Does it occupy the entire footprint of Court/Central/Bowen/Walnut? Also, if the storefront is on Court, how will the Streetcar power station affect the street life if at all?

 

In terms of the power station affecting the hypothetical grocery store, the station is set back enough from Walnut that an entrance on the SW corner of Court and Walnut would still be highly visible from all angles. The parking spots that would have been directly in front of the store aren't there, but that might actually be a good thing for pedestrian flow. Maybe the store could hang some advertising banners on the substation or even put up video boards on the brick ends of the station that rotate through store specials.

 

Another thing a hypothetical grocery at that location could do is team up with Avril Bleh meats to sell their product in the grocery store, extending Avril Bleh's sales past the operating hours of their shop because the grocery would probably remain open later.

Are there any articles or documents about this, the one linked seems to be more speculative than anything else.

Everything being discussed is speculative at this point. No one has officially submitted any plans.

They could rebuild the power thing underground, then put the existing one in storage for Phase II. 

They could rebuild the power thing underground, then put the existing one in storage for Phase II. 

 

The problem is that it has to be easily accessible. They can't put it underground or in the interior of a building. They could put it somewhere else (maybe in the small surface lot between the HamCo Admin Building and the small historic building at the corner of Central Parkway & Main) so that they could restore that Court Street parking if necessary.

They're underground on most subway systems. 

The most offensive building in all of downtown though, imo, is the hideous parking garage on 7th and Elm.  Not only is it completely dead at ground level, it is absolutely atrocious looking, and sits right next to some of Cincinnati's best architectural gems- the Wise Temple, St. Peter in Chains Cathedral, and the Presbyterian Church anchoring the end of Piatt Park.  Even a surface lot would be an upgrade over that garage.

 

That whole area of Downtown is such a mess. The 7th & Elm garage is massive and ugly.

 

6th & Elm's NW corner has this parking structure that looks like a bigger version of the American Red Cross garage that was demolished along 7th:

 

 

And what is the building at the NE corner of that block? Is it offices for the Millennium Hotel or something? The remaining skwalk between that building and the hotel is massive. If you set the date back a few years on Google Maps, there were a lot more sections of the skywalk in that part of the city that were removed.

Poor little guy, like parking garage kudzu vine.

And what is the building at the NE corner of that block? Is it offices for the Millennium Hotel or something? The remaining skwalk between that building and the hotel is massive. If you set the date back a few years on Google Maps, there were a lot more sections of the skywalk in that part of the city that were removed.

 

Movie theatre and store I believe. I've seen many photos of it posted up on that Old Photos of Cincinnati group, usually from the skywalk level.

With the demolition of the Red Cross Garage and now the Pogues garage this area is home to some of downtowns oldest and most derelict garages. The Shilitos garage and the ones north of the convention center should be the next to go.

 

The building at the NE Corner of Elm and 6th is for some fitness club. There is a sign for it somewhere on street level.

Was the garage pictured above the location of the 6th street market?

^ I think it may have been, explains the 'middle of the road' location

Upon further looking no, the market seems to have been where the convention center expansion is. They sure screwed the streets (and most everything else) up on this side of town thru the years.

 

Was the garage pictured above the location of the 6th street market?

 

The market was on the south side of today's 6th Street where the convention center is now. 

And what is the building at the NE corner of that block? Is it offices for the Millennium Hotel or something? The remaining skwalk between that building and the hotel is massive. If you set the date back a few years on Google Maps, there were a lot more sections of the skywalk in that part of the city that were removed.

 

Movie theatre and store I believe. I've seen many photos of it posted up on that Old Photos of Cincinnati group, usually from the skywalk level.

 

I seem to recall there was a gym and racquetball court in there. But I could be mistaken.

I don't mean to be a hater but... Does it seem like some of this year's Artworks murals are going up next to lots that could see development within the next five years? For example Rosemary Clooney mural in OTR is facing a prominent lot on Liberty right next to streetcar stops. The 80's Kenner toy mural on Court could see development next door as well.

