July 25, 201311 yr The one thing I will say is they have a decent area to work with here measuring at approximately 1.67 acres. For comparison sake, the Marriott, Key Tower, and the old Society building sit on a parcel measuring approximately 1.64 acres. If they go tall, versus lowrise and maximize the parcel, my guess is there will not be any below grade parking as they have all the room in the world for an above grade garage.
July 25, 201311 yr Lifetime ban. Make that two skywalks. :lol: The one thing I will say is they have a decent area to work with here measuring at approximately 1.67 acres. For comparison sake' date=' the Marriott, Key Tower, and the old Society building sit on a parcel measuring approximately 1.64 acres. If they go tall, versus lowrise and maximize the parcel, my guess is there will not be any below grade parking as they have all the room in the world for an above grade garage.[/quote'] They could have at least 2-3 levels of parking underground and a beautiful interior courtyard at grade. I truly hope Fitzgerald & Co (if they have this insight) makes such a requirement for all parking to be below grade....
July 25, 201311 yr ^However parking below grade here may be challenging, as it seems below ground the hotel will connect with CC lobbies as well as share the loading dock areas, which i presume will also then serve whatever banquet/conference facilities are built into the hotel. I'm hoping the below ground space can accommodate additional exhibit space, be it operated by MMPI as part of the CC or by the new hotel (the renaissance operates exhibit space as well as conference space at their hotel for comparison). I worry 230K dedicated exhibition space is smallish compared to other centers in peer cities, and expansion could only happen below the hotel or north over the train tracks...but that's more suited for the multimodal transit hub.
July 25, 201311 yr ^I know the expansion discussion is a bit off topic, and it may be premature because the CC literally just opened, but I feel this hotel project may be our only shot at CC expansion for the center if it proves successful. With the exception of engineering something over the train tracks, there's no where to go but under the hotel. Be it to build below ground or above, we're certainly not going to knock down any of the adjacent buildings around the mall for a CC expansion...I think this issue should be seriously considered. This was the best location for the Global Center and CC, but we should be mindful that once the hotel is built...completing the original mall plan as Steve Litt put it...the CC will be landlocked for decades.
July 25, 201311 yr ^I know the expansion discussion is a bit off topic, and it may be premature because the CC literally just opened, but I feel this hotel project may be our only shot at CC expansion for the center if it proves successful. With the exception of engineering something over the train tracks, there's no where to go but under the hotel. Be it to build below ground or above, we're certainly not going to knock down any of the adjacent buildings around the mall for a CC expansion...I think this issue should be seriously considered. This was the best location for the Global Center and CC, but we should be mindful that once the hotel is built...completing the original mall plan as Steve Litt put it...the CC will be landlocked for decades. I agree, this is why I hope they place parking on 4/5 level at grade, then a hotel tower atop. If expansion is needed then the parking can be turned into market space. You kids know I hate parking.
July 25, 201311 yr Anyone hoping for a dramatic impact on the skyline is going to be woefully disappointed
July 25, 201311 yr ^Yeah, I was hoping for something in the 30ish story range. Oh well. Though it won't dramatically alter the skyline (maybe expand it a bit towards the water? I'll have to do a mockup and see) I think it'll feel decently sized when compared to what else is around it on the mall. Later tonight I'm going to do a Google Earth mockup and see how it feels. I'll share pics when I get to it for discussion.
July 25, 201311 yr As a comparison for height, the Doubletree on Lakeside is 17 floors. That building's height is rather unimpressive, especially when it's next to the much taller North Point Tower, and North Point is still short compared to other towers in Cleveland.
July 25, 201311 yr ^Yeah, I was hoping for something in the 30ish story range. Oh well. Though it won't dramatically alter the skyline (maybe expand it a bit towards the water? I'll have to do a mockup and see) I think it'll feel decently sized when compared to what else is around it on the mall. Later tonight I'm going to do a Google Earth mockup and see how it feels. I'll share pics when I get to it for discussion. Did they come out with a massing? Anyhow, as far as below grade parking goes, the more I think about it, the less likely I see it happening. Costs on the new CC were extremely elevated due to severe groundwater infiltration for the mass excavation. Handling that water throughout construction was a bear, and it's not something I see these guys doing if they don't have to.
July 25, 201311 yr ^No, but I was just going to guesstimate what it could look like just for sake of discussion.
