I don't know if someone made a thread like this but I didn't see it. My question is what do you think led to the major Decline of Tower City Center? Was it the lack of residential when it opened, the management, or something else? The more important question is can it be salvaged, if so how? Do any of you think that the mall should be repurposed for something else and have the last remaining National/ Popular quality local chains scattered throughout the empty downtown storefronts? (This is my vote)

^The points you raise have been discussed countless times over and over in the Tower City thread itself.  I don't know why it needs a seperate thread so everybody can repeat themselves again but hell, knock yourselves out.

Well this gives a place to talk about those issues instead of getting away from what the tower city thread is about which DEVELOPMENT not Decline. If this gets locked though so be it I thought just making this would give a place to specifically talk about Tower City issues and ways to fix it but hey ok.

While those factors you mentioned had an effect, I think the 2 biggest ones are:

 

A] the continued proliferation of other (competing) malls/shopping centers in NEO.  I'm really interested to know how many national stores/chains/tenants in NEO were exclusive to Tower City, before competitors like South Park, Legacy Village, and Crocker Park opened. Also, other older malls in NEO were competing with Tower City, so they too were also trying to lure then-tower city exclusive tenants

 

B] The Internet. Although it didn't necessarily kill TC in the 90s, the increase of people buying products online certainly decreased the overall amount of shoppers and $ spent in all malls.

 

(I'm going with the assumption that malls are a zero sum game. If a new mall opens, revenues generated there are generally going to be taken from other malls, as those customers go to the new one).

 

(RE: htsguy, I don't mind talking about it again... I'm a youngin' and don't really remember a vibrant tower city.)

It is interesting that we tend to think that retail always needs to be upscale.  I would not measure the success of Tower City by having high ends stores but having viable retail that works.  Here in New York you can walk different parts of the city and you see retail that fits the neighborhood.  I’d say keeping the occupancy up in the mall is most important and that is driven by traffic.  I believe Cleveland is on the right path with new apartments on the horizon, a new convention center, the medical mart, the casino and a few businesses moving back downtown.  I believe the city has very good momentum and Tower City will benefit greatly.

I read an article about tenants leaving tower city back in 2008 and the amount of well known Tenants leaving that year was alarming. The thing that stuck out to me was the general manager Lisa Kreiger saying that tower city will begin pursuing local retailers instead of national ones and I wonder if they have been doing that all this time up until now since that article was written. If they have that explains so many things but shows tower city is shortsighted and isn't interested in the long term dollar that National chains would attract.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/store_lineup_changes_again_at.html

 

From people I've talked to, familiar with the project, there was never enough market demand to support the original mainstream tenants that most people would shop at.  The only reason these retailers had stores in Tower City was because Forest City had enough sway, nationally, in other shopping centers across the country, that they convinced retailers to open stores there initially.  Obviously the demand wasn't there and one by one, they've pretty much all gone and we're left with stores like "LIDZ".

It is interesting that we tend to think that retail always needs to be upscale.  I would not measure the success of Tower City by having high ends stores but having viable retail that works.  Here in New York you can walk different parts of the city and you see retail that fits the neighborhood.  I’d say keeping the occupancy up in the mall is most important and that is driven by traffic.  I believe Cleveland is on the right path with new apartments on the horizon, a new convention center, the medical mart, the casino and a few businesses moving back downtown.  I believe the city has very good momentum and Tower City will benefit greatly.

This is true and I have said before that Tower City doesn't have to get Banana Republic back or Gucci, BUT looking at the middle end store on 4th street (CLE Clothing) and its success. I believe Tower City should be trying to attract middle end stores with shirts that the average joe can afford but would draw a crowd from the other areas outside of Downtown as well and it would be successful. That's the trick though so many malls have the same stores so if Tower City gets the same that wont draw any new traffic because they shoppers have the stores in their own backyard. They have to maybe reach to middle end stores that are popular in other cities but aren't everywhere like Hollister's, Johnston & Murphy, etc.

From people I've talked to, familiar with the project, there was never enough market demand to support the original mainstream tenants that most people would shop at.  The only reason these retailers had stores in Tower City was because Forest City had enough sway, nationally, in other shopping centers across the country, that they convinced retailers to open stores there initially.  Obviously the demand wasn't there and one by one, they've pretty much all gone and we're left with stores like "LIDZ".

Hey!!! it's "Lids" and I take offense to that since I work there :P But aside from being a worker there that is a necessary store that needs to be there, because you have the 3 major sports arenas around it so fans always come down right before the game and buy their favorite teams hats or apparel.The people who buy are also a variant of the lower class to middle class with some sprinkles of rich(ish). You also have the sports players and musicians come down to buy hats. That is necessary now if you said Villa or Glitter I would have agreed as they only draw one demographic.

From people I've talked to, familiar with the project, there was never enough market demand to support the original mainstream tenants that most people would shop at.  The only reason these retailers had stores in Tower City was because Forest City had enough sway, nationally, in other shopping centers across the country, that they convinced retailers to open stores there initially.  Obviously the demand wasn't there and one by one, they've pretty much all gone and we're left with stores like "LIDZ".

Hey!!! it's "Lids" and I take offense to that since I work there :P But aside from being a worker there that is a necessary store that needs to be there, because you have the 3 major sports arenas around it so fans always come down right before the game and buy their favorite teams hats or apparel.  That is necessary now if you said Villa or Glitter I would have agreed as they only draw one demographic.

