1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

I'm all for any immigrants coming to our city.  Increase the population and increase the diversity.  There are a lot of jobs like construction that these people would probably love to have.  

 

Exactly. The immigrant populations from Central America and Mexico have really done a lot to revitalize neighborhoods in Philly where I used to live. These places were bombed out shells of neighborhoods 10 years ago and now they're vibrant and redeveloping. There parks have been cleaned up and the streets are lively now. 

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Although it seems now there has been a bit of a reverse migration from Springdale and Fairfield to East Price Hill. I have some friends who work to help immigrants in the area who have confirmed this. A lot of them feel safer in the City of Cincinnati than in the suburban communities so they're going to East Price Hill. 

 

The article mentioned this very thing:

"The Central American migration to East Price Hill and surrounding neighborhoods also has resulted in people moving from suburban Springdale and Fairfield. Fernandez said that's because some migrants believe they're safer in a larger community. They also are nearer to necessary education, social and legal services in Cincinnati as compared to other areas locally."

 

It's interesting because this is not the trend nationally. We are seeing more "ethnoburbs" as immigrants forego the historic trend of settling in urban neigborhoods and forming ethnic enclaves like Chinatowns and the like, and instead locate immediately in the suburbs. This was the case for a while, as Cincinnati had almost no Hispanic presence in the city, but a decent community up in Springdale/Fairfield/Hamilton areas, but now it's reversing. Butler County's extreme conservatism and their crazy racist sheriff is shifting the community to the city. Their loss. 

 

Anecdotally, I did some work for a non-profit about 4 years ago, and one of the projects involved handing out lunches to impoverished children. We went to a couple of sites in East Price Hill, and the overwhelming majority of children who came out to get the lunches were Mexican and Central American. A lot of those apartment buildings in this area are packed (probably way overcrowded) with Hispanic families. I don't remember seeing much of a visible presence in the area, though. Very few restaurants or stores, signs in Spanish, etc. Hopefully as the community becomes more settled, their visibility will increase, and they can populate some of the storefronts in the commercial corridors of Price Hill.

Edited May 9, 20196 yr by edale

and here I thought most were moving to Carthage/Elmwood Place.

There are a lot of Mexicans and others from points further south living in Cincinnati-area trailer parks.  

Price Hill is still pretty cheap. Since hipsters are repulsed by hillbillies but Hispanics are not it allowed an inexpensive opening in an urban setting for them.

29 minutes ago, edale said:

Anecdotally, I did some work for a non-profit about 4 years ago, and one of the projects involved handing out lunches to impoverished children. We went to a couple of sites in East Price Hill, and the overwhelming majority of children who came out to get the lunches were Mexican and Central American. A lot of those apartment buildings in this area are packed (probably way overcrowded) with Hispanic families. I don't remember seeing much of a visible presence in the area, though. Very few restaurants or stores, signs in Spanish, etc. Hopefully as the community becomes more settled, their visibility will increase, and they can populate some of the storefronts in the commercial corridors of Price Hill.

 

That is beginning to change. While the population in Price Hill is more Guatemalan than Mexican, several new events and venues are celebrating Central American culture. The St. Lawrence Square concert series put on by Price Hill Will features Armadura Musical and Salsaires Cincinnati. Vera Cruz restaurant has opened on Price Ave. Santa Maria, one of the oldest social services in the city, operates Literacy Center West, which is completely bilingual. There is a Mayan inspired mural across the street from MYCincinnati's current facility on Warsaw. The Kroger on Warsaw has the widest selection of Central American cuisine that I've ever seen in a Kroger. La Viña church uses Roberts Academy library for their services (that may have changed... I haven't worked there since July 2014). And the Catholic schools are nearing 50% latinx. I'm interested to see what the census results show following next year's count but I'm also worried that Trump's intimidation measures may keep some people from filling out the forms. 

1 minute ago, GCrites80s said:

Price Hill is still pretty cheap. Since hipsters are repulsed by hillbillies but Hispanics are not it allowed an inexpensive opening in an urban setting for them.

 

That might be fun to say, but it isn't entirely true. A lot of young, educated, creative folks are moving into the neighborhood. Anecdotally, I've had several friends, most of them couples, move to the neighborhood and buy their first homes. Some are even purchasing duplexes and renting them out to other families. East Price Hill is becoming more diverse, not just in skin tone but also economically. More than anything, I believe it is the West Siders' inability to see that their grandparents' homes are worth investing in that is creating this niche in the market.