July 25, 201311 yr This is likely to be nothing more than "infill" for the skyline. We need that though. I would love to see something that acknowledges and addresses the Group Plan's classical styling. Huge prefab surfaces devoid of texture are a mistake anywhere, but especially so for this site. The Med Mart building at least features interesting exterior walls, even though its design is excessively horizontal. Same with the Justice Center... imagine if those banks of windows were arranged vertically instead. It would look so much less like a filing cabinet. Meanwhile, those columns on Burnahm's designs do more than hold up roofs.
July 25, 201311 yr The question becomes how much you want to sacrafice functionality for design aesthetics. We'd all like to see them strike a nice balance, of course
July 25, 201311 yr ^Yeah, I was hoping for something in the 30ish story range. Oh well. Though it won't dramatically alter the skyline (maybe expand it a bit towards the water? I'll have to do a mockup and see) I think it'll feel decently sized when compared to what else is around it on the mall. Later tonight I'm going to do a Google Earth mockup and see how it feels. I'll share pics when I get to it for discussion. Did they come out with a massing? Anyhow, as far as below grade parking goes, the more I think about it, the less likely I see it happening. Costs on the new CC were extremely elevated due to severe groundwater infiltration for the mass excavation. Handling that water throughout construction was a bear, and it's not something I see these guys doing if they don't have to. How do you know costs on the new CC were elevated due to severe groundwater infiltration?
July 26, 201311 yr A study commissioned by CuyahogaCounty from PFK Consulting determined that 650 rooms was the cutoff point for this project. They also found that "The total area of the site is approximately 90,000 square feet with a 60,000-square-foot buildable area. Reportedly the site will be able to accommodate a high-rise tower of 20 floors or more". If you want to read the report go to http://publicworks.cuyahogacounty.us/ About a third of the way down the page you will see Hotel Market Study. Click on that for the PDF. I wanted to post the pic below so we can refer to it as more news comes out about the project. If you look at the site, I believe the Hotel will occupy almost the same footprint as the county admin. If they stay within the Burnham guidelines the front of the building should be flush with the MedMart. From there it can reach the edges on the north and west side, with most likely a garage entrance off of Ontario between the southern edge and the MedMart. If you consider the avg. hotel room to be 350sq.ft. with about 25 rooms per floor, that's about 9000sqft. Add bout another 4000 sq.ft. per floor for common area, hallways, elevators, maintenance rooms you are at 13000 sqft per floor. If you have 3-4 floors for above grade parking and the rooms on top of that, I am guessing 24-28 floors for the hotel portion plus the garage. So with all that it will probably be about 12 stories. Lol.
July 26, 201311 yr The June 14, 2011 Medical Mart and Convention Center presentation to the county council shows the available footprint area as well as the connection areas to the facilities. http://council.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_council/en-US/20110614_MedMartPresentation.pdf The development area is 60,200 sf. This would take into account the setback along Lakeside Ave. to match the setback defined by Public Auditorium .
July 26, 201311 yr ^Interesting....I had presumed the county would also try to match the MM's set back from Ontario, but that presentation only highlights the setback from Lakeside.
July 26, 201311 yr Interesting report--thanks for posting. Some questions: "As has downtown Cleveland in general, the lodging market in downtown Cleveland has experienced many changes in recent years. Some of these changes include: • The closing of the 472-room Crowne Plaza in October 2011 for conversion to a Westin Hotel; • The effective closure of the 252-unit Embassy Suites Hotel in November 2012 for use by Ernst & Young as a training facility; and, • The effective removal of the 205-room Ritz-Carlton Hotel from the transient room supply beginning in May 2012 for primary use of Harrah’s Horseshoe Casino to house its premium players. Thus, in recent months, some 929 rooms were effectively removed from the downtown transient supply, some 457 of which likely on a long-term basis....." Bullet 2---Embassy Suites closed for an E&Y training facility? that's why? I had never heard that before---is that true? Bullet 3--This bullet makes it seem like the Ritz is off the public market? Is that true? Can folks NOT going to the casino or having anything to do with the casino book a room? The above is from Page IV-3 of the report.
July 26, 201311 yr ^Interesting....I had presumed the county would also try to match the MM's set back from Ontario, but that presentation only highlights the setback from Lakeside. I presume they will build out to Ontario, If The Global Center is a huge success and in they would need to expand they could always add on towards Ontario. The Hotel would land lock any further expansion north.
