You want an evaluation? who are you directing to do this?

 

Yes Tower City was there with "no" residents, and look how it did.

 

Also downtown population is still around 10k.

 

Pope, was the fall of tower city all Clevelands fault?  You know darn well that many of the FRANCHISE stores there, LV, Calvin Klein and Gucci, too name a few, had internal problem unrelated to Sales. Barney's went into Bankruptcy and closed stores worldwide.

 

We cannot sit here and say TC went bad simply because nobody wanted to shop there.  the loss of the "premiere" retailers and TCs poor management after that, caused the mall to go downhill fast.

 

The last estimate on Downtown residents was 12-13k IIRC.

^Downtown pop is currently just shy of 10. a little closer to 8 w/o the "justice center pop".  And I'm not saying that as a put down.  Population has pretty much trippled in the last 5-6 years.

OH MTS, how I love your enthusiasm, and you have some pretty sound reasoning... I'm just telling you that the retailers won't even nibble.  They are giving a huge middle finger to anyone that approaches them about downtown right now.  Confiteordeo is right, without the "big bang" it just isn't going to happen until we reach the numbers they want.  And though there are a billion and 5 reasons for the decline of tower city... it was able to start with no resident base because the market conditions were totally different.  There was no crocker park, and the "beachwood" scene was in its infancy.  If people wanted any of the "fancy" stuff, they HAD to come downtown.  Now all the places that were "destination" retail (Banana, Williams Sanoma, the nice department stores) are all over the suburbs.  And people aren't going to go right by all of that just to come downtown to shop at the same places... And no matter who emplores them, retailers in a slumping retail market are not going to make some leap of faith on how things "might" shape out.  It is big bang, or wait until the market reaches the point at which they are comfortable... unfortunately.

 

ahh, but beachwood was up and running, That Sak's was the first of their their then "new plan-o-grammed" stores.  Severance ceded to beachwood (because it lost Halle's) and Randall Park Mall was still strong. 

 

Tower City hurt Randall and made it tough for Beachwood to attract upscale customers.  We still had ½ of Higbees so there was a reason to come downtown, especially for Westsiders and Cleveland residents.

 

Todays retail enviornment has changed drastically and the internet has put a cramp in shopping at all stores, sure you still have people going into the stores, but worldwide, foot traffic is down.

 

Again, I'm not saying anyone should or would be willing to do anything now, but there is no reason why leasing of space and courting of retailers should not be happening in tandem with the building that is and proposed to take place.

 

We cannot sit here and say TC went bad simply because nobody wanted to shop there.  the loss of the "premiere" retailers and TCs poor management after that, caused the mall to go downhill fast.

 

Having worked at one the retailers, and making many friends at the one next door: Revenues for the TC stores were far lower than a) all stores b) comparable stores (urban market stores). About the only thing the downtown stores led the respective companies in was shrinkage.

 

Oh god, I'm off topic, Back to Euclid!

 

We cannot sit here and say TC went bad simply because nobody wanted to shop there.  the loss of the "premiere" retailers and TCs poor management after that, caused the mall to go downhill fast.

 

Having worked at one the retailers, and making many friends at the one next door: Revenues for the TC stores were far lower than a) all stores b) comparable stores (urban market stores). About the only thing the downtown stores led the respective companies in was shrinkage.

 

Oh god, I'm off topic, Back to Euclid!

 

And that happened, because of what?  The stores themselves having issues, which led to closings, which led to people not wanting to shop there.  Its an ugly circle.

 

NOW back to Euclid, although I believe this conversation is all related.

The focus on suburbanites is because generally Downtowns function as regional centers.  And the suburbanites have the vast majority of this region's wealth.  Unless someone has an idea to make Cleveland a tourist destination on par with Las Vegas or Disneyland it is unlikely that we can stock Downtown with amenities that primarily play to people outside the region.

 

Orlando and Las Vegas are comparing apples to oranges.  Look at what the economy is doing to those areas.  When the economy is bad, Orlando and Las Vegas take a BIG hit.

 

 

Actually that was my point exactly.  We don't have a tourist economy, though we get some tourism.  We cannot support our retail/entertainment primarily on tourist dollars.

 

However, X, you did "get it" and you pass.   Instead of saying "suburbanites" we need to think of Cleveland as a REGIONAL DESTINATION for all.  I say drop the "please" and "entice" the suburbanites mentality out of the equation. 

 

I don't understand what you're saying here.  If I understand you right, you are contradicting yourself by saying that we need to be a destination for Greater Cleveland (if that's what you mean by "region"), but that we shouldn't make any effort to be so.  If by region, you mean a day drive or whatever, I'd say see my point above.

 

Personally, as a resident of Cleveland, I find that thinking condescending and offensive that people think "only the surbanites could afford to shop at x types of establishments if and when they return to lower Euclid".  The residents who currently live throughout the city proper should aslo feel insulted.