^ Generally speaking, I think it is true that hipsters and early gentrifiers tend to avoid “hillbilly” neighborhoods. Nationally, it seems to be the case that Hispanic (and ethnic white neighborhoods in places like Chicago) are the first to gentrify. Black neighborhoods are slower to gentrify, and Appalachian are slower still. Look at how Norwood continues to be Norwood while the Hyde Park aspirational crowd has moved on to Pleasant Ridge and Madisonville rather than Norwood which is much closer and more centrally located. 

45 minutes ago, edale said:

^ Generally speaking, I think it is true that hipsters and early gentrifiers tend to avoid “hillbilly” neighborhoods. Nationally, it seems to be the case that Hispanic (and ethnic white neighborhoods in places like Chicago) are the first to gentrify. Black neighborhoods are slower to gentrify, and Appalachian are slower still. Look at how Norwood continues to be Norwood while the Hyde Park aspirational crowd has moved on to Pleasant Ridge and Madisonville rather than Norwood which is much closer and more centrally located. 

 

Eh, I don't really buy it. I grew up in Appalachia and have been alternatively called a hipster and a yuppie so I feel I can speak to this. I have no problem with Appalachians and neither do any of my friends. The most hipster among them are really into folk and bluegrass music. When we were looking to buy a house we considered East Price Hill but then decided to narrow it down to Northside, Walnut Hills/East Walnut Hills, or Evanston. Why? Because there are lots of things to walk to and places to see live music and go out to eat. East Price Hill just doesn't have as many of those things yet. I could see the hipster and yuppie crowds really flocking there if the Latinx community opens more restaurants. It comes down to walkability and things to do and East Price Hill just wasn't there yet for us. 

 

EDIT TO ADD: And Norwood's problem is that there is literally nothing to walk to. I know a few people who have bought houses in Norwood and their biggest complaint is that they have to take an Uber to Oakley on the weekends to hang out. 

Edited May 9, 20196 yr by DEPACincy

Covington (scuvington) and Hamilton (hamiltucky) are also both currently gentrifying and building shiny new apartment buildings. 

4 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Eh, I don't really buy it. I grew up in Appalachia and have been alternatively called a hipster and a yuppie so I feel I can speak to this. I have no problem with Appalachians and neither do any of my friends. The most hipster among them are really into folk and bluegrass music. When we were looking to buy a house we considered East Price Hill but then decided to narrow it down to Northside, Walnut Hills/East Walnut Hills, or Evanston. Why? Because there are lots of things to walk to and places to see live music and go out to eat. East Price Hill just doesn't have as many of those things yet. I could see the hipster and yuppie crowds really flocking there if the Latinx community opens more restaurants. It comes down to walkability and things to do and East Price Hill just wasn't there yet for us. 

 

EDIT TO ADD: And Norwood's problem is that there is literally nothing to walk to. I know a few people who have bought houses in Norwood and their biggest complaint is that they have to take an Uber to Oakley on the weekends to hang out. 

 

I'd like to see examples of where gentrification is occurring in Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati...maybe Louisville and Nashville, too. Those cities all have decent Appalachian and Black communities. If I had to bet, I would say gentrification is happening more in the Black parts of town than in the Appalachian areas. 

 

In places with decent Hispanic populations, there is definitely a trend of those neighborhoods gentrifying before Black neighborhoods. You can look at examples from LA to the Bay Area to Miami and this holds true. Cincinnati's Hispanic population is so pathetically small that we can't really observe this trend, but it has definitely played out in Chicago, where Mexican and Puerto Rican neighborhoods are gentrifying while Black neighborhoods continue to empty out and receive little investment. 

 

And to your point about there being nothing to walk to in Norwood, what is there to walk to in Evanston or Madisonville? Even Walnut Hills has very little in the way of businesses to walk to, yet all three of those neighborhoods are on the upswing and seeing decent levels of reinvestment, while Norwood (outside of Rookwood) continues to stagnate. Covington has amazing, beautiful building stock throughout the city, but by and large, it is not seeing much in the way of new investment outside of the riverfront and Main Strasse areas. I had a couple friends who lived in a beautiful building on Greenup Street with incredibly cheap rent, and they ended up moving because they said the neighborhood was just too redneck. Both are Asian and had unfortunate incidents with hillbillies yelling racial slurs in the 2 years they lived there. They ended up moving to Corryville, which they said felt less safe at night, but otherwise offered a more comfortable living environment. Hipsters do often proclaim to love Bluegrass and other Appalachian cultural elements, but we all know people can love the culture and be intolerant of the people. White people love to braid their hair when they go to the Bahamas, but a black guy with corn rows still might cause Becky to cross the street....it's really a classic situation that plays out all the time.

