Here is a pic from the Spiderman movie thread.

 

From here, it does not look like windows are needed, maybe perfered....

 

I don't know

 

I wonder how the new facade will look like.  Personally, I hope they keep to the older street style and use something like the top floor of the building on the far right (three arched windows per "square" for most of the floors).  After the new brick facade for the incoming bang and clatter building (I forget the address), it seems like brick artisans are not going away.  Either way though...hell yeah for this project! 

lewarctj, with parking on the first floor of 668 Euclid, will there be a publicly accessible street presence along the building's Euclid's frontage (retail, restaurant, cafe, etc)? If so, how much of the frontage?

lewarctj, with parking on the first floor of 668 Euclid, will there be a publicly accessible street presence along the building's Euclid's frontage (retail, restaurant, cafe, etc)? If so, how much of the frontage?

 

it is my understanding as plans exist today, that the new parking will mostly be below the main level with some parking on the 1st floor towards the rear of the building.  There will be first floor retail in excess of 40,000s.f. on the first level fronting Euclid.  Wheter it will be "arcade" style or all individual entrances, I'm not positive.  There is no final plans on how that will be split up or what the desired tenants will consist of.

 

 

.

how tall is this building going to be?

lots of people coming in to do residencies at CWRU want downtown rental so there is a market I dont think we shoud ignore. But it's also true that condos are good there. I like the idea of mixed use, and the Truman Building is really cool architecturally; even the rental units inside are cool. 

how tall is this building going to be?

 

52...  pay attention please...  :wink2:

Thanks for the response, lewarctj.

Did anyone notice the blurb in Section B of the PD today?  The potential mystery buyer (clearly K & D) and the seller (Goldbergs) are apparently being quite clever in their effort to approve the demolition of the Dollar Bank building for parking access for the 668 Building.  They are touting a plan to extend East 6th Street to Prospect and then redevelop the new short extension in an area similar to East 4th Street.  Not a big fan of tearing down any building on this part of Euclid for any reason...but it the developers successfully convince the city to approve the demolition for this type of plan, my big fear is that such a project couple languish for years if not done right and all you would have would be a barren street.

^when I first heard about the Dollar Bank demo idea, the idea centered around opening up a corridor so that the shops in the arcade would have street frontage. You can try to make sense of that. But...that was coming from Stark. Maybe Stark heard it from K & D. hmm...

^Wow, you really have some good connections.

^when I first heard about the Dollar Bank demo idea, the idea centered around opening up a corridor so that the shops in the arcade would have street frontage. You can try to make sense of that.

 

Wow, very strange.  For the developer, I can understand the appeal of a street to open up window possibilities for the west side of 668 (cheaper than an internal courtyard I would think), but really hate the idea of bringing all of the Dollar Bank building down.  Maybe bring the back part down (looks like it has a rear annex from the aerial photo?), make a courtyard and push a pedestrian connection through the ground floor of Dollar Bank.  I'm still pretty pissed at MRN for the valet surface lots they carved into E4th and Prospect and don't want to see that crap on Euclid too.

^And what, EUCLID AVENUE isn't a prominent enough address for retail so they have to carve another street through to Prospect?  These developers are something else.

let's not lose sight of the big picture!  the fact anything is being done to the Dollar Bank building is a blessing.  next to the marcel bruer building, it is the city's biggest eye sore

^And what, EUCLID AVENUE isn't a prominent enough address for retail so they have to carve another street through to Prospect?  These developers are something else.

 

If anything, it would be preferable for street life to break up that superblock with another E. 4th-like alley.  While the Euclid and Colonial arcades provide cut-throughs, there still is at least 700 feet of unrelieved storefront and parking between E. 9th and E. 4th (the E. 8th "alley" doesn't count).

 

However, if the cut through only served cars with a very, very narrow sidewalk, then I withdraw my support.

 

Is there any preservation case for the Dollar Bank building?  Is it particularly unique or representative of its time in a way that other existing buildings (in presumably better condition) aren't?

Is the vacant office building on prospect next to the atrium garage part of the sale? That building would obviously need to come down as well if East 6th were extended. I personally don't mind the Dollar Bank building coming down. Frankly I think it's ugly and has been empty for years. However, tearing down 2 building is going too far. I always thought the building on prospect would make for a nice, affordable condo conversion like the Pointe at Gateway.

Is there any preservation case for the Dollar Bank building?  Is it particularly unique or representative of its time in a way that other existing buildings (in presumably better condition) aren't?

 

I would say definitely yes.

 

I understand your point about the "superblock", but don't think 700 feet is really such a long stretch.  And given current streetfront vacancy, I'm not sure creating more streetfront is really such a great thing.

