I had not previously seen the rendering in this story...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_city_council_passes.html#incart_m-rpt-2

So reading the story and seeing them mention the Huntington garage and a nearby lot for parking I'm guessin the underground parking isn't feasible?

^Good question.  Didnt the project team say they'd have a decision on that soon when they revealed the initial designs a couple weeks ago?

^yes. it was one day after the public presentation. -- so, around 3-4 wks ago.

So the Port Authority will own the land on which the hotel will sit. PA will lease the land to the County.

 

"The city also agrees to play the middle-man in the transfer of the property from the county to the Port Authority, because under state law, neither the city nor county is permitted to own a hotel. Under the agreement, the port will lease the property back to the county."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_city_council_passes.html#incart_m-rpt-2

The parking issue will likely motivate the search for new funding for the Lakefront Transportation Center...

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20131215/SUB1/312159977

 

Here's a way to get those funds...

http://allaboardohio.org/2013/11/13/ohios-4-busiest-stations

I don't understand how one builds a hotel with no attached parking.  Wouldn't money be  better spent on removing height to pay for the parking needed?

I don't understand how one builds a hotel with no attached parking.  Wouldn't money be  better spent on removing height to pay for the parking needed?

 

You don't need attached parking.  It's called valet parking.  You pull-up to the entrance.  The staff takes your bags, the valet takes your car to a nearby garage and you walk to the front desk and check-in.

Many companies will only reimburse employees for self-park. 

Families traveling together often prefer self-park too. - anyway, the fastest retrieval for valet parked cars are those that are right there, and not across the street and a block away, tucked behind a giant government building.

 

Ever leave something in your car? Are you going to ask valet to get it for you?

 

Not everybody likes valet service. It's not often the slate is wiped clean for new construction downtown. The county HQ and now the hotel are wasted opportunities for built in parking. Which only increases demand at nearby lots and garages.

 

I agree with dave68. Removing height for parking seems like a no brainer. A ridiculous desire for height at the expense of usability - form over function.

Which only increases demand at nearby lots and garages.

 

 

Just look at the parking costs for the warehouse district. Those lots cost more than lots and even garages on the eastern edge of downtown. I still think a redo of public square should place a parking garage under the whole square. This would lower demand for those warehouse district lots greatly.

Surface parking exists in a central business district because demand for more productive uses is so low (thus property values are so low so that surface parking becomes cost-effective) and because there is a lack of alternatives to driving downtown (which also limits the desirability of downtown for more productive uses). Parking structures help increase density, but not as much as pedestrianism and public transit do. But they can be a bridge to creating more pedestrianism and public transit.

I'm not saying that lack of on-site parking is commonplace in downtown CLE hotels - but in recent and upcoming stays (with a car) in downtowns like SFO, NYC, ORD - the option has been either mandatory valet - or find your own self-park - usually several blocks away, just like this will be...

The entrance to to the Huntington garage is right across the street from the Hotel...

^Sounds like County Council doesn't think the Huntington Garage can be counted on to serve the hotel.

 

“I can tell you right now, Huntington is not the answer; for 20 years it's been leaking from the roof to the third- floor basement,” said councilman Michael Gallagher. “The big plan here should be a big parking place attached by a walkway to the north of the (railroad) tracks.”

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20131215/SUB1/312159977#

 

 

eyehrtfood and MD88PILOT are right that mandatory valet or find-your-own is pretty normal in big cities, but I bet a lot of our visitors will find it annoying. Unclear how much that will really affect the hotel's marketability, though.

So Cleveland will now have a convention center and hotel without any parking assigned to the facilities. Smart planning.  Mandatory valet parking hmmm. What a great idea for a public property.

The Hyatt at the Arcade is an example of a valet only Cleveland hotel. If you wish to self park, they will suggest nearby garages. Goes to show, it's not unheard of.

 

There are also numerous hotels with underground parking garages that are valet parking only.  Valet parking is quite common.

I never said valet parking isn't an option.  I find it poor planning in this entire convention center/global center/convention hotel not a single parking space was added. 

^The convention center has parking under the mall---its been there for decades.

 

There is parking under Mall A for Key center.  I don't think there is any parking under the convention center.

There is no parking under the convention center, that is the Key Garage, and it's not that big. On a bad weather day, it's overflowing.

