And does anyone really think that someone from Beechwood or Westlake would drive into downtown, past crocker park and legacy village, to purchase their new love seat?

 

Yes, I would drive downtown right past Legacy Village to purchase my new love seat as there isn't anywhere to purchase a love seat in Legacy Village (unless you get lucky and the one love seat they have at Arhaus is the one you want).  Which was the whole point of the study...lack of furniture retail around here.

 

 

I don't know how I feel about the furniture focus yet, but the "why would anyone drive past Legacy Village or CP to come downtown to buy ___" can be applied to any product, not just furniture, so I'm not sure where that gets us.  Unless we expect lower Euclid to fill up just with pioneering high end clothing stores without suburban outlets, which, given McCleveland's experience, sounds incredible unlikely.

 

So, if not furniture, what do people want to see downtown and why do you think it's feasible?

 

Boy, what a bunch of sourpusses! I like the idea, and I think if it were done right that people *would* come in from the suburbs. If Euclid Avenue offers a bunch of furniture stores in one area, with some that aren't available at Crocker or Eaton, why wouldn't people check it out? It's the same concept as the design district -- get unique places within walking distance of each other to save people time and travel. God knows people drive from all over the region to the Bedford auto mile to comparison shop.

Of course, I'd want to see other uses mixed in too to serve the growing residential population downtown.

Which was the whole point of the study...lack of furniture retail around here.

 

I would assume that the study was performed to see if there is some sort of retail niche that downtown could fill.

 

And does anyone really think that someone from Beechwood or Westlake would drive into downtown, past crocker park and legacy village, to purchase their new love seat?

 

 

 

Yes, I would drive downtown right past Legacy Village to purchase my new love seat as there isn't anywhere to purchase a love seat in Legacy Village (unless you get lucky and the one love seat they have at Arhaus is the one you want).  Which was the whole point of the study...lack of furniture retail around here.

 

 

 

crate and barrel, no?

My interpretaion on this is that they are looking for furniture stores not currently in the market to place them in location in downtown, NOT to make a district or a block of store strickly selling furniture.

 

I didn't read anything that this would be strickly retail, this could also include show rooms and studios.

 

I don't like this idea.

 

Why?  Have you heard the proposal or seen plans?

I've seen this before in other downtowns, granted not the size of Cleveland, but I don't think it does anything for foot traffic. I've always imagined Euclid a little like 34th Street near Macy's. Sure, it's a little tacky, but the number of people is cool, and it has to be good for business. I just don't think furniture stores will do that.

Why wouldn't furniture stores be able to do this, especially since we don't know what stores they have spoken to.  Not aimed at you Jamiec, but I'm sick of people saying "we can't " instead of putting together logical reason on why something CAN work. 

 

That being said, it's in a built environment more similar to Asiatown or downtown along St. Clair. It would be interesting to see if similar businesses could withstand the rent requirements of lower Euclid.

That my question, why have a district of design and this "furniture" district in two seperate places?

 

This doesn't seem like the sort of high foot traffic use that will make Euclid Ave into the great street it should be.

Why?  I think these furniture stores are only part of the puzzle, not the end-all-be-all answer.

Its a piece of paper, Mr. Goldberg said. They can throw it away.

 

I agree completely.  over the years, how many millions of dollars have been wasted on these studies by out of town consultants on how to reinvent downtown?  Until there is a mass of residents living downtown there will be no demand for retail, furniture or otherwise.  And does anyone really think that someone from Beechwood or Westlake would drive into downtown, past crocker park and legacy village, to purchase their new love seat?

 

Where is this Beechwood??  :? :roll:  Why is it you think everything built is based on some suburbanites view of things, there are plenty of residents in the city of Cleveland that can afford to shop where ever we want.  I personally, and granted my version of "shopping" greatly varies from the general public, think that there can be high end and moderate stores all along Euclid.  We had them (in TC) before it was en vogue to live downtown or near downtown.  By bring in more amenties, downtown and the city (economically) as whole is much more attractive, to residents and tourists.

 

What does location have to do with anything?  When you go buy furniture, it has to be delivered.  Its rare that there are pieces in stock at a retail location.  Most likely your order is being fulfilled from a central warehouse.