 

I think we are fortunate to have some of the retail we do inside of Tower City, even though a lot of us would like the storefronts on Euclid... VS, Journeys, Brooks Brothers... There are still some decent national chains in Tower City, and one would think it's only going to get better due to increased traffic from the casino, residents, and visitors downtown. I am not old enough to remember the "hey day" of Tower City to the extent of what stores were there, but i do remember my parents taking us during Christmas time and the place was so packed you couldn't move. I was in Tower City the Saturday before Christmas this year, and i'll be honest... i was impressed with the amount of people there, especially families. Granted, it seemed a lot of people were there to watch the Toy Soldier performance or whatever it was, but it was packed...

 

As a downtown resident, i truly hope it stays a mall, and one day we're able to support street level retail as well. It's an awesome space, really, and couldnt see it as anything other than a mall. Here's how i look at it - At least it's not like a Rolling Acres in Akron, or any of the other failing malls. Although some stores are questionable, there are not a lot of vacant storefronts in the scheme of things. Yes it has declined from its original state, but i think it's stabilized.

This subject has always fascinated me because I never saw Tower City in its heyday. The decline has been talked about over and over and OVER again and I guess at this point it really doesn't matter. After the casino opened there was a flood if rumors that new changes and big name stores were coming but as of yet none of that ever panned out except for some cosmetic changes outside, etc. I'm sure it's been brought up before but i think the casinos influence needs to be observed for a year before retailers will commit. I do wonder though about stories claiming retailers were coming to TC asking for info instead of TC going to them. Now that I go through TC almost everyday I can say its definitely not a dead mall by any means, and I believe the worst is over, so to speak. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what comes about in the future. There's a lot connected to this though, I believe the casino phase 2 and the public square renovation are major impacting factors.

When I looked at the TRUE original plans for tower city which were apartments attached I believe that would have prevented such a large dip in quality of stores lets be real a Switzerland store or Gucci wouldn't have stayed but Banana Republic, Abercrombie, the WB store, Gap probably would still be there if the original plans with apartments were used instead of just a hotel and office space.

This subject has always fascinated me because I never saw Tower City in its heyday. The decline has been talked about over and over and OVER again and I guess at this point it really doesn't matter. After the casino opened there was a flood if rumors that new changes and big name stores were coming but as of yet none of that ever panned out except for some cosmetic changes outside, etc. I'm sure it's been brought up before but i think the casinos influence needs to be observed for a year before retailers will commit. I do wonder though about stories claiming retailers were coming to TC asking for info instead of TC going to them. Now that I go through TC almost everyday I can say its definitely not a dead mall by any means, and I believe the worst is over, so to speak. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what comes about in the future. There's a lot connected to this though, I believe the casino phase 2 and the public square renovation are major impacting factors.

 

As a guy also in my mid-20s, I echo this, I don't remember the opening of TC. But I will say that compared to other cities (with the exception of big ones like NYC, Chicago, etc) Tower City is much healthier than other downtown shopping malls. I did almost all of my Christmas shopping there and got nearly everything I needed. I have asked a lot of people over the years why they don't go down to Tower City to shop, and besides the convenience of going to their nearby suburban hell hole shopping center/mall, they often give me answers that shows the still present racist/segregationist attitudes of many people. They often say Tower City has become too 'ghetto' and that they don't feel safe there. Unfortunately, I think more people hold this view than I would like to believe.

It started off way too high end.  There was not one location in the Cleveland area that could support those stores.  People went down there to see the mall, didn't buy anything, and went home.  Hence, the mall got coined as failing.  Simple as that.  No one wants to lcoate within a failing mall.  It needed to be opened as a middle class shopping mall from the get go.

I don't view Tower City as failed or even in decline.  Sit in the fountain court and observe all of the people as well as occupied stores (compared to other downtown malls like Tower Place in Cincy) and you'll sense it. I think the mall is maintaining based on the shoppers it attracts and hopefully it will be on an upswing along with other developments in the city.

 

As someone pointed out not all retail is upscale.  Yes Tower City was build with the vision of being upscale, but there have always been two competing interest...one being new downtown residents that demand the "better" retail we all wish for but the other group being the transit riders.  Tower City is RTA's largest, central, and most important hub, always has been, and the truth is with the exception of maybe the Shaker lines and a few suburban bus routes, RTA's ridership is largely lower income and they pass through Tower City / Public Square to get to school/work/family/etc.  Tower City may not be filled with upscale shops BUT the shops are mostly filled...and it's filled with a mix of shops that serve the people who pass through...Jones New York, Victoria Secret, Brooks Brothers, as well as dollar stores, urban fashion stores, mall carts and food that represents any budget.  To me Tower City reflects the city's population, and if you take time to sit at fountain court at lunch or rush hour you see it.  I love it because in no other place in the city will you see business suits and sweatpants all mingling in a true urban fashion...shopping, transit connections, heading to offices or hotels, and now gambling. 