July 26, 201311 yr The Ernst & Young bullet point is not true. The EY training facility is housed in the EY Tower (aka FEB building)..
July 26, 201311 yr And the Embassy Suites was closed so it could be converted to apartments (as it was originally built for): http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/10/kd_group_will_close_embassy_su.html
July 26, 201311 yr The Ernst & Young bullet point is not true. The EY training facility is housed in the EY Tower (aka FEB building).. At the time of the closing of the ES, the EY training center was moved to the ES event space.
July 26, 201311 yr The Ritz only puts aside a certain number of rooms for casino guests. The Ritz is available tonight on hotels.com for $479.
July 26, 201311 yr The Ritz only puts aside a certain number of rooms for casino guests. The Ritz is available tonight on hotels.com for $479. And that's how you know there isn't many rooms for the general public. $479 on hotels.com. A good thing mind you, I love seeing expensive Cleveland hotels!
August 5, 201311 yr RFQ Released, going Design/Build which means CooperCarry will design and image and preliminary plans then the design/build team will refine everything for construction. PUBLIC NOTICE REQUEST FOR QUALIFICATIONS (RFQ #28353) The Cuyahoga County Department of Public Works is soliciting statements of qualifications from firms interested in providing Design-Build Services for a hotel in downtown Cleveland, Ohio to accompany the Cleveland Convention Center and Global Center for Health Innovation. A pre-proposal conference will be held August 13, 2013 at 9:30 AM EST at the County Administration Building, 4th floor conference room, 1219 Ontario Street, Cleveland, Ohio 44113. Participants may attend the conference by calling in, and are not required to be present in person. The call-in number is 888-839-7343, access code 2165665548. Proposers are not required to attend, but are encouraged to do so. The County will answer questions and provide additional project information during the pre-proposal conference. Copies of the proposal specifications are available from the Office of Procurement and Diversity. Specifications will not be made available at the conference.
August 5, 201311 yr I really hope they don't use red brick in their hotel design. I know they probably aren't going to design it in a neoclassical style, but they should at least attempt to respect the Group Plan.
August 5, 201311 yr I really hope they don't use red brick in their hotel design. I know they probably aren't going to design it in a neoclassical style, but they should at least attempt to respect the Group Plan. I'm hoping for something more modern, with some bold colors. Please no more beige!
August 5, 201311 yr I really hope they don't use red brick in their hotel design. I know they probably aren't going to design it in a neoclassical style, but they should at least attempt to respect the Group Plan. I'm hoping for something more modern, with some bold colors. Please no more beige! I agree with this statement 99% of the time. But the Group Plan is something truly special in Cleveland, and I think it should be respected. Not many cities can say they were the focus of a large-scale redevelopment plan by Daniel Burnham! If I was an eccentric billionaire, I'd buy up all that land and extend the mall to the lakefront and surround it with neoclassical buildings. But alas, I am a poor college intern.
August 5, 201311 yr Not many cities can say they were the focus of a large-scale redevelopment plan by Daniel Burnham No offense to Mr. Burnham, but why is this such a great thing? I agree with those above who want modern and some color!
August 5, 201311 yr I really hope they don't use red brick in their hotel design. I know they probably aren't going to design it in a neoclassical style, but they should at least attempt to respect the Group Plan. I'm hoping for something more modern, with some bold colors. Please no more beige! I agree with this statement 99% of the time. But the Group Plan is something truly special in Cleveland, and I think it should be respected. Not many cities can say they were the focus of a large-scale redevelopment plan by Daniel Burnham! If I was an eccentric billionaire, I'd buy up all that land and extend the mall to the lakefront and surround it with neoclassical buildings. But alas, I am a poor college intern. I'm poor too so I also have eccentric billionaire plans ha ha. If you look at old postcards etc. from the Great Lakes Exposition, THAT'S the Lakefront I would love! Art Deco prominence worthy of an historic and powerful city like Cleveland. But since that ship has sailed, I actually dig the new stuff ie Rock Hall and GLSC. Plus the Global Center has already kinda broken the traditional mold. When viewed from the lake Cleveland looks new and exciting to me. There are lots of cities in Northern Europe that mix modern/color with deference to the old stuff quite well. Lets be like that. Glancing through the CooperCarry stuff it's anyone's guess what's gonna happen with the hotel.