 

You can take that as a slight, but really its a matter of dollars.  There aren't many people making the kind of money needed to shop at Barney's living in Cleveland (and no one said "only suburbanites could afford" to do so).  Certainly there are not enough of you to support a Barney's without the additional market of suburbanites, and maybe not even then.

 

Do we have any idea what population, making what level of income, and habitually spending it on what, is required to support a department store, a subregional mall, a luxury store, a regional destination mall?  I don't remember all the "rule of thumb" numbers offhand, but the 25,000 population number bandied about as the answer for Downtown isn't what is needed to support a mall like Tower City, it is the population needed to support a full service grocery store anchoring a neighborhood retail center.  A small, or "subregional" mall requires somewhere in the neighborhood of 125,000 people to support it.  That should put the population of Downtown, and the amount of weight that retailers are going to give that population in making location decisions some perspective.

This is my first post, so if my question/analysis is dumb please feel free to remove it or let me know. I also wanted to say that I have followed this forum for a long time and always look forward to the new information as well as from hearing from Mayday on here and on the skyscrapers forum.

 

Here is my question and let me know what I'm misreading or if its a totally stupid idea...

 

The visitors bureau said that Cuyahoga county had 14 million visitors in 06' and our county covers 458.49 square miles. That is 30,535 visitors per square mile. You will see why I broke it down in square miles in a bit.

 

New York City had roughly 39.5 million visitors in 06' and have 468.9 square miles of land. That is 84,209 visitors per square mile.

 

I know this sounds silly but NYC, the greatest city in the U.S. (at least most think so) gets 2.75 times more visitors then our region.

 

My question is how many of the 14 million visitors to Cuyahoga County actually visit Cleveland, and I was wondering if someone had actual numbers for the city itself it would be great. For example, if we get half of the visitors to Cuyahoga county that puts us at 7 million people with 82.4 square miles in our city, which equates to 84,951 visitors per square mile. I'm sure that we probably don't get half the county visitors, because then we actually get more visitors per square mile of land then NYC, but even if we don't I think its possible for our city to attract that many people.

 

The theory for my visitors per square mile is that the more land you have the more likely your going to have a higher total, so this breaks it down to relative terms. Just wanted to see what you guys thought and I apologize for writing on tourism under this thread but others have been mentioning tourists so I decided to chime in.

 

Isn't downtown's "boundary" relatively small and excludes the very close, RELEVANT neighborhoods of Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit Shoreway +/-, oh and Flats West Bank?!  Can someone tell me the rough population  if we include these neighboring neighborhoods? :wink: 

Isn't downtown's "boundary" relatively small and excludes the very close, RELEVANT neighborhoods of Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit Shoreway +/-, oh and Flats West Bank?!  Can someone tell me the rough population  if we include these neighboring neighborhoods? :wink: 

 

IIRC, it also excludes anything east of 18 or 21 street.  I can see excluding Detroit-Shoreway.  as it doesn't touch downtown.

I saw Greg Proops at Hilarities last night and he, along with the guy before him, Max Weintraub, kept going on and on about Euclid Avenue.  I understand why, but it made me wonder what the status of the project was.

 

I keep telling everyone October.  Is that true?  Is there someplace that keeps track of progress?  RTA's site didn't seem to warrant much information...

Ipsilon, if you check the Euclid Corridor thread in Transportation, you'll see that you're right - by the end of October it'll be running.

I knew I was missing a thread, somewhere.

 

Thanks. :)

The construction in front of the Clinic seems to be progressing pretty damn fast. I suppose they want that section finished by the time the new heart center opens sometime this fall.

The construction in front of the Clinic seems to be progressing pretty damn fast. I suppose they want that section finished by the time the new heart center opens sometime this fall.

 

You are correct. It would be nice to provide front door access to the new $500 million facility.  I'm very curious to see how the new allee (sp?) will look.

The construction in front of the Clinic seems to be progressing pretty damn fast. I suppose they want that section finished by the time the new heart center opens sometime this fall.

 

You are correct. It would be nice to provide front door access to the new $500 million facility.  I'm very curious to see how the new allee (sp?) will look.

 

It's true.  The allee (the stip of E. 93rd from Chester to Euclid) will finish in September.  I'm assuming that part of Euclid will wrap up sometime around there.  The Heart Center opens in October or November.

Groovy. I work at the Intercontinental, so I get to see the progress of the buildings and Euclid every day. Maybe when I next work on Thursday I will take my camera and snap a few pictures for everyone's enjoyment.