 

I say all that to say where most every other downtown mall in mid sized cities has failed, ours has been a success, if success is defined by occupancy and utilization, and not the Gap.  There were issues with unruly teens which I think have been largely fixed, and there are of course improvements that can be made, but I don't see it as decline as more representing the needs of the people who walk through the doors.  Now as more people move downtown, as the Phase 2 casino is built and gamblers travel through TC between the two, then I can see the scale tipping back towards a move even balance between basic stores and more upscale offerings.  But I'm glad TC is doing as well as it is...it's a great asset that given the city's momentum can only get better.

^I'll edit my above post to say Tower City did fail as an upscale mall for the reasons I stated above, but I do not view it as a failed mall or one even in decline today.  I think it was realigned to serve the population that travels through the doors of the place, largely driven by RTA.

As a guy also in my mid-20s, I echo this, I don't remember the opening of TC. But I will say that compared to other cities (with the exception of big ones like NYC, Chicago, etc) Tower City is much healthier than other downtown shopping malls. I did almost all of my Christmas shopping there and got nearly everything I needed. I have asked a lot of people over the years why they don't go down to Tower City to shop, and besides the convenience of going to their nearby suburban hell hole shopping center/mall, they often give me answers that shows the still present racist/segregationist attitudes of many people. They often say Tower City has become too 'ghetto' and that they don't feel safe there. Unfortunately, I think more people hold this view than I would like to believe.

 

"Ghetto" is not a race, it is a subculture, and yes that is a factor to many people.  It's also what killed Randall Park Mall.  A few well publicized incidents, and people will simply choose to shop elsewhere. 

I read an article about tenants leaving tower city back in 2008 and the amount of well known Tenants leaving that year was alarming. The thing that stuck out to me was the general manager Lisa Kreiger saying that tower city will begin pursuing local retailers instead of national ones and I wonder if they have been doing that all this time up until now since that article was written. If they have that explains so many things but shows tower city is shortsighted and isn't interested in the long term dollar that National chains would attract.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/store_lineup_changes_again_at.html

Here's an interesting quote from the owner of a store just opening when the article was written.

 

Chic et Mode owner Raeann Hess said she's convinced Tower City remains a thriving retail center. "It's just a different environment," she said. "I feel like I'm at an airport. . . . The working crowd is still here."

I never thought about it, but I agree it feels that way walking around. The density of people working nearby, combined with RTA on the lower level -- it feels airport-ish. Kind of an odd comparison, I know, since density and rail long predate airports, but that is where our society is now.

I worked at TC in the 90's, and can say that while it is uncomfortable for many to talk about, "ghetto" subculture, or whatever you want to call is was a real factor, and not just the whining of ignorant racist suburbanites, or whatever you want to call them. 

 

I saw a fair number of fights, which often touched off stampedes of unsupervised youths who hear the call go up from across the mall and wanted to watch.  They didn't seem to care who they ran over to get to the drama.

 

The degree and brazenness of shoplifting was stunning.  It was a constant battle, and even with our best efforts, it had to have eaten into our bottom line substantially.  People would try to walk out with entire bags full of merchandise, and if you tried to stop them, it could escalate quite quickly.

 

The homeless often looked to the mall as a place to stay warm, justifiably.  Unfortunately, without access to sanitary facilities, they could drive away customers, especially when they lingered in the more confined portions of the Mall, like in stores.  Removing them was always a delicate business- as I always say, don't mess with someone with nothing to lose.  It could easily become a scene.  Panhandling in the Mall also became an issue. 

 

Then there was the just bizarre, like the guy who got arrested walking through the mall with a bag of snakes.  Or the various other crazies or weirdos, for lack of a better term.

 

All that said, I think Tower City has stabilized.  It is a useful place for certain things, but there is a lot that I can't, or at least wouldn't, get there.

I love that you can walk through there fairly late at night. It's got a really cool ambiance. Plus there's a sense of permanence that most every other shopping mall lacks. I'd love to see how an imbedded residential population would add to the equation. 

as a periodic visitor to tc it appears to be doing ok to me. it almost always seems bustling and walking end to end gives an authentic indoor big city vibe. i think aiming for full occupancy, a middle range and a focus on local shops is a fine plan for now. one thing to keep a careful eye on is the number of teen focused stores -- a few shops are ok, but tc isnt the place to be overly teen focused (not to ignore teens, i would love to see a teen focused harajuku strip of retail, etc spring up in midtown somewhere, wouldn't that be cool?). anyway tc is never going to be like a traditional mall, its too busy as a transit center, so the mall management has to focus on those folks even more than it does destination shoppers. in the near future, this mix will all change yet again as cleveland's downtown population continues to grow.

 

 

Every time I go to Tower City Center with someone from out of town or who doesn't frequent downtown as much as I do, I ask them to count the number of vacant storefronts. My guest looks around for a few seconds. Then the answer I usually get is "I don't see any."

 

Bingo.

Decline?  There are so many variable that led to the change of the mall.  I blame FC for the majority of it, but many of the retailers in the mall are no longer in existence.  So the shift in the way towercity operated changed greatly.  Then  internet shopping took off in 2003/2004

 

So off the top of my head, these are stores that closed, not due to support from the Cleveland market.