 

Huntington Garage is not a good garage, narrow spaces, dark, wet, and even with the county gone I can't imagine it'll have enough spaces. Needs serious work, even if the customers themselves are never going to set foot inside. Mandatory valet is fine, I guess, but the property should really have attached parking - it's already at a premium in that area. Guess that's not possible now. Really, downtown needs to trade a couple surface lots for a serious parking structure/new building with extra parking.

Of all the issues facing downtown (and the limited resources to throw at them), parking for the convention center hotel rates about number 100 on my list.

^ Id say the same thing about the medical mart, convention center, and convention center hotel but we paid for all of those. If we are going to do it we should at least do it right.

 

Id rather have all that money be spent on something else but it wasn't. Parking needs to be figured out before building a hotel with public funds.

I cannot even understand the reasoning for having parking to begin with. Conventioneers are coming from out of town, right? Presumably via Hopkins where they may catch a train, or cab it up downtown.  I know for fact of one other City who's convention center has no parking at all: San Fran's Moscone Center. They seem to function just fine.

 

Perhaps this will spur one of the ground parking lot owners to step up and build something there instead.

Perhaps this will spur one of the ground parking lot owners to step up and build something there instead.

 

Or to demolish a nearby building like the Standard Building for a surface lot!  :evil:

Willard Park Garage - 1600 spaces

Huntington Park Garage - 1000 spaces

Memorial Plaza Garage - 985 spaces

 

That is a total of 3,585 parking spaces directly adjacent to the convention center.

 

I understand that there is a huge demand for parking near key tower during the day, so memorial plaza is probably off the table, but how used are the Willard Park Garage and Huntington Park Garage, both of which are massive?

 

 

^Because the garage attached to 113 St. Clair was demolished for the Med Mart, the Huntington is really the only garage that serves the Justice Center (there is a tunnel which runs under Lakeside) and old county courthouse.  It is usually fairly full.  I fear that dedicating spaces in the Huntington to the hotel is going to have the effect of making the WHD surface lots that much more profitable.

 

Willard is used, obviously, for City Hall and is also usually fairly full.  It is rare that either Willard or Huntington are at max capacity, but finding a spot can be difficult if you get there at the wrong time.  There is a ton of ingress/egress from both garages throughout the day.

So did the county pay 100% of $725 million it cost to build the Convention Center, Medical Mart, and Hotel?

 

Crocker Park cost $480 million. I think a large mixed use development, like Crocker Park, on the Warehouse District lots would have been a better investment.

Just a reminder that the immediate issue is that the hotel operator requires some kind of reliable parking arrangement, not some generalized b!tching about downtown parking or CC parking.  The county administration thought the Huntington Garage would work but the county council has so far nixed it.  We'll have to wait till Appelbaum comes back with Plan B to know how much of an issue this really is, but if the City (which I believe owns the Williard Park garage) and whoever controls the spaces under Mall A don't play ball, it means the county has to find the money to repair Huntington (which may have to happen anyway) or contribute to the hamster tube over the tracks.

 

So did the county pay 100% of $725 million it cost to build the Convention Center, Medical Mart, and Hotel?

 

Crocker Park cost $480 million. I think a large mixed use development, like Crocker Park, on the Warehouse District lots would have been a better investment.

 

This is mostly off topic for this thread, but I've been meaning to start a new one on this exact topic and have only laziness to blame. We need a general "is this really where we want our public dollars spent?" topic. I think we're far too deferential to our leaders at times.

I definitely understand the argument that in large cities valet is the option for hotels and people will walk for self park or take taxis, but Cleveland is a mid-sized city and our chief competition for conventions and visitors will not be NYC and SF, but more Pittsburgh and St. Louis, Cincinnati etc.  When convention planners compare Cleveland to those cities I am sure parking will be an issue.  I may be willing to walk but I realize not every conventioneer is.  Plus right now the walk to our Convention Center and hotel is not a fun one.  There not in the middle of east 4, or the waterfront or warehouse district...there a few blocks away from all these pedestrian friendly zones, with a jail separating them from the warehouse district. 

 

I'm not being down but I'm trying to be realistic and say our assets have to appeal to a broad range of people.  I can see conventioneers complaining about parking, and more importantly convention planners questioning parking, especially compared with peer cities.  Especially if the CC attracts a lot of regional conferences people will drive to from cities within a few hundred miles.  I would definitely sacrifice a few levels of height for a parking solution that helps the CC and hotel be more competitive.