Funny that you share a story about an Asian couple having racial slurs yelled at them; and yet you think it nothing at all to throw around the slur of hillbilly and redneck.  As someone of Appalachian descent I find the term hillbilly to be extremely offensive. Can we please refrain from using it from here on out? 

 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by cincity

There is an embracing of the term in Appalachian culture that is vastly different than the use of the N-word in Hip Hop. As someone who is also of Appalachian descent I am well aware of this.

I never compared it to the use of the N-word.  I am also aware that some in the Appalachian culture embrace the term. I am not one of them. If used by someone not of Appalachian descent it is almost certainly used as a slur.  All of the negative connotations associated with it are very clear to the one using it and also to the person or persons on the receiving end of it. While some Appalachians have owned it, many still feel the sting of it.  I am glad you are not offended by it.  While I do not make it equivalent to the N-word, I would not hesitate to place it on equal ground with other ethnic/cultural slurs.  And therefore, just as unacceptable imo.

 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by cincity

Norwood is definitely gentrifying at a rapid pace.  And by gentrifying, I mean white yuppies are replacing the white working class.  Prices have doubled since 2016.  The flips began en masse in 2017, first between Montgomery and I-71, but now the entirety of Norwood is being feasted upon, westward toward Victory Parkway.

 

$375k listing for a four-square close to Rookwood:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1619129/2576-Marsh-Ave-Norwood-OH-45212

 

$133k listing for a 1-bathroom in hillbilly central just north of XU, up against the old railroad tracks.  There were confederate flags hanging from porches in that area when I was last over there about two years ago, back when the homes were selling for $60k. 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1619997/4023-Huston-Ave-Norwood-OH-45212

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, cincity said:

I never compared it to the use of the N-word.  I am also aware that some in the Appalachian culture embrace the term. I am not one of them. If used by someone not of Appalachian descent it is almost certainly used as a slur.  All of the negative connotations associated with it are very clear to the one using it and also to the person or persons on the receiving end of it. While some Appalachians have owned it, many still feel the sting of it.  I am glad you are not offended by it.  While I do not make it equivalent to the N-word, I would not hesitate to place it on equal ground with other ethnic/cultural slurs.  

 

 

 

The main difference between it and other ethnic and cultural slurs is that only exists as a mindset. There is no Appalachian ethnicity in contrast to say Roma or Kurdish people. Even on a cultural basis an Appalachian is not wedded to nurture in a way that other cultural minorities are.

1 hour ago, cincity said:

Funny that you share a story about an Asian couple having racial slurs yelled at them; and yet you think it nothing at all to throw around the slur of hillbilly and redneck.  As someone of Appalachian descent I find the term hillbilly to be extremely offensive. Can we please refrain from using it from here on out? 

 

 

Fair enough. I actually have roots in Appalachia myself and while I think it’s a REACH to equate either of those words with the N word or other ethnic slurs, I understand how they can be seen as offensive. Btw I don’t equate all Appalachians with hillbillies. You can be from Appalachia and not keep a busted down washing machine in the front yard, display the confederate flag, etc. I think of those as being hillbilly behavior- not Appalachian. 

^ Thank you.  I would use the term redneck and not hillbilly. Rednecks revel in being referred to as such. 

 

6 minutes ago, edale said:

 

Fair enough. I actually have roots in Appalachia myself and while I think it’s a REACH to equate either of those words with the N word or other ethnic slurs, I understand how they can be seen as offensive. Btw I don’t equate all Appalachians with hillbillies. You can be from Appalachia and not keep a busted down washing machine in the front yard, display the confederate flag, etc. I think of those as being hillbilly behavior- not Appalachian. 

 

Agreed. Nobody needs to keep a junk Nova in the front yard or yell (probably nationalistically inaccurate) racial slurs at local Asians. Keep playing that mandolin, though! Sounds good.