And what is the building at the NE corner of that block? Is it offices for the Millennium Hotel or something? The remaining skwalk between that building and the hotel is massive. If you set the date back a few years on Google Maps, there were a lot more sections of the skywalk in that part of the city that were removed.

 

Movie theatre and store I believe. I've seen many photos of it posted up on that Old Photos of Cincinnati group, usually from the skywalk level.

 

I seem to recall there was a gym and racquetball court in there. But I could be mistaken.

 

Yes, I'm pretty certain this was a gym a number of years ago.  I actually was in that part of the building back in 2008 for a work seminar.  The part I was in have the lovely glass block windows that you see on the exterior.  This seminar was scheduled to take place in the Millennium Hotel, but it was the same this as a large convention here in town (maybe the Baptist conference)?  Anyhow, I think our small seminar group got "bumped" into this unused part of the hotel.  It was pretty dismal over there, and the restrooms that we used were the old gym locker rooms.  There were lockers in the restrooms, and one of the days, when were bored, we looked in some of the unlocked lockers and found lots of beer bottles and old newspapers. 

 

I think I gave this venue the worst review I have ever given for a venue that has hosted a seminar that I have attended. 

Definitely remember it as a fitness facility. The other thing that throws off that side of CBD is the convention center cutting off Plum.

 

 

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Definitely remember it as a fitness facility. The other thing that throws off that side of CBD is the convention center cutting off Plum.

 

Totally agree about how the Convention Center throws off the "flow" of that side of the CBD. Any massive, two block super structure will be challenging to incorporate into the downtown grid of one-way streets. The current configuration of 4-lanes (during rush hour) of one-way traffic on 5th and 6th Streets makes it feel like a highway on both sides... and it makes it awkward to navigate around by car (or even by bike, unless you bike on the sidewalks). 5th and 6th Streets are designed as on/exit ramps for I-75, so I'm not optimistic that ODOT would allow any modifications to reduce capacity. Which is unfortunate since I'll often see huge groups of convention goers waiting on the sidewalk watch as cars whiz by at ~40 mph. Not a good pedestrian experience. As a cheap traffic calming measure, I'd like to see on-street parking allowed all day to guarantee the sidewalks have a buffer. With a bit of money, adding curb bumpouts at crosswalks would help even more.

 

It would be great to see the old Shillito's warehouse redeveloped into housing or offices, and the smaller addition that blocks Shillito Place be removed so that Shillito Place can be reconnected to Elm Street.

 

Then, the fitness club and skywalk glob connecting to the Milennium could be demolished and you would have a big quarter block to infill.

It would be great to see the old Shillito's warehouse redeveloped into housing or offices, and the smaller addition that blocks Shillito Place be removed so that Shillito Place can be reconnected to Elm Street.

 

Then, the fitness club and skywalk glob connecting to the Milennium could be demolished and you would have a big quarter block to infill.

 

I like your idea. That would also increase visibility of the beautiful historic southern facade of the Shillito's building. Anybody know what that Shillito's warehouse and addition are being used for today? The <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1023516,-84.5161299,3a,75y,338.82h,82.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDbwU5Cd-qLY0WxxcF9xpAg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">loading bays on Morand Alley</a> appear to be used for some kind of garage, but I don't know about the upper floors. The whole Shillito's complex (including the renovated portion on the eastern half of the block) is owned by the City of Cincinnati.

 

 

Definitely remember it as a fitness facility. The other thing that throws off that side of CBD is the convention center cutting off Plum.

 

Totally agree about how the Convention Center throws off the "flow" of that side of the CBD. Any massive, two block super structure will be challenging to incorporate into the downtown grid of one-way streets. The current configuration of 4-lanes (during rush hour) of one-way traffic on 5th and 6th Streets makes it feel like a highway on both sides... and it makes it awkward to navigate around by car (or even by bike, unless you bike on the sidewalks). 5th and 6th Streets are designed as on/exit ramps for I-75, so I'm not optimistic that ODOT would allow any modifications to reduce capacity. Which is unfortunate since I'll often see huge groups of convention goers waiting on the sidewalk watch as cars whiz by at ~40 mph. Not a good pedestrian experience. As a cheap traffic calming measure, I'd like to see on-street parking allowed all day to guarantee the sidewalks have a buffer. With a bit of money, adding curb bumpouts at crosswalks would help even more.