I definitely understand the argument that in large cities valet is the option for hotels and people will walk for self park or take taxis, but Cleveland is a mid-sized city and our chief competition for conventions and visitors will not be NYC and SF, but more Pittsburgh and St. Louis, Cincinnati etc.  When convention planners compare Cleveland to those cities I am sure parking will be an issue.  I may be willing to walk but I realize not every conventioneer is.  Plus right now the walk to our Convention Center and hotel is not a fun one.  There not in the middle of east 4, or the waterfront or warehouse district...there a few blocks away from all these pedestrian friendly zones, with a jail separating them from the warehouse district. 

 

I'm not being down but I'm trying to be realistic and say our assets have to appeal to a broad range of people.  I can see conventioneers complaining about parking, and more importantly convention planners questioning parking, especially compared with peer cities.  Especially if the CC attracts a lot of regional conferences people will drive to from cities within a few hundred miles.  I would definitely sacrifice a few levels of height for a parking solution that helps the CC and hotel be more competitive.

 

Agree 100%.  Of course we don't have data, but my guess would be that 60-70% of shows booked in the convention center would be regional clientale.  Why not make it right given the business we are going to attract?  Not everyone likes dealing with valets, especially if you're coming and going, and every time they get your car they have their hand out for a tip.    There should be a reasonable amount of self parking available.

I definitely understand the argument that in large cities valet is the option for hotels and people will walk for self park or take taxis, but Cleveland is a mid-sized city and our chief competition for conventions and visitors will not be NYC and SF, but more Pittsburgh and St. Louis, Cincinnati etc.  When convention planners compare Cleveland to those cities I am sure parking will be an issue.  I may be willing to walk but I realize not every conventioneer is.  Plus right now the walk to our Convention Center and hotel is not a fun one.  There not in the middle of east 4, or the waterfront or warehouse district...there a few blocks away from all these pedestrian friendly zones, with a jail separating them from the warehouse district. 

 

I'm not being down but I'm trying to be realistic and say our assets have to appeal to a broad range of people.  I can see conventioneers complaining about parking, and more importantly convention planners questioning parking, especially compared with peer cities.  Especially if the CC attracts a lot of regional conferences people will drive to from cities within a few hundred miles.  I would definitely sacrifice a few levels of height for a parking solution that helps the CC and hotel be more competitive.

Very well said.  Many times, conventions are judged by conveniences for the conventioneer...

To me this parking discussion is a non-issue. I believe the current solution will be to set aside spaces at Willard. And yes that garage is in need of repair so hopefully this will speed up the work that needed to be done anyway. When the casino opened everyone bitched and complained when RockGaming said they wanted a garage attached to the venue. Everyone feared that nobody was going to walk outside through the streets. Now everybody wants parking attached to the hotel so nobody has to go outside. Doesn't make any sense. There will be adequate parking available. Hopefully within the next 3-5 years a garage will be planned across the tracks as part of a larger development.

forgive my ignorance, but are regional conventions usually held on weekdays or weekends?

To me this parking discussion is a non-issue. I believe the current solution will be to set aside spaces at Willard. And yes that garage is in need of repair so hopefully this will speed up the work that needed to be done anyway. When the casino opened everyone bitched and complained when RockGaming said they wanted a garage attached to the venue. Everyone feared that nobody was going to walk outside through the streets. Now everybody wants parking attached to the hotel so nobody has to go outside. Doesn't make any sense. There will be adequate parking available. Hopefully within the next 3-5 years a garage will be planned across the tracks as part of a larger development.

you are comparing apples to oranges.  Nobody complained about the need for a parking structure for The Horseshoe Casino. The complaint was much to do with a connected skywalk and the removal of historic structures.  With regards to a Convention Center Hotel and the facilities funded by The County nobody has planned any additional park for the facilities other than a loading dock for convention and later hotel use.  How is parking an afterthought?  At least the old convention center provided connected parking under Mall B.  A hotel with an attached garage sure seems a revenue maker and added bonus for the winter weather.  I don't understand how someone can think a new intermodal parking structure behind City Hall is a great location for guest parking of the hotel. 

^^Generally weekdays

***Paging KJP***

 

Feasibility wise:  Could you do a North Coast transportation center, coupled with a parking garage, magically coupled with a train that could go from the Airport to the NCTC without changing at TC?  Could it be done without blocking the views from the CC ballrooms?