 

• Warner Bros Studio Store
  
• The Disney Store (which were sold off, renamed World of Disney, then repurchased a year or two ago when the company that purchased TDS went bankrupt)
  
• Liz Claiborne
  
• Barney's (Bankrupt) - At the time was going to expand up and north in TC.  One of the highest grossing Barneys locations.  The only Barney's store between Cleveland and San Fran.  There was no LA or Seattle store at the time
  
• Country Road Australia [the Australian GAP] (Bankrupt - re emerged as online store Country Road)
  
• Fruddruckers (Corporate bankrupt along with franchisee being duped)
  
• H20+ over expanded like Gucci, then went into financial trouble.  Downsized then purchased by a bank, IIRC.  Some stores are reopening after a brand remake.
  
• Joan & David (family business run into the ground and licensed off like Liz Claiborne)
  
• Walden Books (purchased by Brentanos, then by Kmart, then by Borders.)
  
• Harve Bernard (run into the round, now sold in some Ross Stores)
  
• Politix Small Australian Brand with only US stores in LA, San Fran and Denver.  Cleveland first store on East Coast.  I have no reason why this store failed, only US store is in the Beverly Center.
  
• Fendi (I was very good friends with the manager and the store was badly managed by the franchise owner, who wouldn't listen to anyone)
  
• JB Robinson/Zales/Kay - merged then had a corporate restructure
  
• Record Town - The music industry changed.
  

Contrary to what people believe, various retailers screwed themselves not just at TC, but nationwide.  It just happened that TC had the majority of high end/luxury stores under one roof in NE Ohio.  Beechwood was a ghost town at this time. You could have a basketball game in Saks, it was that empty.a

 

My concern is when TC open, there was no residential support.  Tower City was open until 8PM, 9pm on Thursdays, but after 6:30/7pm the shopping was very light.  In addition, the sell off of Higbee's and the screw up of Neiman Marcus, hurt the momentum.

 

If the original stores (or today's equivalent) open in TC today, I think it would be successful.

 

Granted, it seemed a lot of people were there to watch the Toy Soldier performance or whatever it was, but it was packed...

 

Bob Hruby.  I went to school with him, and graduated with his sisters.  He's really become a sort of 21st Century equivalent of Mr. Jing a Ling it seems.

 

Also, I think you can include "Structure" (lka Express) on that stores list.  I discovered them in Tulsa of all places, and used to buy a lot there. 

Decline?  There are so many variable that led to the change of the mall.  I blame FC for the majority of it, but many of the retailers in the mall are no longer in existence.  So the shift in the way towercity operated changed greatly.  Then  internet shopping took off in 2003/2004

 

So off the top of my head, these are stores that closed, not due to support from the Cleveland market.

 

• Warner Bros Studio Store
  
• The  Store (which were sold off, renamed World of , then repurchased a year or two ago when the company that purchased TDS went bankrupt)
  
• Liz Claiborne
  
• Barney's (Bankrupt) - At the time was going to expand up and north in TC.  One of the highest grossing Barneys locations.  The only Barney's store between Cleveland and San Fran.  There was no LA or Seattle store at the time
  
• Country Road Australia [the Australian GAP] (Bankrupt - re emerged as online store Country Road)
  
• Fruddruckers (Corporate bankrupt along with franchisee being duped)
  
• H20+ over expanded like Gucci, then went into financial trouble.  Downsized then purchased by a bank, IIRC.  Some stores are reopening after a brand remake.
  
• Joan & David (family business run into the ground and licensed off like Liz Claiborne)
  
• Walden Books (purchased by Brentanos, then by Kmart, then by Borders.)
  
• Harve Bernard (run into the round, now sold in some Ross Stores)
  
• Politix Small Australian Brand with only US stores in LA, San Fran and Denver.  Cleveland first store on East Coast.  I have no reason why this store failed, only US store is in the Beverly Center.
  
• Fendi (I was very good friends with the manager and the store was badly managed by the franchise owner, who wouldn't listen to anyone)
  
• JB Robinson/Zales/Kay - merged then had a corporate restructure
  
• Record Town - The music industry changed.
  

Contrary to what people believe, various retailers screwed themselves not just at TC, but nationwide.  It just happened that TC had the majority of high end/luxury stores under one roof in NE Ohio.  Beechwood was a ghost town at this time. You could have a basketball game in Saks, it was that empty.a

 

My concern is when TC open, there was no residential support.  Tower City was open until 8PM, 9pm on Thursdays, but after 6:30/7pm the shopping was very light.  In addition, the sell off of Higbee's and the screw up of Neiman Marcus, hurt the momentum.

 

If the original stores (or today's equivalent) open in TC today, I think it would be successful.

Wow thank you for the info that really leaves me wondering "what could have been" especially with Barney's that would have been great.

It just happened that TC had the majority of high end/luxury stores under one roof in NE Ohio. 

This stands out to me, do you think FC tried to hit a home run maybe too early or attracted too many luxury brands instead of creating a balance between luxury and middle end? I read on a forum not sure of it was this one or not that people didn't really shop they just wanted to look in amazement at what was there. Do you think that was a blunder or misstep on FC's part from the beginning?

It just happened that TC had the majority of high end/luxury stores under one roof in NE Ohio. 

This stands out to me, do you think FC tried to hit a home run maybe too early or attracted too many luxury brands instead of creating a balance between luxury and middle end? I read on a forum not sure of it was this one or not that people didn't really shop they just wanted to look in amazement at what was there. Do you think that was a blunder or misstep on FC's part from the beginning?