 

^Good question about how that Prospect building fits into this.

I actually think this is a good idea, and is why I was asking lewarctj exactly what properties are a part of the project.  Of course, the big "if" is what they do with the facades along the new street, and how the new street balances its role as an auto access with its role as a small retail street.

 

Straphanger- 700 feet is a very long block for a pedestrian.  I've seen urban design studies that peg the ideal at somewhere near 2-300 feet, assuming small easy to cross streets (which East 4th/6th/8th would be).

 

Dollar Bank would be a loss, as it is a unique example of 50's modernism with it's unusual overhanging facade, inset entryway, and penthouse.  But I wouldn't feel any loss from losing the office building on Prospect directly behind it.  I would imagine that some sort of infill would make sense on the remainder of the lot from that demo.  Better yet, demo the office building and the garage, and infill all the way from the new East 6th to East 8th.  OK, I'm just dreaming now.

the fact anything is being done to the Dollar Bank building is a blessing.  next to the marcel bruer building, it is the city's biggest eye sore

 

you say eyesore, I say unpolished gem.  I am quite fond of this building.  I used to walk past it often when I worked downtown.  I love the facade.  it is an under-appreciated style, I won't argue.  that said, I think decisions on the fate of buildings like this should have less to do with fashion.  it shouldn't matter that it is ugly or beautiful.  the potential should matter.  I am an optimist, I see the empty building as a lot half full.  tear down the building and you don't even have a glass to put your water in.  ha! 

^Dollar Bank is like urban 50s hojo on hgh- I definitely dig it and think it could make an awesome, swank rehab (ragarcia clearly agrees).  I would love to see it incorporated into the project.

 

X, I'm pretty leery of "ideal" block lengths- though I'm certainly aware of such studies.  Maybe my point of reference is just warped after walking down so many 900+ft NYC blocks (the typical block length between numbered avenues).  It's those very long blocklengths that drove development of Cleveland's wonderful arcades and is a bit of a defining characteristic of our downtown (the good parts anyway).  They also help compensate for our city's 100 foot wide Avenue ROWs.

 

I'm just not so psyched to sacrifice a very distinctive little building for this reason- especially given the pretty big "if" you point out.  But I'd be perfectly happy to see a new ped connection pushed through.  In fact...I'm pretty sure that 668, when it was the Taylor Department Store, itself had an arcade between Prospect and Euclid, but can't verify that from here.

For the record, here's the blurb.

 

Tipoff:

 

Another alley:

 

East Fourth between Prospect and Euclid avenues is the coolest street in town, chock full of restaurants and clubs. How about a cool East Sixth? City Planning Director Bob Brown reports that he sat recently with David Goldberg, whose family owns the old department store and office building at 668 Euclid; developer Doug Price, whose K&D Group is reportedly close to buying the building; and downtown property owner John Carney, whose Landmark Management operates the nearby Colonial Arcade, 530 Euclid Ave. The two properties are separated on Euclid by an old building that houses a Dollar Bank branch. Talks centered on demolishing the bank building and punching through to Prospect, creating an alley and more development opportunities. Brown said the talks were just conceptual, but he's intrigued by the idea.

X, I'm pretty leery of "ideal" block lengths- though I'm certainly aware of such studies.  Maybe my point of reference is just warped after walking down so many 900+ft NYC blocks (the typical block length between numbered avenues).  It's those very long blocklengths that drove development of Cleveland's wonderful arcades and is a bit of a defining characteristic of our downtown (the good parts anyway).  They also help compensate for our city's 100 foot wide Avenue ROWs.

 

The long block lengths in Downtown Cleveland are actually a more recent development than that.  If you look at early maps, pre-streetcar era, you will see much smaller blocks.  Many of the smaller streets have been vacated to accomodate development pressure for large lots scaled to the development needs of large corporations or government entities.  Others have been demoted to "alleys".  The arcades themselves were built on top of two vacated ROW's- East 4th and East 6th.

I'd have to see some pictures of what this would look like before I can decide if I like it. That whole stretch of Euclid is a disaster between the Halle Building and Colonial Arcade. It makes me unhappy.

ECTP = Worthless...  More new investment on Euclid provides more evidence that Feagler is out of touch:

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20071119/FREE/311190067

 

Pittsburgh VC outfit has eyes for Baker building

iNetworks sees commercialization potential in existing companies, region as a whole

 

By CHUCK SODER

 

4:30 am, November 19, 2007

 

A Pittsburgh venture capital firm is opening a Cleveland office because it plans to begin making investments in early-stage life sciences companies in Northeast Ohio and throughout the state.