How much would that all cost?

***Paging KJP***

 

Feasibility wise:  Could you do a North Coast transportation center, coupled with a parking garage, magically coupled with a train that could go from the Airport to the NCTC without changing at TC?  Could it be done without blocking the views from the CC ballrooms?

How much would that all cost?

 

Who's beeping me? Oh, Punch. How ya doin'?

 

Yes, on everything but the train from the Airport to NCTC without a change of trains. The airport station has a high-level platform used by heavy-rail Tokyu cars. The Waterfront Line and its stations have low-level platform used by light-rail Breda cars which can take the sharp turns. The Tokyu cars cannot.

 

The parking deck of NCTC would partially block views from the convention center ballrooms. But the parking won't be much higher than the ballroom windows so you will still be able to see the stadium, rock hall, etc.

 

Cost? All Aboard Ohio estimates that a truly intermodal North Coast Transportation Center with parking, walkways, new Amtrak station, supportive track/platform infrastructure, bus station for Greyhound, Megabus, Laketran, Akron Metro RTA, Portage County/KSU RTA, Stark County/Canton RTA all routed through there and serving up to 1,500 passengers a day or about 500,000 passengers per year would cost approximately $56 million.

^Given this price KJP states above I don't know why this isn't a higher and more visible priority.  That seems like a small price for a facility that would accomplish all of those transportation goals WHILE also bridging downtown with the lakefront.

^Given this price KJP states above I don't know why this isn't a higher and more visible priority.  That seems like a small price for a facility that would accomplish all of those transportation goals WHILE also bridging downtown with the lakefront.

 

What's even more confusing is that the city's version of this facility would cost $50 million yet only incorporate parking for cars, tour buses, and bikes. The other modes have yet to be included in the city's plans. But we're trying to convince them to widen the scope of their plan to add a little bit more investment to increase the facility's usefulness many-fold, and increase the likelihood the feds will fund it.

Barricades going up today... Means the buildings coming down!

Here's another rendering that I haven't seen posted here.

 

^ probably my favorite rendering. it gives promise to provide a little splash of much needed color to our mostly gray-beige (grayge?) skyline.

^I would agree, but the building never turns out as colorful as it is in the rendering.

Sure is a shame that this public-private partnership isn't being utilized to add another 10-15 stories of condos on top.   

wasn't demolition suppose to start in December and does anyone know when its suppose to start? im guessing it will start soon because the barricades are up.

wasn't demolition suppose to start in December and does anyone know when its suppose to start? im guessing it will start soon because the barricades are up.

 

As per the usual here, when something is available it will be posted.  Sit tight.

wasn't demolition suppose to start in December and does anyone know when its suppose to start? im guessing it will start soon because the barricades are up.

 

Construction has started. The old admin building is currently undergoing abatement, and once that's complete, demolition and excavation will commence.

From a previous article...

 

"Cuyahoga County government and general contractor Turner Construction Co. had hoped to build the hotel atop what is called a mat foundation, which would have provided sufficient depth below grade for two levels of parking on top of a steel-reinforced concrete pad several yards deep. But the complex geology of downtown Cleveland is forcing the county to use a deep foundation technique that drives supports 200 feet below ground.

 

Project adviser Jeffrey Appelbaum told Cuyahoga County Council on Dec. 3 that the more complicated foundation will add $5 million to $7 million to its cost, but will not extend the completion date of the hotel beyond its June 2016 target or increase the projected cost of construction. He said the total cost of the hotel won't rise because the original budget anticipated the possibility of the more expensive foundation. "

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20131215/SUB1/312159977#

 

 

So it only costs an additional $5 million to $7 million to build using the deep foundation technique instead of using a mat foundation? That doesn't seem like that much money when you put it into perspective of overall building costs. The excuse that we have bad land for skyscrapers doesn't seem like a valid argument for the reason we don't have taller buildings. Its most likely purely demand/economics.

Since they are going to have the more elaborate foundation, they might as well build higher too!

 

I know, that would add to the cost which is why that is not going to happen.

 

I agree with the assessment of above of not have many tall buildings due to demand/economics.  It is just too difficult to fill up the office space for a taller building in this market unless there is a major tenant signed up ahead of time.  Both of the two newer tall buildings (BP and Key Bank) had these tenants committed to the space before they were built.  So, buildings between 20 and 25 stories seem to be the sweet spot for Cleveland.