 

Boy, what a bunch of sourpusses!

 

BINGO!

 

Hey guys...

 

Something is usually better than nothing. 

 

If there is talk about a furniture district in Euclid Avenue, then let's encourage it since it beats the vast amount of NOTHING that exists presently in much of EA.

David Goldberg is quoted as saying that he is really against the furniture concept. He is one of the most powerful members of the DCA. If he is a against it, then I have my doubts as to how much of an effort DCA will put into this.

sure he's against it, but what is he for!?!

Gee Mr. Goldberg, if you can't find a tenant for the retail space at your 515 Euclid parking deck at $20 per square foot, then maybe the price is too high? Wouldn't earning some money from the space and boosting activity downtown be in your best interest? How did these guys get rich anyway??

Im sure im thinking too big here, but i feel that lower Euclid Ave should try to model itself off of the 16th street mall in Denver Colorado. Its got everything from residential units, restaurants, cafes, coffee shops, businesses, retail, bowling, and a movie theater. I was in denver this summer and the streets, restaurants, and shops were all packed on a thursday afternoon. Denver is bigger than cleveland and all but its a nice thing to wish for. 

Im sure im thinking too big here, but i feel that lower Euclid Ave should try to model itself off of the 16th street mall in Denver Colorado. Its got everything from residential units, restaurants, cafes, coffee shops, businesses, retail, bowling, and a movie theater. I was in denver this summer and the streets, restaurants, and shops were all packed on a thursday afternoon. Denver is bigger than cleveland and all but its a nice thing to wish for. 

 

Welcome to the forum  :wave:

 

I disagree and belive that "planned" approach would be wrong!  Since when is metro Denver larger than metro Cleveland?

Thanks for the welcome! Ive been on UO for a few months now but this is my first time posting.

 

Population wise i believe metro denver has about 200,000+ more people than metro cleveland. I could be wrong though!

Thanks for the welcome! Ive been on UO for a few months now but this is my first time posting.

 

Population wise i believe metro denver has about 200,000+ more people than metro cleveland. I could be wrong though!

 

And you are....  There are approx. 2.4 mil in denver and Cleveland has approximately 2.9.

Thanks for the welcome! Ive been on UO for a few months now but this is my first time posting.

 

Population wise i believe metro denver has about 200,000+ more people than metro cleveland. I could be wrong though!

 

And you are....  There are approx. 2.4 mil in denver and Cleveland has approximately 2.9.

 

When i was there denver just seemed to be so much bigger than cleveland.

Why would you be against something like 16th street mall??

I'm not thrilled with this idea because I think it's boring and it's a foot traffic killer. I've never heard of anyone window shopping furniture. It's too expensive. Clothing stores can have pricey items, but they also have socks and underwear. That's just me. I think the idea just isn't sexy.

^I'm not too familiar with Denver as I've only driven through it. Maybe it seems bigger because of the mountains and how the terrain restricts development. Additionally, I believe the  2.9 figure is buoyed by including Akron (but I'm not sure).  The way that CSAs and MSAs are calculated can be pretty subjective.

Personally, I think Prospect would be better for a furniture "district." It already has 2 office furniture stores between East 9th and East 14th and there are several vacant storefronts. The May Co., Goldfish Army Navy, Prospect Place, Bottoms Up, Residence Inn etc. Also it is less congested than Euclid (no Silver Line) so customers would have an easier time loading up furniture.

^it would also have lower rents than Euclid (even though Euclid doesn't really deserve high rents at this point).

I'd support this furniture/design district on lower Euclid, especially if studies indicate the region is underserved for those goods and has a shot at earning "destination" shopping status. I kind of thought that was Legacy Village's strong point, but maybe there is room for competition.

 

I kind of thought that E.12th and the Galleria would make for a nice spot for furniture and housewares.

 

And what does that owner of 515 envison for his space exactly anyway? Right now it looks like great space in a great location.

Didn't 515 used to say, he had tenants lined up, but they were waiting until the euclid corridor was complete to get the official signature?

 

Well, we're waiting 515, ECP isn't that far away now.