2 minutes ago, cincity said:

^ Thank you.  I would use the term redneck and not hillbilly. Rednecks revel in being referred to as such. 

 

 

Cool ? sorry, I honestly meant no offense!

See, you can have fun with it. I always liked this place's food when I lived in WV:

 

^In this case the meat might actually be "dog" or possum, or the latest roadkill.  Do I want to know?

Edale,  it's cool.  I guess I'm just a little aggravated today after a frustrating day at work.  The constant use of hillbilly by several people just sort of fed my sour mood.  

Keep in mind that the whole discussion really revolved around the fact that hipsters have an unnecessary and unnatural aversion to these folk considering their proclivities toward gentrification of neighborhoods that currently contain other groups.

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

Norwood is definitely gentrifying at a rapid pace.  And by gentrifying, I mean white yuppies are replacing the white working class.  Prices have doubled since 2016.  The flips began en masse in 2017, first between Montgomery and I-71, but now the entirety of Norwood is being feasted upon, westward toward Victory Parkway.

 

$375k listing for a four-square close to Rookwood:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1619129/2576-Marsh-Ave-Norwood-OH-45212

 

$133k listing for a 1-bathroom in hillbilly central just north of XU, up against the old railroad tracks.  There were confederate flags hanging from porches in that area when I was last over there about two years ago, back when the homes were selling for $60k. 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1619997/4023-Huston-Ave-Norwood-OH-45212

 

 

 

 

 

Getting back to the development side of things, will Trump Unleash the Fury and just dump all the mortgage regulations (a la Bush II) that keep immediate-occupancy properties sky high? If all of a sudden speculative building of single-familys was once again allowed and inventories bloated I'd imagine upward-price pressure would come off everywhere. Will Congress let him? If it happened, would the banks even do it again? Even if current prices are somewhat unfair to new buyers, many of these older properties that have been sitting vacant or undervalued all over the Midwest do need to fill back up badly before sprawl building returns on a large scale.

It is absolutely true Latino/Hispanic populations have no problem going into working-class white/Appalachian neighborhoods nationwide as more of the typical white yuppie/hipsters move into black neighborhoods.  Detroit, for example, has shown white gentrification in neighborhoods that were once 99% black (Brush Park, East Jefferson, Midtown, etc) but they haven't moved into Southwest Detroit, which was historically white-working class and Appalachian migrants.  But who did?  Well...

 

 

 

Same could be said for Columbus (Hilltop, Lincoln Village, etc going from white to Latino), Dayton (East Dayton, specifically), Cincinnati (Lower Price Hill, East Price Hill), Baltimore's Eastside (Nick Sobotka to Mexican within the past 15 years), Indianapolis, Nashville, Philadelphia (South Philly in particular), and basically any mid-sized city in eastern Pennsylvania.  I'm presuming the "typical" white yuppie/hipster is more "at ease" with African-Americans, which is more thought of as living in urban areas/hip hop/graffiti/music versus white blue-collar Appalachian as defined as more rural stereotypes, not exactly fitting the "city lifestyle." 

 

Or maybe white folks have those white folks in their families and want to get away from other white folks.  I dunno.  For the record, my maternal grandfather's family is from Black Appalachia deep in the heart of West Virginia and they ALL took the train to Ohio in the 1940's, as did many Appalachian black folks.  Hell, ask Steve Harvey...

Yes, many these white folks are trying to escape the crassness of their local backgrounds. Too many guys "at home" think they're Stone Cold Steve Austin or John Cena while lacking the self-awareness and polish that those entertainers possess and scare other white people off with their bullyish ways. They don't want to have kids right away and of course see little economic opportunity there even though in a lot of places actually exists in the trades and through infrastructure jobs. They don't like the overwhelming nu-metal/nu-country culture and don't care about NASCAR, fishing or guns. "Wiggers" wore on them in the past even though they barely exist now or are the severely watered-down James Harden/Lebron versions that have heavy hipster influence in a perverse way that only white people could find. The early-mid 2000s are way over but nobody got the memo out in these areas.

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

 

 

Getting back to the development side of things, will Trump Unleash the Fury and just dump all the mortgage regulations (a la Bush II) that keep immediate-occupancy properties sky high? If all of a sudden speculative building of single-familys was once again allowed and inventories bloated I'd imagine upward-price pressure would come off everywhere. Will Congress let him? If it happened, would the banks even do it again? Even if current prices are somewhat unfair to new buyers, many of these older properties that have been sitting vacant or undervalued all over the Midwest do need to fill back up badly before sprawl building returns on a large scale.