 

 

Also, we need to get out of this idea that the convention center needs to be expanded.  That's what is keeping development from happening on the lots to its south.  The city isn't "missing out" on anything by not having a gigantic convention center. 

 

The nerd stuff that's taking over the convention business often doesn't take as much space as the B2B stuff that used to be the bread and butter of the industry.

It would be great to see the old Shillito's warehouse redeveloped into housing or offices, and the smaller addition that blocks Shillito Place be removed so that Shillito Place can be reconnected to Elm Street.

 

Then, the fitness club and skywalk glob connecting to the Milennium could be demolished and you would have a big quarter block to infill.

 

I like your idea. That would also increase visibility of the beautiful historic southern facade of the Shillito's building. Anybody know what that Shillito's warehouse and addition are being used for today? The <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1023516,-84.5161299,3a,75y,338.82h,82.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDbwU5Cd-qLY0WxxcF9xpAg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">loading bays on Morand Alley</a> appear to be used for some kind of garage, but I don't know about the upper floors. The whole Shillito's complex (including the renovated portion on the eastern half of the block) is owned by the City of Cincinnati.

 

My impression is that the Shillito's warehouse is empty, but I could be wrong. I know there were very tentative discussions about pulling it down to provide parking for the Dunnhumby development, before they came up with the plan to build parking on site.

The nerd stuff that's taking over the convention business often doesn't take as much space as the B2B stuff that used to be the bread and butter of the industry.

 

There are a lot of youth athletics events like cheerleading and gymnastics meets at the Midwestern convention centers, not "conventions".  People out the outside don't know that a lot of these meets and tournaments are for-profit ventures by individuals, not neutral events staged by governing bodies.  Some of these events bring in $50k+ for a single enterprising individual.  They take a risk by renting out the convention centers, but the higher profile venue gives their event a lot more cache than a county fairgrounds, suburban high school gym, etc. 

 

 

 

Definitely remember it as a fitness facility. The other thing that throws off that side of CBD is the convention center cutting off Plum.

 

Totally agree about how the Convention Center throws off the "flow" of that side of the CBD. Any massive, two block super structure will be challenging to incorporate into the downtown grid of one-way streets. The current configuration of 4-lanes (during rush hour) of one-way traffic on 5th and 6th Streets makes it feel like a highway on both sides... and it makes it awkward to navigate around by car (or even by bike, unless you bike on the sidewalks). 5th and 6th Streets are designed as on/exit ramps for I-75, so I'm not optimistic that ODOT would allow any modifications to reduce capacity. Which is unfortunate since I'll often see huge groups of convention goers waiting on the sidewalk watch as cars whiz by at ~40 mph. Not a good pedestrian experience. As a cheap traffic calming measure, I'd like to see on-street parking allowed all day to guarantee the sidewalks have a buffer. With a bit of money, adding curb bumpouts at crosswalks would help even more.

 

 

Also, we need to get out of this idea that the convention center needs to be expanded.  That's what is keeping development from happening on the lots to its south.  The city isn't "missing out" on anything by not having a gigantic convention center.

 

What if the NKY Convention Center expanded onto the IRS site so that it was the same size as Cincinnati's? Then our core could host double the amount of events, or the two convention centers could coordinate on a large event.

Perhaps that possibility keeps the Cincinnati convention people awake at night.  But who cares?  These people act as if conventions are the salvation of any city that hosts them.  The problem is that these damn convention centers hold whole areas of town hostage over prospective expansions that might or might not ever happen. 

Definitely remember it as a fitness facility. The other thing that throws off that side of CBD is the convention center cutting off Plum.