August 6, 201311 yr Not many cities can say they were the focus of a large-scale redevelopment plan by Daniel Burnham No offense to Mr. Burnham, but why is this such a great thing? I agree with those above who want modern and some color! Bring on the color! Also a building that lights up vividly at night.
August 6, 201311 yr I guess I'm just skeptical about a very modern design because of how underwhelming CooperCarry's portfolio is. I'd love to be surprised though!
August 6, 201311 yr Cleveland Convention Center Hotel Open House Share your vision and thoughts for this important new development in Cleveland. Meet representatives from Cooper Carry, Architects for the new Convention Center Hotel. Thursday, August 8, 2013 1:30 PM - 3:00PM Cleveland Public Library Louis Stokes Wing, Room 218 325 Superior Ave E Cleveland, OH 44114 Please register for the event - [email protected] ALL ARE WELCOME Representatives from Cooper Carry want to hear from Clevelanders as they begin the design process for this exciting new hotel development in Cleveland. The timeline for construction is ambitious. It's important that Greater Clevelanders have an opportunity to share their vision for the project.
August 6, 201311 yr ^wow...what an opportunity for all the "color" advocates. Make sure you bring your paint chips :wink:
August 6, 201311 yr Cleveland Convention Center Hotel Open House Share your vision and thoughts for this important new development in Cleveland. Meet representatives from Cooper Carry, Architects for the new Convention Center Hotel. Thursday, August 8, 2013 1:30 PM - 3:00PM Cleveland Public Library Louis Stokes Wing, Room 218 325 Superior Ave E Cleveland, OH 44114 Please register for the event - [email protected] ALL ARE WELCOME Representatives from Cooper Carry want to hear from Clevelanders as they begin the design process for this exciting new hotel development in Cleveland. The timeline for construction is ambitious. It's important that Greater Clevelanders have an opportunity to share their vision for the project. Thursday from 1:30 - 3:00PM ? "All are welcome" (who don't have a job)
August 7, 201311 yr ^Agree. its either cluelessness or intentional. If they REALLY wanted broad input, they'd hold two sessions--one during the day and one in the evening.
August 7, 201311 yr Hey guys, some of you are really schooled on the Burnham, City Beautiful Plan. What would a modern day structure look like if it stayed true to the plan? How would you incorporate height? could you use glass and steel and stay true? I would assume building neo-classical today would cost a fortune.
August 7, 201311 yr Hey guys, some of you are really schooled on the Burnham, City Beautiful Plan. What would a modern day structure look like if it stayed true to the plan? How would you incorporate height? could you use glass and steel and stay true? I would assume building neo-classical today would cost a fortune. This is a rendering of the original plan (a train station was supposed to be built at the northern end of the mall) The plan didn't call for any tall buildings (but this was also before skyscrapers really existed). Building an actual neo-classical building might be expensive, but it's possible to build a postmodern design influenced by the neo-classical style.
August 7, 201311 yr Thursday from 1:30 - 3:00PM ? "All are welcome" (who don't have a job) Agreed, and I know some LAND people read the forum. The scheduling sends a terrible message, intentional or not. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
August 7, 201311 yr This website provides a very informative view/guidelines from The Burnham Plan. http://groupplan.dhellison.com/
August 8, 201311 yr I am not sure if this has been said before. From WKYC: "And six big-name hotel chains vying to operate the facility made their pitch to key players Tuesday and Wednesday. "We're looking for an operator that gives us a four-star hotel ... someone who can give us that convention hotel experience," said project leader and lawyer Jeff Appelbaum. The Cooper Carry design team should be formally approved by County Council next week. And the selection of hotel operator and building contractor are being timed to coincide." Isn't the Ritz currently the only 4 star property downtown? This is certainly good news!
August 8, 201311 yr I am not sure if this has been said before. From WKYC: "And six big-name hotel chains vying to operate the facility made their pitch to key players Tuesday and Wednesday. "We're looking for an operator that gives us a four-star hotel ... someone who can give us that convention hotel experience," said project leader and lawyer Jeff Appelbaum. The Cooper Carry design team should be formally approved by County Council next week. And the selection of hotel operator and building contractor are being timed to coincide." Isn't the Ritz currently the only 4 star property downtown? This is certainly good news! Link?
