should be. At the same time I believe they are being ripped off in price. You say there are many available from catalogs.

 

So instead of being indignant when I suggest a new, more economical design, as a project for DAAP, then please come forth with your already available catalog designs and present them. I am sure the citizens of Cincinnati would appreciate that information.

 

Nobody is saying the people of Cincinnati don't need clean public toilets. Ample precedents for freestanding public toilets exist in many other cities, and the City of Cincinnati is doing its doing its due diligence by researching those precedents and choosing the most cost-effective option. They don't need my help, and I've got more important things to do with my time than to do the city's precedent research for it. DAAP exists to educate the next generation of architects and designers, not to provide free labor on civic projects because some internet troll arbitrarily thinks a project costs too much without offering a shred of evidence.

DAAP exists to educate the next generation of architects and designers, not to provide free labor on civic projects because some internet troll arbitrarily thinks a project costs too much without offering a shred of evidence.

 

The initial cost cited by the Enquirer has been called too high by pretty much everyone including Chris Seelbach. The suggestion that there should be a local design competition (in which DAAP students may freely choose whether to participate) is not an inherently bad idea. However, I get why you would feel patronized by the idea that "get some DAAP students to do it" would be some kind of solution for any design problem.

tells me you are still green behind the ears.

 

Do you try to be a jerk, or does it come naturally?

CincyInTheKnow...

 

DAAP exists to educate the next generation of architects and designers, not to provide free labor on civic projects because some internet troll arbitrarily thinks a project costs too much without offering a shred of evidence.

 

How is providing "free labor on civic projects" different than "educating the next generation of architects and designers"?  You can't tell me that DAAP students wouldn't learn anything by designing these restrooms.  Using DAAP students to help design civic projects not only allows students to gain experience on a variety of types of projects, but it also gives a local sense of pride knowing that UC students are working to improve our city.  I would think that DAAP students would be proud to design the first freestanding public restroom in Cincinnati because of the possibility that the design could end up being used in any and/or all future freestanding restrooms.  More local input and design can help ensure the project's success in its intended environment. As in, freestanding restrooms in Cincinnati would work out better for the city if they were designed in and for Cincinnati.

 

Furthermore, a large portion of the design is civil engineering/urban planning related as in utility hook-ups, streetscaping, etc.

Actually, no. Its primarily architectural or industrial design. Engineering students aren't reinventing how bathrooms work, and there's no additional streetscaping planning needed by planners. The only contributions planners could make is recommending locations.

^^ Welcome to UO, el double u!

Well some professional got paid to design it, so it's not like the idea of designing a public sidewalk restroom that is safe, secure, cheap, easily made, etc. is a bad project to work on.  I think the frustration is more so the idea, "oh that's expensive, lets have DAAP students do it".  It's just a bizarre and likely annoying attitude.  No one goes- damn, that heart surgery at Christ Hospital is expensive, maybe there are people at Cincinnati State who can do it for cheaper! (I realize Cincinnati State probably doesn't have a pre-med program but it sounds better that way) At the same time, students in pre-med or whatever should get practice in all kinds of surgeries.

Well some professional got paid to design it, so it's not like the idea of designing a public sidewalk restroom that is safe, secure, cheap, easily made, etc. is a bad project to work on.  I think the frustration is more so the idea, "oh that's expensive, lets have DAAP students do it".  It's just a bizarre and likely annoying attitude.  No one goes- damn, that heart surgery at Christ Hospital is expensive, maybe there are people at Cincinnati State who can do it for cheaper! (I realize Cincinnati State probably doesn't have a pre-med program but it sounds better that way) At the same time, students in pre-med or whatever should get practice in all kinds of surgeries.

 

Exactly, it feels like a demeaning of the importance of professional design.  "Just get some DAAP kids to work on it or something" feels very dismissive.

 

That being said, I could definitely see an interesting partnership between DAAP and the city working on various public design projects, but that's something that needs to be carefully setup so that all parties involved get real value out of it.  A hastily thrown together project sounds unlikely to produce neither a worthy product nor good educational outcomes.

Hey DAAPers: Flying pig loos.

 

I fail to see how getting DAAP students involved with making free standing public toilets is dismissive towards the students.  My MPL program at USC had us working with the City of Los Angeles and many other local clients for a variety of projects, and I thought it was a great way to get exposure to real world projects, and it also provided some excellent networking opportunities.  Some med school students work at clinics for *gasp* free because they are learning, and not yet trained and certified to practice medicine.  Students at DAAP are also not certified in their respective fields, and they could certainly learn and add to their resumes with this public toilet project.  I think sometimes DAAP students are too impressed with themselves, and forget that they are still just students.

DAAP students have plenty of opportunities for real-life work experience and networking opportunities via the mandatory co-op program, in which students spend anywhere from one-third to half their time at DAAP employed in professional settings, working on real projects, throughout the world. (In case you missed it, the whole reason I was in California for eight months was for a DAAP co-op placement, during which I joined an internationally-acclaimed firm in Santa Monica to help design a new student union complex for the University of California at Berkeley.) Classmates of mine have spent their co-ops at leading firms in New York, London, Amsterdam, China, San Francisco, as well as local firms here in Cincinnati. This is in addition to the numerous studio courses offered within DAAP that tackle real-life design problems, such as my aforementioned Tanzania project. In fact, DAAP is often criticized in architectural circles for being too practice-oriented and not heavy enough on the theoretical side. So anybody who says DAAP architecture students are in need of more "real-life" design experience really doesn't have the slightest clue about DAAP or what goes on there.