^please!

yeah, we hate pictures here :wink:

OH MTS, how I love your enthusiasm, and you have some pretty sound reasoning... I'm just telling you that the retailers won't even nibble.  They are giving a huge middle finger to anyone that approaches them about downtown right now.  Confiteordeo is right, without the "big bang" it just isn't going to happen until we reach the numbers they want.  And though there are a billion and 5 reasons for the decline of tower city... it was able to start with no resident base because the market conditions were totally different.  There was no crocker park, and the "beachwood" scene was in its infancy.  If people wanted any of the "fancy" stuff, they HAD to come downtown.  Now all the places that were "destination" retail (Banana, Williams Sanoma, the nice department stores) are all over the suburbs.  And people aren't going to go right by all of that just to come downtown to shop at the same places... And no matter who emplores them, retailers in a slumping retail market are not going to make some leap of faith on how things "might" shape out.  It is big bang, or wait until the market reaches the point at which they are comfortable... unfortunately.

 

we all know a buildout of stark's pesht in full would be a big bang that would definately jumpstart some more serious downtown retail....but will the residential projects that are actually happening now be when they are completed? ie., flats east bank+the avenue? sounds like that addition would not be quite enough.

 

i guess i am wondering how do you get to the magic 20k given thats about double what is downtown right now? how will the new projects = 10k of new downtown residents?

Honestly I think the new projects (Stark/FEB) are better for snagging headlines and a handful of upscale residents - and changing perceptions. The residential conversions (i.e. Maron (East 4th), K&D (668 Euclid) and Mann (East 9th-12th) will be better for boosting actual resident numbers, and foot traffic.

This seemed the most appropriate thread for this...  At design review today, one of the presentations was from Statler arms.  I'm sure people have noticed some work being done around there.  All of the marquees have been painted a burgandy and gold.  Today they were showing us their signage program for the rest of the building.  There will be a 65' tall back lit vertical sign going up the E.12th street side of the building.  New Awnings for the storefronts on Euclid, and signange panels for the main stores (like finer things), etc.  It looks really nice.  Another interesting note though... I wasn't aware that the E. 12th streetscape project stops at chester... but it does.  They want to privately finance new sidewalks that would match the ones on Euclid to go down their portion of 12th.  They are also interesting in getting scaled down versions of the new Euclid planters to line their side of 12th.  They are trying to get together with the city and see if they can get a little help with curbs and paving on that block of 12th and they would take care of the rest.  i think someone is going to reach out to the union club to see if they might be interested as well...  At any rate, it was really nice to sit at a table with some people who spoke so positively about the new Euclid and what they think it can do and actually want to extend that momentum on their own... refreshing.

Nice info Mayor McCleveland!  :clap:

OH MTS, how I love your enthusiasm, and you have some pretty sound reasoning... I'm just telling you that the retailers won't even nibble.  They are giving a huge middle finger to anyone that approaches them about downtown right now.  Confiteordeo is right, without the "big bang" it just isn't going to happen until we reach the numbers they want.  And though there are a billion and 5 reasons for the decline of tower city... it was able to start with no resident base because the market conditions were totally different.  There was no crocker park, and the "beachwood" scene was in its infancy.  If people wanted any of the "fancy" stuff, they HAD to come downtown.  Now all the places that were "destination" retail (Banana, Williams Sanoma, the nice department stores) are all over the suburbs.  And people aren't going to go right by all of that just to come downtown to shop at the same places... And no matter who emplores them, retailers in a slumping retail market are not going to make some leap of faith on how things "might" shape out.  It is big bang, or wait until the market reaches the point at which they are comfortable... unfortunately.

 

we all know a buildout of stark's pesht in full would be a big bang that would definately jumpstart some more serious downtown retail....but will the residential projects that are actually happening now be when they are completed? ie., flats east bank+the avenue? sounds like that addition would not be quite enough.

 

i guess i am wondering how do you get to the magic 20k given thats about double what is downtown right now? how will the new projects = 10k of new downtown residents?

 

it will take a lot to reach that 20k mark, but we are well on our way...

 

the euclid/east 9-12th projects (668/Breuer/Mann) should add something close to another 1,000 when completed...Avenue District has the potential for "up to 600 housing units", Pesht calls for 350 homes based on latest revised plan, FEB calls for 300 dwellings...that's a total of 2,250 right there...I'm sure I am leaving out some others

 

edit: oh yeah and these are dwellings/units/etc...so actual people might be that number x2?

^I don't know what the average occupancy is for downtown housing, but since many of these units will be condos or town homes (avenue district), would it be fair to say, on average each "unit" or "dwelling" might net 2 occupants? If so, that's 4500 new residents. I think the numbers get confused when comparing number of new units to the 20,000 population critical mass that is so talked about.

I thought I read somewhere that the number used is "1.5" per unit?

 

Although I agree, the number of "units to enter the market" doesn't equal the the "number" of occupants/homeowners.