 

The firm, iNetworks Advisors Inc., was scheduled to open the office, located in the Baker Electric Building at Euclid Avenue and East 71st Street, today, Nov. 19. The firm wants to be closer to institutions in Cleveland and throughout Ohio that are producing an increasing number of life science technologies worthy of investment, said Charlie Schliebs, cofounder and managing director of iNetworks.

X, I'm pretty leery of "ideal" block lengths- though I'm certainly aware of such studies.  Maybe my point of reference is just warped after walking down so many 900+ft NYC blocks (the typical block length between numbered avenues).  It's those very long blocklengths that drove development of Cleveland's wonderful arcades and is a bit of a defining characteristic of our downtown (the good parts anyway).  They also help compensate for our city's 100 foot wide Avenue ROWs.

 

The long block lengths in Downtown Cleveland are actually a more recent development than that.  If you look at early maps, pre-streetcar era, you will see much smaller blocks.  Many of the smaller streets have been vacated to accomodate development pressure for large lots scaled to the development needs of large corporations or government entities.  Others have been demoted to "alleys".  The arcades themselves were built on top of two vacated ROW's- East 4th and East 6th.

 

Good point- my historical memory is pretty short.  I guess I'm just irked by the thought of losing Dollar Bank :( .  I'm also a little unsure that what downtown needs is even more storefronts to fill, but maybe that's not what K&D really had in mind.  I wouldn't be bummed at all though if a new little street were carved out of the parking lots and deck to the east of 668...as you said, it's fun to dream.

 

Your point about the lost cross streets and the earlier reference in this thread to the John Hartness Brown Building (one of Eli Mann's) inspired me to flip back to the pages in the great Eric Johannesen Cleveland Architecture history book (I'm sure lots of folks on this board own it) that cover it.  Man was that a cool building when first put up.

A VC firm wanting to move businesses to Cleveland?!  That would be quite a reversal!

  I just got back from the Gateway Design Review meeting.  First off... The Bang and Clatter is indeed going in the first floor of the brick building of the WT Grant lofts (technically the Baker building... actually just saw an original photo of this building, this is actually only about a third of what was originally there. This beautiful brick facade once stretched east all the way to the entrance of the WT Grant Lofts).  On a quick side note looks like the space they are clearing out to the east of this next to Jimmy John's is where Maron is moving their leasing office which is currently on east 4th... that space is only about 700 square feet.  The Bang & Clatter is going to be about 8,000 square feet on the interior which should accomodate about 100 people.  There will be a vertical scrim / mesh banner that will be located in the middle of the building spanning the 2nd and 3rd floors. This banner (reading: The bang and the clatter Theatre Company) will be washed with light.  The lower portion of the building will have a signage area about 4' in height with 1" thcik aluminum letters, reading: sometimes in the silence... (which is the name of the theatre) below this pillars that align with the 5 vertical brick elements above, and inbetween these large glass windows that will be used to display production posters.  main colors of the store front are maroon and black.  They are hoping to open by February 1st... which seems a little agressive to me, but power to them.  Design was approved.  I have a rendering which i will try to scan and post... but probably not until Friday.  I have about 6-10 christmas ales that need consumed after work tonight.

  Also regarding the 668 conversation above.  I had a pretty lengthy discussion with some people about it this AM.  At this point the 668 project and the dollar bank demolition are really 2 separate projects.  The 668 renovation is moving forward.  The developer who is buying 668 from goldberg is not crazy about the idea of that alley, but is listening to the idea. Stark would like to take down dollar bank and create this new retail alley... but take a second and bring 668 up on google maps and look at the arial layout of the siteplan (satelite image).  There are a ton of hurdles with this idea.  Mainly note that 668 euclid does not line up perfectly straight.  The prospect side of this building (and they are considered the same building) essentially blocks where this new alley would go... so to create the new alley you have to take away about a third of the prospect side of the 668 building... you do that and the tax credits go poof.  or at least a large chunk of them... 

I have about 6-10 christmas ales that need consumed after work tonight.

 

^1st things 1st!

 

Thanks for the info.  You paint a nice picture with your narrative recap of B&C's exterior.  It sounds great and I think I can picture it!  I'd still love to see those images, though, so sober up and scan, scan, scan!

Stark would like to take down dollar bank and create this new retail alley...

 

This sounds like what Stark "envisions" as part of his project in the WD. With all the retail planned for Pesht why is he involved with this?

It fits in with his "Y Cleveland" plan, which stretches along Prospect and through Gateway to around E. 17th.

 

Here's a "bird's eye" aerial of the 668/Dollar Bank site, looking north from Prospect.  It looks like they'd have to take out the substantial building on Prospect (as JMC mentioned earlier).  I do think this would be a big loss for Prospect and a potential rehab project.  I'd like to see more of the devastation remedied (Hippodrome turned surface lot, adjacent to 668) before any additional demo is proposed.