 

Now looking back, I think FC, tried to kill Beachwood and the Galleria, with a "by any means necessary" approach.  Then it backfired on two levels.  TC took all the retail off of city streets, which made DT Cleveland appear empty although there were thousand of people in TC or taking the shopping shuttle between TC and the Galleria.

 

Mondays, Thursday, and weekends, Downtown was packed.  TC has great commercials and advertising.  The Gays were all in.  There was something for everyone.

 

However, Higbees being gutted by those hillbillies in Arkansas and the Nieman Marcus debacle killed TCs momentum and the 2nd Phase. 

 

Downtown, and the close in neighborhoods of Tremont, Ohio City, Flats(east or west), WHD, Gateway, Payne Sterling or Central areas were not as stable as they are today.

 

The more residents we have downtown we have the better retail we'll have.  It's nice to have people like me an my Ex who could hop on the train and never go outside, but we need more variety and I think TC has that now. 

Decline?  There are so many variable that led to the change of the mall.  I blame FC for the majority of it, but many of the retailers in the mall are no longer in existence.  So the shift in the way towercity operated changed greatly.  Then  internet shopping took off in 2003/2004

 

So off the top of my head, these are stores that closed, not due to support from the Cleveland market.

 

• Warner Bros Studio Store
  
• The  Store (which were sold off, renamed World of , then repurchased a year or two ago when the company that purchased TDS went bankrupt)
  
• Liz Claiborne
  
• Barney's (Bankrupt) - At the time was going to expand up and north in TC.  One of the highest grossing Barneys locations.  The only Barney's store between Cleveland and San Fran.  There was no LA or Seattle store at the time
  
• Country Road Australia [the Australian GAP] (Bankrupt - re emerged as online store Country Road)
  
• Fruddruckers (Corporate bankrupt along with franchisee being duped)
  
• H20+ over expanded like Gucci, then went into financial trouble.  Downsized then purchased by a bank, IIRC.  Some stores are reopening after a brand remake.
  
• Joan & David (family business run into the ground and licensed off like Liz Claiborne)
  
• Walden Books (purchased by Brentanos, then by Kmart, then by Borders.)
  
• Harve Bernard (run into the round, now sold in some Ross Stores)
  
• Politix Small Australian Brand with only US stores in LA, San Fran and Denver.  Cleveland first store on East Coast.  I have no reason why this store failed, only US store is in the Beverly Center.
  
• Fendi (I was very good friends with the manager and the store was badly managed by the franchise owner, who wouldn't listen to anyone)
  
• JB Robinson/Zales/Kay - merged then had a corporate restructure
  
• Record Town - The music industry changed.
  

Contrary to what people believe, various retailers screwed themselves not just at TC, but nationwide.  It just happened that TC had the majority of high end/luxury stores under one roof in NE Ohio.  Beechwood was a ghost town at this time. You could have a basketball game in Saks, it was that empty.a

 

My concern is when TC open, there was no residential support.  Tower City was open until 8PM, 9pm on Thursdays, but after 6:30/7pm the shopping was very light.  In addition, the sell off of Higbee's and the screw up of Neiman Marcus, hurt the momentum.

 

If the original stores (or today's equivalent) open in TC today, I think it would be successful.

 

Great information MTS thanks.

 

Do you happen to know anymore about the Neimans deal? I remember on another thread once there was discussion that there was a letter of intent which still somehow has some legal  Relevance even today; not that they're planning to open a store any time soon, I just can't recall the details of this.

The Rock n Roll Hall of Fame was originally supposed to go to Tower City along the river, that was the draw for Neiman Marcus, which brought in a bunch of high end retail along with it.

Then the Rock Hall moved to North Coast Harbor, and Neiman Marcus was cancelled.

Several of the top tier stores had already signed a lease.  When the lease ended, they left.

I always heard the real reason The Rock N Roll Hall of Fame and Museum moved was when Forest City leased a store to a record store. Under the original agreement there waste be no competing business in the development and the deal was off.  I agree that Tower City killed all retail street life along Euclid Ave. It has never recovered.

 

 

MTS, thanks for the store list and what happened to their parent companies/other circumstances.

MTS, thanks for the store list and what happened to their parent companies/other circumstances.

 

Most were independent are apart of large conglomerates like Warner Bros. (Warner Bros. Entertainment) [Time inc. and Warner were not merged yet] Brick and Mortar stores were not deems profitable so they closed the division.  Most of those company's or parent company's do not exist.  Harve Bernard & Joan & David doesn't physically exist, but they license the name for products sold in mid to low level mass merchandisers, like Ross and JCPenney.

I do miss the Rand McNally store (don't need it with smart phones anymore), the Great American Train Store (Wings Hobby in Lakewood blows them away anyway, especially when it comes to railroad books), and my favorite cologne hut out on the mall floor.

The Rock n Roll Hall of Fame was originally supposed to go to Tower City along the river, that was the draw for Neiman Marcus, which brought in a bunch of high end retail along with it.

Then the Rock Hall moved to North Coast Harbor, and Neiman Marcus was cancelled.

Several of the top tier stores had already signed a lease.  When the lease ended, they left.

 

KJP help me out with this, Yes RRHOF was to go along the River, but was deemed they wouldn't be able to expandable (go figure) and something about integration with TC. 