If this district includes quite a few vintage furniture stores it would probably do quite well.  Antique dealers and mid century modern peddlers flock to Ohio from NYC and the east and buy up whatever they can and take it back and sell it for 3 or 4 times more.  Older midwestern cities are a boon for them..  I remember back in college working in a store briefly on Euclid ave, and the upstairs of the old office building it was in was stacked to the ceiling with old office furniture by florence knoll and herman miller....just sitting there rotting.  Dealers drool over that shit, and the midwest is way behind on the mid century modern craze.  That danish modern dining set sitting in Grandma's living room in old brooklyn is selling for $5000 in Williamsburg brooklyn.

If this district includes quite a few vintage furniture stores it would probably do quite well.  Antique dealers and mid century modern peddlers flock to Ohio from NYC and the east and buy up whatever they can and take it back and sell it for 3 or 4 times more. 

 

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.  Damn you!

^it would also have lower rents than Euclid (even though Euclid doesn't really deserve high rents at this point).

 

Yeah, but will it when the ECP is done?  Isn't that the context we have to be thinking in? 

 

I'm surprised I'm hearing so much of the "this is better than nothing" argument here.  We are talking about investing $200 million+ in this corridor to make it into a pedestrian friendly Downtown centerpiece and then trying to fill it with uses that have a low potential for generating pedestrian traffic.  That's what is downright dismaying about this idea.  It's a great idea, but I think it is the wrong idea for Euclid.  I still feel the same about the District of Design.  I doubt that either design showrooms or furniture stores are high traffic generators.  That seems to me to make them inappropriate landuses for the tranportation investment we have made here.

^it would also have lower rents than Euclid (even though Euclid doesn't really deserve high rents at this point).

 

Yeah, but will it when the ECP is done?  Isn't that the context we have to be thinking in? 

 

I'm surprised I'm hearing so much of the "this is better than nothing" argument here.  We are talking about investing $200 million+ in this corridor to make it into a pedestrian friendly Downtown centerpiece and then trying to fill it with uses that have a low potential for generating pedestrian traffic.  That's what is downright dismaying about this idea.  It's a great idea, but I think it is the wrong idea for Euclid.  I still feel the same about the District of Design.  I doubt that either design showrooms or furniture stores are high traffic generators.  That seems to me to make them inappropriate landuses for the tranportation investment we have made here.

 

At one time, I was the owner of a retail furniture and appliance store. My business flourished for approximately 12 years until my elderly parents required a huge amount of my time and money for their health. The traffic my store on Arlington St., in Akron, generated was considerable. Of-course, there were extremely busy days and extremely slow days. But on busy days, the foot traffic was considerable; especially when I got new or unique merchandise and sat it outside on the sidewalk. People, especially women, love to fix up their homes and even if they don't have money or a need at the time, they still love to look at the possibilities and imagine; what if. Women love to look at furniture as a pass time and there seems to always be one more accessory needed.

I think the the right mix of stores, it could do well. CB2, Eurway, West Elm, and BO Concept on Euclid would be nice.

Furniture or no furniture, it sure will be interesting to see how lower Euclid fills out when the construction dust settles, especially when (if?) FEB picks up steam.  I think lower Euclid is going to have a very hard time competing against FEB and (if it happens) Pesht for chain retail leases. 

Furniture or no furniture, it sure will be interesting to see how lower Euclid fills out when the construction dust settles, especially when (if?) FEB picks up steam.  I think lower Euclid is going to have a very hard time competing against FEB and (if it happens) Pesht for chain retail leases. 

 

How, if lower Euclid is done and leases are signed how will it have a hard time competing?

 

Residents are already there, with more on the way.

 

Please elaborate.

I think I support this idea. I think it could work if, just like anything else, IT'S DONE WELL.

 

I think I would like to see a small pocket type of neighborhood because I'm not sure how much of this downtown can support. Something almost like E 4th .. not sure if this will work as well on such a main street like Euclid. Also, I personally find smaller boutique type furniture stores much more interesting.

 

And can there maybe be some spaces where up-and-coming Cleveland designers can showcase some of their work, maybe in some kind of conjunction with CIA? I have to believe there's interesting design in Cleveland, but no one would ever know that because these people (at least, from what I've seen) haven't been given the opportunity to show their work off. I know that rents would probably be cost prohibitive, but I think this neighborhood can be an interesting showcase of progressive design.