 

Totally agree about how the Convention Center throws off the "flow" of that side of the CBD. Any massive, two block super structure will be challenging to incorporate into the downtown grid of one-way streets. The current configuration of 4-lanes (during rush hour) of one-way traffic on 5th and 6th Streets makes it feel like a highway on both sides... and it makes it awkward to navigate around by car (or even by bike, unless you bike on the sidewalks). 5th and 6th Streets are designed as on/exit ramps for I-75, so I'm not optimistic that ODOT would allow any modifications to reduce capacity. Which is unfortunate since I'll often see huge groups of convention goers waiting on the sidewalk watch as cars whiz by at ~40 mph. Not a good pedestrian experience. As a cheap traffic calming measure, I'd like to see on-street parking allowed all day to guarantee the sidewalks have a buffer. With a bit of money, adding curb bumpouts at crosswalks would help even more.

 

 

Also, we need to get out of this idea that the convention center needs to be expanded.  That's what is keeping development from happening on the lots to its south.  The city isn't "missing out" on anything by not having a gigantic convention center.

 

What if the NKY Convention Center expanded onto the IRS site so that it was the same size as Cincinnati's? Then our core could host double the amount of events, or the two convention centers could coordinate on a large event.

 

As much as I love encouraging cross-river activities, and I agree that there should be more coordination when it comes to promoting the region... it would be a real pain to go to a conference that is split between those two venues. They're over a mile away, which is too far for most people to walk. Cincinnati already has enough space to compete for the largest conferences.

Rather than increase the size of the convention center, I think a better way to go would be to build a first-rate convention hotel either on the surface lot at 5th and Elm or as a replacement of the Millennium.  The new hotel should have large meeting spaces- much larger than a normal hotel would have, and those could presumably act as a proxy for convention center expansion.  Might not be a perfect solution, but I think it certainly makes more sense than continuing to expand the sprawling convention center.  And really, Cincinnati isn't going to be able to accommodate the largest of the large conventions around, and that's probably ok, I think.  Indy really seems to excel at the the large convention game, but they have several built in advantages that Cincinnati just can't and shouldn't try to compete with.  If we have facilities that can accommodate the majority of conventions, I wouldn't bother destroying more urban fabric just to land the occasional big one. 

Columbus center is 3X the size of Cincinnati's, but there's reasons for that.

Just picture the Pure Romance convention straddling both sides of the river. 

Soil Samples today at the corner of central parkway and W. central parkway. Lot next to the YMCA.

 

 

 

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That would be such a good spot for a great anchor building. 10 stories or more, accentuates that corner with intelligent architectural moves, grounds the curve of Central Parkway a bit better since it sort of feels odd at the moment, etc. Let's hope this is the first signs of something major.

Wow soil samples on two different surface lots on Central Parkway. If development comes to both of them, the character of CP would be transformed immediately. Hope we hear something about both of these lots soon.

Wait, what other lot is having soil samples done on it?

Wait, what other lot is having soil samples done on it?

Court and walnut.

 

 

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That would be such a good spot for a great anchor building. 10 stories or more, accentuates that corner with intelligent architectural moves, grounds the curve of Central Parkway a bit better since it sort of feels odd at the moment, etc. Let's hope this is the first signs of something major.

 

Yeah, I wish...

We can dream haha.

 

Now that I've moved away from Cincinnati I'm realizing something about urban infill. I often had a "grass is always greener" feeling while living in OTR about new construction but...now that I'm in NYC I'm realizing 90% of what's built here is equally bland or worse. I've seen so many new buildings that don't have central air and have a facade that's pockmarked with through-wall AC units, brick veneers that have effluoresence problems almost immediately, cheap fiber cement paneling that's used poorly, flat facades that have no material articulation, etc. all while fetching $3-$10/square foot/month. Cincinnati's infill woes aren't unique.

^ And electric and gas meters right next to the front door.

My favorite are the buildings that sell out based on renderings WELL before construction is complete and then when it's done you look and they've downsized the windows, they had conveniently left off ALL the utility and mechanical systems that would exist (which all seem to make their way to the front facade), have had the materials value engineered, etc.