 

Cincinnati has thousands upon thousands of traditional mid-block vacant lots from Reading Rd. west to the West Side.  But instead of new construction happening there, developers are more often finding odd strips of land on the east side or tearing down "starter" homes.  

 

8 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Keep in mind that the whole discussion really revolved around the fact that hipsters have an unnecessary and unnatural aversion to these folk considering their proclivities toward gentrification of neighborhoods that currently contain other groups.

 

Im sorry, I strongly disagree with this premise. Northside is the perfect counterexample- it was known as a center for Appalachians or the white working class or whatever you wanna call them and it started revitalizing or gentrifying or whatever you wanna call it with actual hipsters or culturally middle class types or whatever you wanna call them.  Fairfax is another good example- there’s some very modest homes there but upper middle class people are moving there because it’s attached to Mariemont school district. 

 

I think many factors are at play when a neighborhood starts “gentrifying”- quality and condition of housing stock, proximity to jobs, proximity to other wealthy neighborhoods, highway access, school district, municipal government, quality or potential of business district, parks, etc. If “gentrification” by “hipster” seems to happen mostly to minority neighborhoods (and studies actually show this isn’t the case) it could be that these neighborhoods have several inherently desirable characteristics but were artificially brought and kept in poverty by redlining and the bank lending policies it brought. 

 

 

This is completely anecdotal, but I spent a lot of time shopping and driving through Newport/Covington, going to movies at NOTL, etc. I swear on my life the amount of times that tough white dudes talked s*** to me out of nowhere, yelled at me, etc. was astounding. I was considering looking seriously at cheaper homes in Bellevue, etc. but there is a lot of hostility it seems in those neighborhoods for new people, maybe I am completley wrong. Just had gotten a hostile vibe in a lot of areas. One time I was with my fiance at the time at the Target in Newport, and a white guy shopping was screaming at these two little black boys who were playing around on cart. I thought he was their dad at first, yelling at them saying "Get out of the store if you are just going to be f****** around! What are you trying to do, steal things!? Hasn't your mother or grandma taught you any manners!?", it was a massive scene, the poor kids walked out of their almost crying and their mom finally came out. The two young boys were probably 7-10 years old. I wish I would have said something but it seemed like the dude more than likely had a gun and was drunk or something, but he looked to me like a middle class, 45-50 year old. It still makes me mad to this day. Maybe other people get that vibe in NKY where as in areas like Walnut Hills, most everyone are very fine folks and say hi to you, how is your day, etc.

 

This all said, most of my interactions in NKY were very cordial and people are very nice and homely, but it was those few times things like that happened. Also had one time at NOTL by myself in the parking ramp leaving a movie where three dudes were yelling obscenities at me, trying to get me to fight for some reason, calling me homosexual slurs, it really scared me, luckily I was next to my car and took off right away.  I had the sense not to let me temper get the best of me, because I had heard recently right after from my colleagues husband that he had been stabbed at NOTL when I told him the story, when he apparently parked too close to someone in the ramp and the guy freaked out on him and started pushing him, he pushed him back then the guy stabbed him twice in the stomach. By the way, I am a 6'1" 230 lb. Iowa boy, maybe I come off different and they can see I am different than they are, but that is some of the vibes I have gotten from NKY.

I would say NOTL is not very representative of any particular community. It's a regional draw for both sides of the river. 

I think part of the phenomenon here is that upwardly mobile white folks (me for example, having grown up in Appalachian Brown County and attended high school in Clinton County because Wilmington had more resources and cultural institutions) can "other" poverty as being separate from impacting them, their families, or people like them by gentrifying a neighborhood of people who don't look like them. If an upwardly mobile white person were to live in, let's say, Lower Price Hill, they would have to confront the fact that poor people are white too. You already know the factoid, "White people make up the largest share of food stamps and Medicaid recipients, but as a share of the U.S. population, they utilize proportionally less than other groups." Living in Lower Price Hill, an upwardly mobile white person would be confronted with this every day. Living in a black or Hispanic community, they can distance themselves from that reality. Love it or hate it, "Hillbilly Elegy" covers a lot of this ground. It also can't go without saying that many of these terms, white, black, hispanic, latinx, hillbilly, etc all are loaded terms that in this conversation are being used without a norm or common ground of use rooted in any sociological framework. Instead of "White People," when I can I like to use Ta'Nahesi Coates' phrase, "people who believe they are white" because it refers to a pre-assimilated world where Catholics, Germans, Irish, Italians, etc were also all "othered" by a dominant WASP-identifying American culture. 