 

Now, if Cleveland planners play it safe and have a bunch of stores showcasing mediocre design, which has been the trend in Cleveland, then it will fail. I do agree that people need a reason to shop downtown. Downtown needs beautiful, well-designed furniture, marketed to the urban dweller. I would love to see things you would normally see in Chicago or NYC downtown. I honestly think that's the type of thing Cleveland needs for this district to succeed.

Does anyone know how the furniture store on St. Clair between W.6th and W. 9th is doing? Has anyone bought something there? I would assume that this place would be a good indicator of the demand for downtown furniture stores.

Question, is this strickly "furniture" or "furniture and home goods"?

Does anyone know how the furniture store on St. Clair between W.6th and W. 9th is doing? Has anyone bought something there? I would assume that this place would be a good indicator of the demand for downtown furniture stores.

 

Surroundings - I've picked up a few things there, mostly accessories. Haven't been there in a while, though.

MTS:

 

^They aren't talking about just high end furniture.  Also home accessorie type stores, etc.  Again, if everyone buys in to the concept you create an actual "district" completely unique to the entire region, and it can become almost a one stop shop.

good.  Then I still don't see what the negatives are.  I mean I can't see hulking down nothing but furniture stores on Euclid. 

 

I feel like this could be a return to getting people out to walk.  I didn't like denver's 16 street mall as a suggestion, although I think if we had a good mix of retailers local/international/chain similar to the Lincoln Road mall, we could be good to go.

Furniture or no furniture, it sure will be interesting to see how lower Euclid fills out when the construction dust settles, especially when (if?) FEB picks up steam.  I think lower Euclid is going to have a very hard time competing against FEB and (if it happens) Pesht for chain retail leases. 

 

How, if lower Euclid is done and leases are signed how will it have a hard time competing?

 

Residents are already there, with more on the way.

 

Please elaborate.

 

Well, the finish line for lower Euclid is in sight, and leases aren't signed, so I'm not sure what you mean.  If Goldberg, Mann and company are able to attract quality tenants, than I don't think they will necessary fail.  I just think they are going to have a hard time competing for the same chain retail stores that Wolstein is going after and that Stark will go after given that Wolstein and Stark can more or less build to suit, will have greater control over their tenant mixes, will have control over customer parking, etc.

 

As for furniture districts- what about Detroit Shoreway?  I haven't been, but could Room Service and DuoHome be the early stages of a bigger cluster?

Well, the finish line for lower Euclid is in sight, and leases aren't signed, so I'm not sure what you mean.  If Goldberg, Mann and company are able to attract quality tenants, than I don't think they will necessary fail.  I just think they are going to have a hard time competing for the same chain retail stores that Wolstein is going after and that Stark will go after given that Wolstein and Stark can more or less build to suit, will have greater control over their tenant mixes, will have control over customer parking, etc.

 

What I'm saying is NOTHING is complete and no leases have been signed that we know about, so if the ECP finishes and signs leases before pesht or FEB start looking at potential tenants or has "commitments", why would the ECP be at a disadvantage?

 

Right now all of downtown Cleveland is up for grabs.  We just need to make sure the retail locations are filled properly.

if the ECP finishes and signs leases before pesht or FEB start looking at potential tenants or has "commitments",

 

That's exactly the "if" that I think will be interesting to follow.  You're right though, lower Euclid will obviously have a few years head start on FEB.  But the longer those storefronts stay empty, the more they'll have to compete with the other projects.

You can find some good deals in Surroundings' basement.  I think they have a sale going on right now too.  I have some furniture from there that I got for quite the steal!  I asked them how they were doing and they say they do quite well.  They just don't rely on foot traffic (ie you or me wandering in and buying a few things). 

 

 

You can find some good deals in Surroundings' basement.  I think they have a sale going on right now too.  I have some furniture from there that I got for quite the steal!  I asked them how they were doing and they say they do quite well.  They just don't rely on foot traffic (ie you or me wandering in and buying a few things). 