 

I'd be super pissed if I spent $2,000/square foot on a place and then when it was actually complete it looked like the amateur version of the building shown in the renderings. But that little * in the bottom corner of the brochure protects the developer from being liable in any way.

We can dream haha.

 

Now that I've moved away from Cincinnati I'm realizing something about urban infill. I often had a "grass is always greener" feeling while living in OTR about new construction but...now that I'm in NYC I'm realizing 90% of what's built here is equally bland or worse. I've seen so many new buildings that don't have central air and have a facade that's pockmarked with through-wall AC units, brick veneers that have effluoresence problems almost immediately, cheap fiber cement paneling that's used poorly, flat facades that have no material articulation, etc. all while fetching $3-$10/square foot/month. Cincinnati's infill woes aren't unique.

 

A lot of that stuff was done in the '70s and '80s when nobody cared.

I'm referring to brand new buildings that aren't even finished. I just walked by a "luxury" building in Bushwick while on my way to a jobsite and the rendering was posted outside which looked nice, clean, modern, contextual, etc. The reality was a facade that felt cheap and was riddled with mechanical systems, vent stacks visible on the roof, AC through-wall units, etc. This was a brand new building that will likely command thousands a month for a studio and is built like a crappy post-war apartment building in an undesirable location.

 

And these exist all over the city. Through-wall units are way too common in new construction here.

^ Parts of Brooklyn and Queens have some of the worst urban infill I've ever seen in the US. The standard developer there seems to buy 2-4 single family or duplex 2-3 story buildings and replaces them with a 4-8 story condo building and spares every possible expense while doing so. It's typically worse than the student housing that has been going up around UC over the past ~5 years. I remember seeing a few of these on virtually every block when I lived in Astoria.

 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7197678,-73.9623181,3a,75y,315.17h,75.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWmPgueq6srQdCGkxQ29HZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I mean, for real though hideous. And this is far from the worst offenders. But some of these take up SO much area that they overpower anything good happening on nearby lots.

 

I have the pleasure of looking at this everyday.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6521063,-73.9643228,3a,60y,131.86h,108.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6JWj_kYiRIy9I12YD3m4Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I mean, wtf is that? I'm mostly just confused as to what happened.

Young people are so desperate to get away from their Middle America subdivision that they don't care what the buildings look like.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7197678,-73.9623181,3a,75y,315.17h,75.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWmPgueq6srQdCGkxQ29HZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I mean, for real though hideous. And this is far from the worst offenders. But some of these take up SO much area that they overpower anything good happening on nearby lots.

 

I have the pleasure of looking at this everyday.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6521063,-73.9643228,3a,60y,131.86h,108.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6JWj_kYiRIy9I12YD3m4Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I mean, wtf is that? I'm mostly just confused as to what happened.

 

These are still better looking than most of what goes up in Cincinnati, don't kid yourself.  Remember this?

 

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/f10b7988b1a015d0c4fa94ffb03f6bea1c38c864/c=212-0-3659-2592&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2016/04/08/Cincinnati/Cincinnati/635957190838089110-DSC-0013.JPG

 

 

They aren't great though.

 

 

I'm currently in Denver and most of the new apartment buildings are horrible. The ones right in downtown and around five points are similar to what we have at the banks or up on 7th/8th, but once you get away from that they get really bad. At least in our area we usually get brick, in the West you can have a pure EIFS facade with vinyl windows stuck in it and call it "stucco" when it's really a four story wall of painted styrofoam.

No central air in a new building in NYC (or anywhere in most of the US) is really bad.

I've seen on the Market Urbanism Twitter account a lot of complaining about all the thru-wall units, window air conditioners, and PTAC units.  How are these new buildings heated?  Obviously old buildings with window or thru-wall a/c would have radiators, but in new buildings are these units heat pumps and/or electric resistance heaters, or is there a hot water feed to the PTAC units?

Given the recent advances in mini split heat pumps, the small size of the condensing units, and the flexibility of install options I don't understand why these have not caught on for new small apartment buildings