 

When Neiman Marcus was announced, like most malls other stores were interested, considering Barney's and Higbee's (Higbee's downtown still being a premium store at the time) made it easier for merchants to come on board.  However, the wrinkle in the system was Barney's expanding into a larger store.  The Cleveland Barney's store (only 2 small floors - which was redesigned twice) was too small for the amount of sales they were doing.  That wasn't good for NM was owned by the same folks that own Bergdorf Goodman and the parent company was going to be purchased by General Motors  or General Appliance, General Something (its fuzzy).  Barney's and Bergdorf are rivals going after the same customer which caused problems considering they would be under the same roof! The company went thru a lot of changes in the late 80s which did not help things.  They've done little to no new builds but have enlarged existing stores.

 

At the time NM was at the time a regional luxury chain mostly in the Texas and Florida (NM is huge in Florida and was/is the the corner store of the Bal Harbour mall the mall was built FOR Neiman Marcus.). BG only has one store in NYC.

 

So all the stores built before the late 80's were downsized. The NM in Chicago built in '86 was under construction and struggling which also had an impact on the Cleveland store.

 

It wasn't that the stores refused to resign leases, it was the economy and bad management at many retailers that caused their own demise, not just here in Cleveland.

 

Having said all that IIRC, and this is not confirmed, is Neiman Marcus has a first refusal at TC.  So they have the option to be the first new department store built in TC.

 

KJP help me out with this, Yes RRHOF was to go along the River, but was deemed they wouldn't be able to expandable (go figure) and something about integration with TC. 

 

When Neiman Marcus was announced, like most malls other stores were interested, considering Barney's and Higbee's (Higbee's downtown still being a premium store at the time) made it easier for merchants to come on board.  However, the wrinkle in the system was Barney's expanding into a larger store.  The Cleveland Barney's store (only 2 small floors - which was redesigned twice) was too small for the amount of sales they were doing.  That wasn't good for NM was owned by the same folks that own Bergdorf Goodman and the parent company was going to be purchased by General Motors  or General Appliance, General Something (its fuzzy).  Barney's and Bergdorf are rivals going after the same customer which caused problems considering they would be under the same roof! The company went thru a lot of changes in the late 80s which did not help things.  They've done little to no new builds but have enlarged existing stores.

 

At the time NM was at the time a regional luxury chain mostly in the Texas and Florida (NM is huge in Florida and was/is the the corner store of the Bal Harbour mall the mall was built FOR Neiman Marcus.). BG only has one store in NYC.

 

So all the stores built before the late 80's were downsized. The NM in Chicago built in '86 was under construction and struggling which also had an impact on the Cleveland store.

 

It wasn't that the stores refused to resign leases, it was the economy and bad management at many retailers that caused their own demise, not just here in Cleveland.

 

Having said all that IIRC, and this is not confirmed, is Neiman Marcus has a first refusal at TC.  So they have the option to be the first new department store built in TC.

 

Sorry, but I don't remember the retail situations or conditions involving TC or its tenants when it first opened. Most of the time I spent at TC in the early 90s was at the food court with classmates as I was going to school in 1990-92 at Dyke College (later Myers) in the now-demolished Columbia Building on Prospect. If I visited any stores, I would visit the San Francisco Music Box Co. or the Disney Store to get something for my father for Christmas. But when I shopped for myself 99% of my TC time was spent at the Rand McNally store or the Great American Train Store.

 

I do remember the situation with the RRHOF and I think you've described that accurately -- lack of space for expansion and difficult site to work with for the first phase.

 

KJP help me out with this, Yes RRHOF was to go along the River, but was deemed they wouldn't be able to expandable (go figure) and something about integration with TC. 

 

When Neiman Marcus was announced, like most malls other stores were interested, considering Barney's and Higbee's (Higbee's downtown still being a premium store at the time) made it easier for merchants to come on board.  However, the wrinkle in the system was Barney's expanding into a larger store.  The Cleveland Barney's store (only 2 small floors - which was redesigned twice) was too small for the amount of sales they were doing.  That wasn't good for NM was owned by the same folks that own Bergdorf Goodman and the parent company was going to be purchased by General Motors  or General Appliance, General Something (its fuzzy).  Barney's and Bergdorf are rivals going after the same customer which caused problems considering they would be under the same roof! The company went thru a lot of changes in the late 80s which did not help things.  They've done little to no new builds but have enlarged existing stores.

 

At the time NM was at the time a regional luxury chain mostly in the Texas and Florida (NM is huge in Florida and was/is the the corner store of the Bal Harbour mall the mall was built FOR Neiman Marcus.). BG only has one store in NYC.

 

So all the stores built before the late 80's were downsized. The NM in Chicago built in '86 was under construction and struggling which also had an impact on the Cleveland store.

 

It wasn't that the stores refused to resign leases, it was the economy and bad management at many retailers that caused their own demise, not just here in Cleveland.

 

Having said all that IIRC, and this is not confirmed, is Neiman Marcus has a first refusal at TC.  So they have the option to be the first new department store built in TC.

 

Sorry, but I don't remember the retail situations or conditions involving TC or its tenants when it first opened. Most of the time I spent at TC in the early 90s was at the food court with classmates as I was going to school in 1990-92 at Dyke College (later Myers) in the now-demolished Columbia Building on Prospect. If I visited any stores, I would visit the San Francisco Music Box Co. or the  Store to get something for my father for Christmas. But when I shopped for myself 99% of my TC time was spent at the Rand McNally store or the Great American Train Store.