13 hours ago, edale said:

 

I'd like to see examples of where gentrification is occurring in Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati...maybe Louisville and Nashville, too. Those cities all have decent Appalachian and Black communities. If I had to bet, I would say gentrification is happening more in the Black parts of town than in the Appalachian areas. 

 

 

Well in Baltimore lots of Appalachians settled in Hampden and Pigtown and those neighborhoods have been gentrifying for awhile. I'm not sure where the Appalachian neighborhoods are in those other cities. 

 

Quote

And to your point about there being nothing to walk to in Norwood, what is there to walk to in Evanston or Madisonville? Even Walnut Hills has very little in the way of businesses to walk to, yet all three of those neighborhoods are on the upswing and seeing decent levels of reinvestment, while Norwood (outside of Rookwood) continues to stagnate.

 

Evanston is walkable to both East Walnut Hills/Walnut Hills and to O'bryonville (which is actually in Evanston). I disagree that there aren't things to walk to in those neighborhoods. There are several bars and restaurants in each and there is very visible construction of new mixed use development in Walnut Hills. There's nothing to walk to in Norwood and no indication that they are going to remake their commercial areas to be more walkable anytime soon. 

 

Quote

Hipsters do often proclaim to love Bluegrass and other Appalachian cultural elements, but we all know people can love the culture and be intolerant of the people. 

 

Sure, but this doesn't square with my personal experiences. Lots of hipster types have Appalachian roots. I also know a few who have moved to places like Athens or Morgantown. Those are college towns, so not the same as moving to Meigs County or Clarksburg, but you still have to interact with Appalachian folks on a daily basis. 

2 hours ago, thebillshark said:

 

Im sorry, I strongly disagree with this premise. Northside is the perfect counterexample- it was known as a center for Appalachians or the white working class or whatever you wanna call them and it started revitalizing or gentrifying or whatever you wanna call it with actual hipsters or culturally middle class types or whatever you wanna call them.  Fairfax is another good example- there’s some very modest homes there but upper middle class people are moving there because it’s attached to Mariemont school district. 

 

I think many factors are at play when a neighborhood starts “gentrifying”- quality and condition of housing stock, proximity to jobs, proximity to other wealthy neighborhoods, highway access, school district, municipal government, quality or potential of business district, parks, etc. If “gentrification” by “hipster” seems to happen mostly to minority neighborhoods (and studies actually show this isn’t the case) it could be that these neighborhoods have several inherently desirable characteristics but were artificially brought and kept in poverty by redlining and the bank lending policies it brought. 

 

 

 

 

You also have to think about how "intense" the vibe was before hipster/yuppie gentrification happened (or didn't happen). Also, the level of abandonment. In the case of Fairfax and Oakley the vibes weren't really all that intense. There wasn't junk all over everyone's yards, no giant chain link fenced areas with a million dogs, people yelling across the street at each other, brake jobs being done in the road and all that. I don't know if Northside was like that; it would have been before my time. If an area sits relatively dormant for a while like Camp Washington has that makes it ripe for yupster action as well. Up in Columbus, we have vast swaths of the city on the West and South Sides that hipsters have declared "just the tip and no further" those tips being East Franklinton on the West and the northern part of Parsons Ave. on the South. This leaves miles and miles of these two Sides trapped in the Uncool Crescent for decades into the future.

 

APPROPRIATE

 

I agree, I disagree. I don't think we need to put all of Norwood in one bucket... but let's compare it to another enclave, St. Bernard, where the whole place is walkability oriented. If St. Bernard were in the City of Cincinnati, I would definitely consider it as a place to live/buy a house. It's also a working class city, is it not? Is it being gentrified?

Cincinnati is blessed with NBDs to the point of being spoiled in the sense that a lot of NBDs get left behind.