 

 

 

Where is "Surroundings"?

^Worthington Building in the Warehouse District - St. Clair between West 6th and West 9th, near D'Vine.

Thanks for the welcome! Ive been on UO for a few months now but this is my first time posting.

 

Population wise i believe metro denver has about 200,000+ more people than metro cleveland. I could be wrong though!

 

And you are....  There are approx. 2.4 mil in denver and Cleveland has approximately 2.9.

 

Just to clarify the  latest census figures just out show

 

Chicago metro area has 9.5 million, Denver metro area has 2.5 million, Pittsburgh metro area has 2.3 million, Cincinnati metro are 2.1 million, Cleveland metro area 2.1 million, Columbus metro area 1.8 million.

North Avenue in Chicago has a Crate & Barrell, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, a former Expo design center, and a few local furniture showrooms.  They also have a mix of retail, apparel, electronics, etc.  Maybe that is what this study is saying, anchor it with furniture stores, but mix in all retail around it.

Thanks for the welcome! Ive been on UO for a few months now but this is my first time posting.

 

Population wise i believe metro denver has about 200,000+ more people than metro cleveland. I could be wrong though!

 

And you are....  There are approx. 2.4 mil in denver and Cleveland has approximately 2.9.

 

Just to clarify the  latest census figures just out show

 

Chicago metro area has 9.5 million, Denver metro area has 2.5 million, Pittsburgh metro area has 2.3 million, Cincinnati metro are 2.1 million, Cleveland metro area 2.1 million, Columbus metro area 1.8 million.

 

We're not going down that street and census figures aren't going to discussed here there are two current threads for that. Cleveland is bigger and more progressive.  I have spoken!  End of discussion. :whip:

North Avenue in Chicago has a Crate & Barrell, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, a former Expo design center, and a few local furniture showrooms.  They also have a mix of retail, apparel, electronics, etc.  Maybe that is what this study is saying, anchor it with furniture stores, but mix in all retail around it.

 

That is my point.  Market street in Philly has a niche; Madison Avenue has a niche; the Miracle Mile has a niche; but I like the over tone of Lincoln road as the restaurants are mostly local in flavor, like Cleveland, but they have nice representation of local, regional and nation retail.  Along with a Department store and several grocery stores.

Cleveland is bigger and more progressive.

 

Yes yes yes! I agree!  Who really cares if we're 200,000 +/- larger or smaller than city XYZ!  It's a mindset.  Does it really matter than Detroit is 2x the size of CLE proper?

 

We're in a unique situation b/c the scale and density of things in Cleveland give off a big city vibe--Smallest big city remember?!  I love walking out of TC in the morning seeing PS with skyscrapers and Burnhams civic buildings!  Looking down Ontario at the courthouse lit by the morning sun transplants you--for a few seconds--to a vista we've seen somewhere in Europe.  The right mix of local and national businesses will make visiting Cleveland worthwhile--and not just because we have a few bags in our hands.  It's the entire package of evident history, present, and cranes of the future that will get us our own Frommer's book in a few years!

 

"PROGRESS AND PROSPERITY"  It's kind of ironic that a lot of people don't even know we have a flag, let alone this as the motto!

 

 

 

 