 

I do remember the situation with the RRHOF and I think you've described that accurately -- lack of space for expansion and difficult site to work with for the first phase.

 

RRHOF confirmation was what I needed help with.  I couldn't remember all the details.  I knew you would remember.

Dude, whatsamatta-you?? Can't you say/write or even quote "Disney"?? Disney-Disney-Disney!!!! :)

I always heard the real reason The Rock N Roll Hall of Fame and Museum moved was when Forest City leased a store to a record store. Under the original agreement there waste be no competing business in the development and the deal was off.  I agree that Tower City killed all retail street life along Euclid Ave. It has never recovered.

 

The Gateway District had a lot to do with that as well.  I can recall when Euclid thrived, and that area was blighted.  A point some around here forget is that the great new "hot" area usually doesn't grow at the expense of generica-land, but places like itself.

I just want to say I was an employee that helped open the WB Studio Store. I really liked working there but I was very sick at the time and eventually had to quit because they insisted everyone take a cashier shift and I couldn't do them very often because you couldn't leave to use the bathroom while you were on cashier. But it was really cool building the interior of the store from the ground-up.

I always heard the real reason The Rock N Roll Hall of Fame and Museum moved was when Forest City leased a store to a record store. Under the original agreement there waste be no competing business in the development and the deal was off.  I agree that Tower City killed all retail street life along Euclid Ave. It has never recovered.

 

The Gateway District had a lot to do with that as well.  I can recall when Euclid thrived, and that area was blighted.  A point some around here forget is that the great new "hot" area usually doesn't grow at the expense of generica-land, but places like itself.

Where did you read that?  "The Gateway District", your words, had a lot to do with what?  Please explain.  Keep in mind the "The Gateway District" didn't not exist.

I just want to say I was an employee that helped open the WB Studio Store. I really liked working there but I was very sick at the time and eventually had to quit because they insisted everyone take a cashier shift and I couldn't do them very often because you couldn't leave to use the bathroom while you were on cashier. But it was really cool building the interior of the store from the ground-up.

 

I spent a ton of money there, LOL.  Whenever I went to TC, there were four "always" stops, Walden, the WB store, "Football Town Again" (I knew the owner) and Cajun Grill for bourbon chicken. 

 

"Where did you read that?  "The Gateway District", your words, had a lot to do with what?  Please explain.  Keep in mind the "The Gateway District" didn't not exist."

 

As the area around Jacobs Field and Gund Arena grew, Euclid Avenue declined. Significantly.  I suspect it had more to do with said decline than TC did...

 

I just want to say I was an employee that helped open the WB Studio Store. I really liked working there but I was very sick at the time and eventually had to quit because they insisted everyone take a cashier shift and I couldn't do them very often because you couldn't leave to use the bathroom while you were on cashier. But it was really cool building the interior of the store from the ground-up.

 

I spent a ton of money there, LOL.  Whenever I went to TC, there were four "always" stops, Walden, the WB store, "Football Town Again" (I knew the owner) and Cajun Grill for bourbon chicken. 

 

"Where did you read that?  "The Gateway District", your words, had a lot to do with what?  Please explain.  Keep in mind the "The Gateway District" didn't not exist."

 

As the area around Jacobs Field and Gund Arena grew, Euclid Avenue declined. Significantly.  I suspect it had more to do with said decline than TC did...

 

 

Grew?  Grew where?  I'm confused, what specific area grew?

I just want to say I was an employee that helped open the WB Studio Store. I really liked working there but I was very sick at the time and eventually had to quit because they insisted everyone take a cashier shift and I couldn't do them very often because you couldn't leave to use the bathroom while you were on cashier. But it was really cool building the interior of the store from the ground-up.

 

I spent a ton of money there, LOL.  Whenever I went to TC, there were four "always" stops, Walden, the WB store, "Football Town Again" (I knew the owner) and Cajun Grill for bourbon chicken. 

 

"Where did you read that?  "The Gateway District", your words, had a lot to do with what?  Please explain.  Keep in mind the "The Gateway District" didn't not exist."

 

As the area around Jacobs Field and Gund Arena grew, Euclid Avenue declined. Significantly.  I suspect it had more to do with said decline than TC did...

 

 

So you are saying that a handful of sports bars a block off Euclid caused the shopping on Euclid (which you seem to be saying was doing well in the 80's) to tank?  Make sense, please!

This subject has always fascinated me because I never saw Tower City in its heyday. The decline has been talked about over and over and OVER again and I guess at this point it really doesn't matter. After the casino opened there was a flood if rumors that new changes and big name stores were coming but as of yet none of that ever panned out except for some cosmetic changes outside, etc. I'm sure it's been brought up before but i think the casinos influence needs to be observed for a year before retailers will commit. I do wonder though about stories claiming retailers were coming to TC asking for info instead of TC going to them. Now that I go through TC almost everyday I can say its definitely not a dead mall by any means, and I believe the worst is over, so to speak. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what comes about in the future. There's a lot connected to this though, I believe the casino phase 2 and the public square renovation are major impacting factors.