Don't forget about CollegeTown (on hold??) and future phases of Stonebridge.  That will add another couple thousand if all goes forward.  I am also sure that other developments in the immediate proximity of Euclid Ave. will be announced shortly after EC proves its value.

 

 

True, plus I am willing to bet the Huntingdon building will be switched to mixed use at some point...once the larger tenants leave, it will be half vacant...no telling how many more people this could hold...

I thought I read somewhere that the number used is "1.5" per unit?

 

Although I agree, the number of "units to enter the market" doesn't equal the the "number" of occupants/homeowners.

 

That sounds about right - so far the Avenue District townhome buyers seem to be about half and half when it comes to 1 vs. 2 people.

^^It will be really interesting to see what happens with the Huntington Bldg.  I recall that the bank subleases a lot of its space various subtenants but don't recall how much of the building the bank leases- is it the whole building?  Anyone know/remember?

Stonebridge won't count in the housing units for downtown. Instead it will show up in Ohio City's numbers.

What kind of developments will take place once downtown reaches 20,000 residents?

MLS,

 

Welcome to UO!

 

20,000 or 25,000 is a magic number/goal that a lot of people throw out there. Once you get that type of density, you'll see a lot more retail and neighborhood services showing up. Downtown would be more of a true neighborhood that is self-sustaining and doesn't necessarily need weekend visitors to keep businesses open outside of traditional business hours.

Thanks.

The way I see it, the projects currently being developed should attract around 3,000 new residents.  So, as you know, much more needs to happen to reach the threshold that is needed for downtown to truly take off.

MLS,

 

Welcome to UO!

 

20,000 or 25,000 is a magic number/goal that a lot of people throw out there. Once you get that type of density, you'll see a lot more retail and neighborhood services showing up. Downtown would be more of a true neighborhood that is self-sustaining and doesn't necessarily need weekend visitors to keep businesses open outside of traditional business hours.

 

To add on from my experience that the two big numbers larger retailers/services look for is 20,000 - 30,000 Residential population and 100,000+ Worker population (which Cleveland already has). There's clearly other factors to be looked at, household income, % with college degree, etc.

^shoot, I was hoping that we could just build a mega jail and call it a day.

A 20k+ downtown population would place in some pretty heady company on a national level...

 

 

 

sorry I don't know how to post an entire PDF file...??

With such a large office population, it amazes me that downtown retail is struggling. 

I guess it shows how important the residential component is going to be.

How can columbus have more than Cleveland? 

I'm sure retail does just fine downtown from 9-5.  It's from 5-9 that's the problem.

 

I do hope that all this stuff in the works is open past 7pm.  I know the Flats will be, but I hope the rest will be, too.

This has been mentioned elsewhere here, but some of the cities in that chart have some pretty large geographic areas which they count as "downtown." Some of the areas are large enough that, if the same boundaries were applied here, portions of Ohio City, Tremont, Central and St. Clair-Superior would be counted as part of downtown Cleveland's population.

This has been mentioned elsewhere here, but some of the cities in that chart have some pretty large geographic areas which they count as "downtown." Some of the areas are large enough that, if the same boundaries were applied here, portions of Ohio City, Tremont, Central and St. Clair-Superior would be counted as part of downtown Cleveland's population.

 

Columbus is all over that... everything is considered "columbus".  I pay very little attention to most population / wealth / demographic surveys because they simply are nowhere near apples to apples comparisons.

Yeah, like how all of Duval County in Florida is considered the city of Jacksonville, which makes the city huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge.

But what is considered "downtown"?

I don't know what is considered to be downtown Jacksonville - just that it's a good example of how it's difficult to compare apples to oranges for demographics.  :)

Columbus has less than Cleveland.

 

The restaurants and entertainment do well, but beyond that the options are limited.

the chart is from a Brookings Institute study from a few years back..i tried to find out what their definition of "downtown" was, but couldn't find anything definitive...

Brookings Institute though widely hailed, is also the same place that said Cleveland only had one walkable neighborhood... and that it was University Circle... not Downtown, Shaker Square, or Ohio City. :roll: Sometimes i think those guys spend too long looking at numbers and not enough time looking at the actual cities. :lol:

KJP, not to cover the old stuff but for some of us newbies - what would downtown's population be if OC, Tremont, etc were included in the figures?

 

To me, there is a difference between "Downtown" and "the CBD".... Downtown being much larger.

KJP, not to cover the old stuff but for some of us newbies - what would downtown's population be if OC, Tremont, etc were included in the figures?

 

To me, there is a difference between "Downtown" and "the CBD".... Downtown being much larger.

 

I think that is the problem. I am still unclear as to what "downtown cleveland's" boundaries are as I'm sure many others are.

 

I know the West Bank of the flats, which many people consider to be "downtown cleveland" is not included.  But what in Sam Hell are downtown Cleveland's boundaries???

i think we've ventured way off topic