If Avenue District, FEB, and Pesht will all offer a lot of retail and restaurant, then I don't see the market for Euclid Avenue possibly being able to fill the entire street with that sort of stuff, at least not right now. The concept of districts and focusing on specific markets is good. Look how E. 4th has succeeded as a unique spot for entertainment/dining, moreso than what's being offered anywhere else in NE Ohio. Let Pesht, FEB, and Avenue go to work on bringing in retail and more dining options. Because if Euclid Avenue tries to do the same, we're going to have a major market saturation and then places will vacate and we'll be back at step 1. As much as we want to think the downtown area is about to explode, you can't justify saturation if the demand is not able to support it YET. A furniture district could spill over into new businesses taking up office space on that part of Euclid, companies really getting into furniture dealing, and I'm not talking about small stuff, I'm thinking of being a destination for high end furniture. I drive 2.5 hours all the time to go to Ikea for furniture. Why wouldn't someone from Pitts or Columbus be willing to come on up to Cleveland for a chance to browse the hottest and most unique offerings?? I know I'd be down with it! I'm very supportive of districts and pre-planned efforts. Look at Dille Rd. in Cleveland and you see a church, a bar, a falling apart house, another church set 500 feet back from the road, a train track, a factory, a house, another house, and a recycling warehouse. That is what happens when the land and properties become "every man for themself". That area sucks now as a result. This example could be used for so many parts of NE Ohio: W. 117th St., Carnegie and Euclid near the Clinic: Rite Aid set back from the road next to an Aldi's with no front entrance next to a church with horrible design. That is what happens when you don't plan. The furniture district concept involves planning and careful decision making. That is how E. 4th has succeeded. That is how FEB will succeed. Let this district happen and if it brings people in, new hotels will follow, new retail will find it's way in. In NYC, bodega's and little shops squeeze into every corner. Right now, you could fit so much more on Euclid even with a furniture district. Let that blossom and the rest will follow. Or, stop it from happening and hope for some odd reason that Euclid will explode with retail just because it's Euclid Avenue, the most famous street in Cleveland.

Well, I think you're offering a bit of a false dilema here.  There aren't only two options: "furniture district" or "no plan at all".  It is possible that Euclid could have a carefully planned retail and entertainment portfolio that isn't a furniture district.

I think that one of the problems in deciding what type of products to showcase on Euclid Ave. is the fact that Cleveland really hasn't had this type of outdoors shopping opportunity available to it in a long time. What stores would represent Euclid the best as the "Michigan Ave" or the "Rodeo Drive" of Cleveland? What impact will all the other downtown development projects with all their retail space have on the ECP? These are important questions vital to understanding the supply/demand of the downtown area. I have read and agree with previous posts about how having too many duplicate retail stores will cause market saturation and will prevent an optimal revitalization of downtown Cleveland. This makes one wonder what unique opportunities are available specifically for Euclid Avenue.

 

Furniture stores were suggested by many people, and this very well could be a viable business for the area. With all the new developments in condos, apartments and office space, I could certainly see a furniture or a few furniture stores open on Euclid. However, I wouldn't want to have more than a handful. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't want to see Euclid Ave. become "Furniture District" but this certainly is a viable option.

 

One idea that I've thought of is perhaps placing a new "high-end" auto dealership on Euclid. Porsche, Lotus, Mercedes, BMW, or possibly a combination of these. If you think about it Euclid is the central business district of Cleveland. What better area to advertise to executives than right when they're walking around on their lunch break? These cars will look slick in the showroom as well as giving the area itself a much more luxurious feel to it.

 

I also like the idea of having art from CIA exhibited in a gallery viewable from the street. Something specifically Cleveland that shows part of our class and culture.

 

Aside from that it's tough to think of what else would work. The problem is the retail chains such as banana rep., Express, NY & co., and others of the similar category have a good chance of moving back into tower city if FC builds their Convention center in front of TC. They also might be likely to open stores in the Pesht plan or FEB. Granted, Michigan Ave. has many repeated stores in side-malls and such, but that's because they have such massive foot traffic. And as soon as you have that type of foot traffic you could very well start courting the high end stores such as Gucci, Armani, and Hugo Boss... but not yet! ;)

 

I think overall though, since everything (at least to us who aren't involved in the decision making processes at all) seems so up in the air and unorganized, all we can do is speculate. It's an exciting time for everyone. Opportunities are vast within all of this new construction. I suppose we just have to see how things develop!

Urbanite,

 

Thanks for the thoughts. Welcome to UO.

 

My issue with an auto district that it would create very little foot traffic. (For the sake of argument, I'm assuming that the cars could somehow fit inside the existing structures.). Interesting idea, but you don't get that many people looking for high end autos.

 

 

 

 

^I don't think car dealerships, however high end, work well in tight central biz districts like Cleveland.  In fact, they tend to ruin the urban fabric of the streets their own.  Look at Lorain Ave.  It's popularly known as Antiques row.  To me, it's more like Used Car Alley, with a dealership of some kind every few blocks, seemingly anyway.  As to Tower City, I agree the CC should be there, but the plan is for it to be in the back of TC.