August 8, 201311 yr I am not sure if this has been said before. From WKYC: "And six big-name hotel chains vying to operate the facility made their pitch to key players Tuesday and Wednesday. "We're looking for an operator that gives us a four-star hotel ... someone who can give us that convention hotel experience," said project leader and lawyer Jeff Appelbaum. The Cooper Carry design team should be formally approved by County Council next week. And the selection of hotel operator and building contractor are being timed to coincide." Isn't the Ritz currently the only 4 star property downtown? This is certainly good news! Link? Sorry http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/309577/3/Cleveland-Fast-tracked-hotel-planners-want-input
August 8, 201311 yr I am not sure if this has been said before. From WKYC: "And six big-name hotel chains vying to operate the facility made their pitch to key players Tuesday and Wednesday. "We're looking for an operator that gives us a four-star hotel ... someone who can give us that convention hotel experience," said project leader and lawyer Jeff Appelbaum. The Cooper Carry design team should be formally approved by County Council next week. And the selection of hotel operator and building contractor are being timed to coincide." Isn't the Ritz currently the only 4 star property downtown? This is certainly good news! Link? Sorry http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/309577/3/Cleveland-Fast-tracked-hotel-planners-want-input Thank you im still discouraged by that 19 story number but since it is by some low rise buildings it should be fine. Density in the skyline would be great but being surrounded new fresh high rises while roaming the area will suffice.
August 8, 201311 yr If it turns out to be 19 stories, that would probably be driven by the site's large footprint. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 8, 201311 yr I am not sure if this has been said before. From WKYC: "And six big-name hotel chains vying to operate the facility made their pitch to key players Tuesday and Wednesday. "We're looking for an operator that gives us a four-star hotel ... someone who can give us that convention hotel experience," said project leader and lawyer Jeff Appelbaum. The Cooper Carry design team should be formally approved by County Council next week. And the selection of hotel operator and building contractor are being timed to coincide." Isn't the Ritz currently the only 4 star property downtown? This is certainly good news! Link? Sorry http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/309577/3/Cleveland-Fast-tracked-hotel-planners-want-input Thank you im still discouraged by that 19 story number but since it is by some low rise buildings it should be fine. Density in the skyline would be great but being surrounded new fresh high rises while roaming the area will suffice. "estimated to be 650 rooms and 19 stories." I'm not sure how they can get 650 rooms into that small foot print unless they will be really small rooms.
August 8, 201311 yr I'm not sure how they can get 650 rooms into that small foot print unless they will be really small rooms. Small? The footprint measures 255 feet by 275 feet (not including sidewalks, alleys/accessways, etc around the perimeter of the property). That's 70,125 square feet or 1.6 acres! Standard hotel rooms are usually 300-400 square feet and suites at 600-700 square feet. So even with hallways, service areas, and stairwells/elevators/lobbies, we're talking 160-180 rooms per floor and about 90 suites per floor -- if there's no building setbacks. I'm sure there will be building setbacks, otherwise this hotel could fit 650 rooms with all the necessary support facilities, meeting rooms and amenities in a 10-story building. That's how big this site's footprint is. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 8, 201311 yr I'm not sure how they can get 650 rooms into that small foot print unless they will be really small rooms. Small? The footprint measures 255 feet by 275 feet (not including sidewalks, alleys/accessways, etc around the perimeter of the property). That's 70,125 square feet or 1.6 acres! Standard hotel rooms are usually 300-400 square feet and suites at 600-700 square feet. So even with hallways, service areas, and stairwells/elevators/lobbies, we're talking 160-180 rooms per floor and about 90 suites per floor -- if there's no building setbacks. I'm sure there will be building setbacks, otherwise this hotel could fit 650 rooms with all the necessary support facilities, meeting rooms and amenities in a 10-story building. That's how big this site's footprint is. I know that is speculative, but I'll try to reserve comment about height, and number of room until we have something concrete. I'm having a hard time visualizing this. As I can tell where the western border of the hotel will be.
August 8, 201311 yr Like I said, my example above assumes no setbacks. And I'm sure there will be. So my point is that the property is large enough that, if only half of it was built upon and standard-sized rooms were included, 650 rooms could easily fit into a 19-story building. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 8, 201311 yr Anyone planning to attend this afternoon? Meet representatives from Cooper Carry, Architects for the new Convention Center Hotel. Thursday, August 8, 2013 1:30 PM - 3:00PM Cleveland Public Library Louis Stokes Wing, Room 218 325 Superior Ave E
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