There was some hardcore hillbilly crap going on in Northside and Cumminsville in the 80s and 90s.  When I was a bus boy at the now-closed Mt. Airy Frisch's in the 90s, the staff was entirely black or Apalachian except for myself and one Mexican cook.  I was the only middle-class Catholic out of 50+ employees.  Almost everyone lived in Bahama Terrace or at the bottom of the Colerain Hill.  They either took the bus pooled up and down the hill in a rusted-out 1970s wannabe-Cadillac.  There was always drama around who was driving who to and from the restaurant.

 

At one point we ran out of maternity uniforms because every single waitress except one was pregnant.  Somebody got the retarded girl pregnant who did janitorial stuff. The 19 year-old hillbilly girl who ran the place like a nazi camp commander had arm pit hair.  I remember the manager who hired me had one of those cheesy wispy mustaches and I had the hardest time keeping a straight face during that fateful interview one afternoon in a booth next to the salad bar. 

 

Oh, and everybody smoked.  EVERYBODY. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

I agree, I disagree. I don't think we need to put all of Norwood in one bucket... but let's compare it to another enclave, St. Bernard, where the whole place is walkability oriented. If St. Bernard were in the City of Cincinnati, I would definitely consider it as a place to live/buy a house. It's also a working class city, is it not? Is it being gentrified?

 

It's definitely on the upswing. I've lived in St.Bernard for 3 years now and have watched the housing prices appreciate considerably. It just really needs an up(per) scale restaurant or bar to really put it on the map, because most people have no idea where St. Bernard is. The Wiedemann brewery is great and I love going there, but it isn't "hip" enough to really be a huge draw. Taft Brewpourium is, but it's in SPV and too far from our business district. 

The new Wiedemann brewery is great, it's a unique space unlike any other Greater Cincinnati brewery. The interior reminds of the old Quatman Cafe in Norwood before they built the current one that feels like a generic sports bar. They have some work to do on improving their beers, though.

10 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Same could be said for Columbus (Hilltop, Lincoln Village, etc going from white to Latino), Dayton (East Dayton, specifically), Cincinnati (Lower Price Hill, East Price Hill), Baltimore's Eastside (Nick Sobotka to Mexican within the past 15 years), Indianapolis, Nashville, Philadelphia (South Philly in particular), and basically any mid-sized city in eastern Pennsylvania.  I'm presuming the "typical" white yuppie/hipster is more "at ease" with African-Americans, which is more thought of as living in urban areas/hip hop/graffiti/music versus white blue-collar Appalachian as defined as more rural stereotypes, not exactly fitting the "city lifestyle." 

 

Or maybe white folks have those white folks in their families and want to get away from other white folks.  I dunno.  For the record, my maternal grandfather's family is from Black Appalachia deep in the heart of West Virginia and they ALL took the train to Ohio in the 1940's, as did many Appalachian black folks.  Hell, ask Steve Harvey...

 

So South Philly is an interesting one, because it is a vast neighborhood. Traditionally the east side of Broad was populated by blue collar whites and west of Broad was a black neighborhood. It is true that Hispanic immigrants have moved into a lot of the traditionally white areas like the Italian Market and Lower Moyamensing, but it is also true that some of the areas east of Broad were also the first to start gentrifying (Bella Vista, Queen Village, Passyunk Square). West of Broad was slower to gentrify. Graduate Hospital did gentrify pretty rapidly because it was so close to Center City, but Point Breeze was one of the last areas of South Philly to gentrify and is one of the most predominantly African American neighborhoods in South Philly. So it kinda turns the idea that hipsters/young professionals are more likely to move into poor black areas than poor white areas on its head. In South Philly, it seems like the primary indicator of whether an area would gentrify first was proximity to Center City and commercial areas. 

29 minutes ago, Dresden11 said:

 

It's definitely on the upswing. I've lived in St.Bernard for 3 years now and have watched the housing prices appreciate considerably. It just really needs an up(per) scale restaurant or bar to really put it on the map, because most people have no idea where St. Bernard is. The Wiedemann brewery is great and I love going there, but it isn't "hip" enough to really be a huge draw. Taft Brewpourium is, but it's in SPV and too far from our business district. 

 

One thing we heard from our realtor when we were looking to buy was that she had a lot of clients who would not consider St. Bernard or Norwood because they wanted to pay their taxes and have a right to vote in elections in the City of Cincinnati. We totally got that and agreed. There's a big back to the city movement right now and I think a lot of folks my age (early 30s) want to have a say in who is running the city and, therefore, don't even consider those enclaves. I like St. Bernard, and if it was in the City of Cincinnati it would've been on our radar. But it isn't, so it wasn't. 