 

As a guy also in my mid-20s, I echo this, I don't remember the opening of TC. But I will say that compared to other cities (with the exception of big ones like NYC, Chicago, etc) Tower City is much healthier than other downtown shopping malls. I did almost all of my Christmas shopping there and got nearly everything I needed. I have asked a lot of people over the years why they don't go down to Tower City to shop, and besides the convenience of going to their nearby suburban hell hole shopping center/mall, they often give me answers that shows the still present racist/segregationist attitudes of many people. They often say Tower City has become too 'ghetto' and that they don't feel safe there. Unfortunately, I think more people hold this view than I would like to believe.

 

I absolutely agree. I think Tower City gets a bad rap and I think part of it is because of the color of half of the clientele. (As an African-American, it would be unfair if I didn't also acknowledge that the fear is not COMPLETELY unwarranted when it comes to some of these bad ass kids). I know for me growing up, we never went to Tower City much. Not for any particular reason. We just didn't. I grew up in Collinwood so we would always go to Euclid Square Mall and also Richmond and Severance weren't that far away either so we just went to one of those. Anyway, I remember I was downtown about a year ago. And I had decided to go into Tower City. I walk in, the place is beautiful, the stores are full and there's people everywhere. I look and I'm like "this mall isn't dead!" Tower City will always be a failure if it is viewed through the lens of what it used to be. But compared to Euclid Square Mall (dead), Randall Park Mall (dead), Richmond (in decline) and others, Tower City is doing pretty damn good. In fact, I'd argue that there are only about four "traditional" malls in the county that are doing well. Beachwood, Southpark, Great Northern and Tower City. TC may have a different clientele, but they can hold their own

This subject has always fascinated me because I never saw Tower City in its heyday. The decline has been talked about over and over and OVER again and I guess at this point it really doesn't matter. After the casino opened there was a flood if rumors that new changes and big name stores were coming but as of yet none of that ever panned out except for some cosmetic changes outside, etc. I'm sure it's been brought up before but i think the casinos influence needs to be observed for a year before retailers will commit. I do wonder though about stories claiming retailers were coming to TC asking for info instead of TC going to them. Now that I go through TC almost everyday I can say its definitely not a dead mall by any means, and I believe the worst is over, so to speak. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what comes about in the future. There's a lot connected to this though, I believe the casino phase 2 and the public square renovation are major impacting factors.

 

As a guy also in my mid-20s, I echo this, I don't remember the opening of TC. But I will say that compared to other cities (with the exception of big ones like NYC, Chicago, etc) Tower City is much healthier than other downtown shopping malls. I did almost all of my Christmas shopping there and got nearly everything I needed. I have asked a lot of people over the years why they don't go down to Tower City to shop, and besides the convenience of going to their nearby suburban hell hole shopping center/mall, they often give me answers that shows the still present racist/segregationist attitudes of many people. They often say Tower City has become too 'ghetto' and that they don't feel safe there. Unfortunately, I think more people hold this view than I would like to believe.

 

I missed this originally, but I think this is a perception that lots of people in Greater Cleveland/NE Ohio have about the city in general.  In addition to that, there has been two generations of people who do not know or remember what it was like to shop downtown, my nephew is 20 and barely remembers us shopping downtown.  So part of the perception is ignorance of the city.  So many people don't know various areas of the city or what the city has to offer.  I blame the media, the city promotions/development CDC and the Visitor convention bureau.

Redirected from the Tower City developments thread.......

 

To me, the "dream" for Tower City would be to convert the Landmark Office Buildings to residential and move the office functions of  their owner Sherwin-Williams into an iconic new skyscraper on the Jacobs lot on Public Square as an anchor tenant. If Chicago can have the "Coffee Can Building" -- why can't Cleveland have The Big Paint Can? :)

 

Redirected from the Tower City developments thread.......

 

To me, the "dream" for Tower City would be to convert the Landmark Office Buildings to residential and move the office functions of  their owner Sherwin-Williams into an iconic new skyscraper on the Jacobs lot on Public Square as an anchor tenant. If Chicago can have the "Coffee Can Building" -- why can't Cleveland have The Big Paint Can? :)

 

^I would much rather prefer residential on PS, and keep the offices where they are at the Landmark office towers.  Last thing we need on PS is another life-sucking full service office tower.  Put the 24/7 residents on PS please! 

Redirected from the Tower City developments thread.......

 

To me, the "dream" for Tower City would be to convert the Landmark Office Buildings to residential and move the office functions of  their owner Sherwin-Williams into an iconic new skyscraper on the Jacobs lot on Public Square as an anchor tenant. If Chicago can have the "Coffee Can Building" -- why can't Cleveland have The Big Paint Can? :)

 

^I would much rather prefer residential on PS, and keep the offices where they are at the Landmark office towers.  Last thing we need on PS is another life-sucking full service office tower.  Put the 24/7 residents on PS please! 

 

I tend to agree.  The Landmark offices are right where the need to be: clearly in the mix, but behind the scenes somewhat.  I like putting people in the people places.  The Park Building conversion is a great upgrade from a semi-rundown (I'll bet largely empty) office building, to a spruced up/handsome, vital condo development ... right on the Square.

Since the Ritz is now over 20 years old, what about converting it into luxury apartments rather than refurbish the hotel, and constructing a new, larger luxury hotel as part of phase 2 casino, maybe a Caesar's Palace, keeping with the Caesar's Entertainment partnership with Rock Gaming.  Just a thought, but it will be interesting to see what the new owners do with TC.