 

It looks like they'd have to take out the substantial building on Prospect (as JMC mentioned earlier).

 

As McCleveland mentioned, the Prospect frontage is actually considered part of the 668 Euclid building. I never knew that until about a year ago, when I did some research on this property.

 

so to create the new alley you have to take away about a third of the prospect side of the 668 building... you do that and the tax credits go poof.  or at least a large chunk of them... 

 

Are you sure that part of the building is historic? The facade certainly looks newer than the Atrium's facade, but they may have just tacked that on in the 1960s-70s a la the Eli Mann buildings. If it's not historic, they could demolish this section of the building without losing their tax credits.

Those parking lots across from National City Bank really tick me off!!

Wanna be really p!ssed, check out what USED to be there:

 

I was expecting to see pictures of the Hippodrome Theater but nothing showed up on my screen!

 

EDIT: Ah, there it is!

so to create the new alley you have to take away about a third of the prospect side of the 668 building... you do that and the tax credits go poof.  or at least a large chunk of them... 

 

Are you sure that part of the building is historic? The facade certainly looks newer than the Atrium's facade, but they may have just tacked that on in the 1960s-70s a la the Eli Mann buildings. If it's not historic, they could demolish this section of the building without losing their tax credits.

 

  As explained to me this morning (by the individual who works with people around downtown to help secure these credits) because that is considered part of the building, demolishing that substantial a portion of the building could really damage the use of the tax credits. You can restore things to orginal condition but you can't alter them... that's why Eli Mann can take down the current facade... to restore the original building which is underneath. He couldn't tear down half of one of those buildings and still get the credits...

 

speaking of i was told he's going to be peeling off some of the metal face of one of those buildings in the next month or so to see what condition that building is in.

Is the Prospect side a more recent addition than the Euclid side, though? If so, it could come down while keeping the tax credits in tact.

  On a quick side note looks like the space they are clearing out to the east of this next to Jimmy John's is where Maron is moving their leasing office which is currently on east 4th... that space is only about 700 square feet. 

 

Funny that MRN is moving into a building that is not theirs.....

giving a try and posting the bang and clatter rendering (errr... photoshopping)

 

  On a quick side note looks like the space they are clearing out to the east of this next to Jimmy John's is where Maron is moving their leasing office which is currently on east 4th... that space is only about 700 square feet. 

 

 

Funny that MRN is moving into a building that is not theirs.....

 

  Apparently Marron controls the first floor retail on all of the entire stretch that WT Grant is on while the other developer (whose name i can't remember) controls the living spaces above.

PS... sorry i blow at figuring out how to post an image.  I really have never had to work with them... at one of these meets one of you can teach me how not to be an idiot.

The developer of the 668 building that may tear down the Dollar Bank building may do so for the parking as I indicated earlier.  If there is dicussions with a third party for some sort of retail alley, I'm not aware of that.  They appear to be two separate issues. 

I know this project (projects) has been discussed before but I not sure on which thread.

 

I noticed that work is proceeding on the vacant building next to the Agora on Euclid (about 4 stories just past 40th going east...behind the vacant lot fronting Euclid where a building burned down about 2 years ago).  In addition to gutting the building (all the windows are out) they seem to be adding at least one additonal story.  Does anybody know what is going on here?  Also, is it related to the building that is (was) suppose to front Euclid (I believe a law firm was going to build there once Euclid Corridor construction was completed if that is still the case).  Thanks.

Here ya go!

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7901.0

^Thanks.  I just glanced at the thread 'cause I have to run but I did not see any reference to the older building they are working on now, just a discussion of the building fronting Euclid (again maybe there is a mention, I just don't have time to read it in detail).  Again, is the older building in anyway related to the newer three story building where the law firm is going.  If not does anybody know what is going in the re-habbed building as it will clearly be completed first?  Glad to see work on the vacant building.

Great stuff! Hope they're successful.

When did they put up those interstate signs on Euclid (at E. 4th and E. 9th)?  Those look HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Photos please!

Sorry, I couldn't...only had my camera phone on me and it was a little too dark for them to come out.  Maybe tomorrow (although I'll bet someone else beats me to it).

 

It's really THAT bad.  You're gonna puke when you see them.  Just walk/ride/drive down Euclid from Public Square, you can't miss them.  One is completely blocking the Corner Alley signage.

Are you kidding???  I haven't seen them, but I can imagine how bad they would be...  You have to fight tooth and nail to get a sign for a local attraction on an interstate, but apparently putting up a huge sign for the interstate on a local road is ok?  I guess I have to wait and see...