As somebody who grew up in Norwood, they have a lot of work to do in a lot of areas but sadly I don't think they really care. 

@DEPACincy I was thinking of Evanston west of 71, but even the 5 Points/walnut Hills HS area is a pretty far walk to Madison and Woodburn, and quite a lengthy walk to O’Brionville, no?

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

One thing we heard from our realtor when we were looking to buy was that she had a lot of clients who would not consider St. Bernard or Norwood because they wanted to pay their taxes and have a right to vote in elections in the City of Cincinnati. We totally got that and agreed. There's a big back to the city movement right now and I think a lot of folks my age (early 30s) want to have a say in who is running the city and, therefore, don't even consider those enclaves. I like St. Bernard, and if it was in the City of Cincinnati it would've been on our radar. But it isn't, so it wasn't. 

 

The other thing about the city neighborhoods vs. independent enclaves is that city neighborhoods really do have access to more resources.  For example if Cheviot ever wanted to update Harrison Avenue with a complete street plan or update Harvest Home Park it would struggle mightily to find the funding. 

 

Perhaps if Norwood was part of the city and had access to city resources and personnel there’s a chance Surrey Square would have turned out differently with street facing mixed use development that could have greatly aided Norwood’s revitalization (although it still would have been forward thinking to do that before Plan Cincinnati came out.) 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by thebillshark

While I don't disagree with you, somehow St. Bernard is able to do this. All that tax revenue from P&G's campus?

11 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

While I don't disagree with you, somehow St. Bernard is able to do this. All that tax revenue from P&G's campus?

 

Yes of course- these smaller municipalities are in better position the more assets and jobs they have within their limits.  That’s similar to how Downtown and Uptown support city neighborhoods. But a lot of municipalities surrounding Cincinnati don’t have these assets, instead just have a lot of dated, small square footage working class housing that has fallen out of favor. 

I totally get the hesitation about St. Bernard and not being able to vote in city elections. That was my only hesitation as well. I ended up going with St. Bernard because I got a great house for 1/2 of what it would cost me in Northside, Oakley, Mt. Lookout etc. Plus, as was sort of mentioned above, St. Bernard has great city services (although budget issues have ended some as well). My trash is picked up twice per week, recycling one time per week, the police will monitor your alarm system for free, free dumpster drop off and pick up, there's a great community rec center, etc.

 

I did hear a rumor that St. Bernard's brand new police/fire station was built at Vine/Mitchell in the event that St. Bernard was annexed into the city. I seriously doubt that will happen though. Elmwood Place has been trying to get annexed by St. Bernard, but St. Bernard doesn't want them. Perhaps we'll see Elmwood get annexed by Cincinnati in the future.

 

 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by Dresden11

I remember reading somewhere (maybe in the must-read for Cincinnatians, "Contested Ground") That Lincoln Heights had claimed land that would have provided the historically black community with an industrial tax base that just about everyone in the area agreed was "in Lincoln Heights" but the *trigger warning* racist white-supremacist county government "disagreed" and that land was determined to be within the boundary of Evendale or something.

This topic has really gotten off track in the past couple days... Just saying. 

9 minutes ago, Dresden11 said:

I totally get the hesitation about St. Bernard and not being able to vote in city elections. That was my only hesitation as well. I ended up going with St. Bernard because I got a great house for 1/2 of what it would cost me in Northside, Oakley, Mt. Lookout etc. Plus, as was sort of mentioned above, St. Bernard has great city services (although budget issues have ended some as well). My trash is picked up twice per week, recycling one time per week, the police will monitor your alarm system for free, free dumpster drop off and pick up, there's a great community rec center, etc.

 

I did hear a rumor that St. Bernard's brand new police/fire station was built at Vine/Mitchell in the event that St. Bernard was annexed into the city. I seriously doubt that will happen though. Elmwood Place has been trying to get annexed by St. Bernard, but St. Bernard doesn't want them. Perhaps we'll see Elmwood get annexed by Cincinnati in the future.

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about Elmwood going the Cincinnati-way before it was annexed by St. Bernard. They do share a school district and they are building a new consolidated preK-12 as we speak.