 

Any freestanding public toilet is going to have a water closet, a sink, have an interior made of some kind of vandal-resistant material (most likely stainless steel), and be housed within some sort of enclosure with a door. Does the city really need a DAAP student, who is paying tens of thousands of dollars in tuition money to study there, to figure that out for them? The cost of the project is not a design problem, but a money problem. The whole idea of using DAAP students was presented as a way to save money, and had absolutely nothing to do with any inherent design challenge related to the project, because there is none.

 

If the city really wants to do this on the cheap, they can simply call Rumpke and have some port-a-johns placed in a corner of the parking lot. If they want this to be done well, they can hire a professional architect and pony up the cash. If the architect they hire happens to have some DAAP co-op students working on the project team (and is paying them appropriately for it), then so be it.

again, the city council never even mentioned the holy DAAPers.

 

Good grief.

again, the city council never even mentioned the holy DAAPers.

 

I was responding to comments earlier in the thread made by armchair experts, not to anything specifically proposed by city council. Try reading more carefully next time.

 

Good grief.

 

Speaking of armchair experts...

 

 

A "moderator" wouldn't go into sniping back and forth.

 

But hey, please feel free to use your experience co-oping at an internationally recognized firm in California as a hot shoe to nullify any comments that this project cannot be done more cost effectively using student input and design from DAAP. Even if it is not through a co-op program, it is valuable industry experience, even if it is such a "lowly" project as public restrooms. It serves a vital need and function.

I find this interesting as I was given a daap co-op for free.  So much for the architecture market.

DAAP students have plenty of opportunities for real-life work experience and networking opportunities via the mandatory co-op program, in which students spend anywhere from one-third to half their time at DAAP employed in professional settings, working on real projects, throughout the world. (In case you missed it, the whole reason I was in California for eight months was for a DAAP co-op placement, during which I joined an internationally-acclaimed firm in Santa Monica to help design a new student union complex for the University of California at Berkeley.) Classmates of mine have spent their co-ops at leading firms in New York, London, Amsterdam, China, San Francisco, as well as local firms here in Cincinnati. This is in addition to the numerous studio courses offered within DAAP that tackle real-life design problems, such as my aforementioned Tanzania project. In fact, DAAP is often criticized in architectural circles for being too practice-oriented and not heavy enough on the theoretical side. So anybody who says DAAP architecture students are in need of more "real-life" design experience really doesn't have the slightest clue about DAAP or what goes on there.

 

Any freestanding public toilet is going to have a water closet, a sink, have an interior made of some kind of vandal-resistant material (most likely stainless steel), and be housed within some sort of enclosure with a door. Does the city really need a DAAP student, who is paying tens of thousands of dollars in tuition money to study there, to figure that out for them? The cost of the project is not a design problem, but a money problem. The whole idea of using DAAP students was presented as a way to save money, and had absolutely nothing to do with any inherent design challenge related to the project, because there is none.

 

I of course do not know the specific program requirements at UC because I didn't go there, but I do basically know how graduate programs work, again, having just finished my MPL.  The tuition at USC is far more than that of UC, and we still worked on local civic projects (for free) as part of our classes and studios, and I never once heard anyone complain about it.  My final design studio was working with the Skid Row Business Improvement District.  Sexy, huh? The organization obviously was operating on a shoestring budget, and as such, partnered with our studio to serve as consultants on their redevelopment efforts.  One of the major benefits of having a large university in a city is the partnerships and collaborations that can occur with the concentrations of talented people in a given field that universities bring in. It sucks that you're paying money to do work, but such is the nature of academia. As a taxpayer funded public university, I think UC has even more reason and responsibility to give back to the city than USC has to LA.

 

Since you claim that DAAP students already work on real life projects in studios, why couldn't this project be one of them? You could broaden the scope and make it be about more than simply delivering on a functional public toilet.  I mean, when you got contracted to help design the student union at Cal, did you simply propose a box that met the square footage requirements?

 

again, the city council never even mentioned the holy DAAPers.

I was responding to comments earlier in the thread made by armchair experts, not to anything specifically proposed by city council. Try reading more carefully next time.

I was making a general comment to the overall thread, try to be less paranoid next time.

again, the city council never even mentioned the holy DAAPers.

 

Of course not, they just mentioned a $130,000 public toilet. Anyone who thinks that is a reasonable cost should run for public office as you fit right in with the rest of the dimwits. Cut that to somewhere around $60,000 or less and it may be within reason.

 

As for the DAAPers who jumped up and down when I commented maybe they could create a less expensive design specific for Cincinnati, let's see what happens when your co-op employer does an evaluation and decides they can no longer afford to underwrite the cost of supporting higher education which happened to many of my classmates back in the 50s and my son's class in the 70s to the tune they had to go 2 full straight years in school as there were no co-op jobs to be had. I just feel so bad even suggesting you design something for the public good which is so much below your dignity.

 

 

I think everyone in this thread needs to calm down...there's a lot of hostility over a discussion of a public toilet. Everyone stop and take a second to think of how silly that sounds.

Just to make it very clear for those who have no reading comprehension skills: The cost of the toilet is not a design problem, and thus won't be solved by DAAP design students. Putting any plumbing-related structure in the middle of a sidewalk requires excavation, new plumbing and waste connections, and a new foundation. Most of the money will be spent before the structure even goes one inch above ground. If you want some DAAP students to find a way to dress up the enclosure and make it look pretty, fine, but it isn't going to save any money and it probably won't be much of a learning experience for those involved. If you really want to save money, talk to some College of Engineering students and see if they can invent a public toilet for an urban setting that doesn't require any plumbing, electrical, or foundation work.

 

As for how bad it supposedly was during the 50's and 70's, save your breath, because my colleagues and I have seen much worse over the past five years.